Heart Problems After Vaccination Are Very Rare, Federal Researchers Say (nytimes.com) 176
The coronavirus vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna may have caused heart problems in more than 1,200 Americans, including about 500 who were younger than age 30, according to data reported on Wednesday by researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Still, the benefits of immunization greatly outweighed the risks, and advisers to the C.D.C. strongly recommended vaccination for all Americans 12 and older. The New York Times: The heart problems reported are myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle; and pericarditis, inflammation of the lining around the heart. The risk is higher after the second dose of an mRNA vaccine than after the first, the researchers reported, and much higher in men than in women. But overall, the side effect is very uncommon -- just 12.6 cases per million second doses administered. The researchers estimated that out of a million second doses given to boys ages 12 to 17, the vaccines might cause a maximum of 70 myocarditis cases, but would prevent 5,700 infections, 215 hospitalizations and two deaths. Agency researchers presented the data to members of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, which makes recommendations on vaccine use in the United States. (The scientists grouped pericarditis with myocarditis for reporting purposes.) Most cases were mild, with symptoms like fatigue, chest pain and disturbances in heart rhythm that quickly cleared up, the researchers said. Of the 484 cases reported in Americans under age 30, the C.D.C. has definitively linked 323 cases to vaccination. The rest remain under investigation.
No way. (Score:5, Funny)
How in the heck does a mind-control chip inserted into the deltoid cause heart problems?
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How in the heck does a mind-control chip inserted into the deltoid cause heart problems?
Bad 5G coverage in the area.
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How in the heck does a mind-control chip inserted into the deltoid cause heart problems?
It interacts with the magnetizition the vaccine causes.
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It broke my heart! (cardio broketitus)
The term you're looking for is takotsubo cardiomyopathy. It's an actual thing.
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Re:No way. (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe something to do with the heat from the Jewish space laser? Or maybe interactions with chemtrails? Hard to say. It's too early to come up with an all-encompassing conspiracy theory at this point. Watch this space.
BTW, I just had my 2nd dose of Gates' mind-control chips today. Get vaccinated. It's the best defence against becoming Woke. Join us!
Citizen - this goes much further. It now includes Italian space lasers that zap the Dominion voting machines to change the votes. https://abovethelaw.com/2021/0... [abovethelaw.com]
Looks like the Republican party has fallen into the pit of making shit up, then sane people have to prove the made up shit wrong, which they will just use as evidence that the made up shit is right.
It's complicated.
Re:No way. (Score:4, Informative)
Looks like the Republican party has fallen into the pit of making shit up, then sane people have to prove the made up shit wrong, which they will just use as evidence that the made up shit is right.
That's not working out so well for Rudy Giuliani at the moment... :-)
The Ruling Suspending Rudy Giuliani’s Law License Is Kind of Hilarious [slate.com]
Who cares if a few foot soldiers die (Score:2)
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Common side effect (Score:5, Insightful)
Myocarditis is a common side effect of coronavirus, and even the flu. So if myocarditis is something that worries you, then you should get the vaccine and probably flu shots, too.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Insightful)
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I don't understand how people can rationalize *not* getting vaccinated: statistically speaking you're orders of magnitude more likely to contract the 'rona and die than you are to suffer from clots after AZ or *cardia after Pfizer, so it's a no-brainer to be risk-averse and get vaccinated.
I agree with most of what you say. But the data for the 12-17 year old children has just started rolling in and it is also obvious that the cost-benefit analysis for them is different than for older people. But it does in fact seem like they would benefit from getting one of the safer vaccines. It is however not clear whether this will be the case for even younger children.
That said, you may also want to look at other risk factors for young people than Covid-19. Ok, so maybe 3-4 out of a million in that age
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*) Ok, so maybe 3-4 out of a million in that age range will die if they contract the virus. -> Ok, so maybe 3-4 out of a million in that age range will die from the virus if they are not vaccinated.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Interesting)
You do realize that there are other consequences apart from death, don't you? Just to pick a random one. [medrxiv.org] Does not require hospitalization, and in fact, in young adults, long-term post-infection complications are disturbingly common after mild infections.
