What Are FFP2 Masks, Mandatory in Some European Countries? (economist.com) 131
FFP stands for "filtering face piece." It is a European standard for mask efficiency, ranging from one, the lowest grade, to three, the highest. The Economist adds: FFP2 masks filter at least 94% of all aerosols, including airborne viruses such as covid-19. America's N95 and China's KN95 masks provide similar levels of protection. These disposable masks have several layers of different fabrics, including a polypropylene filter, made by "melt-blowing" polymer to create miniscule, irregular fibre patterns that can trap the smallest airborne particles. A study published in December by the Max Planck Institute, a German research organisation, found well-fitting FFP2 masks reduced the risk of infection with covid-19 to 0.1%. Cloth or medical masks, on the other hand, merely disrupt the airflow of the speaker and trap the largest aerosol particles in their woven material. Their efficacy varies wildly depending on the design and fabric used: tight-fitting, multi-layered masks made from dense materials are much more effective than single-layer linen masks. One study in the Journal of Education and Health Promotion found surgical masks were three times more effective at preventing inhalation of aerosols than homemade cloth ones. Another study, in JAMA Internal Medicine, a journal, compared different cloth masks and found that their efficacy at containing viral particles ranged from 26% to 79%.
seems to skip one of the main points (Score:5, Informative)
The layering is half the story. The article should have emphasised the "well-fitting" part of the FFP2 design more.
A 94% effectively layered FFP2 that fits well over mouth AND nose,
is much better at stopping viral spread than a 95% effectively layered rectangular mask that leaves sides and occasionally, entire noses uncovered.
Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:5, Insightful)
I have yet to find a mask that fits really well. Some have better nose clips than others, but none of them seem able to stop my glasses steaming up entirely.
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Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:4)
But agreed, the best QOL improvement for masks would be one where glasses steaming up is not an issue.
Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:5, Funny)
none of them seem able to stop my glasses steaming up entirely.
Try an Avon M53 [avon-protection.com] with the Vision Correction Assembly. I have worn one for extensive stretches many times and never had an issue with fogging.
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Thanks, although it seems a bit overkill for daily stuff.
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I have yet to find a mask that fits really well. Some have better nose clips than others, but none of them seem able to stop my glasses steaming up entirely.
I place my glasses over the nose clip. It pushes the top of the mask down, acting kinda like a seal.
Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:4, Informative)
Clean them with some hand-or dish soap before you go out. Let it sit for a minute, rinse with warm water, let them air dry.
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I've been using cloth masks which I've modified by opening the seam with an awl and inserting aluminum craft wire which I use to fit the mask to my face. This is like a nose clip, but extends past the cheekbones. It's not 100% effective by any means, but it helps some with fogging.
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I was thinking that some kind of padding would help.
Maybe I should just get LASIK.
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Seems like as good excuse as any to get LASIK. I don't think in the long term most of us will continue masking indefinitely, but it would certainly make life easier in the near term. With hospitalizations creeping up we may be in for another round of mask mandates.
Re: seems to skip one of the main points (Score:3)
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The fact that I'm afraid of shark is also a strong point against LASIK.
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I've thought about LASIK but the "dirty secret" is that you will very likely require reading glasses afterwards.
I had LASIK in my thirties. I was nearsighted, and it was the best decision I ever made. Two decades later, my vision is still excellent from three feet to infinity. But I absolutely need reading glasses (1.25 to 1.5) to use my monitor one foot away.
Luckily, I can buy a lot of reading glasses at the dollar store and have a pair pretty much everywhere in the house.
And there's also a fair chance that it won't fully correct your vision and may need to be repeated at some point.
That is a valid point. My wife also had LASIK, and something changed over the years. She now has to use prescription glasses. Roll the dice, and h
Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:5, Informative)
Shaving cream on your glasses, wipe it off with a soft towel. It will resist fogging up. I also use it on my motorcycle helmet visor.
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Never heard shaving cream suggested. I will investigate, thanks.
Re: seems to skip one of the main points (Score:2)
You can also buy anti fogging spray if you want to be less DIY
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I have yet to find a mask that fits really well. Some have better nose clips than others, but none of them seem able to stop my glasses steaming up entirely.
