The Biggest Problem With Lab-Grown Chicken Is Growing the Chicken (bloomberg.com) 74
Ten years ago, a Dutch scientist unveiled a $330,000 lab-grown hamburger made from cow cells grown in petri dishes. It took six weeks to culture the patty. A chef cooked it onstage as journalists watched. Reactions ranged from "unpleasant" to "beeflike." The scientist expected supermarket sales in a decade. His company and others have since raised over $2 billion but have little to show, only recently making one pound of chicken monthly. Despite bold promises of mass production, low emissions, and better nutrition, commercial viability remains elusive. Bloomberg Business: The company [Upside Foods], in a letter from its attorney to Bloomberg Businessweek, says plans for scaling up have been an evolution saddled with "realities and complexities of doing something that has never been done before. Innovation rarely happens in a straight and continuous line."
The dream is moist, meaty flesh self-multiplying ad infinitum in high-tech, stainless steel cell-growing chambers. But according to internal company documentation and eight former employees, most of whom requested anonymity because they don't have permission to discuss confidential information, Upside at the moment is actually growing just minuscule numbers of chicken skin-type cells in small plastic bottles, then scraping them out gram by gram to compress and mold them into a single forkful of flesh. This labor-intensive chicken has higher levels of cholesterol and lead than the real thing, publicly available company documentation shows. Even if that sounds remotely desirable, some scientists say the whole energy-intensive endeavor may actually be worse for the environment, especially with chicken, which has the smallest carbon footprint of anything at the local butcher. All of which points to this question: Why exactly are we chasing lab-grown chicken?[...]
The dream is moist, meaty flesh self-multiplying ad infinitum in high-tech, stainless steel cell-growing chambers. But according to internal company documentation and eight former employees, most of whom requested anonymity because they don't have permission to discuss confidential information, Upside at the moment is actually growing just minuscule numbers of chicken skin-type cells in small plastic bottles, then scraping them out gram by gram to compress and mold them into a single forkful of flesh. This labor-intensive chicken has higher levels of cholesterol and lead than the real thing, publicly available company documentation shows. Even if that sounds remotely desirable, some scientists say the whole energy-intensive endeavor may actually be worse for the environment, especially with chicken, which has the smallest carbon footprint of anything at the local butcher. All of which points to this question: Why exactly are we chasing lab-grown chicken?[...]
Re: Why exactly are we chasing lab-grown chicken.. (Score:2)
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Which came first?
The chicken or the beaker.....?
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Ah....the age old question.
Which came first?
The chicken or the beaker.....?
The rooster came first.
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How hard can it be to fake "tastes like chicken"? A month or so back I went to a vegan restaurant (it was a one-off, and she was hot) and had some sort of vegan chicken substitute and... it did actually taste and feel like chicken. I was quite surprised, if it hadn't been a vegan restaurant I'd have sworn it was chicken.
So if they're making one pound of their stuff a month they're not doing terribly well.
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it's more about VC funding chasing a solution that's in turn chasing a problem. it's telling that there all these vegan/vegetarian options that are designed to mimic meat. they taste worse, are worse for you, and more expensive to boot.
but this is slashdot, where technology is fetishized over common sense. and new is always more gooder.
Re: Why exactly are we chasing lab-grown chicken.. (Score:4, Informative)
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Because.... *theoretically* you can have actual meat that feeds your brain, without the animal killing. You do realize you need animal protein for brain development, right? I mean there's a whole branch of evolutionary biology dedicated to that....
That makes zero sense. Which protein? Which animals have it? How does that even work after we digest all the protein we consume, and that's after breaking it down with heat for Christ's sake. So is it some component of some protein that we get from breaking other proteins down? Explain again why this is only present in ALL animal meat, but not human meat? Would you die of some nutritional deficit if the only meat you ate was ostrich, because how do you know that animal has THAT protein you're making up?
