Navajo Nation Objects To Landing Human Remains On Moon, Prompting Last-Minute White House Meeting (cnn.com) 193
The White House has convened a last-minute meeting to discuss a private lunar mission, Peregrine Mission One, after the Navajo Nation requested a delay due to cultural concerns over the transport of human ashes for burial on the moon. "The moon holds a sacred place in Navajo cosmology," said Navajo Nation President Buu Nygren in a statement. "The suggestion of transforming it into a resting place for human remains is deeply disturbing and unacceptable to our people and many other tribal nations."
If successful, the commercial mission scheduled to launch Monday "will be the first time an American-made spacecraft has landed on the lunar surface since the end of the Apollo program in 1972," notes CNN. Longtime Slashdot reader garyisabusyguy shares the report: The private companies providing these lunar burial services, Celestis and Elysium Space, are just two of several paying customers hitching a ride to the moon on Pittsburgh-based Astrobotic Technology's Peregrine lunar lander. The uncrewed spacecraft is expected to lift off on the inaugural flight of the United Launch Alliance's Vulcan Centaur rocket from Florida's Cape Canaveral Space Force Station. Celestis' payload, called Tranquility Flight, includes 66 "memorial capsules" containing "cremated remains and DNA," which will remain on the lunar surface "as a permanent tribute to the intrepid souls who never stopped reaching for the stars," according to the company's website.
"We are aware of the concerns expressed by Mr. Nygren, but do not find them substantive," Celestis CEO Charles Chafer told CNN. "We reject the assertion that our memorial spaceflight mission desecrates the moon," Chafer said. "Just as permanent memorials for deceased are present all over planet Earth and not considered desecration, our memorial on the moon is handled with care and reverence, is a permanent monument that does not intentionally eject flight capsules on the moon. It is a touching and fitting celebration for our participants -- the exact opposite of desecration, it is a celebration." Elysium Space has not responded to CNN's request for a comment, but the company's website describes its "Lunar Memorial" as delivering "a symbolic portion of remains to the surface of the Moon, helping to create the quintessential commemoration." "I've been disappointed that this conversation came up so late in the game," John Thornton, Astrobotic Technology CEO, said. "I would have liked to have had this conversation a long time ago. We announced the first payload manifest of this nature to our mission back in 2015. A second in 2020. We really are trying to do the right thing and I hope we can find a good path forward with Navajo Nation." [...]
Friday's meeting convened by the White House is scheduled to feature representatives from NASA, the FAA, the US Department of Transportation, and the Department of Commerce. But Navajo Nation officials have little hope that they will be able to stop Monday's launch. "Based off of what we're seeing, and NASA are already having their pre-launch briefing, it doesn't look like they have any intention of stopping the launch or removing the remains," Ahasteen said.
If successful, the commercial mission scheduled to launch Monday "will be the first time an American-made spacecraft has landed on the lunar surface since the end of the Apollo program in 1972," notes CNN. Longtime Slashdot reader garyisabusyguy shares the report: The private companies providing these lunar burial services, Celestis and Elysium Space, are just two of several paying customers hitching a ride to the moon on Pittsburgh-based Astrobotic Technology's Peregrine lunar lander. The uncrewed spacecraft is expected to lift off on the inaugural flight of the United Launch Alliance's Vulcan Centaur rocket from Florida's Cape Canaveral Space Force Station. Celestis' payload, called Tranquility Flight, includes 66 "memorial capsules" containing "cremated remains and DNA," which will remain on the lunar surface "as a permanent tribute to the intrepid souls who never stopped reaching for the stars," according to the company's website.