I have a business dealing with the public, mainly tourists, in person, all day. I wear a mask 8-10 hours a day.
I have settled on wearing a combination of a surgical mask (decent filtration, disposable, inexpensive) under a double layered neck-gaiter (stretchy, stays in place, no air gaps, machine-washable). It is surprisingly comfortable for long-term wear and prevents the air-gaps and fogging glasses while being inexpensive enough for every day use.
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Nerds fucking love this "well-fitting" stuff, they're totally confused about disease prevention compared to industrial use when surrounded by toxic air. Totally fucking confused.
Here, you're conflating the mask being well-fitting with if your glasses fog up. I'll leave the "steam" aside. Your glasses fog up because the air you exhale isn't traveling as far. It has nothing to do with the fit of the mask.
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Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:5, Informative)
Yep. I had the chance to compare them this summer (in Germany). I can never get a rectangular mask to fit well enough - my glasses keep fogging when I use these masks. Switching to FFP2 reduced fogging by a lot; unfortunately, it didn't eliminate it completely. I even experimented taping the top of the mask to my face to completely seal it. With medical tape, I still got some fogging, I had to use gaffer tape to eliminate it.
Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:5, Interesting)
With medical tape, I still got some fogging, I had to use gaffer tape to eliminate it.
Were the pieces of gaffer tape you used significantly wider than the medical tape? I'm asking because I've found that even with a good seal on an N95 my glasses can still fog up a bit. And a water molecule is more than 100 times smaller than a virus - so some glass fogging might occur even when a virus isn't likely to get through.
Another thing to consider is that N95 masks impede airflow enough for inhalation to suck the mask against your skin and create a better fit. Exhalation is the opposite - you might get gapping while exhaling even when the seal is good while you're inhaling.
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Yes, the gaffer tape was about 4 cm wide, the medical tape 1.5 cm.
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If you want to stick with non-elastomerics, try the 3M Aura series. They have a foam piece over the nose, which not only improves comfort but also is said to reduce fogging (less air wants to leave through that portion of the mask). They're very popular in hospitals.
Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:4, Interesting)
The layering is half the story. The article should have emphasised the "well-fitting" part of the FFP2 design more. A 94% effectively layered FFP2 that fits well over mouth AND nose, is much better at stopping viral spread than a 95% effectively layered rectangular mask that leaves sides and occasionally, entire noses uncovered.
They are a bit anal about those things. They require these 94% effective FFP2 masks:
... and they have to be clearly market FFP2 otherwise you get kicked out from wherever it is you want to go. I havre a relative who sells medical supplies to hospitals so I was wearing a 98% effective genuine surgical mask that actually had a higher effectiveness rating than than FFP2, the kind of mask they use for intestinal surgery where even the slightest infection can actually kill the patient :
... but I had to downgrade to an FFP2 because the higher quality mask wasn't clearly marked FFP2.
https://www.distrelec.de/Web/W... [distrelec.de]
https://media.4rgos.it/i/Argos... [4rgos.it]
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Would they kick someone out if they had a mask marked FFP3 or P100?
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Would they kick someone out if they had a mask marked FFP3 or P100?
I was basically wearing a FFP3 surgical mask, which is equivalent to a US N99. Generally they just play it safe and insist on FFP2, they'll probably toss you out for wearing anything that isn't an FFP2. They'd probably also toss you out for wearing an N95 even though it is functionally equivalent to a FFP2 unless it is specifically labelled as FFP2 equivalent. Generally it depends on the security person and how well informed they are. What really annoyed me is that they didn't just have the damn things avai
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That mask is not FFP3. It is not even FFP2. The cut just cannot do that. Also, intestinal surgery is done with regular surgical masks. You are probably thinking of orthopedic surgery. There, surgeons may wear completely enclosing headgear that is on another level than FFP2 / FFP3.
I think you are full of crap and they were right to lick you out. Alternatively, you got badly misinformed.
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I think you are full of crap and they were right to lick you out.
eww...
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... they were right to lick you out ...
Having a Freudian slip are we?