Acce
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I thought this was more about the animals
Perhaps. But the vegans I know have no interest in vat meat.
The plant-based meat alternatives for beef and pork are subpar, but plant-based chicken is pretty good.
I'm not sure there's a market for vat meat even if it could be reasonably priced. Who are the potential customers?
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I thought this was more about the animals
Perhaps. But the vegans I know have no interest in vat meat.
The plant-based meat alternatives for beef and pork are subpar, but plant-based chicken is pretty good.
I'm not sure there's a market for vat meat even if it could be reasonably priced. Who are the potential customers?
Right now chicken breasts are $2/pound at the supermarket. They'd have to charge a lot less than that to be viable
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For sure the process has to scale but the potential is there for it to be cheaper than actual chicken since actual animals require quite a lot of energy in terms of feed, housing, labor and processing to get from egg to plate. There are a lot of production advantages to a lab grown system, the whole process is just not there yet.
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For sure the process has to scale but the potential is there for it to be cheaper than actual chicken since actual animals require quite a lot of energy in terms of feed, housing, labor and processing to get from egg to plate. There are a lot of production advantages to a lab grown system, the whole process is just not there yet.
It would have to be a pretty good process to profitably produce fake chicken for less than $2/pound.
And how much lower would it have to be for non-vegans to even consider it?
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And how much lower would it have to be for non-vegans to even consider it?
Less than $2 per pound, assuming all else equal, especially if the price is consistent whereas livestock price can vary quite a bit in and out of season.
It also can be a little higher considering the ethical questions. We are talking the lowest of the low price here. Some chicken can be $2 a pound but better quality, free range, better fed, better cared for chicken can cost sometimes double that price.
These things don't have to displace all chicken consumption. Just 20% would make a huge sea shift in how
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Whole chickens here are regularly on sale from between $0.89-$0.99/lb.
That's gonna be hard to beat with all that lab equipment, chemicals, lab techs and power required for the "va
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And by the same logic similar things were said about cars when horses were the primary means of transport. You're saying with all the metal, energy, labor and technology that goes into an automobile will scale faster than just breeding and feeding a horse? The same reason super highly processed foods in general are widely the cheapest options for people versus more "natural" foods are costlier, despite all the equipment, chemicals, lab techs and power required to "process" the food.
Considering the advanta
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And by the same logic similar things were said about cars when horses were the primary means of transport. You're saying with all the metal, energy, labor and technology that goes into an automobile will scale faster than just breeding and feeding a horse?
Terrible analogy. Cars and horses have very different utility.
I agree it doesn't have to displace all meat. I doubt it will displace much at all. Instead it might be an option for the vegans, depending on how much crap they put in them. That's a new market
As far as "scaled, controlled factory process", they already have one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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How so?
I find I can eat VERY well and cheaper, by shopping on the outside if the grocery store where the veggies, meats and such are located vs the interior aisles where the processed food is kept.
I noticed this when I was a very broke college student...I could much longer stretch my food dollar shopping that way and cooking myself than the processed bullshit in the c
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I find I can eat VERY well and cheaper, by shopping on the outside if the grocery store where the veggies, meats and such are located vs the interior aisles where the processed food is kept.
I noticed this when I was a very broke college student...I could much longer stretch my food dollar shopping that way and cooking myself than the processed bullshit in the center....
This depends a lot on location. Red Delicious apples (the bottom of the barrel as far as widespread commercial versions go) runs almost $2/lb in Dallas, TX. Bananas aren't bad at around a quarter each, but oranges and most vegetables are $3+ per pound. The local Tom Thumb (Albertson's alternate brand) sells chicken breasts on a buy one, get two free basis, but even with that and careful selection, it's about $4/lb. I can get a whole chicken cheaper per pound, but I also have to know how to carve and cook it
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If you shop and buy what's on sale each week, you can get significantly better deals on things.
That's how I've always shopped, even after I started making real money.
