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Does Dark Matter Come From Black Holes Formed Before the Big Bang? (livescience.com) 104

"The Big Bang may not have been the beginning of the universe," writes LiveScience, citing "a theory of cosmology that suggests the universe can 'bounce' between phases of contraction and expansion."

The recent study suggests that dark matter could be composed of black holes formed before the Big Bang, during a transition from the universe's last contraction to the current expansion phase... In the new study, researchers explored a scenario where dark matter consists of primordial black holes formed from density fluctuations that occurred during the universe's last contraction phase, not long before the period of expansion that we observe now. They published their findings in June in the Journal of Cosmology and Astroparticle Physics ... In this "bouncing" cosmology, the universe contracted to a size about 50 orders of magnitude smaller than it is today. After the rebound, photons and other particles were born, marking the Big Bang. Near the rebound, the matter density was so high that small black holes formed from quantum fluctuations in the matter's density, making them viable candidates for dark matter.

"Small primordial black holes can be produced during the very early stages of the universe, and if they are not too small, their decay due to Hawking radiation [a hypothetical phenomenon of black holes emitting particles due to quantum effects] will not be efficient enough to get rid of them, so they would still be around now," Patrick Peter, director of research at the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS), who was not involved in the study, told Live Science in an email. "Weighing more or less the mass of an asteroid, they could contribute to dark matter, or even solve this issue altogether."

The scientists' calculations show that this universe mode's properties, such as the curvature of space and the microwave background, match current observations, supporting their hypothesis.

"If this hypothesis holds, the gravitational waves generated during the black hole formation process might be detectable by future gravitational wave observatories, providing a way to confirm this dark matter generation scenario..."
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Does Dark Matter Come From Black Holes Formed Before the Big Bang?

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  • AFAICS while the standard model has made some predictions, cosmology can't really lay claim to that. Cosmology seems to me a craft of fitting. Big bang was to fit red shift, inflaton/inflation was to fit CMB, dark matter was to fit galaxy rotation, dark energy was to fit accelerating expansion.

    If you are going to fit something, just fit an oscillating universe ... it's more aesthetically pleasing.

    • PS. I suggest Darker Energy to make the universe contract again against the force of Dark Energy.

    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      " standard model has made some predictions, cosmology can't really lay claim to that"

      Wrong, Cosmology does have its standard model, it is called, get this, the Standard Model of Cosmology. And if you think the particle and field standard model is some sort of Holy Document, it is merely a collection of cobbled together mathematics that seems consistent (that we know). It was the craft of fitting what we could see in experiments with mathematics that at least did not contradict it and seemed produce, in inst

      • The math was mostly invented after the justification for it ... it's a fit, not a prediction. One discarded parameter in general relativity being dis-discarded is not really a prediction.

        • by HiThere ( 15173 )

          This is semantic quibbling.

          Whether it's a prediction or not depends on which decade you're in. Certainly when Einstein introduced lambda it was curve-fitting. After he removed it, it became a discarded prediction. So when it's reinserted it's a prediction.

          They're basically the same thing looked at from different perspectives. If you have a bunch of data and you PREDICT that an equation will match it, then you are testing your prediction. If you adjust it slightly to better fit the data, then you're cur

    • AFAICS while the standard model has made some predictions, cosmology can't really lay claim to that. Cosmology seems to me a craft of fitting. Big bang was to fit red shift,

      The big bang theory had a large number of consequences that later measurements showed correct, in particular, the cosmic microwave background is an observable consequence of the big bang, and nucleosynthesis predicts the relative abundance of the light elements which were synthesized in the big bang. https://phys.libretexts.org/Co... [libretexts.org]

      inflaton/inflation was to fit CMB, dark matter was to fit galaxy rotation, dark energy was to fit accelerating expansion.

      Well, dark matter is a pretty straightforward hypothesis: if trajectories we observe can't be fully explained by the gravitational effects of the stuff we see, it may be due to

      • Fortunately big bang is enough to explain nucleosynthesis all by its lonesome, that doesn't require a singularity.

