Russia Unveils Model of Proposed Space Station After Leaving ISS (theguardian.com) 108
The Russian space agency has unveiled a physical model of what a planned Russian-built space station will look like, suggesting Moscow is serious about abandoning the International Space Station (ISS) and going it alone. The Guardian reports: Russia wants to reduce its dependency on western countries and forge ahead on its own, or cooperate with countries such as China and Iran, after sanctions were imposed by the west as a result of the invasion of Ukraine. Roscosmos presented a model of the space station, nicknamed "Ross" by Russian state media, on Monday at a military-industrial exhibition outside Moscow.
Roscosmos said its space station would be launched in two phases, without giving dates. For the first phase a four-module space station would start operating. That would be followed by two more modules and a service platform, it said. That would be enough, when completed, to accommodate up to four cosmonauts and scientific equipment. Roscosmos has said the station would afford Russian cosmonauts a much wider view by which to monitor Earth than their current segment. Although designs for some of the station exist, design work is still under way on other segments.
Russian state media have suggested the launch of the first stage is planned for 2025-26 and no later than 2030. Launch of the second and final stage is planned for 2030-35, they have reported. The space station, as currently conceived, would not have a permanent human presence but would be staffed twice a year for extended periods. Dmitry Rogozin, the previous head of Roscosmos and a hardliner known for his tough statements against the west, has suggested the new space station could fulfil a military purpose if necessary.
Roscosmos said its space station would be launched in two phases, without giving dates. For the first phase a four-module space station would start operating. That would be followed by two more modules and a service platform, it said. That would be enough, when completed, to accommodate up to four cosmonauts and scientific equipment. Roscosmos has said the station would afford Russian cosmonauts a much wider view by which to monitor Earth than their current segment. Although designs for some of the station exist, design work is still under way on other segments.
Russian state media have suggested the launch of the first stage is planned for 2025-26 and no later than 2030. Launch of the second and final stage is planned for 2030-35, they have reported. The space station, as currently conceived, would not have a permanent human presence but would be staffed twice a year for extended periods. Dmitry Rogozin, the previous head of Roscosmos and a hardliner known for his tough statements against the west, has suggested the new space station could fulfil a military purpose if necessary.
LOL (Score:5, Funny)
If their space station's military purpose holds up as well as their domestic military has, I look forward to the fireworks.
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Space station wars in 5..4..3..2..
Re:LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
The best way to cripple Putin's ambition is to encourage Russia's best and brightest to emigrate to the West.
We should have liberal visa policies for educated young Russians to move to the EU or America.
Russia's brain drain is our gain.
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This is why we need to toss the entire H-1B system and if someone is good enough that they can work in the US on a visa citing special talents, they should have permanent residency status.
China spends a huge chunk of their GDP wooing talent, everything from their Thousand Talents program, to offering a lot of benefits to people who are worried about how Western countries are doing. The US won defectors because of stability and access to health care back during Cold War I, as well as protection of free spee
Re: LOL (Score:3, Insightful)
It canâ(TM)t be the subject of debate in China and that tells you everything you need to know.
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You can debate free speech all you like in China. You can even organize massive protests against some government action which you feel unfairly inhibits free speech or leads to undue surveillance, this happens all the time in China.
What you can't do is protest against one party rule, or do anything to try to make yourself a threat to the national government (you can blame local government for bad implementation and call for their ouster instead), or post online about a trending controversial topic with a vi
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Chinese healthcare is not state-provided. They're no better off than the US is, and may well still be behind the curve if one can't pay for even emergency services.
Chinese communism isn't set up like Soviet communism was. The state doesn't guarantee benefits or provide the sort of safety nets that the Soviets ostensibly did. The Chinese system takes that which benefits the state, and pushes the costs off on the individual.
Re: LOL (Score:2)
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Russia has had brain drain since decades, mostly because it seems they completely neglected their academia...
I'm not even sure how much brain you could drain out of that country at this point. There is absolutely no reason to believe their sciences have been spared the corruption that is evident in their military.
