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Wild New Study Suggests Gravity Can Exist Without Mass (sciencealert.com) 120

A new study by astrophysicist Richard Lieu suggests that gravity can exist without mass, proposing thin, shell-like layers of 'topological defects' as an alternative to dark matter for explaining the gravitational binding of galaxies. This theory posits that these defects create a gravitational force without detectable mass, potentially eliminating the need for dark matter in current cosmological models. Clare Watson reports via ScienceAlert: Lieu started out trying to find another solution to the Einstein field equations, which relate the curvature of space-time to the presence of matter within it. As Einstein described in his 1915 theory of general relativity, space-time warps around bundles of matter and streams of radiation in the Universe, depending on their energy and momentum. That energy is, of course, related to mass in Einstein's famous equation: E=mc2. So an object's mass is linked to its energy, which bends space-time -- and this curvature of space-time is what Einstein described as gravity, a notch more sophisticated than Newton's 17th-century approximation of gravity as a force between two objects with mass. In other words, gravity seems inextricably linked to mass. Not so, posits Lieu.

In his workings, Lieu set about solving a simplified version of the Einstein field equations that allows for a finite gravitation force in the absence of any detectable mass. He says his efforts were "driven by my frustration with the status quo, namely the notion of dark matter's existence despite the lack of any direct evidence for a whole century." Lieu's solution consists of shell-shaped topological defects that might occur in very compact regions of space with a very high density of matter. These sets of concentric shells contain a thin layer of positive mass tucked inside an outer layer of negative mass. The two masses cancel each other out, so the total mass of the two layers is exactly zero. But when a star lies on this shell, it experiences a large gravitational force dragging it towards the center of the shell. "The contention of my paper is that at least the shells it posits are massless," Lieu says. If those contentious suggestions bear any weight, "there is then no need to perpetuate this seemingly endless search for dark matter," Lieu adds.

The next question, then, is how to possibly confirm or refute the shells Lieu has proposed through observations. "The increasing frequency of sightings of ring and shell-like formation of galaxies in the Universe lends evidence to the type of source being proposed here," Lieu writes in his paper. Although he admits that his proposed solution is "highly suggestive" and cannot alone discredit the dark matter hypothesis. "It could be an interesting mathematical exercise at best," Lieu concludes. "But it is the first [mathematical] proof that gravity can exist without mass."
The study has been published in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.
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Wild New Study Suggests Gravity Can Exist Without Mass

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  • negative mass (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tinkerton ( 199273 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @02:08AM (#64548287)

    I just need to invent this trivial little thing called negative mass, what?

    • Great name for a metal band, isn't it? Negative Mass!
    • ...plus huge new amounts of very dense matter as well to balance out the negative mass. Mr Occam would not approve.
    • Re:negative mass (Score:5, Informative)

      by gtall ( 79522 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @06:36AM (#64548535)

      He didn't invent negative mass, he merely assumed it. The notion goes back to the 1950s. See the wikipedia article:

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      • I'm aware. Point stands though.
        I recall a nice alternative theory of relativity which assigned a negative energy to the gravitational field itself. Impossible to find though because the author was Bernouilli something.

    • by msauve ( 701917 )
      The opposite of gravity is comedy.
      • You're a little late with that joke, which has appeared in countless places ... the opposite of specific gravity is general hilarity

      • tragedy is when i cut my finger. comedy is when an anti-gravity disc throws you up in the air and you die

    • You can invent positive-mass and negative-mass virtual particles that appear and disappear in the quantum vacuum.
    • by CEC-P ( 10248912 )
      And negative mass isn't anywhere in the Standard Model. It would be capable of backwards time travel, which is also almost definitely impossible and would break causality, etc. So it's pretty safe to say it doesn't exist.
      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        No, that's not negative mass. Negative energy matter, which is assume is what negative mass is since E=mc^2, is what you need to stabilize a wormhole.

        FWIW, a positron has been described as an electron traveling backwards in time. I believe that's the way it is depicted in Feynman diagrams, but it's been so long I'm not certain. So it *is* a part of the standard model. But it doesn't have negative mass.

