Frying Pan Company Sued for Claiming Temperatures That Rival the Sun (theverge.com) 124
Can you heat up a pan to 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit? That's the burning question at the center of this proposed class action lawsuit, which claims the advertising for SharkNinja's nonstick cookware violates the laws of physics and thermodynamics. From a report: While SharkNinja is the company best known for its Shark robovacs and Ninja kitchen gadget, this lawsuit takes issue with the Ninja NeverStick Premium Cookware collection, a line of pots and pans it advertises as having superior nonsticking and nonflaking qualities thanks to its manufacturing process.
Instead of making its pans at a measly 900-degree temperature that other brands use, SharkNinja says it heats up the cookware to a maximum of 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit. That process, according to SharkNinja, fuses "plasma ceramic particles" to the surface of the pan, "creating a super-hard, textured surface that interlocks with our exclusive coating for a superior bond." But Patricia Brown, the person who filed this lawsuit, isn't buying it. As cited in Brown's lawsuit, NASA recently said the "surface of the Sun is a blisteringly hot 10,340 degrees Fahrenheit," meaning SharkNinja's manufacturing process reaches about three times that temperature.
Instead of making its pans at a measly 900-degree temperature that other brands use, SharkNinja says it heats up the cookware to a maximum of 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit. That process, according to SharkNinja, fuses "plasma ceramic particles" to the surface of the pan, "creating a super-hard, textured surface that interlocks with our exclusive coating for a superior bond." But Patricia Brown, the person who filed this lawsuit, isn't buying it. As cited in Brown's lawsuit, NASA recently said the "surface of the Sun is a blisteringly hot 10,340 degrees Fahrenheit," meaning SharkNinja's manufacturing process reaches about three times that temperature.
Nonsticks are disposable and overrated (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, no matter what the brand or make if it's sold as "nonstick" chances are eventually it will start to be just a "stick" pan and really, they are of limited use anyway, at least in my opinion.
The main thing I have a nonstick for is eggs, especially omelets and for that i tend to find the el-cheapo straight up teflon coated pans work great and then just get a new one when it eventually stops working which they will even when I baby them; no high heat, no metal tools, no dishwasher, no abrasives.
Everything else can be accomplished with decent stainless pans or seasoned cast iron or an enameled cast like a Le Cruset, all of which can be very nonstick with proper techniques.
Re:Nonsticks are disposable and overrated (Score:5, Insightful)
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Not typically in your body. Most of it come off during scrubbing in the wash.
Because people don't know how to wash their pots and pans.
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Errr no, that's not how coatings work.
Re:Nonsticks are disposable and overrated (Score:4, Informative)
It really is - nothing stays 100% where you put it. Abrasion, chemical reactions, etc. all pull coatings into the things you're cooking.
hotter than sun isn't hard to do (Score:2)
Things like laser plasmas , ion beans and even ultrasonic cavitation produce temperatures hotter than sun in micro environments.
If your deposition process uses such extremes it's plausible it creates adhesions beyond normal coatings and thus perhaps more durable. The latter of course isn't assured
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It may be more durable, but unless you're talking single-crystal diamond, it *will* get scratched over time, and the resulting dust will end up in our food.
Re:Nonsticks are disposable and overrated (Score:4, Interesting)
The bonus part of this non-stick transition is that all of that 'whatever it is' is going into your body.
So I heard. The argument, though, is that if you use a traditional pan then you get a whole load of really interesting nasty carbon chemistry and that goes into your body instead and is likely to be worse on average. Any actual evidence on doses would be nice, but then again why spoil a nice internet "discussion" with evidence.
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You will burn your food in a non-stick too. If you're really terrified of carbon-based chemicals then stick with boiled or steamed food. That or get yourself cremated I guess, since you're full of carbon too.
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You will burn your food in a non-stick too. If you're really terrified of carbon-based chemicals then stick with boiled or steamed food. That or get yourself cremated I guess, since you're full of carbon too.