Re:LOL (Score:5, Informative)
Russia has had brain drain since decades
The evidence from Ukraine is that the talent drain has hurt them dearly. So we should encourage more of it.
they completely neglected their academia...
This is a result of the resource curse [wikipedia.org]. A "normal" country benefits from the skills and talents of its workforce. But a petrostate just needs to keep the population from interfering with the pipelines, and academia is just an annoying source of dissent.
I'm not even sure how much brain you could drain out of that country at this point.
There is still plenty of talent in Russia, and many young people are looking for an exit. Georgia allows visa-free entry for Russians and there is a thriving Russian-speaking tech industry in Tiblisi. Israel is also sucking in Russian talent.
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That's about half right. Russia, being the husk of the former USSR was a fully functional empire with world-class academic institutions and excellent R&D ... thirty years ago. They never managed to keep up with the explosive pace of electronics development that we had in the west because they handicapped themselves with a substandard economic model, corruption and, of course, had the geographic disadvantages of being a vast Asian land power.
Russia could possibly have held on to its technical talents,
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The question is do we want 140 million unemployed people in the east with anger issues and no way out of the hole they're in?
Granted, there's QUITE a difference between the Germans of the 1930s and today's Russians... but still... just imagine the breeding ground for hatred... And then they have nuclear weapons... one hopes they're as dysfunctional as the military but I'm not sure I want to take THAT gamble.
Re: LOL (Score:2)
Re:LOL - Red State Brain Drain (Score:4, Interesting)
Conservative policies have done similar things to the Midwest. Missouri being one of the trigger states is starting to suffer more as they can't hire teachers or techs. The situation is going to get worse instead of better. Mental Health workers are remoting in because of the lack of desire to move here.
I am all for snagging Russia's thinking pool. We capitalized off of it before when the Soviet Union fell. We should capitalize off of it again. I just wish someone would consider what's going on here as well.
Re:LOL - Red State Brain Drain (Score:5, Funny)
> Missouri...Mental Health workers are remoting in because of the lack of desire to move here.
Hotline: "Mental health hot-line, how can we help?"
Caller: "Uh, I live in Missouri."
Hotline: "Oh dear. That's a tough one. Let me get you our top therapist..."
Re:LOL - Red State Brain Drain (Score:5, Funny)
caller: no, not "misery", i live in missouri
hotline: oh shit, this is more serious than i thought
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I think around the Election of George W Bush, The conservative parts of the country started to reject intellectuals and made it a political stance.
I use be a conservative person, and I kinda wanted to work in a quite midwest area, however I valued education, and the idea that rational thought mixed with education as well my normal intuition can help make lives better. These area who have pushed an Anti-intellectual stance, in general caused my life to change directions as I don't want to live my life figh
Re:LOL - Red State Brain Drain (Score:5, Informative)
Conservative policies have done similar things to the Midwest. Missouri being one of the trigger states is starting to suffer more as they can't hire teachers or techs.
That is a nationwide issue right now, I live in Maryland, and it is just as much happening here. The counties are running advertising campaigns at Ocean City begging people to apply as teachers.
Maryland generally swings blue in the elections, though we do have a Republican on paper as our Gov, he is very..."moderate".
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For reference:
https://www.wmar2news.com/news... [wmar2news.com]
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Re:LOL - Red State Brain Drain (Score:4, Informative)
Are you stupid? Missouri mints more teachers out of the MU college system than any other program including nursing to the point they have to leave to find work. The only problem with the MO teaching unions is that there are so many paper qualified teachers that they can roll them over so fast tenure is never reached.
As a Design Network Eng for T-Mobile (Sprint) I can tell you there is no lack of STEM talent in the state but then a help-desk tech would probably not understand the difference.
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Half of them will still be working for the Russians.
Millions of Russians have emigrated, and there is little evidence they have any loyalty to Putin's regime.
Putin runs a kleptocracy. There is no ideology or vision for the future to inspire loyalty.
Once Russians emigrate, they focus on building a new life in their new home.
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Long term, the country is f^%$ed but Putin doesnt give a rats ass about that.