      • It would be capable of backwards time travel, which is also almost definitely impossible and would break causality

        Not if the Many Worlds Interpretation is correct. You could go back in time and change whatever you wanted because your timeline would not be affected.
    • by Junta ( 36770 )

      As far as I understand, currently all the explanations are 'inventing' something or another that has so far not been directly observed. Perhaps it's a flying spaghetti monster pushing things around?

      • The claim is they can get rid of something but they replace it with sth exotic instead. It's very much not attractive.
        I won't go as far as saying 'unscientific' or 'occam' or anything because people make that into sth hard edged which it is not.

        • I think it's more that they can find no evidence of dark matter, so here is an alternative solution to the equations that doesn't require dark matter. Now people can design experiments to see if this matches reality. He's claiming it's done.
          • Opps, I mean he's not claiming it's done.
          • Can they do experiments? As in actual experiments not 'In theory if you had a trillion dollar and all the resources in the solar system' .At this level I think it's just doing math.

            • You have to start somewhere. New experiments are hard to devise and perform. Nobel prizes are awarded for such things.

              However, he's not saying this is the right answer. As you say, it's just doing math with the existing equations. But this gives the experimental physicists more options since the dark matter stuff hasn't yet worked out.

              • If you look at science as an investor, as an experimental scientist I would not be tempted to invest here. It's really low return on investment stuff. You might say 'it all is in that area'. Yes.

      • As far as I understand, currently all the explanations are 'inventing' something or another that has so far not been directly observed.

        Isn't that how science works? A hypothesis is created to explain something, then tests and observations come afterwards?

        • by Junta ( 36770 )

          Sure, but in this case it seems like one hypothesis is considered "good" by virtue of being popularly established and one is "bad" by virtue of challenging the first without any actionable tests for either. I could imagine a swapped scenario, where the negative mass hypothesis was something established and then dark matter comes along and people mock it because negative mass already explains it.

          • by drnb ( 2434720 )

            Sure, but in this case it seems like one hypothesis is considered "good" by virtue of being popularly established and one is "bad" by virtue of challenging the first without any actionable tests for either.

            Sounds like steady state vs big bang.

    • Ultimately, mass is energy. From our perspective, mass is a huge amount of energy in a small amount of space. When energy is confined in such a way, we say that there is mass. Could there not be energy states and positions that could push similar effects across a "larger" (from our perspective) scale?

      I just need to invent this trivial little thing called negative mass, what?

      You live in a digital universe where there are points and exact moments of state changes. I live in an analog universe where there are no exact moments and the state changes are where all the interesting shit i

    • Antigravity already is part of the theory as the cosmological constant/dark energy. It's the result of empty space having energy (such that it's favorable to create more space). I think negative mass is supposed to be something different, but it's hard to tell what with it not existing. Would it have negative inertia?

      On the other hand, we already can create and detect dark matter particles, we call them neutrinos. They completely ignore electromagnetism, and have mass. It's just we'd need lots and lots and

      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        No. Neutrinos aren't dark matter. They're just hard to detect. They *were* considered as a candidate for awhile. (Well "sterile neutrinos" were...but they don't seem to exist.)

        • They're exactly the description of dark matter, other than that the distribution of them would be hard to explain. They're dark matter, just we think they're the wrong dark matter -- though feel free to illuminate me as to how you could illuminate a neutrino.

      • Itâ(TM)s false to assume that neutrinos have no electromagnetic component. They, like neutrons may have both positive and negative components that create a net neutral electric field.
    • Re: negative mass (Score:2, Insightful)

      by SuperDre ( 982372 )
      Well, Einstein's theory is also based on something that hasn't been found or proven yet, dark matter. It's all just theory to try to explain stuff, but in reality there is no real evidence the theory is actually right, that still has to be proven. Just like "laws of physics", they are just rules made up by people to try to explain stuff, but they might not be right as there is still so much that can't be explained by those "laws".
      • by jonadab ( 583620 )
        Special and general relativity don't need dark matter. They work without it.