You can, but since it's less likely to stick when you move it, you're more likely to burn it less. It's all meant to be a trade off, which means you should make the choice based on actual data, which seems to be lacking. I did a little research trying to work out if you can restore a non stick frying pan and realised that a) the risk from a scratch is probably overrated and b) none of the restoring chemicals seems to be officially tested and they seem to be complete con jobs. Avoid. Personally I prefer cast
Re: Nonsticks are disposable and overrated (Score:2)
The argument, supported by evidence, is cooking in iron pans reduces anemia. There are even "lucky fish" made out of iron you can add to your food.
So yeah you can get necessary minerals from cookware. What carbon compounds are you talking about?
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In my case this was 100% true. I could remove the coating on my Ninja Neverstick's with a spatula. I assumed there would be a recall or some warranty I could take advantage of but never bothered to look.
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I recently went all out and bought a nice set of stacking pots for camping.
Magma Products, A10-366-CB-2-IN... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C... [amazon.com]
I paid extra for the ceramic non-stick coating. I hope they don't suck because it's a lot of money for camping pots.
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Are you using them for like camping-camping, like over an open fire? The main thing that kills nonstick is overly high heat so if you are keep en eye out on how they hold up, shoot over a review on amazon. Interesting test case.
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Yes, open fire. It will make the outsides tend to get covered in soot, and they won't be so beautiful, but that's how it goes. I paid extra for the blue ones compared to the exposed stainless ones, hoping they will be easier to clean up.
At any rate, my first chance to use them will be next weekend. I'll post a review once I have enough experience with them.
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Coating the outside of the pants with dish soap and allowing it to dry will help reduce but not eliminate the blackening on the outside of the pans. That washes off, of course, the first time you scrub the pans. The biggest thing is to cook over coals instead of flame.
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Are you using them for like camping-camping, like over an open fire? The main thing that kills nonstick is overly high heat so if you are keep en eye out on how they hold up, shoot over a review on amazon. Interesting test case.
But, but, "overly high heat" is supposed to be three times the temperature of the sun.
On the other hand, people can be very stupid but anyone who actually believes that ridiculous claim probably has difficulty walking and talking at the same time (chewing gum is sooo out).
Re:Nonsticks are disposable and overrated (Score:5, Insightful)
While I can appreciate your well-seasoned argument here for alternative materials, let's not overlook the obvious here. Liars are still lying. Marketing and the bullshit pimps that work in that industry, are overrated. And I hope this lawsuit hits like Mike Tyson.
Lying is something we need to actually appreciate punishing again. Otherwise consumers won't even know where to find truth anymore. Soon they won't even remember why they should value it.
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All thin lightweight pans are hard to control heat and burn, which causes the sticking, too easily. Unless you are frail get cast iro
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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You're not wrong, but cast iron takes discipline and effort to maintain. I can see people thinking they're not worth the trouble, particularly if they don't cook a lot or they've "ruined" a cast iron pan in the past.
It's a lot easier to "season" a stainless pan every once in a while and as long as you let it heat up before cooking, it'll consistently work better than a 3-month-old non-stick pan, which I'm guessing translates to "as good as non-stick" for most of us.
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By 'discipline' you mean any level of physical effort beyond a dishwasher.
I suppose so, but what kind of crazy person would put cast iron in the dishwasher?
Really, there are at least as many ways to maintain cast iron as there are people who use them. If some one does less than you, they're not doing it right. If someone does more than you, they're making things harder than necessary. Whatever their maintenance routine, it's still more effort that you put into any other pan and any neglect will ultimately result in even more work. A lot more than the people who presumably jus
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Indeed, no real chef uses non-stick. Use cast iron or even cheap thin metal pans, they are perfect. Before using them, just use salt and a piece of paper towel to scrub the dry pan, dump the salt then, put in some oil then a tiny tiny amount of salt with your finger evenly spread across the surface which will act as "ball bearings" preventing sticking. Nothing will stick, eggs, crepes suzette, etc. That's what real French chefs do!
When you are done cooking your eggs, just wipe the pan with a paper towel, ad
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Because it's foolproof for this specific function and I find all those things for something like, a french omelet which has to be cooked low and slow and is rather delicate a simple nonstick gives me better results. I have 3 cast iron pans and a griddle and i use them all the time but they're heavy and take longer to get to temp./
The heat never goes above medium-low and the omelet slides out so its easy to fold out of the pan. If Jacques Pepin is fine using a nonstick for eggs why should i be snoot about
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Except the oldest and still best of nonstick pans: cast iron. With a non-stick coating that will self-repair from most damage, and is easily manually repaired in the case of more serious damage.