Heck, we're literally talking about one of those consequences of infection (myocarditis, which is rarely fatal with treatment, but can be serious) in this thread. The most common cause of myocarditis is viruses. Here's the risk ratio of hospitalization from COVID vs. having a case of myocarditis by age group [substack.com], based on current US infection and hospitalization rates. Except that the number on the left will be rising strongly in younger age groups over the coming month due to Delta, which spreads easily among the young and has double the risk of hospitalization after accounting for age, vaccination status, etc.
More concerningly re: Delta: I've been following the UK numbers closely (the UK is a nice case study of the spread of Delta through a well-vaccinated country). There were two main hopes with the new wave. One, that due to the younger cohort and fact that the vaccinated who do get infected tend toward milder infection, hospitalizations would be down. Thusfar, this appears to be being realized. And two, that for the same reasons, those that were hospitalized would have a better prognosis, as is usually the case. However, just the opposite seems to be happening. The rate of growth in ventilator bed occupancy due to COVID has been significantly faster than the rate of growth in general COVID bed occupancy. This is even more concerning because ventilators are a more lagging indicator. This needs watching, but it's not an encouraging sign.
But again, to reiterate:
1) It is not about "whether you die or don't die". There's serious long-term consequences associated with COVID, even with mild infections in a sizable minority of cases (esp. in young adults)
2) The spread of the disease through a partially-vaccinated population is a perfect breeding ground for vaccine evasion (akin to taking only half a dose of antibiotics)
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You do realize that there are other consequences apart from death, don't you?
Yes. And if you read my post you will see that I would recommend getting vaccinated if you are 12 years or older. For the younger children the data are not in yet.
More concerningly re: Delta: I've been following the UK numbers closely (the UK is a nice case study of the spread of Delta through a well-vaccinated country). There were two main hopes with the new wave. One, that due to the younger cohort and fact that the vaccinated who do get infected tend toward milder infection, hospitalizations would be down. Thusfar, this appears to be being realized. And two, that for the same reasons, those that were hospitalized would have a better prognosis, as is usually the case. However, just the opposite seems to be happening. The rate of growth in ventilator bed occupancy due to COVID has been significantly faster than the rate of growth in general COVID bed occupancy. This is even more concerning because ventilators are a more lagging indicator. This needs watching, but it's not an encouraging sign.
But we do not know (?) the age distribution of those in ventilators. It could well be that a large proportion of the older UK population has been vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine which is much less effective against the Delta variant (67%). And if it is also worse at protecting against serious cases that may be the explanation. But I guess
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Yes but 67% what? 67% of people don't get symptoms? But the people in the other 33% aren't ending up in hospital they're just getting mild symptoms and can pass the virus on to other people AFAIK. The important thing is that vaccinated people are far less likely to need intensive care in a hospital.
The other important thing is that people of all ages are far less likely to end up with long COVID if they get vaccinated, currently
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AZ is 92% effective against hospitalization from Delta, vs. 95% for Pfizer. Both work well at preventing hospitalizations.
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Not only does covid carry the higher possibility of death, it's more likely to cause this heart inflammation, and causes MIS-C (multi system inflammatory syndrome in children). Not to mention all the other problems. Long covid, long term lung problems, long term brain fog? Vaccine doesn't cause that at all. So why would you compare *only* death, against any side effect?? Whatever the side effect from the vaccine, covid is way more likely to cause that, cause a bunch of other problems, and cause death. What an obnoxiously stupid take, par for the antivaxxer course.
You obviously did not understand my post. My point is not that youngsters should not get the vaccine. If you read my post you will see that I acknowledge that the evidence is suggesting that they should at least down to 12 years of age. And yes, part of that is the non-lethal effects of Covid-19. So get the vaccine and move on.
My point is that the Covid-19 discussion is overshadowing more serious issues that children are facing. Covid-19 is simply not anywhere near the top of the list of the biggest threats
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My point is that the Covid-19 discussion is overshadowing more serious issues that children are facing. Covid-19 is simply not anywhere near the top of the list of the biggest threats to the health of children. And sure a comparison of number of deaths is simplistic. For all of these problems the actual number of children that die are only the tip of the iceberg.
