Meet Molnupiravir, Merck's Pill That Cuts COVID-19 Hospitalization and Death By About Half (arstechnica.com) 181
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: An oral antiviral drug appears to cut the risk of hospitalization and death from COVID-19 by roughly 50 percent in people newly diagnosed with the infection and at risk for severe disease, pharmaceutical company Merck announced Friday morning. The drug-maker and its partner, Ridgeback Biotherapeutics, released top-line results of a Phase III trial, which the companies ended early given the positive results. The companies say they will apply for an Emergency Use Authorization from the US Food and Drug Administration as soon as possible.
The trial enrolled people who had newly tested positive for a SARS-CoV-2 infection and had onset of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 symptoms within just the past five days of starting the trial. The enrollees also had to have at least one risk factor for a poor outcome, such as having obesity, diabetes, heart disease, or being age 60 or above. While some participants received a placebo and standard care, others took an oral dose of the drug every 12 hours for five days. After 29 days of follow-up, 53 out of 377 participants who received the placebo were hospitalized with COVID-19, and eight of those participants died. Among those who received the drug, only 28 of 385 were hospitalized and none of those patients died. Put another way, 7.3 percent of patients on the drug were either hospitalized or died compared with 14.1 percent in the placebo group. Merck also highlighted that the trial was global and that the drug appeared to work equally well against varying SARS-CoV-2 variants, including delta, gamma, and mu. The drug-maker noted that it had viral genetic data to identify variants from 40 percent of participants. The safety data was equally promising, with participants reporting similar numbers of drug-related adverse events between the placebo group than the drug group (11 percent and 12 percent, respectively). About 3.4 percent of people in the placebo group quit the study due to adverse events, while only 1.3 percent quit in the drug group.
The drug at the center of these seemingly smashing results is dubbed molnupiravir -- a name inspired by that of Thor's hammer, Mjolnir. The idea is that the drug will strike down SARS-CoV-2, like a mighty blow from the god of thunder. In an interview with Stat news, Merck's head of research and development, Dean Li, said that the new data proves the drug's mythological force. "Our prediction from our in vitro studies and now with this data is that molnupiravir is named after the right [thing]... this is a hammer against SARS-CoV-2 regardless of the variant." Molnupiravir is a small molecule that wallops the work of a viral RNA-dependent RNA polymerase, an enzyme critical for making copies of RNA viruses, such as SARS-CoV-2. [...] Molnupiravir delivers a precise blow to viral RNA polymerase by posing as a building block for RNA. In the body, molnupiravir is forged into a deceptive ribonucleoside that the polymerase unwittingly incorporates into new strands of viral RNA instead of cytidine. This is essentially lethal. Researchers call the effect a "viral error catastrophe," in which the rate of genetic mutations or errors exceeds a threshold compatible with the virus surviving.
The trial enrolled people who had newly tested positive for a SARS-CoV-2 infection and had onset of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 symptoms within just the past five days of starting the trial. The enrollees also had to have at least one risk factor for a poor outcome, such as having obesity, diabetes, heart disease, or being age 60 or above. While some participants received a placebo and standard care, others took an oral dose of the drug every 12 hours for five days. After 29 days of follow-up, 53 out of 377 participants who received the placebo were hospitalized with COVID-19, and eight of those participants died. Among those who received the drug, only 28 of 385 were hospitalized and none of those patients died. Put another way, 7.3 percent of patients on the drug were either hospitalized or died compared with 14.1 percent in the placebo group. Merck also highlighted that the trial was global and that the drug appeared to work equally well against varying SARS-CoV-2 variants, including delta, gamma, and mu. The drug-maker noted that it had viral genetic data to identify variants from 40 percent of participants. The safety data was equally promising, with participants reporting similar numbers of drug-related adverse events between the placebo group than the drug group (11 percent and 12 percent, respectively). About 3.4 percent of people in the placebo group quit the study due to adverse events, while only 1.3 percent quit in the drug group.
The drug at the center of these seemingly smashing results is dubbed molnupiravir -- a name inspired by that of Thor's hammer, Mjolnir. The idea is that the drug will strike down SARS-CoV-2, like a mighty blow from the god of thunder. In an interview with Stat news, Merck's head of research and development, Dean Li, said that the new data proves the drug's mythological force. "Our prediction from our in vitro studies and now with this data is that molnupiravir is named after the right [thing]... this is a hammer against SARS-CoV-2 regardless of the variant." Molnupiravir is a small molecule that wallops the work of a viral RNA-dependent RNA polymerase, an enzyme critical for making copies of RNA viruses, such as SARS-CoV-2. [...] Molnupiravir delivers a precise blow to viral RNA polymerase by posing as a building block for RNA. In the body, molnupiravir is forged into a deceptive ribonucleoside that the polymerase unwittingly incorporates into new strands of viral RNA instead of cytidine. This is essentially lethal. Researchers call the effect a "viral error catastrophe," in which the rate of genetic mutations or errors exceeds a threshold compatible with the virus surviving.