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Everything else can be accomplished with decent stainless pans or seasoned cast iron or an enameled cast like a Le Cruset, all of which can be very nonstick with proper techniques.
The proper technique to get an omelette not to stick is to use lots and lots of oil.
Watch a professional chef sometime. It's edifying how they don't stint on oil.
(number two tip is to put no scratches into the pan).
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Some of us don't want tons of oil in our food. That has its own negative side effects.
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Stainless steel works better for eggs.
Thin layer of oil (we use macedamia) and no sticking but the eggs have to beaten. Unbeaten eggs will stick.
Stainless pan on an induction takes 30secs to heat and virtually no cleanup and will last decades.
Much easier to take care of than cast iron.
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If you get a fresh teflon coated pan they are legit nonstick, like, heat an egg from cold and it will legit slide out in the as-seen-on-TV style. Issue is they won't last in that form forever, which is fine, as long as that's understood. It's why I wouldn't pay a ton of money for a nonstick, it's just not going to last, even as useful as it is.
And yeah, it's silly for them to say that when with the right heat and some fat a stainless pan will also be nonstick. While the teflon pan can certainly be forgiv
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Do you mean young vs old eggs?
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> cheap eggs are 'frothy' and stick to everything so it's important to have good eggs
I'll bet this has more to do with the age of the eggs. The print the Julian date the eggs were packed on the side of the carton in the US, find the carton with the highest number.
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It's not easy but I have learned to cook omelettes in a plain stainless pan
It's not easy but I fixed my broken leg with a stick and some rope, and I'm sending this message to you by morse coding it to someone who doesn't also hate technological developments, and because I too am a masochist.
I'm too busy cooking amazing food to screw around with poor tools.
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WTF is a "cheap egg"?
Where I come from, the "cheap" eggs are smaller: you pay more as they get larger. It seems weird that small eggs would stick more than extra larges.
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I live in the middle of farm country. The eggs at the store are almost as fresh as the eggs from my neighbour down the street, and all of them cost about the same no matter whether I buy them from a dude with 4 chickens in his back yard or a large chain grocery in town. All of them make perfectly fine omelettes, I just have to put a tiny bit of olive oil and butter in the pan and let it get up to temperature. Maybe your grocery stores are trucking in eggs from outer nowhere, which would make sense; I *live*
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This is my experience as well. As long as the pan is hot enough to cook the egg as it goes in instead of sitting cold in the pan, they don't stick. We've tossed all our nonstick pans and use 3-layer stainless/aluminum/stainless now. I expect those'll last the rest of my life.
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Because cleaning a non-stick pan with a wash cloth and absolutely minimal effort is all you need, provided you are never stupid enough to use metal utensils on it. No need to season or re-season. For anything that doesn't require a sear non-stick is largely superior. Stainless is for if you cook a lot of high acidity foods but still need the high heat, and carbon steel/cast iron for everything else.
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The thing is, seasoning cast iron isn't a big deal. If you use them right, the seasoning is reinforced each time you use it.
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Right up until you cook a high acidity food, especially if it's a slow cook.
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Right up until you cook a high acidity food, especially if it's a slow cook.
Sure, the seasoning can be ruined by a number of actions, but then you need only give it a good scrub, and recreate the seasoning in the oven. Not that big of a deal.
In my opinion, the only downside to cast iron cookware is the weight of the things.
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That scenario is better handled by stainless steel or ceramic coated cookware. It also doesn't tend to get food stuck on the cookware as long as you don't burn it. Of course, that scenario also typically calls for a different shaped cookware so it would be a separate pot anyway. Or just use a crockpot.
But if you do end up cooking something like that in cast iron, just wipe it out, heat it until it smokes to drive the acid out, then while it's hot wipe it with oil and smoke it again.
Recompiling the Linux kernel (Score:2)
On this forum many have asserted that linux internals and settings are not hard to manage. Ha. Fiddly things like cast iron and Linux may be truly superior when used skillfully are not for most folks.