        Singularity and CMB on the other hand required something entirely new to make it fit, inflation, which doesn't just roll out of general relativity and the big bang. The theory in the article tries to fit something other than inflation and uses dark matter as justification. Given the stretch which inflation clearly is, it might pass Occam's Razor as well or even better if it gets popular (unlikel

        • by Geoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) on Sunday September 01, 2024 @12:33PM (#64753620) Homepage

          The existence of Cosmic Microwave Background is a consequence of the big bang. The average temperature of the CMB is a prediction that can be calculated from the big bang. The extraordinary uniformity of the average temperature at cosmologically-large distances across the sky, however, is not a prediction of the big bang, and is what inflation was proposed to account for. The even smaller deviations from complete uniformity of temperature is a measurement that may tell us which theory of inflation to look at.

          Plausibly there might be some alternate theory than inflation to explain the uniformity of the CMB, but so far none have been hypothesized.

  • Or just publish or perish untestable "pass whatever you're smoking"?

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      Damn, yer on to us. Those quantum theories we did back in the aughts and 1910s? Complete bunk, and they we not testable. Yet we somehow persisted and grew more exquisite untestable theories and then we ran into experimental evidence supporting them. Why did we collect that evidence? We were looking for the artifacts the theories said should be there. The nerve of those physicists publishing their "untestable" theories.

  • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Sunday September 01, 2024 @06:40AM (#64753010)

    Science says that there is a state early in the big bang, where we have no clue what happened before. Why is it that so many people cannot deal with the unknown?

    • Cosmology is not a science, it's a sport. Singularity has been winning for a while, but nothing lasts forever.

    • The pursuit of science is literally the quest to discover the unknown. Whenever something is unknown, and we figure out that we don't know it, there is something inside us humans that is drawn to this. It's an irresistible force driving us to study, to learn, to theorize, until we have put that missing piece of the puzzle in its place. This is why the study of science exists...the need to *know*.

      • by gweihir ( 88907 )

        Well, yes. But when you actually follow the scientific way, you do not just fill in things to fake-"know". (That approach is called "belief" and often comes in the form or religion and ersatz-religion.) Here, "The big Bang was the start" is a non-scientific and in fact anti-science statement, as it simply is a claim of truth without evidence. It is _very_ important to always understand the areas where we do not (hopefully "no yet") know.

        • Well, yes. But when you actually follow the scientific way, you do not just fill in things to fake-"know". (That approach is called "belief" and often comes in the form or religion and ersatz-religion.) Here, "The big Bang was the start" is a non-scientific and in fact anti-science statement, as it simply is a claim of truth without evidence.

          There is plenty of very convincing evidence for the big bang; it's not at all "non scientific", but to the contrary, is well supported by evidence.

          Big bang cosmology really only goes back to the era of nucleosynthesis (the "First three minutes," to use the phrase in the book of that title.) You may be thinking of the part before that. Eventually, going backwards, you get to the era of the quark-gluon plasma, and before that the density where quantum gravity needs to be taken into account, and we don't have

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      Unless you can prove that there's no way to know, then your question needs refinement. And proving that is extremely difficult.

      OTOH, a lot of people *do* find it difficult to accept that there are a bunch of things we are uncertain about. That's definitely a true observation.

      • by gweihir ( 88907 )

        Oh, I am not advocating to stop looking. Looking, modelling and trying to understand is important. But you always need to be clear on what you actually know and what not or Science goes out the window.

        OTOH, a lot of people *do* find it difficult to accept that there are a bunch of things we are uncertain about. That's definitely a true observation.

        And you are already using the weakened version here. There are plenty of things we do not know anything (!) about. Personally, I do not understand the stance of those people that cannot deal. I never had any issues with the unknown. To me it always was a case of "venture there if interested or there is a need,

    • The standard model suggests that time itself began with the Big Bang. https://philsci-archive.pitt.e... [pitt.edu] If this is correct, then it's meaningless to talk about "before" the Big Bang. So it's not just an aversion to the "unknown," but suggesting that things existed before the Big Bang, is a contradiction to the current understanding of cosmology. When a theory comes along that contradicts what scientists generally agree upon, the threshold is very high for any theory that upends that model.