Windows of efficacy (Score:5, Informative)
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I don't know about that, the ones who aren't vaccinated at this point probably aren't ever going to get vaccinated, unless they're impacted by some sort of mandate to do so that they can't get around with a fake vaccine card or a feigned religious exemption.
Besides, they'd likely refuse this treatment if offered it. I could see iggymanz on his death bed saying "it's only emergency use authorization, it's not approved!" and refusing it, then asking for ivermectin, even though it doesn't even have emergency u
An ER doctor was asked about people refusing care (Score:3)
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I don't know about that, the ones who aren't vaccinated at this point probably aren't ever going to get vaccinated, unless they're impacted by some sort of mandate to do so that they can't get around with a fake vaccine card or a feigned religious exemption.
I believe there is some part of the population which hasn't gotten around to it, or has been frightened by the constant FUD from anti-vaxxers and right-wing nutjobs.
On a side note, I can't help but comment on how the typical self-identified "left wing" constantly railed about how evil big pharma is, including spreading big conspiracy theories about it, until now, during a pandemic, they suddenly realize that the US really is at the forefront of modern medicine after all. The US is and has for a very long time been subsidizing health care research for the rest of the world, who end up getting our medication at a steep discount when it's all said and done. And of course, after the pandemic ends, they'll go back to saying it's evil again.
This is a completely fictitious straw man argument, the complaint that the "left" (and probably no small part of the "right") has against big pharmaceutical corps are business practices.
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I'm no talking about that, I'm talking about the "they don't ever want to create cures, they just want to treat the condition just enough that you keep coming back for more medicine" and then citing examples of shit like diabetes not being cured yet, and other similar ones that frequently appear even here on slashdot.
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I'm no talking about that, I'm talking about the "they don't ever want to create cures, they just want to treat the condition just enough that you keep coming back for more medicine" and then citing examples of shit like diabetes not being cured yet, and other similar ones that frequently appear even here on slashdot.
Well, the companies are capitalist and of course they develop treatments for the most profitable things. There’s a reason we don’t have many new antibiotics for example, or vaccines for diseases that primarily only affect poor countries. It’s true that in America, diabetics often die because insulin is marked up so high and rationing or forgoing it entirely can result in permanent injury or death- there is no need for such profit seeking other than greed it’s not even rolled into r
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Well, the companies are capitalist and of course they develop treatments for the most profitable things.
Ah so that would explain why they never develop treatments for super rare diseases that they'd never see a sizable profit from. Oh wait, except they do. In fact, they do it all the fucking time.
often there are treatments for kidney conditions that could prevent the need for dialysis but patients have been historically urged in many cases to continue the dialysis and forgo proper treatment because it does make them more money.
As somebody who has kidney disease, I happen to know this area very well, and you're so full of shit that it's oozing out of your eyes. In order for what you say to actually be true, there would have to be some grand conspiracy that every fucking nephrologist (who are MDs, by the way) is in on. You don't even start d
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Good, so take your own advice. Don't forget your cross and your bible on the way out.
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Or to stock up on this stuff. Back when there was a bird flu epidemic the UK government made the treatment freely available. You had to send someone who wasn't infected to the pharmacy to get it for you. Of course a lot of people went and got some even if nobody was sick, "just in case". They were often quite open about doing it as well.
It might be a British thing. Low confidence and trust in the government is currently causing petrol shortages.
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It might be a British thing. Low confidence and trust in the government is currently causing petrol shortages.
Or they kicked out 100,000 truckers during Brexit and now find that they do not have enough truckers to deliver goods.
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I think another unfortunate side effect is that it will give people another excuse not to get vaccinated.
That's easily solved by giving it free to anyone who has been properly vaccinated, and making anyone unvaccinated pay through the nose.
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As an aside about efficacy. Roughly 35% in the trial with molnupiravir reported side effects, but 40% who had the placebo reported side effects!
Re: Windows of efficacy (Score:2)
So,um.. we need better placebos?