This seems like a weird take? Yes there are a lot of other issues that pose a higher risk to young people than Covid. However we don't happen to have a vaccine lying around that will prevent those other issues.
Yes the question of whether/how children should be vaccinated is being approached with greater urgency than might be merited strictly on the direct risk to them, but per the above point it is something we do have a relatively simple and effective fix for, and it doesn't do a lot of good to sit arou
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Are you sure? [healthline.com]
(emphasis added)
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The whole COVID and suicide thing is fascinating. People are just so sure it has to be true, even the ones who aren't using it as an excuse for being selfish dicks.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Interesting)
But at the same time around 260 kids per million (US numbers) will die of other causes one of the leading ones being suicide which has increased greatly during the epidemic.
Citation needed. This has been one of the claims all along, but it hasn't been backed up by data. The preliminary statistics from the CDC actually indicated suicides decreased in 2020. In response, I've heard some claims that it increased for kids (while decreasing overall) but I haven't seen any data that backs it up. Those claims are mostly based on anecdotes (ie: my kids pediatrician says she's seen a 50% increase in suicide attempts). I have seen some examples based on faulty analysis of data. For example, there was some data from some county in Wisconsin or Minnesota (sorry, don't recall the specifics) which showed teen suicide rates increased. Except when I dug further in, the conclusion I saw was that 2019 was actually an unexplained aberration, being statistically out of line with yearly data from 2015 to 2018, and that 2020 was just a return to the norm.
I had hoped to dig into the CDC data to figure out if there were any age specific trends in suicide rates, but I was unable to find where to get any of the raw data from. But it's been several months since that data was released by the CDC, and I've yet to see any reports that even just the youth-specific claims are backed up by the CDC data. And that makes me very suspicious that it is not.
So again, where is your evidence of this?
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Maybe because children are the future and old people dying is both less tragic and more acceptable - and should be.
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It's the other way around. Kids are cheap to make, but experienced old people are expensive.
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Lol. Mod parent up. If we're telling brutal truths, might as well get them right.
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Maybe because children are the future and old people dying is both less tragic and more acceptable - and should be.
Tell that to your dying loved one as the hospital struggles to sustain enough Wisdom and Experience to sustain life. Let me know the next time we find it easy or simple to replace that with a kiosk, because I can think of a few million child workers we've been able to do that with.
And if children are our future, then perhaps we should stop Greed N. Corruption from screwing them.
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Maybe because children are the future and old people dying is both less tragic and more acceptable - and should be.
You sure about that? For example, Donald Trump has 5 children and Stephen Hawking is dead ...
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It's very easy to rationalize whatever the people around you believe. All the more so because we do it habitually. Most of us aren't aware how much we rationalize decisions that have been made *for us* by our circumstances.
If you were born in the 15th Century you'd almost certainly believe in witchcraft. If you read witch hunting manuals from the time, the thing that's striking about them is how the authors are unlike what you'd expect; they are neither stupid, ignorant, nor fools. Monty Python and the
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I don't understand how people can rationalize *not* getting vaccinated: statistically speaking you're orders of magnitude more likely to contract the 'rona and die than you are to suffer from clots after AZ or *cardia after Pfizer, so it's a no-brainer to be risk-averse and get vaccinated.
The anti-vaxxer arm of the Republican party is not very good with number cypherin'. So if one person is badly affected by the vaccination, it outweighs 600,000 plus dying of the disease the vaccine is created to defend against.
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I can answer that.
(for context, my first shot was AZ, and my second will be pfizer in four days, woohoo!)
When it comes to being rational, I personally should have not gotten vaccinated at all yet. I should have waited for the third-generation vaccines, probably next summer, when everything is known, and tested, and long-term results are well understood.