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If their space station's military purpose holds up as well as their domestic military has, I look forward to the fireworks.
Yes, the fireworks [twitter.com] are pretty [twitter.com] this morning in Crimea
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Those aren't fireworks, they are pictures of someone smoking.
Re: LOL (Score:2)
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USA has the bigger body count in space, comrade
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Even the Taiwan/Pelosi response looks more like a tantrum than anything.
Re:Why the aggression? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why the aggression? (Score:5, Informative)
China has devastated the environment in those areas and then militarized them after they said they would not.
> But they have a reasonably legitimate claim to many/most of the islands.
No they do not.
> China's actions in the SCS, which have resulted in zero casualties and zero bullets being fired, are hardly one of history's great acts of aggression.
Tell that to the (for example) Vietnamese and Philippines.
Re:Why the aggression? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Russia/China/Iran/etc" are ruled by tyrants who have no legitimate reason for governing. Their people know this even if they do not want to admit to themselves. As tyrants, they are paranoid that others will do to them what they have done to others to gain power. So they generate conflicts and then sell them as defending the Weenie-Land against those naughty "others". Then they stand on the head of that pinnacle and declare that they themselves are critical to defending the people against the enemies they've created. Putin vs Ukraine, Jinping vs Taiwan, Iran vs Those Naughty Sunnis, the former alleged president vs the "libs".
All the smokescreens they throw up to cover their nakedness are just flimsy excuses to remain in power.
Re:Why the aggression? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Russia/China/Iran/etc" are ruled by tyrants who have no legitimate reason for governing.
Yeah, like here, but worse. Their politicians work for themselves. Ours work for corporations. Neither works for The People.
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Ours work for corporations. Neither works for The People.
Agree 100%. We suffer for their ambitions.
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What's the difference between Capitalism and Communism?
With Capitalism, it's man against man. With Communism, it's the other way around.
From an early Tom Clancy novel. Possibly HFRO?
Re:Why the aggression? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Russia/China/Iran/etc" are ruled by tyrants who have no legitimate reason for governing.
Indeed. But at a deeper level, the three countries are very different.
Russia is flat. There are no natural borders on either the east or west and Russia has been repeatedly invaded from both directions. So their only defense is to have "strategic depth": enough land to buffer them from attacks.
But each time Russia created a buffer, that buffer soon became an integral part of Russia, and then a new buffer was needed to buffer the old buffer. So Russia grew into the world's largest country, not out of a hunger for conquest, but, paradoxically, out of paranoia and insecurity.
Westerners see Russian aggression in Ukraine. But to Russians, it is a defensive action to reestablish the old buffer.
The situation in China is different. China didn't seek an empire, the empire came to them. They were repeatedly invaded and conquered by the Xiongnu, the Mongols, the Manchus, and each time the Chinese would culturally and demographically swamp the invaders, absorbing them into China.
In the 19th century, the Manchus still ruled China and made the very foolish decision to isolate China from new ideas, from the West, and from technological progress. This led to the Opium War and a century of humiliation.
Much of China's current behavior is driven by their desire to overcome that humiliation and be respected. They feel the West looks down on them. I don't think that is true, but that's the way they see it. Nancy Pelosi's trip, by giving them the finger, sent pretty much exactly the wrong message. The result will be ramped-up militarization and more Chinese nukes aimed at America.
Iran's resentment originated in the CIA's overthrow of the elected government in 1953 and the installation of the brutally repressive government of the Shah. The current government was defined by its opposition to the Shah and is now defined by opposition to America and everything America represents. Most urban Iranians would like to see regime change, but there is strong support for the theocracy in conservative rural areas.
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Russia grew into the world's largest country, not out of a hunger for conquest, but, paradoxically, out of paranoia and insecurity.
What's the difference? The need to control everything is always based on a desire for security, and a misbegotten notion that it's possible or even desirable to do so. But the paranoia is itself based on a kernel of truth — anything not under your control might wind up under the control of another actor who has their goals in mind over yours.
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Iran's resentment originated in the CIA's overthrow of the elected government in 1953 and the installation of the brutally repressive government of the Shah.