Just saying (Score:2)
Re:Just saying (Score:5, Informative)
It's plasma spray coating. For some ceramics, you do actually need a 30,000 degree plasma arc to ensure the ceramic powder is fully melted in the short time it's actually in the plasma before being sprayed onto the metal where it cools and bonds.
It's not a new or spectacular process. It's a marketing idiot who confused the temperature of the plasma for the temperature the pan would be subjected to. Whether it's ignorance or deceit is impossible to tell from the story.
Re:Just saying (time and heat) (Score:4, Insightful)
Technically, it probably is being subjected to that temperature for a small fraction of a second.
The confusion here is "temperature vs heat." You can have incredibly high temperatures in things like plasma, but the moment a thin plasma touches a solid surface, it transfers that very small amount of heat to the metal, without any real damage.
If you wave your hand quickly through a candle flame, for a fraction of a second you're subjecting your skin to 2500 F or so - without harm. If you move a stick through that same flame at a slower speed, you'll coat the stick with a thin layer of soot - without catching the stick on fire.
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It's plasma spray coating. For some ceramics, you do actually need a 30,000 degree plasma arc to ensure the ceramic powder is fully melted in the short time it's actually in the plasma before being sprayed onto the metal where it cools and bonds.
It's not a new or spectacular process. It's a marketing idiot who confused the temperature of the plasma for the temperature the pan would be subjected to.
(Typical legal response) "If it wasn't a pan being subjected to a 30,000 degree plasma arc to adhere a ceramic coating to, then what exactly was it?"
Maybe that marketing 'idiot', is a lawyer.
Refund (Score:3)
So take your pan in for a refund and shut the fuck up.
Next case!
Re:Refund (Score:4, Insightful)
So take your pan in for a refund and shut the fuck up.
Next case!
Ah, now thats the spirit! Just the kind of attitude the real harm peddlers are looking for in their calculated class-action suits.
They're going to rely on that utter lack of give-a-shit even when someone you care about dies. Remember that in case you might give a shit about perspective.
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You know that's a textbook example of a logical fallacy, right? The poster is saying that the lawsuit in this case is stupid because it doesn't actually matter if the claim is true or not - there's no harm here.
You say, "Well, if things were different such that there was harm, it damn sure would matter!" and nobody is asserting that to be untrue.
By extending the argument to the other case, you're the one that lost perspective.
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If the claim doesn't matter, why make it?
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I know you're just doubling-down on the fallacy, but I'll address it anyway. The lawsuit doesn't talk about anything related to safety or harm. They're not even claiming to know definitively that the process doesn't do what Ninja is claiming - they only wave their hands with it as "breaking the laws of thermodynamics", an unsubstantiated claim of their own.
Dragging historical non-stick pans into the discussion, and glyphosate, and all the other shit you're throwing at it STILL means you lost perspective. Yo
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The lawsuit appears to be about a manufacturer lying. Plain and simple. Being utterly dismissive of this kind of lawsuit, even when it merely involves egregious claims, enables the real harm peddlers to become even more bold in their calculated response to manufacturing known harm in exchange for profit.
And we have yet to see if this product will actually cause harm. That remains to be seen and/or proven. Just like the first-generation "amaaaaazing" non-stick cookware did. What else did they lie about?
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The lawsuit appears to be about a manufacturer lying.
But plasmas can easily reach 30,000F (17,000 K), that's not impossible nor does it violate any laws of thermodynamics. Even your overhead fluorescent light has an electron temperature of ~11,000 Kelvin, nearly twice the temperature of the surface of the sun. That's not even terrible energetic temperature for a plasma.
So, no, although it is written to sound "wow", the claim is not unlikely.
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The lawsuit does claim otherwise. And sure, you bring a valid point. But one that is not usually demonstrated in marketing. The strength of a car door isn't usually advertised by the plasma cutter making it. Especially when no oven or stove goes to 30,000 degrees. Not even sure what the hell the manufacturer was bragging about. That violates every law of cooking food. Also known as what a cooking pan exists for.
I'd rather suggest a counter-suit to simply fire the marketing team that might get away with
Surface of Sun? (Score:2)
The whole surface of the sun schtick is a bit besides the point...