"We are aware of the concerns expressed by Mr. Nygren, but do not find them substantive," Celestis CEO Charles Chafer told CNN. "We reject the assertion that our memorial spaceflight mission desecrates the moon," Chafer said. "Just as permanent memorials for deceased are present all over planet Earth and not considered desecration, our memorial on the moon is handled with care and reverence, is a permanent monument that does not intentionally eject flight capsules on the moon. It is a touching and fitting celebration for our participants -- the exact opposite of desecration, it is a celebration." Elysium Space has not responded to CNN's request for a comment, but the company's website describes its "Lunar Memorial" as delivering "a symbolic portion of remains to the surface of the Moon, helping to create the quintessential commemoration." "I've been disappointed that this conversation came up so late in the game," John Thornton, Astrobotic Technology CEO, said. "I would have liked to have had this conversation a long time ago. We announced the first payload manifest of this nature to our mission back in 2015. A second in 2020. We really are trying to do the right thing and I hope we can find a good path forward with Navajo Nation." [...]
Friday's meeting convened by the White House is scheduled to feature representatives from NASA, the FAA, the US Department of Transportation, and the Department of Commerce. But Navajo Nation officials have little hope that they will be able to stop Monday's launch. "Based off of what we're seeing, and NASA are already having their pre-launch briefing, it doesn't look like they have any intention of stopping the launch or removing the remains," Ahasteen said.
The company makes a decent point (Score:5, Insightful)
If the moon is desecrated by remains being present on it, then the earth is thoroughly desecrated by the myriad burials around the earth
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:5, Insightful)
That and they phrase the moon as being sacred to all indigenous people around the world. But isn't everybody indigenous somewhere? Aren't we all indigenous to Earth?
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:4, Funny)
I wish. Someone brought me here against my will from 3 universes ago.
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:3)
Is it the one where everything is the same. But we're cowboys?
Re: (Score:2)
I wish. Someone brought me here against my will from 3 universes ago.
Maybe you were deemed "mostly harmless" so would be the place for you. :-)
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:5, Insightful)
Further, no one is indigenous to the moon.
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:4, Insightful)
That and they phrase the moon as being sacred to all indigenous people around the world. But isn't everybody indigenous somewhere? Aren't we all indigenous to Earth?
Not you, whitey! Because ... er, reasons!
Re: (Score:2)
... a rat once bit my sister nell and whitey's on the moon.
that takes me back a few decades.
Re: (Score:2)
It seems like every pagan or polytheist tradition deifies the moon, and everyone else at least adores it. I'm interested in why this one particular group thinks it speaks for all of them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, but the Navajo may consider the moon holier than the earth.
The Apollo astronauts left poop on the moon [google.com], so the Navajo probably want to talk to NASA about cleaning that up too.
Re:The company makes a decent point (Score:5, Funny)
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:3)
Well you can poke holes in his argument! :)
Re:The company makes a decent point (Score:5, Insightful)
Their logic essentially prohibits us from ever advancing to having bases on the moon since that would be desecrating it as well. This argument is a prime example of how religion and belief in something someone once imagined can hold back our entire species from progress.
Re:The company makes a decent point (Score:4, Interesting)
Wait ... you think this is a science vs religion thing?
Oh, boy. Where do I even begin? Let's try this: Why do you think they're transporting human remains to the moon?
If you think that thing is 'science', you've got an awful lot of reading to do.
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:5, Informative)
While this particular instance is not science, it also would preclude any human activity on the moon, since that would lead to all sorts of "desecration".
Also any group could claim any thing in their religion is sacred and can't be touched.
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:2)
People have all sorts of reasons to do these things. If I were rich, I would indeed pay for these services to make science missions cheaper, perhaps have it sponsor a school mission alongside it and bring other scientific advancements that are brought about by going to the moon. People set challenges all the time for advancement, the burial on the moon for me would be mostly as PR stunt so people would pick up the story, scientific mission going to the moon is rather boring, China and India are doing it and
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:3)
100%. If someone tells Navajos they can have another $3.50 to allow us to dump on the moon, I'm sure they'd be like "nevermind, dump away!"
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why do you think they're transporting human remains to the moon?