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Probably because the people doing the kicking out probably knows little about masks, so unlees their instructions specifically say FFP2 or above they will probably say not ffp2 so sorry mac
In addition, if an inspector stopped by they are likely to simply decide the establishment violated the law and write them up. It’s simply not worth the risk to determine if a mask, not makes as FFP2, meets or exceeds the standard.
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Would they kick someone out if they had a mask marked FFP3 or P100?
I was at a place the other day and they gave out free FFP2 masks to people who weren't wearing one.
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Probably not, if it looks like a real respirator and not some piece of cloth, nobody will generally check the exact level.
Re:seems to skip one of the main points (Score:4, Interesting)
The layering is half the story. The article should have emphasised the "well-fitting" part of the FFP2 design more. .
well ofc that's just logical.
what's very interesting is this part:
FFP2 masks should be preferred to surgical masks, as even loosely worn FFP2 masks can reduce the risk of infection by a factor of 2.5 compared with well-fitted surgical masks.
Re: seems to skip one of the main points (Score:2)
Stupid question:
Why wouldn't surgeons be using these, then?
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Surgeons aren't trying to prevent viral infections.
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A typical OR has sterile air flow around the patient designed to keep room air away. For regular soft tissue surgery the surgical mask mostly needs to do the same thing: redirect stuff away from the patient.
Some surgeries, especially orthopaedic, use full helmets and integrated gowns [pinimg.com]. They protect the patient better when the surgeon is bending over manhandling their hip into place, and also protect the surgeon from the spray when the Black and Decker gets going.
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Yeah well of course they should prote - wait what?!
They told me they used Makita! Lying bastards!
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This. The ASTM standards for the material of surgical masks is actually quite high, similar to that of N95s. But there is no provision made for a tight fit, because they were based on the notion of droplet spread.
They still do good, mind you - in addition to absorbing larger droplets (which don't change direction as readily to follow the airflow), they also affect the airflow. Normally when you breathe out you breathe a tight stream of particle-laden air straight at the face of the person you're talking t
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My main concern with these (very well meaning) regulations is that I'll get the same nonsense I've gotten before, just with more force: the whole "please remove your better mask and put on our crappy one before entering" thing. :P Asked to remove a P100 elastomeric and put on a cheap leaky KN-94.
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Arguably that's a reasonable request. Respirators with valves are comfortable and provide high levels of protection for the wearer, but increase risks to others by atomizing the droplets in the wearer's exhalations. KN-95s are less effective at protecting the wearer, but if everyone in a space is wearing them reasonably correctly they're going to reduce the chance of a transmission event.
Re: seems to skip one of the main points (Score:2)
Who said valved?
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A P100 mask is completely unsuitable for protecting others, as it has a valve for breathing out. People seem to really be only thinking about themselves these days.
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Educate yourself before you criticize other people. My daily mask is a GFS Elipse SPR644 (elastomeric P100). It is UNVALVED. I also have a 3M filtering half facepiece with the exhalation filter attachment.
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ED: GVS.
Sorry, it's super-late here and I apparently can't post properly. :P
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Sleeping in the things is a bit of a pain. I wouldn't trust people to do it reliably.
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Where would you even find one big enough to sleep in anyway? I just use a regular camping sleeping bag and close the zipper all around me!
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Try a mummy bag. The hood makes it much easier to get a good seal.
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This. The ASTM standards for the material of surgical masks is actually quite high, similar to that of N95s. But there is no provision made for a tight fit, because they were based on the notion of droplet spread.
There is also a vert critical difference: FFP2/FFP3/N95 serves to protect _you_, i.e. filter what is coming in. Surgical masks serve to reduce the aerosol you breath out., i.e. they filter what is going out. Completely different application and different standards.
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That's because old people stay home and don't wander much outside because it's dangerous - pandemic or not.
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Florida is the 6th oldest state/territory in the US; the average age (42,5) is younger than West Virginia (42,9), Vermont (43), New Hampshire (43,1), Puerto Rico (43,6) and Maine (45).
Confirmed deaths per capita:
Florida: 2903
West Virginia: 2930 (also low-COVID-regulation)
Vermont: 737
New Hampshire: 1380
Puerto Rico: 971
Maine: 1097
What exactly was your point, again?
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You talk with your mouth closed?