      • by gweihir ( 88907 )

        The standard model is a model, not reality and does not apply close to the big bang. Hence there is actually no threshold at all to overcome. You just failed to understand how Science works. Incidentally, your own language gives you away: The standard model does not model the Big Bang and anything you think it "suggests" is just a misinterpretation on your part. A model either models something or it does not. It does not "suggest" things. Sure, you can _speculate_ about things based on a model, but that doe

      • The standard model suggests that time itself began with the Big Bang. https://philsci-archive.pitt.e... [pitt.edu]

        I would not rely on an essay by a professor of philosopher to clarify the standard model of big-bang cosmology, but I do point out that the very first paragraph says "However, not everybody agrees with this verdict."

  • at a certain point this gets ridiculous. Why can't general relativity plot the rotation of stars? Must be that 90 percent of everything is invisible. Can't find the invisible stuff? Must be because the invisible stuff was made before everything else.
    • by gtall ( 79522 ) on Sunday September 01, 2024 @08:12AM (#64753130)

      Hmmm....good point. One's theory is wrong. What does one do? Come up with a new theory. Hah, you've solved the problem, theories are dime a dozen. Maybe you could tell the physicists their theories are wrong and show them how to correct them. Should be easy, you could probably do it in an afternoon.

      Every attempt at changing Einstein's gravity has failed. That does not mean scientists have not and are not currently trying. Newton's theory was not wrong, his mathematics was spot on. The interpretation of that theory was wrong is many instances and required us to limit its area of use, but we still use it. We build bridges using it. Einstein did not do away with Newton's math, he improved it. And just so you know, Newton's constant for gravitation is still used in modern relativity.

      • everything being made of invisible stuff we cannot find is not a new theory it is contrivance to appease what has become a religion. What you are describing is not what is happening, otherwise my comment would not have been necessary. we don't need a new theory we need to integrate the theories we have. The issue is that general relativity is not unified with quantum mechanics and when it is it will be shown that curvature of space occurs in all the compacted dimensions and that that is the actuality of
    • at a certain point this gets ridiculous. Why can't general relativity plot the rotation of stars? Must be that 90 percent of everything is invisible. Can't find the invisible stuff? Must be because the invisible stuff was made before everything else.

      C'mon. These are definitely not the first people to posit a cyclic universe. It's an open question whether the universe is closed, flat, or open and bright sparks are busy trying to find ways to measure the overall curvature. It's quite reasonable to hypothesize "if the universe is closed and cyclic, what might be a predictable effect?"

      What these people are saying is "We can't explain the observed rotational curves and gravitational lensing. If the universe is cyclical, here's a plausible idea of what might

  • Is that a European asteroid, or an African asteroid?

    But seriously, asteroids come in a wide range of sizes.

    • I'm sure the black holes also come in a wide range of sizes. I think they are pointing out they are not stellar or planetary size, nor weight as little as a kilogram. So, somewhere in the range of asteroid sizes.
    • A black hole, the mass of a small asteroid, could just be an asteroid. It would be equally invisible to us, but it will fail to attract research funding. In astronomy, asteroids are passe and only black holes have the type of gravitas to attract money.
      • If dark matter were asteroids, we'd see trillions of times more asteroids than we actually observe.

        They would occlude stars and emit IR. Many would fall into stars, creating stars rich in iron and silicon in their outer layers.

        We see none of that.

        • If dark matter were asteroids, we'd see trillions of times more asteroids than we actually observe. They would occlude stars and emit IR. Many would fall into stars, creating stars rich in iron and silicon in their outer layers.

          Actually, not necessarily. If they're large enough, the surface area to mass ratio is quite small, so they wouldn't emit enough IR (per unit mass) to see. And you wouldn't see them occlude stars because they are too small-- they'd have to be planet sized to occlude stars, and if they are planet sized, they'd be very sparse. And, as for falling into stars, quoting Douglas Adams, "space is big".

          But that last factor is really it. It's not so much falling into stars now, but, why weren't the heavy elements (stu

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      The problem is that if it were the mass of an asteroid originally, it would be rapidly evaporating and emitting radiation now.

