The Desert Planet In 'Dune' Is Plausible, According To Science (sciencenews.org) 51
The desert planet Arrakis in Frank Herbert's science fiction novel Dune is plausible, says Alexander Farnsworth, a climate modeler at the University of Bristol in England. According to Science News, the world would be a harsh place for humans to live, and they probably wouldn't have to worry about getting eaten by extraterrestrial helminths. From the report: For their Arrakis climate simulation, which you can explore at the website Climate Archive, Farnsworth and colleagues started with the well-known physics that drive weather and climate on Earth. Using our planet as a starting point makes sense, Farnsworth says, partly because Herbert drew inspiration for Arrakis from "some sort of semi-science of looking at dune systems on the Earth itself." The team then added nuggets of information about the planet from details in Herbert's novels and in the Dune Encyclopedia. According to that intel, the fictional planet's atmosphere is similar to Earth's with a couple of notable differences. Arrakis has less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than Earth -- about 350 parts per million on the desert planet compared with 417 parts per million on Earth. But Dune has far more ozone in its lower atmosphere: 0.5 percent of the gases in the atmosphere compared to Earth's 0.000001 percent.
All that extra ozone is crucial for understanding the planet. Ozone is a powerful greenhouse gas, about 65 times as potent at warming the atmosphere as carbon dioxide is, when measured over a 20-year period. "Arrakis would certainly have a much warmer atmosphere, even though it has less CO2 than Earth today," Farnsworth says. In addition to warming the planet, so much ozone in the lower atmosphere could be bad news. "For humans, that would be incredibly toxic, I think, almost fatal if you were to live under such conditions," Farnsworth says. People on Arrakis would probably have to rely on technology to scrub ozone from the air. Of course, ozone in the upper atmosphere could help shield Arrakis from harmful radiation from its star, Canopus. (Canopus is a real star also known as Alpha Carinae. It's visible in the Southern Hemisphere and is the second brightest star in the sky. Unfortunately for Dune fans, it isn't known to have planets.) If Arrakis were real, it would be located about as far from Canopus as Pluto is from the sun, Farnsworth says. But Canopus is a large white star calculated to be about 7,200 degrees Celsius. "That's significantly hotter than the sun," which runs about 2,000 degrees cooler, Farnsworth says. But "there's a lot of supposition and assumptions they made in here, and whether those are accurate numbers or not, I can't say."
The climate simulation revealed that Arrakis probably wouldn't be exactly as Herbert described it. For instance, in one throwaway line, the author described polar ice caps receding in the summer heat. But Farnsworth and colleagues say it would be far too hot at the poles, about 70Â C during the summer, for ice caps to exist at all. Plus, there would be too little precipitation to replenish the ice in the winter. High clouds and other processes would warm the atmosphere at the poles and keep it warmer than lower latitudes, especially in the summertime. Although Herbert's novels have people living in the midlatitudes and close to the poles, the extreme summer heat and bone-chilling -40C to -75C temperatures in the winters would make those regions nearly unlivable without technology, Farnsworth says. Temperatures in Arrakis' tropical latitudes would be relatively more pleasant at 45C in the warmest months and about 15C in colder months. On Earth, high humidity in the tropics makes it far warmer than at the poles. But on Arrakis, "most of the atmospheric moisture was essentially removed from the tropics," making even the scorching summers more tolerable. The poles are where clouds and the paltry amount of moisture gather and heat the atmosphere. But the tropics on Arrakis pose their own challenges. Hurricane force winds would regularly sandblast inhabitants and build dunes up to 250 meters tall, the researchers calculate. It doesn't mean people couldn't live on Arrakis, just that they'd need technology and lots of off-world support to bring in food and water, Farnsworth says. "I'd say it's a very livable world, just a very inhospitable world."
All that extra ozone is crucial for understanding the planet. Ozone is a powerful greenhouse gas, about 65 times as potent at warming the atmosphere as carbon dioxide is, when measured over a 20-year period. "Arrakis would certainly have a much warmer atmosphere, even though it has less CO2 than Earth today," Farnsworth says. In addition to warming the planet, so much ozone in the lower atmosphere could be bad news. "For humans, that would be incredibly toxic, I think, almost fatal if you were to live under such conditions," Farnsworth says. People on Arrakis would probably have to rely on technology to scrub ozone from the air. Of course, ozone in the upper atmosphere could help shield Arrakis from harmful radiation from its star, Canopus. (Canopus is a real star also known as Alpha Carinae. It's visible in the Southern Hemisphere and is the second brightest star in the sky. Unfortunately for Dune fans, it isn't known to have planets.) If Arrakis were real, it would be located about as far from Canopus as Pluto is from the sun, Farnsworth says. But Canopus is a large white star calculated to be about 7,200 degrees Celsius. "That's significantly hotter than the sun," which runs about 2,000 degrees cooler, Farnsworth says. But "there's a lot of supposition and assumptions they made in here, and whether those are accurate numbers or not, I can't say."