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You have clearly never raised a horse. Nor do you have any idea of the time and effort that went into building and maintaining the infrastructure required to move people and cargo around using horses and wagons. To give you an idea a light working horse likely eats 20 pounds of hay and 5 pounds of grain per day, and you likely to have to worry about removing roughly that amount of waste per day as well. On top of that horses need to be shod, cared for, and you need the tack and equipment to make them use
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I thought this was more about the animals
Perhaps. But the vegans I know have no interest in vat meat.
The plant-based meat alternatives for beef and pork are subpar, but plant-based chicken is pretty good.
I'm not sure there's a market for vat meat even if it could be reasonably priced. Who are the potential customers?
Right now chicken breasts are $2/pound at the supermarket. They'd have to charge a lot less than that to be viable
Ask yourself why are people vegan or vegetarian. How many would consume meat if it were possible to do so without the inhumane treatment and living conditions? Vat meat promises "real" meat without an animal losing its life. This kind of moral superiority could support a price similar to organic meat. Is this a large enough niche to become financially viable?
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I'm not sure there's a market for vat meat even if it could be reasonably priced. Who are the potential customers?
Pretty much the majority of westerners who consume a meat heavy diet but who probably deep down do in fact have some moral issues with the way we mass raise animals to meet demand and price. There's that segment who isn't swayed enough to go vegan but who would also like to see animals treated with a bit more dignity, at least that's my view.
I don't have a moral issue with raising animals for meat in general but I think the huge demand we have for it drives the production into a realm that would be consid
Probably because it's easiest (Score:2)
Probably because chicken seemed like the easiest meat to do first.
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What kind of cuck cares about animals?
If you care about animals, stop eating them.
If you don't eat animals, you are not part of this conversation.
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In theory, vegetarians DO like the taste and texture of meat, and some of them were converted somewhat against their will, such as by marrying an ardent vegetarian. Such people might indeed appreciate an alternative form of meat that doesn't involve killing animals.
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The constituency is quite wide: there are quite a few varieties of mental illness.
What did you expect? (Score:2)
It's a perfect example how deluded some pro-green circles are when it comes to artificial replacements of what nature can produce on a whim.
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It's a tech that will allow for better, cheaper meat. And it's not a question of if the tech will be possible, but when. This company is just going for early mover status, and so of course it's not going to revolutionize the meat industry right away.
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>better
how on earth do you figure that?
wouldn't growing this garbage in a lab yield a product on par with veal ? (which is a totally separate issue/product.) i don't want my chicken thighs to have the texture of veal. do they have a mechanism for stimulating the muscle tissue while it's growing in the vat?
>cheaper
chicken is already quite efficient in terms of space and cost (even discounting battery farms)
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chicken is already quite efficient in terms of space and cost (even discounting battery farms)
There's literally a chicken farm about ten miles to the east of me, up on the Cumberland plateau. It's going to be a massive chicken farm once the expansion is complete. The loan to secure that expansion is backed by the Federal Government. No chicken farmer will argue you this, the reason chicken is cheap in the US is because of the US Federal Government.
And that also gets into the hedge industry is looking towards with lab chicken. Federal Government has gotten recently a bit wishy washy on subsidies.
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Chicken isn't that cheap, sadly. I miss $0.10 wings.
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Well, wings got $$ because they got so popular...it isn't from shortage that's for sure.
But aside from wings....down here, chicken can readily be found whole from between $0.89-$0.99/lb.
Where do you live and how much is it up there?
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Well, wings got $$ because they got so popular...it isn't from shortage that's for sure.
But aside from wings....down here, chicken can readily be found whole from between $0.89-$0.99/lb.
Where do you live and how much is it up there?
Se united States. Depends on the cut but even thighs and legs are going to be more than that at a supermarket.
I can tell you that frozen tenderloins at the local Walmart are around $3.50/lb or more in bulk. If you buy fresh you're paying more.