That is not really correct. The Shah was only repressive to those who tried to kill him. Because. he was it who installed democracy in Iran including voting rights for women..
I suggest to go to youtube, there are excellent documentaries about his controversial life - btw: he was deposed by the CIA, too. Basically because he refused towards Nixon to sel
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Iran's resentment originated in the CIA's overthrow of the elected government in 1953 and the installation of the brutally repressive government of the Shah.
That is not really correct. The Shah was only repressive to those who tried to kill him.
In retrospect, it's pretty obvious that Iran under the Shah had a lot more freedom than what came after. However, that doesn't mean that the Shah's regime wasn't repressive. It outright killed dissenters, and tortured people suspected of being dissidents.
Google "SAVAK" [google.com] sometime.
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Russia is flat. There are no natural borders on either the east or west
Interesting analysis, but,,, you don't think the Pacific Ocean is a bit of a natural border on the east?
Re:Why the aggression? (Score:5, Informative)
you don't think the Pacific Ocean is a bit of a natural border on the east?
Alaska was once part of the Russian Empire.
There were Russian outposts as far south as the Russian River [wikipedia.org] in California.
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That was the logic when the Soviets took Greater Manchuria from China back in the day. :-)
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So Russia grew into the world's largest country, not out of a hunger for conquest, but, paradoxically, out of paranoia and insecurity.
Westerners see Russian aggression in Ukraine. But to Russians, it is a defensive action to reestablish the old buffer.
Interesting theory about Russia. But the bulk of Russia lies in the East, and the only empire that had the potential to threaten them would have been the Mongols, not China, which like you said, had already consolidated its borders. And if I remember my history correctly, the heyday of the Golden Horde would have been past by the time Russia expanded across the Siberia.
My theory is that the Russia basically grabbed land that nobody wanted or found useful at the time. Proof perhaps is that the Siberia is sti
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The situation in China is different. China didn't seek an empire, the empire came to them
Cao Cao, Han Wudi, and Qin Shi Huangdi disagree. China's relation with other countries has always been either "vassal" or "too far." When Japan tried to present themselves as equals (under Shotoku Taishi), they were not happy. But that is the old China.
Much of China's current behavior is driven by their desire to overcome that humiliation and be respected.
Do they want to be respected or feared?
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Cao Cao, Han Wudi, and Qin Shi Huangdi disagree.
They (mostly) fought to consolidate their rule over ethnic Chinese territory rather than foreign conquest.
Do they want to be respected or feared?
Both.
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They (mostly) fought to consolidate their rule over ethnic Chinese territory rather than foreign conquest.
It is ethnic Han now, but it wasn't at the time. And even now, there are a lot of different ethnicities across the region, and they are all forced to speak Mandarin.
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It is ethnic Han now, but it wasn't at the time.
Um... if you're talking about Cao Cao, the territories being "conquered" were mostly ethnic Han. The Three Kingdoms was the Han territory split up amongst three warlords.
Han Wudi was the emperor of the pre-existing Han empire, and defeated the Xiongnu, which was his point. If the Xiongnu didn't invade, pillage and rape along the border, then the Han wouldn't have had to conquer them, would they? The Han policy up to that point was appeasement, by sending them things and princesses, but the Xiongnu pushe
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"Russia/China/Iran/etc" are ruled by tyrants who have no legitimate reason for governing. Their people know this even if they do not want to admit to themselves.
LOL. The leadership in those countries have large margins of support from their populations. Get off of YouTube. Liberal Muscovites, liberal kids dancing in Tehran, and liberal leftovers in Hong Kong don't speak for a majority of their populations. Those leaders couldn't stay in power without large amounts of support from their populations. Iran is ruled by Ayatollahs because Iranians are overwhelmingly faithful Shias that are repulsed by Western mores. The CCP still rules China because they have, as the Ch
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How the heck did this get modded up? By "large margin of support" what is meant is that even a modicum of dissent gets you put in jail or worse.
It meant exactly what I said: the majority of these peoples give their leaders their support, often enthusiastically. They like them.