That's because for me, personally, I lose nothing by being isolated at home, enjoy it, and have ways to deal with the mental health consequences. Mine's be
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You are overestimating the average intelligence. Go read some threads on ar15.com and you will realize how absolutely, absurdly stupid many people are. These are the same people who can't differentiate between "X people have died after receiving the vaccine and so far no patterns" and "OMG X people have been killed by the vaccine, the CDC even sed sozzzz!".
Absolute fucking bottom feeders, and frankly many of them can't die soon enough. That said I know some people who are actually decent people otherwise bu
Look up a YouTuber named hbomberguy (Score:2)
The TL DR is the media gives the theories credence because hey, free ratings, there's a ton of crooks out there willing to fake data and it's super quick to make fake data and slower than dirt to prove the data is fake. Sorta like how debunking 5 minutes of lies takes 30 minutes.
Oh, and politics. There are people with a vested interest in keeping vaccination rates low because it's been shown to hurt the
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It SUCKS, don't get me wrong, but you're not gonna die from it.
Four million people have died from it.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Interesting)
Over 600,000 confirmed in the U.S. (and about 1.1 million estimated based on excess deaths and all the dead collected without a confirming test).
The most ironic and sobering is of course Deputy Trujillo.
Trujillo, age 33, died of covid19 on May 28th is survived by his wife and three-year-old son.
He had rejected the vaccine and on May 7th posted, "I have an immune system" on Facebook.
The immune system doesn't have a *clue* what covid19 is yet. A vaccine helps your immune system recognize Covid and start to work before it's comletely out of control in your body.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Insightful)
In the official tally, but much of the developing world has had very limited testing ability, and in some places, even poor recordkeeping in general. As of May, the best estimate for the true toll was around 7 million [healthpolicy-watch.news]. Despite how small of a percentage of the global population has been infected thusfar, due to control measures.
But I think the focus on deaths alone is highly misguided. The current estimate for the number of "long covid" cases in England - just England (pop 66,7M) - is 2 million [bbc.com]. Even if that number turns out to be inflated, it's still a massive public health impact far beyond just deaths.
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Contradicting yourself there, by your number 1 in 25 will die from it. For young people I'd say the bigger concern is long COVID, it's causing breathing difficulties, brain fog, extreme lethagy and many other symptoms for huge numbers of people, in the UK over a million people now have long covid, it's probably five to ten times higher in the US. So sure, it might not kill you but even if you're young it might fuck you for t
Re: Common side effect (Score:2)
So you posted just to say exactly what was said in the original comment? The narcissism is strong with you
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Interesting)
Was the child in your scenario also hit by a meteor while in a plane crash and then eaten by a shark, too?
The number vaccination deaths is vanishingly small. There have been a handful from anaphylaxis (India for example had their first vaccine death last week, due to this) and blood clots, but this is vs. 2,8 billion vaccine doses given around the planet. All age groups that vaccines are approved for [substack.com] have far higher risk from COVID than from vaccination.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably, yes. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) reports illness and death coincident with vaccines. Investigation is required to determine if there is a causal effect from the vaccine.
Considering upwards of 150 million vaccinated people in the US, 5,993 is not a whole lot of deaths, it's about what you'd expect for 150,000,000 people the few days after the time of vaccination (depending on ages involved).
And I know, not all deaths would have been reported to VAERS, but it's still not enough to draw conclusions. We should be concerned about it and to look into those, but there's not enough data in just the numbers to come to specific decisions.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Informative)
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> technically, a doctor would need to file a report if a person got their shot and then died in a car accident on their way home.
To that point in terms of this story, the car accident would not likely be heart related but could be anaphylaxis outside of the 15 minute window they have people wait. That's why it's a good idea to get vaccinated at a grocery store pharmacy. You wait your 15 minutes, then you go shopping for groceries for another 15-30 minutes. If anything was going to happen, it would def
Re:Common side effect (Score:4, Informative)
Except that they're misusing VAERS data regardless. That just means that 6k people died shortly after being vaccinated, not that 6k people died of vaccination. You can submit anything to VAERS. In a famous case, as a demonstration, one researcher submitted a report that after a flu vaccination, his skin turned green, muscles ripped out of his clothing, and he turned into the Incredible Hulk. It was published.