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They used THC-infused pills for the placebo. It doesn't have to be a placebo with no effects, just known effects...
not for them, good for us (Score:2)
Playing the odds. (Score:2)
After 29 days of follow-up, 53 out of 377 participants who received the placebo were hospitalized with COVID-19, and eight of those participants died.
And the ethics board?
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Not sure what else could be done in terms of ethics, other than running the trial just like it was.
As in, if you gave the drug to all the 377+385 patients in the study, you could still count out 762 patients who didn't get the drug, and observe them. If you gave the drug to 1500 patients, there would still be 1500 patients not receiving it.
Basically, unless you gave an untested drug to the entire population, there would be someone not receiving it. Observing those not receiving it isn't any more unethical t
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There has been examples of where when a working treatment was found, the trial was cut short and the placebo group given what the other group had.
Re:Playing the odds. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Playing the odds. (Score:4, Informative)
That's already happening with this drug. From the second linked article [merck.com]:
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Merck plans to submit an application for Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to the U.S. FDA as soon as possible based on these findings and plans to submit marketing applications to other regulatory bodies worldwide.
They plan to do it "as soon as possible"? Why is it not possible to submit the application for Emergency Use Authorization right away? Did the FDA fax back something like "Hey Merck dudes, I know you wanted us to look at that emergecy use thingie, but only Janet knows where all the forms are, and she's gonna be in Cancun for maybe another ten days. Sorry, hope there is no EMERGENCY! Haha, jk! But when she gets back you should totally submit that thing, looks sweet! - FDA"
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I would guess that the EUA application is not something you can whip out in 10 minutes.
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I see you have no idea how randomized double blind trials work.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]
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After 29 days of follow-up, 53 out of 377 participants who received the placebo were hospitalized with COVID-19, and eight of those participants died.
And the ethics board?
From AP: https://apnews.com/article/mer... [apnews.com]
The results were so strong that an independent group of medical experts monitoring the trial recommended stopping it early.
Re:Playing the odds. (Score:4, Insightful)
Side note: I find it very strange that nearly a thousand people avoided the most researched vaccines ever created with a insignificant number of side effects discovered with billions of shots given. But within 5 days of testing positive, before any major problems, they jumped at a chance for an experimental medication where they get to be one of the first thousand users. Medical science needs beta testers I guess.
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So let me get this straight...
You find is strange that people who make utterly retarded choices about vaccines are also inconsistent, stupid, and hypocritical?
They're not against medicine. They're just convinced that vaccines are some conspiracy and are poison. The letters RNA scare the shit out of them. JJ vax that isn't RNA? They can't tell the difference. They know nothing. They just flail about blindly. Salt of the earth.
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Oakland / Alameda County [acgov.org]
Chicago / Cook County [cookcountyil.gov]
Detroit Vaccine Outreach [detroitnews.com]
LA Mobile Outreach For Hardest Hit Communities [mayorsfundla.org]
At some point, solutions must be embraced and the pulpit pounding ceased. Or collecti
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In it includes this nice line: "The majority of the subjects were male Caucasians."
You can make some pretty good assumptions about the demographics even without that line. The candidates had to: be tested and be able to get treatment within a matter of days while having modera
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I find it very strange
I don't. Combine anti-establishment with promise of a miracle and you describe a not-insignificant group of people, including those who voluntarily run off and huff down horse anti-parasitics they bought from a feed shop. Add to that the fact that many of these medical studies are actually paid and you will have a lot of willing applicants.
If we didn't have so many stupid people out there we wouldn't even need a treatment for the virus.
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And the ethics board?
What about ethics board? There is no medication that can be legally given except to trial volunteers. These people would have ended up in hospital or would have died without this trial just the same.
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And the ethics board?
What about it? This is how you run such studies. If you have very clear results, you can terminate it early. But that is it. Half of the people in the study receiving "standard care" is not an ethics violation. Yes, sometimes doing Science the correct way does kill people. The important thing is not killing more people than if the study was not done at all. Any halfway competent ethics board understands that.
50%? (Score:2)
Re:50%? (Score:5, Insightful)
While Regeneron has an ~80% risk reduction compared to 50%, it requires far more resources (i.e. infusion room, time, monitoring) and risks (i.e. anaphylaxis) as well as a drug-only cost of ~$1250 per dose. Unless we're planning on setting up infusion rooms for monoclonal antibody therapy in shopping malls, so to speak, it's not nearly as helpful as having a pill that can be dispensed at Walgreens.