By "large margin of support" what is meant is that actual facts are suppressed because, with real information, nobody would support the leaders.
These people are far more aware of what's going on in their countries than you think. And they still give their support. Because they find the alternative... Western-style societies... unacceptable.
You don't have to like it, but you can't pretend that these are ignorant sheep with the wool over their eyes.
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Those leaders couldn't stay in power without large amounts of support from their populations.
They don't need support, they just need indifference.
Re: Why the aggression? (Score:1)
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In fact, it is just as bad as what they deride about Trump after 2020. They are denying the validity of an election, just like he did.
A space station for ants? (Score:5, Funny)
Derek Zoolander: [Looking at model [youtube.com] of Russian-built space station in TFA.]
What is this? A space station for ants?
How can they be expected to study space science... if they can't even fit inside the space station?
I don't wanna hear your excuses! The station has to be at least three times bigger than this!
He's absolutely right you know.
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They’re “serious” (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyone can cobble a model together with some plastic cups, toothpicks, paint, and glue. You’re telling me they couldn’t even pull together a quick visualization in the weeks since they announced this plan? If a physical model is the standard for them showing they’re “serious”, I’d say the bar has been lowered.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if some model hobbyist comes out of the woodwork in the comments here to tell us which model kits those pieces were pulled from.
Re:They’re “serious” (Score:4, Funny)
It would be ironic if it turned out that some of the parts in that model came from an ISS model kit...
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It would be ironic if it turned out that some of the parts in that model came from an ISS model kit...
Considering that some of the ISS is made of Russian components, why would that be a surprise?
There's no groundbreaking technologies here. Russia has been making this stuff since the old Mir days. It's just a matter of having enough money to put new ones up there.
Re:They’re “serious” (Score:4, Interesting)
It looks surprisingly similar to the Chinese space station to me.
Perhaps the two countries have come full circle - China did buy the original Soyuz plans and tech from Russia before developing it into their current manned space vehicle, so perhaps in turn Russia is buying Chinese space station tech
Re: They’re “serious” (Score:5, Funny)
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Sadly, I do not know whether to mod this Funny or Insightful.
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Informative would probably be the correct one, because I can already see someone at NASA go "good idea".
Well... to be fair... (Score:2)
If China builds it cheaper for them, then if they it to other countries they would be "rebadges" rather than "knockoffs".
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As I was looking at it, I thought "gosh, where are the Soyuz?" The Soyuz has a pretty distinctive appearance [google.com], and there appears to be none attached to this model.
Re:They're "serious" (Score:3)
Re:They’re “serious” (Score:4, Funny)
They were going to use some Star Wars models, but got outbid on Ebay. Now they are stuck with a Chewbacca action figure and nothing to put it in.
Fail (Score:2)
If it's in space instead of on the moon, or at least in orbit of the moon, they failed.
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Why?
Thats just assuming that someone else is failing because they havent done the same thing as you - regardless of their goals, if they arent competing with you on your basis then they are failing?
If you want to make fun of Russia, its easy enough because this space station wont happen at all, its the equivalent of a petulant child moving out to live in the play house in the neighbours garden before they find that food and water and toilets and all the other luxuries dont happen for free.
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new space station could fulfil a military purpose (Score:3)
Yeah, they could drop it on someone, if Ukrainian farmers don't get to it first.
Upstage them ... (Score:2)
Re: Upstage them ... (Score:3)
Okay but just to be clear, it needs hookers and blackjack... for uhm, "tourism".
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...and hold the blackjack.
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Upstage them by getting everybody who's anybody together to create a more advanced rotating wheel space station.
Why?
If you want gravity, you've already got it: stay on Earth. The whole purpose of going into orbit is to get microgravity.
Re: Upstage them ... (Score:2)
Not really true. A space station can have manufacturing and be a port for spacecraft that will take us further into the solar system.
One of the plans for going to Mars includes a space craft that would never land or enter any atmosphere. As such, all the work required for these endeavors means extended stays for crew which does terrible things to the body without gravity. Thus, even if manufacturing is in microgravity, it will be extremely beneficial to have an environment close to 1g.