The thing is, that people making these VAERS claims know this because in order to even be able to search the dataset, you have to click to confirm that you have read a disclaimer [cdc.gov] that points out that "VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases".
The point of VAERS is not to take everything at face value, but rather, to look for statistical anomalies and areas to focus additional safety research on. Which again, the disclaimer that you have to click through to be able to search it points out.
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Ok look, I got vaccinated...I did the risk/rewards calculations for MYSELF and decided it was the best way and quickest way I could feel I could safely get back out into society and have a normal life again.
But I don't get you and others harping on this "selfish" argument.
Look we are individuals. We each (as far as we know) get ONE shot at lif
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That's all great, until these dumb fucks act as incubators for SARS-Covid Version 2024, now far more deadly and with a different spike protein for your pleasure!
If anything, we need the current covid to mutate very quickly, keep the current spike protein but become about 100X more deadly. Sure, some good people will die who couldn't take vaccine or for whom it didn't work well, but that would be far outweighed by killing a huge percentage of the dumbest fucking vermin in this country.
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Actually, from what I've been reading, a virus as it mutates, while it often will select to be more infections, it often also selects to be less deadly and harmful.
Usually, but not in this case. In India, the B.1.617.2 strain (Delta) is showing about half again higher CFR than previous strains, reaching levels that are similar to what the Alpha strain showed back before doctors learned more about how to treat it.
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I have a 99.98% chance of survival with my own immune system developed over millions of years.
Oh, there is that number again. You folks love that number. Did you bother to also calculate the survival rate of the vaccine? I'm betting not.
Even if we give you the most favorable assumptions (ie: we assume that EVERY death reported to VAERS was due to the vaccine...which is not even remotely the case, but I'll give it to you just for fun), 150 million have received both doses, and there were 5479 death reports to VAERS. So the survival rate of the vaccine would be 99.996%
99.98% survival = why should you
Re: Common side effect (Score:2)
Can you predict the long term effects of SARS-COV-2?
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People who make statements like the OP completely discount this factor. They're entire position is based on the assumption that SARS-CoV-2 has exactly two outcomes: You die, or you recover 100%.
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Yes. It's extremely rare for vaccines to have long term effects (except immunization). Viral infections on the other hand....
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So we can't risk the fact that there MIGHT be long term effects from the vaccine, while simultaneously dismissing the fact that there are KNOWN long term effects from the virus? Do you also invest your retirement savings in the lottery because the stock market might crash? Do you not install smoke detectors in your house because they might malfunction and set your house on fire?
Jesus Christ, the mental hoops you people will jump through.
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We don't understand the need for vaccination or why people are pushing for everyone to get vaccinated. If the vaccines work, get yours and STFU. I have a 99.98% chance of survival with my own immune system developed over millions of years.
I knew it. You're six years old. Now that I know your chances of survival, that explains your inability to do fourth-grade math.
You must be six years old, because only people in that age group have such a low risk of death. Even in people 10 to 19, the survival rate is only 99.8%, i.e. you're underestimating the CFR by a factor of ten [worldometers.info].
Worldwide, your survival chances are only about 98% if you get sick. So on average, you're underestimating how often COVID kills by a factor of 100.
So I'm going to assume
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Name some "side effects of vaccines that don't show up until years later", please.
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Anecdotally, I know 10x as many people who have been vaccinated as have gotten COVID. Zero have died from the vaccine. Three have died from COVID. In fact, in the entire U.S., only one person with heart inflammation after vaccination died, and even that one death is not known to have been caused by the vaccine.
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I have much better odds of surviving by letting my immune system do its job, than in getting the jab.
Where do you get THAT 'fact' from? Assuming your 99.9x% survival rate is correct (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and make the 'x' = 9), that is still a 1 in 10000 chance of dying from the virus. On the other hand, you have way less that a 1 in a MILLION chance of dying from the jab. Please explain the loony toon math you used to arrive at the conclusion that a 1 in 10000 chance of dying is 'much better' than a 1 in a MILLION chance of dying.