Why did you think the GP was talking specifically about transporting human remains? Did you not read the first sentence of his post?
Re:The company makes a decent point (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think the Navajo nation has a sufficiently exclusive claim on the moon to take priority. Any more than the deceased have claim on the moon as a burial site due to it's sacredness to them. Or to turn up the absurdity, a sun worshiper elsewhere has claim that the Navajo nation should not be stealing sacred sunlight to grow crops.
With that said, I think the burials should be stopped on the same grounds; the company does not have sufficiently exclusive claim on the moon to start landing moon junk, and I'm surprised international treaties don't sufficiently cover the 'not yours' aspect to prevent this kind of use.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Nobody actually cares about the Navajo nation, you know. These organised minority groups play much the same role in US politics as Nauru does in the UN. They vote however the highest bidder asks them to vote, and the bids aren't high. It's very apparent in US presidential election years like this one: organized minority interest groups (not to be confused with the actual minorities they supposedly speak for) can be directed to have concerns where the money points.
So if the White House really had a meeting a
Re: (Score:2)
I deeply respect your culture, and I'm stealing your land.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:2)
More than that, the Outer Space Treaty of 1967 says that outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall be free for exploration and use by all States without discrimination of any kind, on a basis of equality and in accordance with international law, and there shall be free access to all areas of celestial bodies.
I'm pretty sure that is going to supercede a particular religion's claim of ownership rights.
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:2)
You'd be disrespecting the people's wishes who are now ashes, to refuse to bury them on the moon.
Re: (Score:2)
It won't automatically become a legitimate and reasonable request just because it was someones dying wish.
Many places have laws about what you can do with peoples ashes and where you can bury them.
Re: (Score:2)
Well in that case, I'm going to amend my last will and testament to reflect my wishes that my ashes be spread on the carpet of the Lincoln Bedroom in the White House.
Don't be disrespecting my wishes, now!
What an absurd argument.
Re: (Score:2)
So, you consider the coffins, caskets, and headstones in your local cemetery to be contaminating "garbage." Interesting.
They certainly have an interesting mixture of micro and macroscopic fauna.
Why risk spreading bacterial life on a body that does not have it, with actions without a direct benefit?
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:2)
Yeah, because there is absolutely no way to sterilize small non-living payloads previous to space flight, is there?
Re: (Score:2)
Well actually they objectively are. Cemeteries are a huge waste of space, bonus points for filling them with wooden objects that have gone through all manner of chemical treatment to make them look pretty at a funeral, before we talk about burying remains which are more formaldehyde than person.
Cemeteries present a a huge environmental problem. You should very much find it interesting.
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:2)
Screw "doing the right thing". The Navajo nation would also block a lunar base because it's "desecrating". Sorry, I don't have to respect your religion or god.
Re: The company makes a decent point (Score:2)
If I take a giant laser and carve a penis on the moon, is it going to offend Navajos also? Only one way to find out, lol!
Science flies humans to the moon. (Score:4, Insightful)
Religion flies humans into buildings.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Doing science is like explaining magic tricks. For many people, it ruins the show. The very first part of the bible has a prohibition against knowing, and all the plights of the world are described as a result of trying to know. Can there be a clearer warning against letting religion run things?
You don't - can't - speak for everyone. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's nonsensical. The only way your statement can even get vaguely near accuracy is to dilute the meaning of "religion" to "everyone thinks about things", which is an absurd reduction. Even the secondary definition to describe it has nothing to do with theism or spirituality...
Just as one for-instance, a confidence-based, flexible approach to evidence-based, consensually experiential, repeatable science does not require being of importance to one's overall outlook, indicative of belief, or implying any kind of spirituality.
The world is replete with people of all manner off outlooks. Attempting to reduce them all to "religious" is weak sauce.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Why does "science" think it's so important to deposit human remains on the moon?
And how many buildings are you claiming Navajo have intentionally flown into because of their religion?