      I suspect that the actual answer is that small black holes can't completely evaporate. Once they get small enough they can no longer capture have of a pair of virtual particles, so they stop evaporating. And those are the black holes that are "dark matter". They're black holes, alright, but they're of minimal size. Too small to eat anything. Which means that they can travel thro

      • The problem is that if it were the mass of an asteroid originally, it would be rapidly evaporating and emitting radiation now.

        If the mass of the black hole is greater than about 10^11 kg, it wouldn't have evaporated in the lifetime of the universe to date. Seems like a lot, but 100 million tons is small for an asteroid.

        • by HiThere ( 15173 )

          Ok, but why would they all be the same size? If you're going to have the big bang generating massive asteroids, then I'd expect a range of sizes, with some being a lot smaller than others. So you should be able to detect them spewing radiation. Unless you've got some reason for a particular minimum size. (E.g. it only happened when things were at a particular density that yielded a certain Schwarzschild radius.)

          • Ok, but why would they all be the same size? If you're going to have the big bang generating massive asteroids, then I'd expect a range of sizes, with some being a lot smaller than others. So you should be able to detect them spewing radiation. Unless you've got some reason for a particular minimum size. (E.g. it only happened when things were at a particular density that yielded a certain Schwarzschild radius.)

            Since I don't know the model of how the big bang generates black holes, I don't have a good guess as to the size range.

          • So black hole evaporation time is based on the cube of the mass, about 3.396*10^-16*(Mass in kg)^3 seconds. The time transitions quickly from "basically instantly" to "basically never". So a black hole weighing about 1.0861*10^11 kg would evaporate before humans existed, and one weighing 1.0862*10^11 kg would evaporate 3.8 million years later, by which time humans might not exist.

            I'm not a statistician nor astronomer so I can't say what that means in regards to being able to see one now with our tech. Also,

  • That's a very big IF.

  • If I understand correctly in this model all the photons and particles result from the too small black holes which have evaporated into photons and particles, the rest of matter would still be trapped in larger black hole. This is a refreshing perspective of our origins.
    Remains just to explain 2/3 of the rest of the universe, dark energy.

  • "The Big Bang may not have been the beginning of the universe..."

    For some redefining of "beginning", "universe" and/or "Big Bang" that could be true, but for a "universe" of space-time as we know it, the "Big Bang" is the "beginning of the universe". That doesn't mean there isn't something outside the scope of space-time, but "beginning" has a particular meaning with respect to "time" that is defined within the "universe". Not very sciencey, this "LiveScience".

  • So whether or not they existed "before" the Big Bang (whatever that means, since time was created with the Big Bang), we should be able to "see" them as we can see "regular" black holes.

    • by Viol8 ( 599362 )

      "since time was created with the Big Bang"

      If time didn't exist then the big bang couldn't have happened as changing state requires time to happen in. The universe (or whatever it was) would be in suspended animation.

  • Some physicists these days like Sean Carroll think that the arrow of time and causality arise thermodynamically. All fundamental physical laws are time-reversible, so the only way for there to be a difference between "forward" and "backward" in time is because one direction was closer to the Big Bang than the other. Increases of entropy are the engine of time asymmetry and causation; there's no other way for us to sensibly say the past causes the future (and not vice versa) since at a fundamental level th

  • That seems rather dangerous. Wouldn't they be easy to detect when they hit things and create big flashes of light and radiation? Wouldn't their gravity attract them to stars and planets where they would eventually absorb them?
    • Cosmologically, it is a lot harder to have massive objects, moving at different speeds and directions, actually hit. Even when they get close, the speeds involved often just mean they careen off in different vectors. But if they do manage to come together just right, they are just as likely to form an orbit around it other. It would be easier for you to hit an arrow, with ANOTHER arrow, while both are in flight than for a random object to slam into another random object on such a scale.

      But since the univ

  • This reminds me of hard sci-fi book Tau Zero from Poul Anderson

  • Didn't we agree that big bang is when time started or came into existence and there's absolutely NO 'before the big bang' ?
    Because otherwise it's all turtles..

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