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Hate to disappoint you, but nobody in my entire life has ever called me a lefty! I never, ever, advocated for everyone to be forced to be vaccinated. I do, however, think that anti-vaxxers are complete morons, regardless of which party they belong to.
So take your assumptions and shove them up your ass.
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My odds of dying from the virus are statistically insignificant (99.9x% survival rate for most age groups). It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY the vaccine will help me in any appreciable way. I have much better odds of surviving by letting my immune system do its job, than in getting the jab. So, why do I need the jab at all?
Fortunately you statistically insignificant folks are pretty close to the only ones dying now. Almost all the COVID deaths in the US now are among the unvaccinated.
An Associated Press analysis of available government data from May shows that “breakthrough” infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for fewer than 1,200 of more than 853,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations. That’s about 0.1%.
https://www.latimes.com/scienc... [latimes.com]
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Reading around the more dimwitted Internet forums, they simply don't buy this. Or they imagine tens of thousands of vaccine deaths being covered up. Or they think the statistics about people who died after getting the vaccine (from, say, an auto accident or cancer they had prior, or random heart attacks, or being shot, or whatever) mean all those people died _from_ the vaccine.
Or the real clever (lol) ones make good yuk-yuk jokes like "Sure, but all the people dying from the vaccine are 100% all vaccinated,
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These aren't our best and brightest, folks.
And I'm totally good with Darwinism in that regard. Still we have to protect the people who can't get vaccinated through no fault of their own, but we already do that as best we can when it comes to other preventable diseases. COVID will be no different in that regard.
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"Remember 1/2 of the population has below average intelligence"
The average ain't all that bright either.
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First, the rate of COVID deaths is really hard to calculate. It only started to affect significant numbers in Apr 2020, already a quarter of the way into the year. It shot up in Apr, then people got scared and started masking and distancing and washing, so the rates dropped down again. By Jul people were getting complacent and the rates went up again. People temporarily did the right thing again and the rates dropped in Aug and Sep. Around about Oct people in general were just plain sick of following COV
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The odds of serious consequences from Covid are minuscule, unless you have comorbidities (sp?).
The most common comorbidity, obesity, covers more than 42% of the U.S. population. Factor in age, and a majority of Americans have at least one comorbidity.
In fact, if you remove the CDC/WHO crappola of classifying a death as Covid-caused simply because the corpse tested positive or the Dr writing the cert thought they exhibited symptoms; the %age death risk is about the same as a mean flu.
Patently false. The rules for COVID reporting are exactly the same as the rules for flu reporting. If the reported death numbers are higher than for flu, it means the death risk is not the same.
Then look at the risks. Again, small. But, none of the so-called vaccines have been approved by the FDA except for emergency use. That means that if you have a serious complication and it can be tied to the "vaccine" you can't sue the Pharm -- they got immunity (no pun intended) by that emergency classification.
It takes ten to fifteen years to get a vaccine approved for non-emergency use. If you're waiting for non-emergency approval, you'll probably die from COVID fi
Re:Common side effect (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, everybody not vaccinated will get COVID. Also, with the Delta variant, about 85% immunity is needed for herd-immunity. There is only one sane decision in the face of these numbers: Get vaccinated. Those that chose not to endanger others, themselves and lengthen the crisis.
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Well, everybody not vaccinated will get COVID. Also, with the Delta variant, about 85% immunity is needed for herd-immunity. There is only one sane decision in the face of these numbers: Get vaccinated. Those that chose not to endanger others, themselves and lengthen the crisis.
Do you have an authoritative reference for the "about 85% immunity" needed for the Delta variant? Just so that we can establish the facts. The only information I have found is speculation that it may be "up to 85%" which is not quite what you state. Facts matter.
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Nobody has hard facts. We will only have these afterwards. Current expert estimates are around 85% with Delta. Here are some references:
https://www.aerzteblatt.de/nac... [aerzteblatt.de]
And no, I do not have an English source.