The climate simulation revealed that Arrakis probably wouldn't be exactly as Herbert described it. For instance, in one throwaway line, the author described polar ice caps receding in the summer heat. But Farnsworth and colleagues say it would be far too hot at the poles, about 70Â C during the summer, for ice caps to exist at all. Plus, there would be too little precipitation to replenish the ice in the winter. High clouds and other processes would warm the atmosphere at the poles and keep it warmer than lower latitudes, especially in the summertime. Although Herbert's novels have people living in the midlatitudes and close to the poles, the extreme summer heat and bone-chilling -40C to -75C temperatures in the winters would make those regions nearly unlivable without technology, Farnsworth says. Temperatures in Arrakis' tropical latitudes would be relatively more pleasant at 45C in the warmest months and about 15C in colder months. On Earth, high humidity in the tropics makes it far warmer than at the poles. But on Arrakis, "most of the atmospheric moisture was essentially removed from the tropics," making even the scorching summers more tolerable. The poles are where clouds and the paltry amount of moisture gather and heat the atmosphere. But the tropics on Arrakis pose their own challenges. Hurricane force winds would regularly sandblast inhabitants and build dunes up to 250 meters tall, the researchers calculate. It doesn't mean people couldn't live on Arrakis, just that they'd need technology and lots of off-world support to bring in food and water, Farnsworth says. "I'd say it's a very livable world, just a very inhospitable world."
I got worms... (Score:2)
OK now explain how the worms survive there.
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It takes a lot of bitty sand mites to feed a big ol' worm.
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It takes a lot of bitty sand mites to feed a big ol' worm.
What do the mites eat?
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Sand worms.
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It takes a lot of bitty sand mites to eat a big ol' worm.
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What do the mites eat?
The Fantasies of Children... and Mentally-Ill "Scientists," of course.
Re:I got worms... (Score:5, Informative)
The worms are implausible on a planet with no food.
They also wouldn't have evolved. A white giant has a lifetime measured in millions of years, not billions like our sun.
Canopus has a mass of ten sols but is burning fuel 10,000 times faster than our sun.
It will die in less than 10 million years, barely enough time for planets to coalesce out of the dust cloud and no chance to evolve life.
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I always assumed the planet experienced some sort of major climatic event in a past eon and before that it was quite different.
I have no idea if that's lore friendly though.
Re:I got worms... (Score:4, Interesting)
Junior astronomer...
The star is currently in a blue loop. It will be around for a very long time. The big question is whether it continues expanding or becomes a white dwarf. It may not have enough mass to supernova.
That being said... the bigger problem would be the emission of x-rays.
X-rays are the planet killer. I will let them pass through me.
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No, Krukal'Righ [fandom.com] is the planet killer.
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Re: I got worms... (Score:3)
First, the worms are not native to Arrakis; they were brought there.
Second, we have no idea how much food is found on Arrakis. The Landsraad wasn't even aware most of the Fremen lived South of the major sandstorms. The entire planet's hydro system has been sequestered underground. Most likely, that's where the ecosystem went, in terms of biomass.
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Since we're on the subject, has anybody calculated how much energy a worm has to expend to move aside/through that much sand at that speed? It seems like it must be rather a lot :)
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about 7.5 times as much wood as a woodchuck would chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood . . .
hawk
Re: I got worms... (Score:2)
20m radius cross section (for a big one). Say only 1/4 needs to be below surface at max speed (assuming max is reached during worm-riding when worm is near surface).
I can't find any info on speed, but let's assume minimum 40kph to be tactically relevant in battle.
Density of sand is 1600kg/m^3.
You might assume something like an average displacement of 20m to match the radius.
But then, you might also assume some of the material is pass-through. They make a big deal about how the sand liquifies around the worm
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They're just straight-up impossible. It would take a lot of energy to move through sand. Not only that, but their ridiculously large bodies would collapse under their own mass before you even start to worry about the weight of the sand on their backs while they burrow.
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The only way something as useful to humans as Spice is so many way could occur on a planet where humans aren't native is if it was engineered.