Steel vaporizes at 2,862ÂC (5,184ÂF) ffs. 30kÂF??? Lol, at those temps they would just be making plasma.
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The whole surface of the sun schtick is a bit besides the point...
Really? Is it? And what proof do you have? No, I mean actual proof. What physical evidence can you bring forth that the sun actually exceeds a manufacturers claims?
As you can see, a fucked legal system can and will argue otherwise. Effectively, and likely with legal precedent to reference too. IANAL and I can see that writing on the wall.
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Seems to me they aren't claiming they heat the whole pan to 30,000 degrees. I cook meat on my konro grill to 130F, even though the heat source is 1000F. If it's doing what they claim, it's probably only the first few atoms that are involved.
The surface of the sun is not the hottest thing. (Score:2)
Lot's of things a "hotter than the surface of the sun". Light bulbs can get "hotter than the surface of the sun". Welding torches can get "hotter than the surface of the sun".
It's the core of the sun where the magic is.
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And even there, pressure is probably the bigger issue.
They lie or exaggerate.. (Score:2)
Either they lie...
Or they use some kind of laser of something that locally for a very short time produces plasma at this temperature...
Though it does not seem for me as something of much value...
Which? (Score:2)
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Maybe they're talking about the British tabloid?
30,000F is easy to reach, basic physics. (Score:3)
The company says it uses a plasma applied coating?
Plasma coating plasma can reach 35,000F.
No fib required.
Re:30,000F is easy to reach, basic physics. (Score:5, Informative)
The actual claims-
"With a max manufacturing temperature of 30,000F, our cookware won't rapidly lose nonstick like traditional pans made at 900F can."
"Super-heated at 30,000F, plasma ceramic particles are fused to the surface of the pan, creating a super-hard, textured surface that interlocks with our exclusive coating for a superior bond. "
standard plasma coating stuff.
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I was going to say, it's pretty clear that they are talking about the temperature of the plasma, and that temperature is not unusual for plasma. The real problem is that the temperature of the plasma says nothing about how well the coating will perform, so they're not really giving us useful data about the quality of the product.
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What??? The commercial spouts irrelevant information to try to get people to buy their product? I'm shocked!
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Monty python skit about toothpaste- "now contains Frauduelin!"
You can get temperature hotter than sun (Score:4, Interesting)
If you know the definition of the temperature then you would also know that billiard balls moving randomly on pool table have temperature way higher than the sun's surface if you consider each particle as independent. The definition of temperature is average random KE per particle and you can defined any object as particle.
Going to more down to earth, you can create temperature higher than sun in many system. It won't achieve the same energy density though (without melting immediately). Plasmas in experimental fusion reactors go to 100 million degrees.
Even if the claim of 30000 degree is false, I don't see how this lawsuit is valid. For it to be valid, you have to show harm done to you as well. If you say that because you read 30000 degree and presumed it to be better than the competitors and it is not then only you can win the lawsuit. So good luck.
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For it to be valid, you have to show harm done to you as well.
The very basis of marketing effectiveness means that false claims create harm. That harm bar is a pathetically low bar to cross when it comes to marketing claims.
The article says there is a process that does this (Score:3, Informative)
This (really old) article from The Washington Post describes a ceramic coating process that sounds close to what SharkNinja advertises:
The newest high-tech wrinkle in nonstickiness is a coating called ceramic-titanium, developed in Denmark and used on Scanpan cookware. A mixture of titanium and a ceramic, so hot (30,000 degrees) that their atoms are broken down into a cloud of charged particles (Techspeak: a plasma), is fired at supersonic speed at the surface of an aluminum pan, where it anchors itself right into the metal, making an extremely hard, unscratchable surface.
So what? (Score:2)
THREE TIMES THE TEMPERATURE??? (Score:2)
How can my fellow pedantic artists here not call out this atrocity that goes against the laws of thermodynamics?!?!
In what world is 30k degrees = 3x 10k degrees?
What's next? 100 degrees is twice as hot as 50 degrees? 150 degrees isn't even twice as hot as 100 degrees?
Either use kelvin or consider making use of the particle frequencies of variation between temperatures if you want to do a "three times" type deal!