To give you an idea, for a while here in Seattle we had the capacity to treat 1 person PER DAY at one of our major hospitals with Regeneron. Taking all the area hospitals together, we had capacity for about 10 people per day, give or take. Not particularly efficient or convenient when dealing with hundreds of cases a day.
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To give you an idea, for a while here in Seattle we had the capacity to treat 1 person PER DAY at one of our major hospitals with Regeneron.
My wife is a nurse and is doing a once-a-week rotation helping provide these monoclonal antibody treatments. They’re handling one person per hour, not per day. But that’s still rather resource intensive.
On a side note, she was commenting on how much better the typical vaccinated (“breakthrough”) COVID-19 patient looks than the unvaccinated majority.
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It's frust
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Funny how that is still experimental and the vaccine is approved.
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Careful (Score:5, Interesting)
The smart thing to do is to ensure that whoever gets this drug must be quarantined until they test negative for Covid or there are at least two other equally potent drugs available. The reason being, the virus will mutate to escape this drug. Viruses ALWAYS gain escape mutations. It is a matter of how many point mutations are needed to by the virus to escape susceptibility from the drug. From the name molnupiravir you can instantly tell that this drug is a pyrimidine base analog. Looking at the molecular structure, it is instantly recognizable as a cytidine analog (cytdine is the letter C in RNA). Just from that information, you can guess that the mechanism of this drug, which we used to call NHC, is to mimic cytidine. When the viral polymerase is copying the RNA, instead of using cytidineTP the virus polymerase will try to use molnupiravir (actually a modified form of, but I dont want to complicate things) instead as RNA template. When the virus makes a blunder like that, normally the virus proofreader is supposed to say "what the fuck?" and reject it.. but in this case the proofreader fails. The result is that the virus, when making copies of itself, will (in many circumstances -- I don't want to get into the details) incorporate a G molecule instead of an A and a U instead of C in the RNA code. This means that copies of the virus will have a large number of mutations in it, which is fatal for the virus.
We know that for certain drugs, like remdesivir, just two mutations can reduce the virus' susceptibility to the drug by a factor of 6. Luckily so far, we've seen that resistance to molnupiravir requires more mutations and even those mutations don't improve the virus chances by much. That said, it's a given fact that meaningful viral resistance WILL occur, and that a strain that is not very susceptible to molnupiravir will emerge. This will occur due to random chance, some coronaviruses will have a version of its RNA proofreader that is different enough that it will be meaningfully less susceptible to the molnupiravir. Although with molnupiravir we have seen that when resistance emerges it severely affects the fitness of the virus, from experience with other pathogens we know that if there is selection pressure, resistant strains will improve in fitness and emerge as the dominant strain. Given time, the virus will evolve enough such that they are just as potent as the older strain. This is what we have seen with HIV for example. AZT is effective against HIV for about 6 months until the resistant version, which is different than the non-resistant version by only one DNA mutation emerges. However three different HIV drugs given at the same time exponentially reduce the chance of viruses escaping because now the virus has to have at least 3 mutations in an exact location. The lesson is that it's dangerous to deploy one drug alone as a treatment because it will allow the virus a chance to evolve against it. What doesn't kill it will make it stronger. Therefore it would be wise to wait until there are at least two more drugs of equal potency that don't use the same mechanism of action.
TL;DNR: This drug pretends to be an RNA molecule and the virus' proofreader and copier are too dumb to tell the difference. However, there are bound to be strains of the virus with versions of the proofreader that can actually tell the difference. Therefore it is wisest to not give this drug widely until it can be incorporated as part of a triple drug combination. A triple drug combo would require the virus to have too many simultaneous point mutations to be able to escape them --- thereby reducing the chances of a resistance strain emerging.
Re: Careful (Score:2)
Thanks for taking the trouble to explain that.
BTW, what's with the Horse references, are there people in the US actually taking veterinary Ivermectin ? In most countries it's got a human version available (not for covid obviously. But you can't really stop off label use by their own will)
Maybe it's easier to buy veterinary version without a prescription I guess..
Re: Careful (Score:5, Funny)
Yes people are taking Ivermectin in the US. I say it's a good thing. Horse-to-human STDs are finally down significantly among Republicans.
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The REALLY big news (Score:5, Interesting)
Molnupiravir works against many of the viruses that cause COLDS, too.