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To add to the data, I checked the local Aldi for their prices which are typically quite low. Just looking at the boneless cuts of chickrn:
Bulk breasts: $2.29/lb
Thigha: $2.99/lb
Breasts: $3.49/lb
Tenderloins: $3.99/lb
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You get significantly better prices for less processed meats....buy a whole chicken, it takes all of 5 minutes to cut it up yourself.
Pro green isn't really pushing this (Score:2)
Honestly modern factory farms produce such low quality meat I doubt it could be any worse than lab grown. I'm vegetarian because I've never liked meat, but even when I did eat the stuff I'd shy away from some of the stuff I've seen online of late.
Why? Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
To avoid the animal suffering in corporate industrial farming. How did editor get the idea carbon was the goal? I guess if they pull that off, low-carbon chicken opens a new market among people who care more about carbon footprint than animal suffering. Did anyone read why there's lead in the lab-chicken-meat?
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Simply put, far more people care about global warming than they do about the ethics of slaughtering an animal for consumption or even (going by sales) the results of industrial farming.
It's just smart marketing on their part.
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Problem is, chicken is a poor protein because among the meat proteins it's already the lowest consumption. It's extremely feed efficient with 1.8:1 (1.8lbs of feed for 1lb of meat), and requires the least amount of land and water to grow.
You want to reduce carbon, substitutes for beef are required - this is because its requirements are high - it's has poor conversion (9 lbs of feed for 1 lb of meat), takes up huge tracts of lands and water. Reducing beef consumption would greatly reduce emissions.
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Problem is, chicken is a poor protein because among the meat proteins it's already the lowest consumption. It's extremely feed efficient with 1.8:1 (1.8lbs of feed for 1lb of meat), and requires the least amount of land and water to grow.
You want to reduce carbon, substitutes for beef are required - this is because its requirements are high - it's has poor conversion (9 lbs of feed for 1 lb of meat), takes up huge tracts of lands and water. Reducing beef consumption would greatly reduce emissions.
Problem is, chicken is a poor protein because among the meat proteins it's already the lowest consumption.
This depends greatly on the country. The following numbers are from 2020.
- US per capita meat consumption is 149 kg per year, of which 58 kg is poultry (mostly chicken), 37 kg is beef, 40 kg is pork, and 22 kg is fish and seafood.
- Portugal has similar total consumption, but consumes 40 kg, 19 kg, 38 kg, and 59 kg, respectively.
- Spain is 33/12/52/40.
- Argentina is 46/47/14/7.
- Brazil is 48/35/14/8.
- China is 15/7/36/40.
- Japan is 22/10/22/47.
- Germany is 18/15/44/13
- World average is 16/9/14/20.
The world a
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Problem is this is new tech and so they are going after the easiest results so they can make a viable product for the market to fund future endeavors.
Give me a frick'n break with your lesson on feed to food efficiencies. All youve done is basically repeated what the above said so if my head was completely up my ass I would have already gotten my lesson.
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Did anyone read why there's lead in the lab-chicken-meat?
Probably just contamination from the lead researcher. Sometimes those cells get cloned in there too by mistake.
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Anyone pushing that angle hasn't really looked at the market size of the intersection of "vegans intent on eliminating animal suffering" and "people who INSIST on eating meat and can't be happy with a plant based diet".
It's not very big.
I suspect the reality is that these efforts are driven by two things:
1. "Because we can" from scientists who genuinely want to see their research turn into something on a shelf.
2. A belief that over time, scaling and technology improvement will make it better and cheaper tha
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"Because we can" from scientists who genuinely want to see their research turn into something on a shelf.
I believe that there is quite a separation between "because we can" and seeing one's efforts turn into products on a shelf. The "because we can" crowd are the types that build a ship in a bottle, an artificial challenge imposed on themselves to prove some some combination of skill and patience. These efforts can turn into products on a shelf on a small scale, and remain as a small scale product precisely because of the skill and patience involved.