You must be very entertaining at parties, or at office meetings. ;)
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Actually, the 94% of the FFP2 says at most 6% of the air stay unfiltered. It is mostly about what gets in on the sides. FFP3, goes up to 99% and you strongly notice the difference when wearing one. There is not even a rating for medical masks, since they are not intended to protect you, but reduce aerosols reaching others.
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It seems that if it isn't covering your nose, it isn't even being worn.
In the same way that if you take the legs of your pants and tie them around your waist, you're not actually wearing pants. You're just wearing a belt that could have been pants.
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Why are masks mandatory in some countries? (Score:3, Insightful)
Because THERE'S A FUCKING PANDEMIC ON! Duh... And some countries have more sense than others.
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Even with mandates you'll always get a percentage of idiots who either don't wear the masks correctly [dailymail.co.uk], or not all the time, or don't wear one at all.
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Mask that actually do something (Score:3)
FFP2 are masks that actually do something useful, rather than just offering pandemic theatre. But using them properly (disposing of them after use, or each day) would be costly and there probably isn't enough supply, so health authorities in most countries still go with the DIY cloth mask thing.
I'm all for using masks to reduce spread, but I do wonder if cloth masks are actually helping. If people feel safer with them on and hence go into crowded spaces more, or stand closer to others to talk, or even just talk louder due to the loss of visual communication cues, that might actually mean overall infectivity is increased through cloth mask wearing. But nobody seems interested in answering these questions because mask wearing is so politicised now, the actual effectiveness has gotten lost in the shouting.
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Better than nothing, but you'd be a fool to think that they protect you, the wearer, significantly enough.
Many places here in Germany at least require surgical masks, with FFP2 being the other option.
When taking a look at what people are actually using, it's a quite mixed bag, where the occasional mask can still be spotted. Hence I have to conclude that at least the employees of the establishments these persons frequ
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A lot of research got done on this; one formula that seems to work really well is a cloth mask over a surgical mask [medicalnewstoday.com]. The cloth mask improves the fit of the surgical mask. The researchers achieved 99% effectiveness by sandwiching a mask bracket between the surgical and cloth mask.
Note the focus of this research is protecting other people. It doesn't say anything about protecting the wearer, although it seems plausible that better fit equals greater protection.
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But using them properly (disposing of them after use, or each day) would be costly and there probably isn't enough supply, so health authorities in most countries still go with the DIY cloth mask thing.
It IS possible to disinfect these at home for several re-uses. It involves only water and an oven set to a specific temperature - information is available on YouTube. You can safely get three or four uses out of one mask if you're careful.
I'm all for using masks to reduce spread, but I do wonder if cloth masks are actually helping.
Why choose? My wife and I put cloth masks over top of N95 masks. It's hard to get the N95 to fit well - a fabric mask tied behind our heads gives a better seal. It also helps keep the N95 mask clean.
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>"It's hard to get the N95 to fit well"
N95, can be effective, but its rating assumes a perfect fit and proper use. Few people outside the medical (and certainly other fields) are using them properly. In the medical field, users go through inservices on proper fit and use. So in the real world, outside such fields and training, they are far less effective. Even worse, there appears to be tons of "fake" N95/KN95 masks.
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Most people cannot do things right and at best approximate them. For masks, have you ever noticed how many morons wear them under the nose, while it is _known_ that infection goes via the nose? As a general rule people are stupid and incompetent and most are not aware of that and hence do not learn unless forced to.
Still, even a badly worn mask does something and this it is about reducing infection rates.
And a a side-note: Things would not be nearly as bad as they are if we did not have those abysmally stup
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You do not need to disinfect them. Just give them a few days ti dry between each use, that will kill any COVID in there nicely. I use a series of 7 clothes hangers to cycle masks though the week.They also do not degrade that fast. The "dispose daily" is simply the easiest way to handle them right, but not the only one. I also have a Draeger P3 mask (half mask with exchangeable filters on the level of an FFP3) and the instructions simply say to change the filters when they are clogged and it gets hard to bre
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, rather than just offering pandemic theatre
getting people to wear any kind of mask properly is already a big win.
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FFP2 is nowadays in good supply and not too expensive anymore so they are widely used.