Up to now, the FDA has seized upon any possible flimsy, stupid excuse to deny approval for antiviral meds to treat "colds", throwing roadblock after roadblock at every candidate put before them. Like, "we won't approve a drug that has to be taken before a confident, specific diagnosis is available" (which is a major roadblock, because these drugs HAVE to be taken at the first hint of a dripping nose to really make a difference... if you make someone wait a day or two to get lab results first, the window of opportunity has already closed). Or, "we demand perfect results with NO meaningful adverse effects for ANYONE, even if adverse effects are only found among a small, readily-identifiable group (like women on birth control).
Thanks to Covid, Molnupiravir is going to be slam-dunk approved... and once it's approved for SOMETHING, US doctors can legally prescribe it for ANYTHING, even if it's something minor like a RSV or rhinovirus infection in an adult.
It'll probably be 17 years until it's cheap enough to afford without insurance, but if the price is less than the "real" cost of a covid test, we might be able to get almost *any* respiratory infection tentatively diagnosed as 'covid' (with Molnupiravir prescription covered) without insurers DEMANDING a test first, because insurance companies will decide it's more cost-effective to let doctors give Molnupiravir to everyone for anything plausible just to avoid having 1 in 40 patients end up in the ICU for a month.
Pfizer COULD get greedy, of course... but if they play it smart & make it cheap enough to take for 'nuissance' infections, it could become the biggest blockbuster drug in history.
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It would be naive russian roulette to use this widespread ..given the pill frenzy caused by Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine it's a recipe for resistant strains to emerge. We need to wait until there are two more drugs with similar or better performance and then only prescribe it as a triple cocktail (similar to the HIV cocktail ATRIPLA.) I've explained the reasons in my previous comment above titled "Careful." If given to patients as a monotherapy, they must agree to be quarantined until they test negativ
Re: The REALLY big news (Score:4, Informative)
Well, technically, there IS an existing drug candidate that fits the bill for #2 -- Pleconaril. There's no disagreement by anyone that it WORKS, the FDA just got weird about it because it caused 2 or 3 women who were on birth control pills to become pregnant anyway.
I think there were also concerns that women might be indirectly exposed to Pleconaril via metabolites in seminal fluid (never mind the fact that this happens with almost ANY drug taken by men, and the FDA just started getting crazy about it ~20 years ago & using it as an excuse to deny approval for almost ANY drug not intended to treat a life-threatening condition). So... just add a warning to the label telling people to use condoms for a month after taking it, and the problem is legally solved. Pleconaril becomes safe, and you get a highly-effective 2-drug combo.
Of course, I'm assuming Molnupiravir IS actually a new drug, and isn't just a tweaked analogue OF Pleconaril altered for the sake of patentability.
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Is Pleconaril currently approved? What for?
Re: The REALLY big news (Score:2)
The FDA refused to approve it ~20 years ago:
* It absolutely worked. If taken at the first sign of infection (ie, feeling a drip forming in your nose, waking up with a scratchy throat, fever, etc) by a virus sensitive to it (I think rhinovirus, picornavirus, and enterovirus were among those confirmed in trials), it pretty much shut its replication down. It was still up to your immune system & apoptosis to kill off the infected cells and clean up the mess, but from YOUR perspective, the infection stopped
Re: The REALLY big news (Score:2)
The "potential for indirect harm to a fetus due to Pleconaril taken by its mother's male sex partner" part was really a major stretch of logic by the FDA.
"Detectable" doesn't necessarily mean "enough to matter".
* A man might take a few thousand milligrams of pleconaril (or ribavirin) for a cold, but only a few micrograms of its metabolites will ultimately end up in his semen.
* Those few micrograms gradually get flushed out by ejaculation, kind of like if you had a pitcher of water contaminated by something
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Pfizer COULD get greedy, of course...
I think you mean Merck.
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Pfizer COULD get greedy, of course...
I think you mean Merck.
Pfizer is working on a pill too and has reported success in trials.
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Pfizer is working on a pill too and has reported success in trials.
Followed by the usual idiots claiming it's just Ivermectin after a different name, so TAKE YOUR IVERMECTIN!
Re:The REALLY big news (Score:4, Insightful)
Molnupiravir works against many of the viruses that cause COLDS, too.
Up to now, the FDA has seized upon any possible flimsy, stupid excuse to deny approval for antiviral meds to treat "colds", throwing roadblock after roadblock at every candidate put before them.
It's more likely that like antibiotics, overuse will render the drug useless. If it was approved for use against cold viruses then every idiot with a sneeze would be taking it. Should it become common knowledge then idiots will start demanding a prescription for it. The result of this is going to be evolution and like covid-19, it will become more of a bastard.
Bottom line, the problem isn't the drug working or not, it's people abusing the drug because it works.