The people that want to see their efforts turn into some ma
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Carbon emissions are a far more serious and important issue than the quality of life my food receives no matter how much I agree that they shouldn't be suffering.
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To avoid the animal suffering in corporate industrial farming.
"Nature is red in tooth and claw."
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Many vegetarians oppose the eating of meat on the grounds that raising animals for slaughter has a large carbon footprint. It's not JUST because they care about the welfare of animals.
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"To avoid the animal suffering in corporate industrial farming."
Free range organic chicken is already available.
Why ask why? (Score:3)
Why? It's a science fiction thing for people living on Mars. See also robot flying cars and autodocs.
On and ultra-vegans, who find secular but massive sin in real meat. I recall some objections to lab grown meat -- it cake from a real animal at some point, even if humanely harvested. And the farthest out there objected because of something like evolutionary behavioral memory of meat eating viciousness being exercised. That's my formulation of a confused description, and it took decades to develop.
i always heard that (Score:3)
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the chicken comes from a chicken egg, that might be a good place to start
Nope, I'm pretty sure that first the chicken egg comes from the chicken.
Better Off Ted ... (Score:2)
Reactions ranged from "unpleasant" to "beeflike."
From Better Off Ted [wikipedia.org], (S1E2) Heroes [fandom.com]: Tastes like despair [youtube.com]:
Jerome: [tasting lab-grown meat] It tastes familiar.
Ted: Beef?
Jerome: No.
Linda: Chicken? We'll take chicken.
Ted: What does it taste like?
Jerome: Despair.
Ted: Is it possible it just needs salt?
Why are we chasing lab grown chicken? (Score:1)
To get to the other side.
Obligatory... (Score:2)
Another problem: the Hayflick limit (Score:2)
So there's this [nih.gov]; this [gfi.org] (which also mentions genetic drift); and this [sciencedirect.com] (where the authors skip directly from "muscle stem cells biopsied from one li
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If you can generate stem cells, you wouldn't need "cancer".
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Edible protein on Mars (Score:2)
I watched a YouTube video recently from Scott Manley on space food, and how it has developed over time. I can't find it again right now but there's plenty out there about the problems of feeding humans in space. A science fiction vision on this comes from The Martian by Andy Weir, where people could live reasonably healthy lives on vegetable matter alone. It would be a monotonous and miserable existence but survivable.
To make life on Mars, or any place beyond Earth orbit, something people would more than
Why exactly are we chasing lab-grown chicken? (Score:2)
To make a small portion of the population feel better.
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Or maybe, to make a buck off the small portion of the population that wants to feel better.
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is it really sustainable to market to fad followers and the mentally ill?
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Who said anything about sustainable? Ride the wave of the fad up, get out of Dodge when the fad dries up. You know, kind of like crypto...
The irrelevant problem and the relevant problem (Score:2)
The irrelevant problems were addressed and reported on, but relevant problems weren't.
Also, if I wanted to eat something, and hamburger was my first choice but wasn't available, my second choice wouldn't be "scientists say this, arguably, is a hamburger." Even if I'm dying for a hamburger but circumstances leave me to choose from ordering from a menu at a vegan restaurant of dishes I'd never tasted and the Mad Science Grey Area Meat I'd go with the former. I'd at least have a clue what the ingredients rese
suffer duffer (Score:2)
to head-chop a few hundred kale-ghnosherz and dispense with wasted breath.
Soilent yellow is Chicken! (Score:2)
Well, except for Soilent Green. Not sure if that will get regulatory permission in the western world this decade. And of course, that's not lab grown.
But, based on the pseudo ScFi T.V. series, Eureka, we have to be extra careful of no side effects for lab grow meat. I mean, who wants to become dumb from food?
(Eureka, season 2, episode 8)
I say skip the existing animals, chickens, cows, sheep for cloning meat, let's go whole hog, (with no pig involved), and c