Arrakis MUST be an artificial ecology that was created in a time from which records are lost, before the Butlerian Jihad.
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Let it go. You'll feel better. Not everything has to be about your culture war.
This is about a movie. Let it be what it is.
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I heard they pre-wrote a book after the movie, too!
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Since pt 2 hit theaters yesterday this article was clearly inspired by the book.
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theaters still exist?
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Yup. I saw it last night.
If you liked pt1 you'll like pt2. There were 2 minor editing glitches that were a bit confusing briefly but otherwise they pretty much nailed it.
If you did not like pt1 then you'll feel the same about pt2. Skip it.
Years ago when the theatre experience went to shit I got a big tv so I could avoid the theater but now that they've upgraded, kept clean, often serve food to my seat, give me a nice seat I can adjust, etc, I will go 1-2 times a year for a visually "big" show. Otoh I us
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They should eat beans, though maybe they digest so well they don't need assholes. So farting would be a problem.
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Problem? no, you just figured out how they propel through the sand.
They exude gas through their skin like an air hockey table.
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Nice.
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I also remember there being some explanation in the second or third book about how the flatworm-like larval stage of the sandworms link together in a subterranean "skin" that holds down the water table an
Re: I got worms... (Score:1)
Even how the worms can push through that sand with a non pass through head is too impossible, it could o oh work like that in water
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What's a pass thru head?
At last! (Score:2)
So if I live on this “Dune” planet I can use all the R-12 and CFC’s I want! Spray cans! Primatine Mist! Halon! And AC that actually works (I’m gonna need it)! And it will finally be GOOD for the environment!!
Farnsworth (Score:2)
It will be a great day for sci-fi nerds when the GenX members of the faculty retire and Alexander is promoted to Professor.
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There are so few genx relative to other demographics they barely get mentioned. Culture went from boomers straight to millennials.
What are you crying about?
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You missed the obvious Futurama reference.
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Probably because I don't watch it.
Plain old O2 oxygen (Score:2)
for breathing needs lots of microbial biology for it to be liberated in large quantities. Otherwise oxidation will bind it all away.
Re: Plain old O2 oxygen (Score:2)
Yeah this. SiO2 anyone? With no oceans full of algae there's no ongoing breathing happening.
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You, and apparently the climate scientists are unaware of the xenobiological component of the planet, specifically that the sandworms generate oxygen, possibly along with the other phases of their lifecycle, the sand plankton and sandtrout. If the sand plankton emits much at all, that is an enormous source, as it is the food source for the worms.
second opinion? (Score:1)
I don't know about this Farnsworth... I'd like a second opinion. Summon Wernstrom. I'm willing to offer tenure, a big research grant, access to a lab and five graduate students (provisions about their ancestry withheld).
Mmm... I wonder... (Score:2)
This isn't thinly disguised advertising at all, right?
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I swear I hate what I'm about to say but also believe it: It's synergy!
The movie comes out, there's an advertising push, and it gets into a lot of people's heads and they think about it through whatever lens they tend to think about things.
I imagine there's a mix of 'people looking to ride the movie publicity coattails' and 'movie publicity people looking for a new angle to sell the movie' and at some point someone is coordinating things and that's almost certainly coming from the publicity campaign.
But if
"Science" (Score:2)
It will not be long before there is an AI Oracle at Delphi, which by law will have sole jurisdiction over what is Science and will itself henceforth be known as "Science." All questions of Science will be referred to the Oracle for answers.
According to Science? (Score:2)
Can't you just f*cking enjoy it? (Score:3)
Jeez, I hate this kind of butterfly-squashing blowharding. I hate it for the same reason I hate those books and TV shows that blather on about how all the technology in Star Trek and Star Wars isn't possible. Who gives a sh*t? It's FICTION, people! Just STFU and enjoy the ride.
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>and enjoy the ride.
I tried that on the first installment.
I failed. My friend who went with me failed. And that's time from our lives we can never get back . . .
anyway, the idea of taking a piece of fiction and throwing it into an actual model is kind of amusing, and likely to get the interest of the students.
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Jeez, I hate this kind of butterfly-squashing blowharding. I hate it for the same reason I hate those books and TV shows that blather on about how all the technology in Star Trek and Star Wars isn't possible. Who gives a sh*t? It's FICTION, people! Just STFU and enjoy the ride.
It's the difference between science fiction and plain fiction.
Marketing is a science (Score:1)
British tax dollars hard at work (Score:1)
Farnsworth, eh? (Score:2)