Re:Mask that actually do something (Score:5, Insightful)
But using them properly (disposing of them after use, or each day) would be costly and there probably isn't enough supply, so health authorities in most countries still go with the DIY cloth mask thing.
This just is not true. You can re-use them if you just dry them out. In fact, the first part to give away are the straps.
Some are even better, for example these https://www.amazon.de/Simpleca... [amazon.de]
have a graphene filter that you can essentially make reusable use by leaving them in sunlight (or UV light) for a while.
Our family of 3 has bought a 40-pack of these things in Summer 2020 and the box is about halfway through. One of these lasts about 1 month to 1,5 months without too much trouble even when you have to go to office every day. And they key point is - as others have said - that it protects YOU as well, not just everybody else like surgical masks do.
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>"FFP2 are masks that actually do something useful, rather than just offering pandemic theatre."
+1.
Even before we knew much about C19, we knew that cloth masks are not all that effective. But at least we had the excuse of not knowing about how C19 spreads. Once it was determined to be aersolized (a long time ago) and not droplet, cloth masks became much more of a pacifier.
>"I do wonder if cloth masks are actually helping."
Most studies of effectiveness of any mask (or respirator) are based on control
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They help. Sure, filtering is not good but they will still get the large aerosol droplets. And they will reduce people touching their faces. Also remember that this is not in any way about preventing infection. It is about reducing infection rates so ICUs do not get overwhelmed.
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Re: Mask that actually do something (Score:2)
Re: Mask that actually do something (Score:2)
Fuck all of you. Fuck you. (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that N95s havent been available since the beginning, on every streetcorner, free for the taking, as well as fitting centers open everywhere, along with a national ramp up of factories to produce them, again, since the beginning, shows that this country, and this world, are run by idiots, or completely evil men - or both most obviously
t. screaming in the wind MD who just doesn't give a fuck anymore. I'm out.
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The fact that N95s havent been available since the beginning, on every streetcorner, free for the taking,
nope, there was a major shortage worldwide in beginning of 2020 for any kind of masks; under what make believe stone were you living?
/. is only read by people in the US
or are you one of those that thinks
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nope, there was a major shortage worldwide in beginning of 2020 for any kind of masks; under what make believe stone were you living?
Lots of excuses have been made about handling of the pandemic and yours is just one of them, and it is typically boring and stupid. If government not only gets out of the way but actively enables solutions then we can do things very quickly, like for example starting up a "new" factory (in an old building.) But that's not what happened, instead governments everywhere including in the USA ignored warnings from mask manufacturers that there would be a shortage.
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
https://www.dall [dallasnews.com]
Re: Fuck all of you. Fuck you. (Score:2)
Almost useless (Score:2)
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I've always said that all that the mask does is keep me from rubbing my nose so much, as I have allergies. It simply keeps me from touching my face. So if that helps me keep viruses off of my hands, then fine. Keeping in mind that the current thinking is that contact transmission is minimal. The single layer of cloth that I can see through mask that I wear does next to nothing past that.
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That is one effect, but read the article again. Or do you think you are smarter than the scientists that did this study?
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Bullshit. The problem is that most people are just stupid and incompetent. It is however no problem to find out how to properly fit a mask in other ways if you are not stupid or incompetent. The "irritant smoke" approach only serves for force the stupid and incompetent to learn because it hurts if they do not.
As to lifetime in face coverings: If the mask dries, two days or so was the last info I have. As to migration, you do disinfect your hands after taking off the mask.
Loving it... (Score:3)
Studies keep coming out telling us how what we've been doing is kinda sub-par, a statement that months ago got you labelled an anti-vaxxer.
NOW we swallow this hook, line and sinker, because the core of the statement is "We've got to do MOAR!!!1!"
Now don't get me wrong, in the meantime I have seen studies that masks have a net positive and I HAVE changed my tune accordingly. My doctor convinced me that the vaccine is a good idea and today I have had three shots.
So anyone going to downvote me just realize that you're doing it to someone who is pro vaccine and does not deny that masks help.
All I am saying is how the hell does anyone at this point still wonder how someone could find this whole thing... less than trustworthy?
Next time you're about to "put one of them idiots in their proper place" just remember things like this.