        A lot of speculative astrophysics (notably including the Big Bang) relies on dark matter. But relativity does not require it. Relativity _allows_ for dark matter, in the sense that if dark matter were found to exist, relativity would not thus be invalidated. But it does not require it.

        Anyway, if you think negative mass is a weird idea, wait until you hear about imaginary (or complex) mass.
  • The next question, then, is how to possibly confirm or refute the shells Lieu has proposed through observations.

    No, the next question is what is the next unproven theory we can layer on top of this unproven theory so we can continue pretending it's not unproven theories all the way down?

    • Re:The next question (Score:5, Informative)

      by cowdung ( 702933 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @02:38AM (#64548321)

      Theories are never "proven," they are supported with ever increasing evidence.

      So a lot of things we believe to be true in Astronomy, like Black Holes, are increasingly more likely because we've had so many observations that support their existence, and theories that predict their behavior supported by observations.

      But nothing is ever "proven." At least not in the mathematical sense.

      For example, we thought Gravity was a force because of Newton's theories. But Einstein came up with his theories, and also predicted how those theories could be supported by evidence. For example, he predicted gravitational lensing, and that was later observed during solar eclipses. Other experiments and observations have further supported it.

      So the very useful Newtonian model of gravity, while still used at the small scale, is not as useful at the cosmological scale. And Einstein's model has proven to be far more accurate.

      But that doesn't mean that some new model can't come along and do a better job. Though I'm guessing it may take a few hundred years to get there.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • by cowdung ( 702933 )

          Well going back to the original article, this guy has a lot he'll need to prove. He's suggesting that a new theory can explain the "dark matter" phenomena that has been observed on telescopes, but we don't understand.

          But now the next step is figuring out what experiments would prove or disprove his new model. Otherwise it's just an interesting thought experiment and not a well thought out model of the universe. No matter how much math you do.

          • Well going back to the original article, this guy has a lot he'll need to prove. He's suggesting that a new theory can explain the "dark matter" phenomena that has been observed on telescopes, but we don't understand.

            But now the next step is figuring out what experiments would prove or disprove his new model. Otherwise it's just an interesting thought experiment and not a well thought out model of the universe. No matter how much math you do.

            A big problem is that "Dark matter" is an unfortunately named placeholder. Whatever the cause of our observations not being in line with our physics is not necessarily matter at all, and inventing non-mass gravity sure does have a lot of proving to do.

            Right now, it isn't anything other than another and quite problematic placeholder that is placed on another placeholder. Reminds me of string theory as unprovable.

            Wonder what happens when a big expression of massless gravity and a black hole collide?

      • by cusco ( 717999 )

        There's been some weird modding done in this thread. Someone higher up has an interesting point but they're already at -1, and yours is at 0 Redundant. I've had mod points for most of the last week, but today when they'd be useful to fix some of this I don't.

      • For example, we thought Gravity was a force because of Newton's theories.

        Pop science and many reputable scientists still think so.

        But Einstein came up with his theories, and also predicted how those theories could be supported by evidence.

        It has been a hundred years. I think we may be stuck at Gravity is a fundamental force of the Universe for a VERY long time. :(

        • by cowdung ( 702933 )

          It has been a hundred years. I think we may be stuck at Gravity is a fundamental force of the Universe for a VERY long time. :(

          Well, its still easier to compute the structural integrity of a building using Newton's model rather then Einstein's.

          The Einstein stuff is far more advanced. But it's overkill low energy, small scale stuff. We can use the force model just fine.

    • by Roger W Moore ( 538166 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @03:30AM (#64548375) Journal

      we can continue pretending it's not unproven theories all the way down

      It is unproven theories all the way down. Nobody has ever pretended otherwise and, in fact, in quantum field theory this is actually explained by effective field theory [wikipedia.org] where you can construct a field theory that works at a given energy/length scale which is an average over the more fundamental physics happening at a higher energy/shorter distance scale. Fermi's beta decay theory is a classic example of this where his four-fermion vertex is fundamentally a low energy W-boson exchange.