I think the objection is dumb but it's not quite as dumb as claiming to be non-religious while wanting millions spent on celestial sarcophaguses for some useless carbon because it was in a human once.
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed. This has absolutely nothing at all to do with science.
You'd think a bunch of self-described "rationalists" would have puzzled that one out...
Re: Science flies humans to the moon. (Score:2)
I think the implications for hypothetical future scientific efforts could be bad depending on the precedent set here. If we must avoid "desecrating" the moon, how much other stuff can we not do?
Re: (Score:2)
Talk about entitlement! There's a lot of stuff we shouldn't do. Reasons vary, but that doesn't really matter when your entire argument is that we should be able to do whatever the fuck we want, consequences be damned, because we can.
Re: Science flies humans to the moon. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Newton wrote more books about Jesus than he did about physics.
True, but he had to make a living too, I think if he wrote no books about Jesus he may have been at best drummed out of academia. At worse, maybe killed.
Re: (Score:2)
Any proof to your claim that religion makes no factual statements that could be scientifically tested? Guess my neighbor must have misunderstood what his religion says about prayer.
Re: (Score:2)
Finding two examples of people who compartmentalised their beliefs to allow them to openly question science does not mean that there's no conflict between science and religion, what it means is you found two people who were bad at religion.
Father Lemaitre dares challenge the dogma of creation. That isn't being religious, that is throwing science in the face of religious dogma. He infamously dodged questions about the conflict of religion and science, and held that you cannot mix the views while maintaining
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Science flies humans to the moon. (Score:4, Insightful)
as Hitch would often say, you have no right to demand I respect your silly-assed beliefs.
the concept of religion being untouchable is long over.
your beliefs are silly and have no place in modern world.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Religion flies humans into buildings.
Wahabism flies humans into buildings. FTFY, you're welcome.
But that's of course not what you're trying to do here is it? You're just going on the usual rightist path of "a sect of islam does something bad -> see islam is bad -> lets take it out on all muslims"
Re: (Score:2)
Meeting for what! (Score:5, Funny)
A meeting for a marathon laugh session I would hope. Otherwise I am declaring that all Navajo toilets are sacred to me and therefore they cannot shit in them.
Re: (Score:2)
It was either that, or they looked at each other, turned around, and walked out.
Re: Meeting for what! (Score:2)
The moon is sacred to me. If you don't sling my remains at it, you will be disrepecting me, my religion, and my ancestors. Take that, Navajos!
It's a joke (Score:2)
Obvs.
Re: (Score:2)
I wish it was
The Navajo and Apache are part of a larger cultural group the Dine'
The Navajo have been saying that a ski resort on Mt Humphreys desecrates a cultural site, while the White Mountain Apache run a ski resort on another mountain without any complaints
IMO they deserve some sympathy pats, but beyond that, if they want to tell people what to do, then they should seek ownership before doing so
Maybe they could direct their casino income to buying all of their cultural sites to preserve them, until that
LOL what? (Score:5, Insightful)
We've never paid any mind to Native Americans before, what makes them think we'll start now?
Re: LOL what? (Score:3)
If we don't bury the remains on the moon, we'll be disrespecting the dead who had that wish. Someone is going to get disrespected.
Re: (Score:2)
If we ever settle the Moon, these traces of ashes will be the least of their worries
Re: (Score:2)
Well then don't disrespect me when my will states that my wishes are to have my ashes dumped right on the presidential seal in the center of the carpet of the Oval Office in the White House.
Don't disrespect me!
Old news. (Score:3)
I read this ages ago on The Onion.
What, again? (Score:3, Insightful)
We already [slashdot.org] talked about this. The proper response should be "Thank you for your interest in space flight, now go do something productive instead of whining for attention. Your religious beliefs do not entitle you to attention or consultation. Have a nice day."
hang up the phone (Score:3)
It's nice they care, but it doesn't matter, things are going to be buried up there in the course of colonizing the moon. It's going to happen one way or another, so they should just accept the writing on the walls and be appreciative we have a backup plan for getting off earth.