When you you laugh someone out of the building for asking things that later on turn out to be absolutely correct, you do not get to whine that they are no longer willing to follow your recommendations.
Re: Loving it... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Currently you're modded Flamebait. Looks like you pissed off some antivaxxers.
You're +2 Flamebait though, so my best wishes that you achieve +5 Flamebait.
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Studies keep coming out telling us how what we've been doing is kinda sub-par, a statement that months ago got you labelled an anti-vaxxer.
"We need better masks" is not something that ever labelled you antivax; the topic of mask efficiency was extensively discussed even when covid vaccine was distant. Here is a chronology seen from Europe:
* 7 March 2020, I go to civil construction shops to buy masks, but they are all sold out. Mask shortage will last 3 months.
* 15 March 2020, we see FFP2 masks being used for covid prevention. People complain officials/hospitals have resources not accessible to regular people. We start discussing policy that ma
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This is the "good vs perfect" argument.
The problem is we keep telling people that what they are doing is not perfect instead of focusing on the good that they are doing and the opponents play the "if it isn't good enough, why bother?" angle.
Good is good, better is better, and perfect is a target we will never reach. Keep trying and don't give up.
I wash mine - occasioanlly (Score:1)
Living in Germany, we have all got used to having these little bastards in every jacket pocket, backpack, etc, just to be sure we have one when we need it. I have over a dozen that have been in use for several months each. I occasionally chuck them in the wash, then let them dry for a few days on top of the radiator. I've only had to discard 1, but, I know I have lost many.
When I go out for my afternoon walk, I encounter, on average, one mask every 200 meters, lying on the footpath. I usually pick them
Surgical masks are pretty good (Score:2)
Leave them for people who need them... (Score:2)
For probably the vast majority of us, masks of this nature are not required.
If your daily "outings" right now, are just a trip to the supermarket, just stick a bit of cloth over your face and get about your business quickly.
To go out and buy FFP2 masks or similar, for this kind of activity, is just making them less available for people who REALLY need them - those what work with the public face to face for hours at a time.
It should be noted, that most people just shove a standard cheap fabric mask in their
Filter media is easy. Seal is difficult. (Score:2)
The hard part is guaranteeing that the mask reliably seals against the entire face, including around the nose. This is absolutely, 100% mandatory to achieve any significant level of protection. A one square centimeter gap will allow nearly 50% of inhaled air to bypass a mask completely. A nose bridge, comp
Re: Misinformation, again (Score:2)
That really depends on the viability of viruses once all the water is gone, charge based effects and adherence to the mask. Just because they can pass through the pores doesn't mean much. Then there are statistical issues where the immune system might be be able to stop a single viron but there are some potential snowball effects in early infection which makes initial viral load important etc etc.
Ultimately mask effectiveness can only be measured experimentally by actual infection and illness in vivo, there
Re: Misinformation, again (Score:2)
The way that N95s works isn't solely based upon pore size. Their spun polypropylene design allows for electrostatic trapping of aerosols smaller than the pore size.
https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com]
The "bare" encapsulated virus is ~0.1 micron, and in fact N95's do a fantastic job at filtering at that size (>98%):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]
Worth noting that the electrostatic benefit wears off eventually, and is hard to "recharge" without special procedures (the simplest of which I have heard uses hyd
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The way that N95s works isn't solely based upon pore size. Their spun polypropylene design allows for electrostatic trapping of aerosols smaller than the pore size.
Correct. The worst efficiency is right at the pore size, and it goes up on both sides.
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That is some fine crap you are spewing there. Because humans _cannot_ breathe out the naked virus except in quantities so small as to be irrelevant. It is always in a fluid droplet. Also, if is were outside of fluid, it gets inactivated fast.
Seriously. The article has sound, scientifically valid information. You are trying to sound smart, but all you do is sound really dumb.
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The dominant particle catching method is not direct impact for submicron particles at human-mask-breathing flow rates, it is brownian diffusion leading to impact, aided in the case of N95s and other polypropylene filter systems by electrostatic pulldown. And of course, the virus bearing drops are NOT bare viruses. T
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Wrong. Please read the story again. Also, if you think that fully vaccinated makes you invulnerable, then you are uninformed. It does not.