      The result is that the Standard Model itself is an effective field theory of some higher-energy, more fundamental theory. The problem is that there are basically an infinite number of possible higher-energy theories that would all give the SM at low energy so you can't extrapolate from low to high energy, you actually have to find a way to measure what happens at higher energies to find which model is right.

      At some point the hope is that we will eventually get a fundamental understanding of everything but, until we get there, it absolutely will be unproven theories all the way down. However, that does not mean that the effective theories we have are not incredibly useful. Just look at what we achieved with Newtonian mechanics which is just a low-energy effective theory of relativitistic quantum mechanics.

      • At some point the hope is that we will eventually get a fundamental understanding of everything but, until we get there, it absolutely will be unproven theories all the way down.

        Even if we get to a point where our best theory explains all the things to the 20th decimal place, it will still be unproven theories all the way down -- just really, really good theories. Scientific theories can never be proven, only disproven.

        The only way that changes is if we find that the universe is a simulation and manage to hack into it and read the source code. Even then we'll have a mass of unproven and unprovable theories about the nature of the machine that's executing it.

        • That's certainly one theory, yes. However, until we actually discover the fundamental nature of the universe we really do not know. Suppose it is all built on pure geometry or other mathematical theory? So far, yes no scientific theory is unproveable in the sense that a mathematical theory can be but maths is based on a series of axioms and, if it turns out that we can do that with physics at some extremely fundamental level, then suddenly science becomes just as provable as maths.

          The problem is that we
      • Just look at what we achieved with Newtonian mechanics which is just a low-energy effective theory of relativitistic quantum mechanics.

        Yeah, when a low-quality model is THAT effective, good luck looking beyond it. :(

    • The next question, then, is how to possibly confirm or refute the shells Lieu has proposed through observations.

      No, the next question is what is the next unproven theory we can layer on top of this unproven theory so we can continue pretending it's not unproven theories all the way down?

      Quite frankly, we should welcome any theory until we can find an answer and turn it into more than a theory. Mainly to remind people that most talking about space are not as knowledgeable as many assume. “Dark” matter and “dark” energy combined make up 95% of the known universe. Here’s what NASA has to say after many decades:

      We don't know much about dark energy either, but we do know there is a lot of it.

      Sure must be nice to get paid that much being labeled an “expert” and still be absolutely fucking clueless about 95% of it. Most people are

    • "continue pretending it's not unproven theories"

      Scientific theories can never be proven, only disproven.

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @02:21AM (#64548301)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Occam's Razor (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Roger W Moore ( 538166 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @03:16AM (#64548353) Journal

      This solution, that there is a mechanism for, what I will term, dark gravity, seems imaginative.

      It fails Occam's Razor pretty significantly though. Instead of a yet-to-be found particle with a mass we now need a yet-to-be-found particle or field that manifests a negative mass. We have never found anything like that before while we absolutely have seem particles with mass before.

      This does not mean that it is wrong but if you start to entertain really wild ideas that require huge amounts of new physics then the number of possible explanations of Dark Matter start to exponentially increase because you are no longer closely tied to established physics. Given the huge number of possibilities that then open up, none of which have any evidence to support them, there is no reason to think this theory any more likely than e.g. new modified versions of MOND [wikipedia.org] or other wacky ideas. That's why we tend to use Occam's Razor because, without it, the number of possible theories to consider rapidly grows out of control.

      • by cowdung ( 702933 )

        All ideas are good. But you also need to come up with how this fits in with the whole range of observations already made, and with experiments that prove or disprove the new model.

        Otherwise it never goes beyond just being an interesting thought experiment.

        • Some things are just beyond reach of experiments, so we'd have to stick with "just accept and calculate it" mindset. For example, nondeterminism in quantum mechanics, or law of gravity becoming linear at low enough gravity fields.
        • Re:Occam's Razor (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Roger W Moore ( 538166 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @10:40AM (#64549063) Journal

          All ideas are good.