Re: (Score:2)
I seriously doubt they made the request in good faith. It was a flex, if only to show clout.
Help me understand (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There is no real upset. It's politics.
Re: Help me understand (Score:2)
It isn't in and of itself. The connotations that it brings forward however may be.
There are many things that are currently considered racist that are only racist because someone then used it as an insult and it propagated as such.
"Chief" predates the "discovery" of North America, yet now that term is considered racist by some unless it's specifically and only used to refer to the leader of an indigenous group in North America.
Re: Help me understand (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Wow it's almost as if words in different contexts mean different things! Language sure is amazing
Coming from a liberal.. (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't get to dibs heavenly bodies. What if I say I dibs the sun and you offend me by looking at it? Literally every single culture on earth has mythology surrounding the moon. I get that we have consistently fucked over the indigenous people as a rule, but being marginalized doesn't make it ok for them to tell literally every other culture in the world to eat shit. Even if the US government agrees, we aren't the only people with space flight. This is unbelievably stupid.
Re:Coming from a liberal.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I get that we have consistently fucked over the indigenous people as a rule, but being marginalized doesn't make it ok for them to tell literally every other culture in the world to eat shit.
Um, yeah, but the problem is that you've trained the last five generations or so of Americans that "being marginalized" actually does give them that right.
I mean welcome, but it's a little late to come to the realization that that is problematic just now ...
Re: (Score:2)
So we're clear - "you don't get dibs on heavenly bodies" means that if you're rich enough, you can dump bead bodies on the moon, but if "every culture on the world" has people who think we should leave the moon alone, they don't count.
That about sum it up?
I also object (Score:3)
These are two private and I assume for-profit companies trying to make this happen but who granted them authority in the first place to that space on the moon. Is that authority internationally recognized? At least any type of scientific payload contributed something back. To me this comes off as a rich family bragging right and you can already put remains in orbit.
Re: (Score:2)
These are two private and I assume for-profit companies trying to make this happen but who granted them authority in the first place to that space on the moon.
And who exactly do you feel is qualified to grant such authority?
Re: (Score:3)
These are two private and I assume for-profit companies trying to make this happen but who granted them authority in the first place to that space on the moon.
Why do they need "authority" to place anything on the moon? They would need authority to operate such 'energetic' equipment near other people, but once the rocket is launched, who is the "authority" to request permission from? Does Namibia have authority over the moon? How about Austria? Maybe France? The United Nations?
Seriously, why is your first instinct to seek authority? Here, let's try this:
You are authorized by your creator to modify the universe in any way you desire regardless of the opinions of ot
Human abuse of resources (Score:3)
Blatant misuse and waste of resources by mankind, in this case moon and earth, including space travel for absurd, if not purely vain purposes, especially with regard to material and energy required, is something that it is absolutely advisable to stop or at least disrupt. If mankind only succeeds in such a disruption by protected minorities putting forward their own absurd concepts against it, then the result is nevertheless favourable.
Nevertheless, humanity should then urgently consider how it can organise itself better in order to prevent such abusive nonsense from happening in the first place.
Re: (Score:2)
plus we're already begining to "dump" stuff on the moon. It start with a symbolic memento, in can quickly degenerate into all kinds of rubbish
Nope. Skip this (Score:3)
But total BS to say that just because you viewed it from affair and never been there, is yours to command
Cultural appropriation by Navajo guy. (Score:3)
Why does a Navajo guy have a Swedish surname (Nygren)? That is cultural appropriation.
https://forebears.io/surnames/... [forebears.io]
Ideas have consequences ... (Score:2)
... you don't really think that primitive cultures are superior, you never have. But you pretended you did.
Good luck with that now. Do you really want to put another tear into that fake Indian's eye [cnn.com], in that 1970s PSA??