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I think you're wildly overestimating the danger.
Let's start with the most obvious differences between something like rhinovirus and HIV: rhinovirus doesn't destroy your immune system or form a persistent viral reservoir.
Antiviral meds might enable your body to clear a rhinovirus infection within hours rather than days, but unless you're in really bad shape to begin with, it's GOING to be cleared eventually, regardless. Worst-case, a mutation that gives resistance to the antiviral puts us back to square one,
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I think you're wildly overestimating the danger.
And I thin you are underestimating the power of evolution. Why do you think there are so many antibiotic resistant viruses now?
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Oh good, another drug that will be prescribed incorrectly every time someone sneezes masking an underlying condition or worse.
The FDA does things for a reason, but I guess you've learnt nothing from the our steadily failing anti-biotics overuse, or the opioid epidemic.
Ask your doctor if X is right for you. He will of course say yes because he doesn't give a fuck as long as the gets paid.
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It's quite possible that this medication is cheaper than a proper expensive + more reliable Covid test. In that case the recommendation to people would be: Have the cheap test at home (they are delivered in packs of seven, so no problem). At the s
They are charging the US $700/treatment (Score:2)
The US government made an advance purchase of 1.7m doses of the drug at a cost of $1.2bn, and the company said on Friday it would use a “tiered pricing approach” to reflect countries’ ability to pay for the drug.
https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
Fuck off, Merck (Score:2)
I don't trust you one bit, ever since you paid Elsevier to create four fake magazines aimed at doctors to get them to prescribe the wrong medication to patients with fake studies, just so you could make money, literally figuratively walking over dead bodies.
And [Mjolnirpredatorvirus] is an exceptionally stupid name for a pill. No it doesn't work better because it is hard to read or pronounce. It only makes it look like that's what you want people to think. And there's that old psychopath behavior pattern ag
Less effective... (Score:2)
But, it's less effective than monoclonal antibodies, just cheaper and easier to administer. Easier to administer means more profit for hospitals, even if it's less effective.
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Easier to administer means it can be given to many more people. 50% effective across 10,000 patients is better than 100% effective given to 1000 patients.
Re:protease inhibitor (Score:5, Informative)
Not a protease inhibitor. That's what it would be if it inhibited protease activity. This is a nucleoside analog. Completely different class of drug. But thanks for trying!
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Not a protease inhibitor. That's what it would be if it inhibited protease activity. This is a nucleoside analog. Completely different class of drug. But thanks for trying!
Sure, but still don't underestimate the value of being easily available in the farm supply store!
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Well, let's have a look at the molecules from an easy source you could have just looked up yourself without having to ask scare questions:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
So... nothing alike.
Re:protease inhibitor (Score:5, Informative)
Both the Merck & Pfizer "pill" do basically the same thing. They act as a protease inhibitor. Now, there is something else that is a protease inhibitor that has been around a LONG time too. Ivermectin. But, I bet when Merck & Pfizer release their "new pill" it won't be as inexpensive as the "horse paste" .
PolitiFact has already addressed [politifact.com] this errant line of thinking:
Pfizer described the drug as a protease inhibitor, which is "designed to block the activity of the main protease enzyme that the coronavirus needs to replicate." That would stop symptoms from worsening, a spokesperson said.
Zero Hedge seized on the protease inhibitor fact, claiming "that's exactly what ivermectin" does.
Pfizer’s protease inhibitor is not similar to that of an animal medicine and does not use the same mechanism, a Pfizer spokesperson told us.
Benjamin Neuman, chief virologist at Texas A&M University's Global Health Research Complex, said ivermectin’s main job is to block ion channels that parasites use to store up positively and negatively charged atoms. SARS-CoV-2 does not have any ion channels like the ones that ivermectin blocks, so there is not an obvious way for ivermectin to work in COVID-19, he said.
Re:protease inhibitor (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup, people seem to have slept through basic biology. Viruses and parasites are different things. Ivermectin works great for intestinal worms for horses, as well as river parasites that cause blindness in humans. It's a great drug, and inexpensive so it can be used in third world countries where parasites are more common. But no evidence that it does anything for viruses.
So here's the thinking I suspect happens. A LOT of people really aren't that political, as far as ideology, but they have a very contrarian attitude. Distrust the vaccine, because so-called experts are touting them. But a relative died from the pandemic, and you want to avoid that. So you hear about a cheap treatment that the "experts" are saying isn't going to work. But the experts lie and trying to suppress the real treatments that are cheap and won't make big pharma lots of money. Then... how do you get some without a prescription? Pet supply store, farm supply store, aquarium dealers, etc...