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If you want gravity, you've already got it: stay on Earth. The whole purpose of going into orbit is to get microgravity.
Not really true. A space station can have manufacturing
For the most part, the only reason to be manufacturing stuff in space would be because you want microgravity. If that's not important, do it on Earth.
and be a port for spacecraft that will take us further into the solar system.
Well, that's possible. But to date, that hasn't been the use of space stations; all missions so far beyond the Earth don't stop at a space station first.
One of the plans for going to Mars includes a space craft that would never land or enter any atmosphere. ...
The logistics of using a space station as an intermediate destination are a bit tricky. It turns out to be harder to stop in Low Earth Orbit when you're arriving from Mars than it is to go all the way back to
Make Russia great again. (Score:1)
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And he needn't even build a wall, he can lease the one from around the corner in China.
When do we get our space donut? (Score:2)
The engineering challenges must be greater than old science fiction led us to believe.
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It's not hard. It's expensive.
Making a space station with artificial gravity is roughly equivalent to suspending it in the equivalent gravity field. If you want 1 g, it's like hanging the thing from a bridge. Not that hard, but the structure has to be a lot stronger, which makes it heavier, which is expensive to launch.
There's also the issue that if you don't want people puking all the time it has to be a certain size, which again makes it more expensive to launch.
Something like the London Eye would probabl
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The first one doesn't have to be 1G. Just 1/3 or even 1/6 would be useful. This is nothing but another tin can floating around in space. In other words a step backwards, and a waste of resources. We are not going to do anything serous in space just floating around in a null g.
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Lighter gravity is easier, but has the same problems. FYI, London Eye size would likely be less than 1 g.
Developing orbital infrastructure, including construction, is essential to making further progress.
I heard a rumor they want to name it 'Terok Nor'. (Score:2)
Last time I checked (Score:2)
....models are pretty damned cheap.
AFAIK, their entire space program is/was funded by lofting *western* scientists, supplies, and satellites into orbit.
I'll believe it when I see it.
right (Score:2)
it's not a true model of a russian space station unless there's a model of a ukranian tractor pulling it along
Hey, everyone (Score:2)
About as real as the Iranian stealth fighter? (Score:2)
https://www.19fortyfive.com/20... [19fortyfive.com]
More Russian fail incoming... (Score:2)
Pigs^H^H^H^H Invasion in Spayyyyce!!! (Score:1)
It's not practical to conduct acts of aggression against the ISS if you're actually present there yourself.
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American Parts, Russian Parts (Score:2)
Not a chance (Score:2)
They simply don't have anywhere near the capabilities they used to have. The most recent example is that they very recently launched Iran's "Khayyam" spy satellite and then announced that they were going to borrow it for a while. With a resolution of 1.2 meters or less, it's not even that great of a spy satellite and doesn't come close to what some commercial providers have. But, Russia needed it because they don't a
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USA was using Russia for space taxi and space delivery truck for 17 years... guess USA didn't have anywhere used to the capabilities they used to have D
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USA was using Russia for space taxi and space delivery truck for 17 years... guess USA didn't have anywhere used to the capabilities they used to have
D
Exactly true. For the last 20 years, the USA has been re-developig their Space capabilities. Both in the private sector and the government. So we're in great shape, and no longer need Russia for anything.
Meanwhile during that time, and especially the last 10 years, Russia has been focusing on kleptocracy, repressing their people, and international aggrssion such as invading Ukraine. Their economy is in tatters and they are pariahs.
Spae-wise, they've lost whatever they had 20 years ago, and also made it near
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haha, virtue signalling and minting social coin is all you're trying to do.
Yet even thought Russia bad their rocket industry is still around, huge and kicking, has military applications after all and Russia does spend on military applications!
Excited to see new Russian space station!! (Score:2)
Ahh.. Oh well....
Is Potato!
New cold war (Score:2)
Space-stations are undefended, high-maintenance machines: It is not a good place to store or launch, offensive or defensive weapons. But this will be the start of a new cold war.