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It's a complex measure regardless. The virus does not care about national stats. E.g. if you vaccinated everyone in 85% of your states / provinces but 0% in the others, it'll happily spread through those you didn't vaccinate. The same can happen with non-geographic divisions based on association. People tend to associate most with others of similar ages, for example. So if young people tend not to get vaccinated, you can have the disease readily spread through the non-immune young population even if th
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Pretty much so, yes. That is why some experts think that with the Delta variant, herd immunity will be practically impossible and this thing will be with us for a very long time.
Re: Common side effect (Score:3)
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Immunity from infection is a lot worse than from a full vaccination. In fact, if you know you had it you still get the second vaccine shot here, as having had COVID is about as good as the first shot only. Say, 60% effective or so. Incidentally, that is why there are people that had COVID twice and why naturally, there will not be any herd immunity.
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Immunity from infection is a lot worse than from a full vaccination.
No it isn't. Real world symptomatic reinfection is exceedingly rare.
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Immunity from infection is a lot worse than from a full vaccination.
No it isn't. Real world symptomatic reinfection is exceedingly rare.
Yes, it is. Real-world symptomatic reinfection is nowhere near as rare as breakthrough infections after vaccination. COVID infection reduces reinfection rate by about 84%, whereas the vaccine reduces it by about 95%. So you're about 3x as likely to be reinfected with COVID as you are to have a breakthrough case after vaccination.
Re:Common side effect (Score:5, Informative)
Well, everybody not vaccinated will get COVID. Also, with the Delta variant, about 85% immunity is needed for herd-immunity.
Do you have an authoritative reference for the "about 85% immunity" needed for the Delta variant?
The herd immunity level is determined by the reproduction factor, R0 (the number of people that each infected individual would infect, if none of them were immune.) Specifically, if the fraction of immune people in a population is X, then the virus reaches steady state (each case leads to exactly one new case) when R0(1-X) = 1.
You need X higher than that to give herd immunity. If R0(1-x) = 0.5, for example, the virus will exponentially decay with a time constant of one generation.
R0 for the delta variant is estimated as around 5. This source, for example, says 5:
https://www.thestar.com/news/g... [thestar.com]
(some other sources suggest as high as 8)
At R0=5, 80% immune would lead to the virus in steady state. 90% immune would give you that exponential decay with time constant 1 generation. "Herd immunity" comes somewhere between those, so 85% is a reasonable number.
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Thanks!
Re:Common side effect (Score:4, Insightful)
Liars, damned liars and then people like you. You lie, you omit, you misdirect. You have no place in civilization.
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Stop spreading this bullshit. They are only endangering themselves. There is no evidence the vaccines prevent infection or transmission at a high enough rate to stop the virus propagating in the population - they are only proven to prevent serious illness.
Actually, there are mountains of evidence. The fact that you haven't read it and/or don't understand it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You're wrong for several reasons:
1. The severity of an infection is directly proportional to how much of the virus you shed. So there is absolutely NO WAY that a vaccine can POSSIBLY reduce the severity of illness without also reducing the extent to which the sick people spread it to other people. That would be a medical miracle if it happened.
2. The severity of i
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Yes yes, but you are lying and your "truth" is a laughable, easily rebutted lie.
First, for some people the vaccine doesn't work as well, meaning all those vermin vectors out there "not getting muh vaccine" are keeping the virus going and giving it to those people.
Second, the virus mutates in these assholes and could get worse, possibly even evading the vaccine. The longer it's spreading from dipshit to dipshit out there the more likely this is to happen.
These crackpots can suck my balls and lick my taint, n
Re: Common side effect (Score:2)
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Well maybe people should drink some coffee [hopkinsmedicine.org] to offset the effect?
German Study: 60% had Mycarditus after Covid19 (Score:5, Interesting)
https://www.the-scientist.com/... [the-scientist.com] .. .. ... ... ...
ESPN reports that COVID-19 has been linked with myocarditis at a higher frequency than other viruses have been, based on limited studies and anecdotal evidence. A recent study of 100 patients in Germany found that 60 percent suffered from myocarditis following their COVID-19 diagnoses, independent of pre-existing conditions.
Also...