The thing is, because these people are so contrarian, you can't talk them out of it. Logic is useless. I know people like this, even relatives. No medical training but somehow they know more than their general practioner doctor does.
Re: protease inhibitor (Score:2, Insightful)
> Yup, people seem to have slept through basic biology.
It is not that they just slept through basic biology or that they are simply stubborn and have the head full of conspiracy theories... they actually are stupid and don't understand what they are talking about.
They all believe to be scientists because they read, somewhere on the internet, a study from someone that seemed legit that says that something they have freely available in their farm perhaps worked in a couple of cases, of course not understan
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Growing up there wsa other stuff. Like the perfect inexpensive device that raised your mileage 50% but it was being covered up and hidden by Detroit so that no one could get it. Weird stuff that a lot of otherwise smart people would believe.
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Or, you could get a vaccine with fewer side effects and greater efficacy. Wow, look at how lackluster ivermectin looks in comparison!
In other stories, COVID-19 vaccines do not treat heartworm. Sorry about those dogs, eh?
And finally tonight, news from the natural experiment of ivermectin use in the Southern United states: Significant numbers of people take ivermectin, eschew the approved COVID-19 vaccines, and COVID-19 transmission spikes cause ICUs to overflow.
Re:protease inhibitor (Score:4, Interesting)
"Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. "
Only one Egyptian study showed statistically significant reductions and but the data was falsified (and also plagiarised other papers) and so the study was retracted. Any meta analysis that draws conclusions based on that study is also junk.
In fact another meta analysis lead by Dr Andrew Hill retracted theirs for that explicit reason. They also stated that without the falsified study Ivermectin showed no statistically meaningful impact on the treatment of COVID-19.
So the question is, why Pierre Kory hasn't retracted his study. Perhaps it's because he has been singing the praises of this "miracle drug" (his words) long before it was prudent for any scientist to do so and has painted himself into a corner. Perhaps it's because the "Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance" (FLCCC) that he is the president is a wildly questionable fringe group whose website is basically an anecdote laced dumpster fire that boosts ivermectin from every page. It raises questions about their motivations to persist because it sure as fuck isn't based on hard evidence.
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You have no scientific training but think you know more than a team of MDs.
Let me guess, THESE MDs are no good because they go against your bias.
Just checked, and study #3 is the totally discredited study by A Elgazaar, who made up 80% of the patients and 100% of the test results.
And I think you will find that THESE MDs are actually a bunch of clowns you CLAIM they are MDs, PhDs etc. with a wide range of publications, but are refusing to give their names.
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Let's see what the manufacturer of ivermectin has to say about it. https://www.merck.com/news/mer... [merck.com]
Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 for evidence of efficacy and safety. It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:
No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.
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FYI
The Journal of Evidence-Based Medicine is the official English language journal of the Chinese Cochrane Centre
(Asian)Evidence-Based Medicine is new, since the late to mid 1990's. In my opinion, this is a method of creating evidence for some of Traditional Chinese Medicine. At least it started out this way.
Bd news about Pierre Kory (Score:3)
> The seed was planted late in December, when Dr. Tess Lawrie watched Dr. Pierre Kory
Yep, that's how this got started - Pierre Kory making claims. Lawrie watched Kory tell the US Senate that Ivermectin prevents transmission of COVID. After that there was falsified data and all that, but it pretty much started with Kory, who said that you take Ivermectin it "obliterates COVID transmission", you can't get the virus. Let's see what's new with Kory these days ...
Kory's daughter, who was taking Ivermectin,
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For a debunking, it seems quite weak. Lawrie's career is in evidence based medicine, to the extent that she's worked with the Cochrane Collaboration, and her research is listed in their library.
Re:protease inhibitor (Score:5, Informative)
PolitiFact has already addressed [politifact.com] this errant line of thinking:
While it is indeed errant thinking to suppose ivermectin would target the same pathway, I have to cringe at the gross misunderstanding to suppose molecules have function inviduated into "parasite molecules" and "virus molecules." Lots of people patting themselves on the back for "knowing" it's a "virus molecule." If it worked like that no one would have even thought to screen ivermectin against covid in the first place.
In actual fact, the whole reason ivermectin was considered was because of observed antiviral activity against other viruses such as HIV. And in fact it showed a strong effect in vitro on SARS-CoV-2 replication in HeLa lines. A possible mechanism is that it acts as a nuclear import inhibitor by binding to the importin IMP-alpha.