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10,000F = 5811K
30,000F = 16922K
2.91x
almost 3x
surely that is an accident though!
What's her argument? (Score:2)
The theoretical temperature at the core is ~1.5 x 10^7 C, or 15 Million degrees Celsius. To put it another way, the core is ~2620x hotter than the surface (5730 C), or the core is ~900
the surface of the sun ain't all that hot (Score:2)
We routinely make hotter plasmas here on Earth than exist on the surface of the Sun. With temperatures above 28,000 C (50,000 F) being possible in plasma arc welding.
That said, the marketing bullshit from consumer products companies has long been snippets of truth stated so ambiguously that consumers are led around on a fantasy of their own creation. For a very long time we've all seemed to accept the soft deception that occurs in advertising, primarily because meaningless statements and ambiguous claims ar
Resolution (Score:2)
Presumably the marketing claim is just slightly confused language, because the pan is subjected to some plasma in the process, and that actually is hotter than the surface of the sun. Since none of these customers are actually getting confused and trying to thrust their pan into the sun, there is no harm.
Solution: Stick your lawsuit and your pan where the sun don't shine!
Is That True? (Score:2)
The temperature of the sun is only 50x hotter than that needed to boil water?
That seems way low to me. I would have assumed the sun was in the millions of degrees farenheight.
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The SURFACE temperature is 'only' that hot. If you could survive it, you'd find a dive down to the core where the fusion is happening would be quite a bit hotter.
I have (had) this cookware (Score:2)
Every. Single. One. Failed.
The coating flaked off of everything, starting at 6 months. After 1 year. ALL of them had coating that was flaking off-- got paranoid about ingesting the whatever-it-is and tossed out the last frying pan recently.
Very disappointing-- and not very non-stick, either. Total disappointment.
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The sun ain't that hot (Score:2)
Scientists routinely recreate temperatures far hotter than the surface of the sun. Manufacturers do as well.
The fact they claim a temperature hotter than the sun is and of itself meaningless as far as proving anything.
Failure of a Lawsuit (Score:2)
Reading the actual advertising, it's understood that the plasma is what is 30K degrees.
The lawsuit filer, and the lawyer representing, are fucking idiots.
Preying on public ignorance is hard to forgive. (Score:2)
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Nothing new there. It has been done with computers and their components for years.
This seems like... (Score:2)
Arc flash (Score:2)
Arc welding runs around 10k F, and the plasma temperature in an arc flash can reach 30k F. It's rather unlikely that you'd make a pan at 30k F, but it's not actually impossible.
Laws of physics (Score:2)
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Did not know you could sue someone for violating the laws of physics ...
You can sue someone, because lawyers say so. For profit.
Did not know? Seriously? C'mon now. I shouldn't have to say 'follow the money' at this point. 40% is one HELL of an obvious cut.
Definition of Temperature. (Score:2)
The definition of temperature makes for some "weird" corner cases. Apparently the environment in LEO has a very high temperature: The few molecules that there are are moving a blistering speeds.
If they claim that 30k temperature, I'm guessing they do some form of vacuum deposition where due to an oddity in the definition of temperature you can state that the temperature is indeed 30k.
Apparently the American plan is: Sue first, educate yourself later.
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They likely took the tool used to create the product to make the claim, which may not be technically inaccurate. It would simply be quite unheard of.
We really don't see someone advertising the strength of a car door based on the temperature of the plasma cutter making it in a factory. We don't sell hand-forged knives based on the temperature the rubber metal was subjected to when it was formed. Likely due to our clickbait-for-profit mantra in society, someone decided to push it in cooking-pan marketing (
They meant the sun's temperature at night (Score:2)
Obviously.
No. (Score:2)
I believe the claims (Score:2)
Plasmas can be very very very hot.
"Plasma temperatures can approach 30000 K" -- wikipedia
Just because it may be true, doesn't mean it's relevant. Most of their products are hype; same here.
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Whoever came up with this stunt deserves a raise. It worked wonderfully well. It even made Slashdot! Despite having nothing to do with technology. The summary mentions three of their products by name!
If lawsuits are marketing now, then expect death to become a PPV event.
We'll be breaking ground on colosseums soon.