Leave "their" moon alone, you hegemons!
Sorry, NO (Score:2)
Sorry but the Navajo Nation doesn't own the fucking Moon and have NO say in what does or doesn't happen there. They have no right to claim to any ownership or control of the Moon. This should have been an article from The Onion.
With that in mind, I hereby declare the entire state of Nevada to be 'sacred' to me, so all you fuckers have to move. It's desecration to live on my sacred land so pack your shit and hit the road.
That's no different than what the Navajo Nation is doing with regard to the Moon, excep
NASA should listen! (Score:2)
And the astronauts should start wearing spacesuits with silver and turquoise belt buckles! Yippee-Ki-Yay, Motherfuckers!
Every dig (Score:2)
Oh my God (Score:3)
This is stupid beyond belief (Score:2)
...and skeptical observers suspect it may have a whiff of extortion, as the tribes demand some sort of cleverly named payment to shut up
Facepalm (Score:2)
If the Navaho tribe owns the moon, sure, it's their property. But they don't
But the whole concept of religion based sacredness, means that humans
With all due respect.... (Score:2)
With all due respect to the Navajo, fuck them. The moon doesn't belong just to them. They can't claim it as their own. The moon isn't their Vatican! And someone needs to remind them that the Apollo missions left bags of shit and piss on the surface of the moon! I wonder what they think about that? Perhaps the Navajo nation can fund the mission to collect that!
Re: (Score:3)
First Amendment Establishment Clause [wikipedia.org]. Sorry Chief. You get no special favors based on your religions beliefs.
Someone's gonna die there eventually. (Score:2)
And this is just silly, anyone can make a belief up then use it as an excuse to object to something. Why are people allowed to be extra-indignant if they invoke religion?
Ooh! Ooh! I know! (Score:2)
Let's bury the ashes in the astronomical reserve on Mauna Kea, where the dry remains of one haole will not be controversial. Then we issue Elon Musk a contract to put the Thirty Meter telescope on the Moon. This will of course add a few years to the schedule, but the improved seeing will be worth it.
Re: It bares repeating (Score:3)
Property rights only exist for those willing to protect land from invaders. So, dump away. No lunar colonies with armed soldiers yet.
Re: (Score:2)
if I had literal bear arms then I wouldn't need a gun, just smack them with my huge claws.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Everyone is posting so predictably like the privileged colonist capitalists
Is there anything more predictable then some angry inch bitching about capitalists on Slashdot?
Re: (Score:2)
A lot of comments here seem to question the sincerity or validity of the complaint. The Navajo Nation deserves the benefit of the doubt and deserves the ability to raise the issue. In my limited experience Native American tribes are very spiritual, and truly think about relationships with nature in the same way you might think about relationships with your immediate family.
How would you feel if cockroaches were going to turn your grandma into a roach graveyard?
None of this will stop progress but it is important to understand and appreciate everyone's perspective. You don't appreciate Native Americans because you don't understand them, not really. I suspect we have something to learn from their respect for nature, we have something to learn by treating nature like family instead of just resources to exploit.
Well, it seems if humanities presence in the form of ashes on the moon are a desecration, we have to attempt to understand why.
Because if it is, actual humans being there in any form is an abomination - and we already performed that abomination decades ago, and are impacting it to the present day. It's a dead lock there is plenty of human DNA there.
So it is really a question of can a religion enforce itself on the entire scientific system. This is not dissimilar to the Hawaiian so called "natives" ob
Re: (Score:2)
There's one significant difference with Mauna Kea: the aboriginals have actually been there and could potentially set up shop there again. Claiming ownership at least has some sort of meaning. Protesting telescopes is really stupid though, IMO -- investigating the nature of reality from the best vantage point available should be an honorable activity. If they built factories up there, I could see the "desecration" argument because you can build factories anywhere and they leave a mess behind.
Contrast that w