The problem is that in vitro != in vivo. (If in vitro was all that mattered then drinking bleach to kill covid would actually be a good idea. Hey, it died in the petri dish!) There's a whole host of things that can keep a molecule taken as a pill from making it through your digestive tract, through your circulatory system, through your tissue, into the cell/replication sites in the right form and the right concentration to be effective (can even get inactivated or absorbed by gut bacteria).
So let's just be clear that the reason ivermectin is not a good treatment for covid is because it hasn't panned out in clinical trials, not because it's "designed for parasites" and only dummies would take it for anything else.
(And not to say anything about Benjamin Neuman's take, as I hardly trust Politico to quote scientists correctly.)
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I don't disagree.
The problem is that in vitro != in vivo. (If in vitro was all that mattered then drinking bleach to kill covid would actually be a good idea. Hey, it died in the petri dish!)
I imagine fire works pretty well at killing SARS-CoV-2 in vitro too ... :-)
Re:protease inhibitor Vs Molecular docking (Score:3)
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From wikipedia:
In 2021, a provisionally accepted controversial paper in Frontiers in Pharmacology on COVID-19 and the use of the antiparasitic drug Ivermectin was ultimately rejected by the editors as it contained "unsubstantiated claims and violated the journal's editorial policies".
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Well if PolitiFact says it's not true... How about reading what an article in the American Journal of Therapeutics has to say about it? Funny thing, apparently drugs can have more than one kind of effect on the body. Who woulda' thunk?
https://journals.lww.com/ameri... [lww.com]
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That article is a meta-analysis of other studies, and the main two studies used in that meta-analysis have been retracted as fraudulent.
https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com]
https://grftr.news/why-was-a-m... [grftr.news]
Re:protease inhibitor (Score:5, Interesting)
The results from certain countries in Africa were most likely due to a prevalence of parasites in the same population that got COVID infections.
When the person is hospitalized with COVID, and given nothing, the body has to fight COVID at the same time as it's leeched off by a parasite.
When the person is hospitalized with COVID, and given anti-parasitic drugs, the parasites die. The body does better fighting off the second disease.
Ivermectin should be recommended to everyone who has a parasitic infection and gets COVID. Their survivability would probably increase.
Re: protease inhibitor (Score:3)
This is the same with HCQ and common antibiotic prescriptions in Southeast Asian countries. Every time someone gets sick with the flu they are given these. And people get better with than without. This is fine and normal.
The problem is that the people and even academic analysis link a correlation between the two. Of course further studies designed to specifically to answer the question. unfortunately dismiss the link. The true relation chain being that secondary infections from parasites and bacteria ar
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I like how you put quotes around "pill" as if this is both objectively and subjectively not actually a pill and we're just being coy with the term. It's so good that we're able to realise your entire post is full of nonsense only 5 words in.
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It's a paste.
https://www.amazon.com/Ivermec... [amazon.com]
You fucking retard.
Re: Bang for Buck ? (Score:2)
Uttar Pradesh seems to trend very frequently on slashdot :)
Very strange.
Maybe all the slashdot oldies have outsourced their posts to some call center in Noida
But more importantly, what is this $2 kit ? Never heard or read about it. It actually works ? Or this is another joke like the Horse XYZ thing here
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They've definitely outsources something... their critical thinking.
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You mean the country that arrested people for saying cow piss doesn't cure covid? https://www.vice.com/en/articl... [vice.com]
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Ivermecitin probably don't work very well on the first world, as what it does where it work is to kill the parasites that normally would help covid ending the life of the patients.
Re:I'll bet (Score:5, Funny)
Would any MDs please tell me why I have had this ringing in my ear for the past year after a COVID infection?
Why don't you try answering your damn phone?
Re:I'll bet (Score:4, Insightful)
"As I explained previously, " and yet no one believed your "new age bullshit". Funny how that works, eh?
Re: I'll bet (Score:2)
Re: I'll bet (Score:5, Informative)
No, FDA approval typically requires showing that the drug is both safer and more effective than the current standard of care. Formally [fda.gov], the core question is whether the benefits outweigh the risks, and that's pretty accurate for drugs that treat new diseases like COVID-19, but once a treatment exists on the market, "do benefits outweigh the risks" turns into a question of whether it is strictly better than what is currently used (with price not counting as a factor).
There are a few other cases, like when somebody wants to make a generic version of a drug. In that case, they have show to that their version works the same way as the one currently being sold.