When they imaged the hearts of 26 Ohio State University players using cardiac magnetic resonance (CMR), they found evidence of myocarditis in 15 percent, while a further 30 percent had cellular damage or swelling that could not be linked definitively to the condition.
To assess the presence of myocarditis in college athletes that have recovered from COVID-19, the authors selected 26 students at Ohio State University, including men and women. None of the participants, who played football, soccer, lacrosse, basketball, or track, had previous heart conditions before being tested.
All 26 participants had contracted the coronavirus between June and August and had their cases verified using a PCR test. The timing between their diagnosis and their subsequent testing for myocarditis varied between 11 days to almost two months. Twelve of the athletes reported mild symptoms while sick, while the rest were asymptomatic.
---
Also, Dr. John Campbell covered data showing even people with mild Covid19 in UK had raise Troponin levels for up to 10 weeks afterwards. Troponin indicates heart cells are dying-- and they do not regrow unlike other body cells.
Almost as rare as COVID-19 deaths in this group (Score:3, Informative)
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Re:Almost as rare as COVID-19 deaths in this group (Score:5, Informative)
A good statistic to know.
I do point out, however, that you are comparing deaths to a side effect featuring "symptoms like fatigue, chest pain and disturbances in heart rhythm that quickly cleared up".
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That's a fair point. Myocarditis in these young people typically clears up quickly but keep in mind several hundred had to be hospitalized (although that stat includes people up to age 30, so not clear how many are in the 0-17 age group). Plus Myocarditis is only one side effect we're currently aware of since it's so immediate afte
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Thanks for the link. That article refers to college-aged individuals, which would be outside the 0-17 age group.
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Yeah, because college students are so different from high school students that there would be a meaningful difference in the rate of myocarditis from the virus, but not a meaningful difference in the rate of myocarditis caused by the vaccine.
Don't make me laugh.
There have been double digit cases out of 2.5 million teenagers who have been vaccinated. We're talking on the order of one in 100K. If college students are seeing O(1%) chance of MC from the actual COVID virus, then the risk for high school studen
Burying the lede (Score:2, Informative)
The main story here is not the unusually high myocarditis linked to the Pfizer vaccine, but the fact that this was publicly known for at least 1.5 months before the CDC was willing to acknowledge it (see https://www.pecc.org.il/docs/r... [pecc.org.il]).
Indeed, until June 22 at 6:23pm, the WHO was emphatically recommending that "Children should not be vaccinated for the moment" (see https://agile.bu.edu/poc/often [bu.edu]), in part as a result of this finding.
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It's still two or three orders of magnitude lower than your risk of getting myocarditis after actually getting sick with COVID at that age. They're being cautious, which is generally a good thing. That's not saying that the public should be concerned.
If anything, I'm a little concerned that they might be being too cautious. Double-digit myocarditis cases, most of which went away in a week without treatment is really not alarming. It is just *barely* outside the margin of error for kids in that age grou
Why trust federal researchers ? (Score:2, Insightful)
From the very beginning, they have done nothing but lie to us.
No they don't (Score:2)
Really? Because I've had allergic reactions to 2 out of the last 8 vaccines I've had and one put me in the hospital (MMR vaccine) and anyone who had verifiably had COVID does not need the shot and is at way higher risk of a reaction from it since they already have T-cells against it. So back in reality they're lying or the article is lying.
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Obviously people who are allergic to it should probably not get vaccinated. This is actually the point of the recommendation, you want all people who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated so that you protect those who can not be vaccinated.
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2 per Million (Score:2)
You're going to vaccinate a million kids to save two lives and there are serious side effects, some resulting in death?
You could have bought them all bike helmets and saved far more lives. Or taught them all CPR. Or Epistemology.
Covid requires symptomatic or presymptomatic hosts to spread with an R(0) > 1 and kids rarely get symptomatic.
Oh, is there a billion dollars at stake for Pharma? By all means, then.
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Well, the side effects of the virus are worse and more common than the side effect of the vaccine. And if we don't reach herd immunity (which is basically at virtually everyone gets vaccinated), then you will get infected eventually. So your personal health outcomes ARE better with the vaccine than without the vaccine.