          No they really are not e.g. the idea that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent, the ideas behind homeopathy, chiropractic manipulation and other pseudo-scientific rubbish, the idea that the earth is flat, the idea that the universe was created in ~4000BC and not by the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago etc. These ideas range from the silly to the downright dangerous but not one of them can possibly be said to be "good".

          While this particular idea is certainly not in the same category as those I do not see how it really adds much to the scientific discussion of DM. The fact that negative mass could hide the long range effects of extra mass is hardly surprising - we have lots of experience with this in EM and even QCD.

          • All ideas are good.

            No they really are not e.g. the idea that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent ...

            Hm. If you kill the question before it is ever asked, how can you be certain that the vaccine is indeed safer than the disease it prevents?

            ALL ideas are good. Some are less useful than others. Some ideas are good only for the contrast they provide.

            Restricting ideas restricts Freedom.

      • This solution, that there is a mechanism for, what I will term, dark gravity, seems imaginative.

        It fails Occam's Razor pretty significantly though. Instead of a yet-to-be found particle with a mass we now need a yet-to-be-found particle or field that manifests a negative mass. We have never found anything like that before while we absolutely have seem particles with mass before. This does not mean that it is wrong but if you start to entertain really wild ideas that require huge amounts of new physics then the number of possible explanations of Dark Matter start to exponentially increase because you are no longer closely tied to established physics.

        OTOH, if the negative matter assumption generates some testable predictions about the observable structure of the currently-unexplained gravitational forces, while the dark matter assumption does not, and if those predictions are supported by observations, then there's reason to prefer the negative matter theory and its additional descriptive power. And it sounds plausible that this could be the case.

        • if the negative matter assumption generates some testable predictions about the observable structure of the currently-unexplained gravitational forces, while the dark matter assumption does not

          I think it is more like the opposite. DM models do explain why DM has a very different distribution of mass around galaxies - a spherical halo instead of a spiral disc. Indeed, it also explains how spiral galaxies can remain stable and can explain observed phenomena like the bullet cluster where two groups of galaxies collided and the matter collided and heated up producing X-rays while the bulk of the mass (as seen by gravitational lensing) passed through each other. I'm not sure how this negative mass mo

    • "dark matter is not a theory":

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • Yawn. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Eunomion ( 8640039 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @03:14AM (#64548351)
    All these mathematical structures being proposed are just linguistic exercises rather than scientific ones. Testable, exclusive predictions or it's useless. Cosmologists are getting bored, and their boredom is boring.
    • Re:Yawn. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by JoshuaZ ( 1134087 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @06:00AM (#64548503) Homepage
      The problem of how to test this is explicitly acknowledged in both the summary and the original paper. It is also worth recognizing that there are a lot of hypotheses which have turned out to be correct where there was a big gap between when the hypothesis was proposed and when it became testable. For example, when neutrinos were first proposed, many believed that they would never be detectable, and this was considered a major problem with the idea. However, in 1942, Wang Ganchang proposed a method of detecting them via beta capture. But even this looked unlikely to work given the limitations of instruments and neutrino production at the time. It would not be until 1956 when they would be successfully detected after the work of many people refining the ideas of how to produce and detect them on a large scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowan%E2%80%93Reines_neutrino_experiment [wikipedia.org]. That an idea initially seems to not be detectable with our level of instruments is not a reason to discard it by itself.
      • You can detect neutrinos because they donate energy to something else. How would you detect massless gravity without undertaking the proverbially pointless task of proving a negative?
        • Re:Yawn. (Score:4, Insightful)

          by JoshuaZ ( 1134087 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @07:03AM (#64548581) Homepage
          So, I could just say, that I don't know but that when neutrinos were first proposed no one knew how to detect them either. However, if you read the actual paper in question https://arxiv.org/pdf/2406.04355 [arxiv.org] multiple possible methods of detection are discussed. For example, they make the point that current telescopes could not detect this, but that substantially more powerful ones might be able to.
          • One thing it mentions that's worth reflecting on is that numerous topological interpretations have been offered since 1976, and yet not one of them has gathered a single piece of empirical traction. The failure to find dark matter should be unsettling, but running to abstract math seems a bit like turning to religion.
            • Dark matter has also gained little in the way of empirical traction. That an explanation seems more abstract to you doesn't make it less valid. And the degree of abstraction is not relevant to the question of testability.
              • The thing about dark matter is, we know that matter exists and is associated with gravity. We observe gravity having an effect on matter, but in the case of the anomalous galactic motions, we don't observe the expected quantities of matter. So the idea is there's an odd kind of matter that's harder to see. Very few assumptions needed to make that hypothesis. "Hard to see, the dark matter is, hmm?"

                Failing to find it this long justifies expanding the scope of thinking, yes. But the abstract math ideas
        • There are no kangaroos in my closet.

          • But are there unicorns? Massless gravity = "there are no kangaroos in my closet, ergo there are unicorns." Problem is, we know that kangaroos exist.
    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      Yes, "Testable, exclusive predictions" just happen from the get-go for any theory? Have you ever looked at how scientific theories develop?

      • They do for a physical theory, pretty much by definition. He admits up front that it's basically just mathematical speculation. Which begs the question of why it's even being reported yet.
        • They do for a physical theory, pretty much by definition. He admits up front that it's basically just mathematical speculation.

          Because by proposing the math, now hundreds of other cosmologists can discover ways to confirm or disprove the model? That's how science collaborations work. You don't necessarily have one person do the whole thing.

          • The totality of math is probably a lot bigger than the physics we experience, so if physical questions are deferred into abstract mathematical ones, it makes the problem even bigger and harder to define. And we're seeing that. Einstein's abstract work was leading to lab experiments within a couple of decades, but this is now the third generation of theoreticians chasing math without a roadmap back to empirical reality.

            They get bored or demoralized with their current abstraction's lack of progress, so t
  • Ahem. (Score:5, Funny)

    by mccalli ( 323026 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @03:18AM (#64548359) Homepage
    "The contention of my paper is that at least the shells it posits are massless," Lieu says. If those contentious suggestions bear any weight...

    Irony left as an exercise for the reader.
    • Massless shells are load bearing? Can I put my shopping on one? I could do with some more shelving...

    • by Volanin ( 935080 )

      I thought it was an intended (and very brilliantly executed) pun!
      Kudos to the author for the impeccable writing!

  • by jd ( 1658 ) <imipakNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Friday June 14, 2024 @03:30AM (#64548377) Homepage Journal

    https://iopscience.iop.org/art... [iop.org]

    The claim that relativity stops working at extreme distances IS falsifiable and is far more interesting. If it forces a change to the model of gravity, then we'll have a clearer idea of what the discrepancy actually is. It may easily turn out that such a correction greatly reduces the problem.

    We can't know until we know if there really is this disrepency at extreme distance, why there's a discreprncy, and how to correct for it.

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      That's fine. There are lots of important things that I don't find interesting. That doesn't make them unimportant, it only means I'd rather do something else. There's no benefit in everyone doing (or thinking) the same thing.

      FWIW, I'm not interested enough in this theory to dig into it. I'm interested in it being presented (though I consider it unlikely). Perhaps it could be extended to predict what the negative energy mass would/could consist of, and we could go looking for that.

      If true, it could be v

    • As if gravity was merely a force ...

  • by nniillss ( 577580 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @08:02AM (#64548691)

    As noted or hinted upon by others, the concepts challenged in this paper (i.e. general relativity) are very well established and tested experimentally, e.g., in the context of GPS. Conversely, the question of what negative masses or mass densities would imply is obvious, so that probably every single physics student or professor has thought about it. Still, nobody seems to have found any traces of negative masses.

    Thus, the authors suggestions should be viewed as (potentially) somewhat interesting speculation or an empirical approach for fitting cosmological data.

    I dont think there is anything new that the general public could/should learn from this news or the article.

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      That it hasn't been found on Earth is hardly surprising. It would immediately interact with normal matter to annihilate both without the release of energy.

      I still feel it unlikely, but that it hasn't been detected is hardly a good argument. I think it would be extremely difficult to create appropriate conditions to detect it. It may need a hard enough vacuum that it could only be done in space. (OTOH, how could it have been forged in the first place? Certainly not in any place dominated by normal matte

    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      The proposal doesn't challenge general relativity. The author proposes that galaxies are embedded in nested discontinuities in the gravitational field (the "topological defects"), which, cranking that configuration through the equations of GR, can produce observed galaxy rotation curves.

      The "without mass" thing is weird. The discontinuities can be interpreted as massive singularities surrounded by anti-massive singularies (thus the "negative mass").

  • by Big Hairy Gorilla ( 9839972 ) on Friday June 14, 2024 @08:21AM (#64548727)
    This University of Oxford prof proposed something similar a few years ago.
    I'm not saying I know much about the topic, but to me, this is like Occam's Razor slicing thru dark matter.
    The simplicity is appealing.

    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/bizarre-dark-fluid-with-negative-mass-could-dominate-the-universe-what-my-research-suggests

    https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.07962

    Dark matter seems like the models of the solar system before Copernicus figured a few things out. Those old models bent over backwards with complexity to represent what we saw, but were, with what we now know, unnecessarily complicated.
  • IMHO, gravity is the most powerful force in the universe. Or klutziness. All I can say is that when I'm on a ladder working on the 2nd floor of my place, every tool, nail, screw or anything else I need is going to fall down. Multiple times.
  • In high school physics class, I proposed "gravity holes". This came from watching Roadrunner vs. Coyote cartoons. Gravity holes are what Wyle E. Coyote kept in his pocket, would unful in the middle of the road, but Roadrunner would never fall into. However, they ALWAYS worked on Wyle E. This is somehow related to the black paint Mr. Coyote would paint on the mountains and Roadrunner could run into, but never Wyle E. Also how large trucks and trains could come OUT of the black paint.
  • While it's becoming obvious that there is no such thing as dark matter or dark energy, any proposed theory will shake the foundations of physics. All career scientists have good reason for skepticism and protecting the status quo. While I don't think this proposal is plausible, it shouldn't be ruled out until proven otherwise.

    We need to get back to first principles and the scientific method to have a proper theory of what space is. Until we define space, how can we know what it means to deform it?

    I propose that space is the combination of all electric fields emanating from all charged particles, i.e. a universal electric field modeled by Maxwell's equations, specifically Gauss's law. This explains the double slit experiment as particles in motion emanate a field and are essentially de Broglie's pilot waves. Gravity, like magnetism is a special case of group behaviour. In the case of magnetism, the circular motion of charged particles create a fluctuating field modelled as transverse waves; other charged particles seek the lowest energy state by aligning themselves with the entire group in proximity. In the case of gravity, most often seen as a field emanating from particles with mass, we have quantum standing waves travelling from the particle's point like center and reflecting back from its outer boundary. In this case we have fields whose strength is akin to compression waves. The wavelength is defined by the particle's Compton wavelength, and in the case of particles with mass, e.g. the proton, fluctuates at an incredibly high frequency. The Schrödinger equation models the shape of this field that provides electrons a low energy place to inhabit. We see experimental evidence that gravitation can be produced by electrical activity as exhibited by the EmDrive and the devices made by Exodus technology and others - see https://www.earth.com/news/nas... [earth.com]. This proposal is a form of Modified Newtonian Dynamics, and is generally ruled out as possible, even though it explains why there is no need for things like dark matter and dark energy.

    For me, my proposition is obvious and is supported by centuries of experimental evidence. But to the career physicist, is for some reason ridiculous.
  • .. is unacceptable. It obviates the need for a several trillion dollar investment in the next superconducting supercollider which we will need to find the elusive dark matter particle.

    Who does this guy think he is? Some lousy patent clerk scribbling his ideas instead of rubber stamping obvious technology applications.

  • "Dark money" is the money you don't have in your checking account, that you have no idea where it went. It can easily be explained by "negative money."

  • If we can create gravity without mass that would do wonders to solve the climate crisis

Keep up the good work! But please don't ask me to help.

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