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Space Science

String Theorist Michio Kaku: 'Reaching Out To Aliens is a Terrible Idea' (theguardian.com) 260

An excerpt from a wide-ranging interview of String theorist Michio Kaku in which he talks about Newton finding inspiration amid the great plague, how the multiverse can unite religions, and why a 'theory of everything' is within our grasp: The Guardian: You believe that within a century we will make contact with an alien civilisation. Are you worried about what they may entail?
Kaku: Soon we'll have the Webb telescope up in orbit and we'll have thousands of planets to look at, and that's why I think the chances are quite high that we may make contact with an alien civilisation. There are some colleagues of mine that believe we should reach out to them. I think that's a terrible idea. We all know what happened to Montezuma when he met Cortes in Mexico so many hundreds of years ago. Now, personally, I think that aliens out there would be friendly but we can't gamble on it. So I think we will make contact but we should do it very carefully.

The Guardian How close do you believe science is to accomplishing a theory of everything?
Kaku: Well, I think we actually have the theory but not in its final form. It hasn't been tested yet and Nobel prize winners have taken opposite points of view concerning something called string theory. I'm the co-founder of string field theory, which is one of the main branches of string theory, so I have some "skin in the game." I try to be fair and balanced. I think we're on the verge of a new era. New experiments are being done to detect deviations from the Standard Model. Plus, we have the mystery of dark matter. Any of these unexplored areas could give a clue as to the theory of everything.

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String Theorist Michio Kaku: 'Reaching Out To Aliens is a Terrible Idea'

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  • by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:09PM (#61239832)

    1. Faster than light travel
    2. Anti-gravity field generation

    Physicists, it's all up to you. Nature seems to have banned it, but at least it didn't ban making genetically modified dragon babies.

    • We could genetically engineer long haul space babies to survive the 100+ year trip there and back.
    • 1. Warping of space to "move" matter is a real thing. It's just the energy requirements are stupendous.

      2. Not ever going to happen.

      • by smchris ( 464899 )

        Exactly. I like to compared this fascination with FTL during our primitive space endeavors with the alchemist's aspirations to turn lead into gold when they were mucking their way to chemistry. We _have_ succeeded in turning other elements into gold for chuckles. The energy to transmute a pleasant chunk of matter into gold would be insanely impractical with a lot a exclamation points that approach the infinite of impossible. The future will see our aspiration for FTL as the same sort of fantasy. These are _

        • I actually think the warping of space issue to be one of engineering. The Alcubierre design sets up something akin to a huge pilot wave that the ship sits in. But I get the feeling that we may be able to do something on much smaller scales to provide apparent movement. Kind of akin to the ion drives we have today. The thrust is minuscule, but the energy requirements are also really low and over time, great speeds can be achieved.

          • I actually think the warping of space issue to be one of engineering. The Alcubierre design sets up something akin to a huge pilot wave that the ship sits in.

            The Alcubierre drive requires negative mass to operate (*). This violates the positive energy theorem. Turns out that there are effects in nature that produce (in effect) negative mass, but on the whole the amount of positive mass overbalances the amount of negative mass, so the net result is positive.

            So, it's more than engineering: we need to find, or invent, a new form of matter.

            *(strictly, it's a negative trace of the stress-energy tensor, but "negative mass" is easier to say.)

            • So, it's more than engineering: we need to find, or invent, a new form of matter.

              I agree. But I was speaking more about the geometry of the "warping of space" his paper proposes. I wonder if similar effects (should we solve the negative mass issue) could be done more localized at lower energies. Granted, I'm aware that this is all still wildly speculative.

            • Worse, if we find negative mass, we run into the fact that the second law of thermodynamics isn't law.
              If you have positive and negative mass, you can accelerate indefinitely with no additional energy input. If you can accelerate indefinitely, then you have perpetual motion.
              This means we can fly to the aliens, and then destroy their entire solar system while we're at it.

              There is precisely no reason to think that matter with negative rest mass exists.
        • by tragedy ( 27079 )

          Sure, but on the other hand, I just wrapped up some of my leftovers from the weekend in foil made from a metal that was once more precious than gold. At the time, few imagined it would be cheap enough to sell as a disposable food wrap, but here we are. Understand, I'm not saying that it's likely that we'll have FTL travel, but it is hard to predict the ultimate trajectory of what is possible under the laws of physics, chemistry, mechanics, etc., and that's even when you actually know all the basic rules up

        • by Falos ( 2905315 )

          This leads to the idea that, like setting aside gold, we set aside matter and explore more feasible exploits with information.

          Combine that with the idea that you could remotely operate, experience, or outright inhabit a distant body, organic or otherwise.

          We've already seen sci-fi play with "turns out time travel is possible if we're just sending our minds".

          "Download your brain" is hardly a novel idea though, probably sees popularity increase with one's age group too. Thing is the idea is fine in pulp, simpl

          • That all assumes, that the brain is the "house" or "seat" of the mind (and your memories).
            If instead the mind is part of your spirit, an immaterial energy body similar to, but overlaid with your physical body (and resonant with your DNA), and the brain is "just" an interface between your physical and energy body, swapping brain cells becomes meaningless.

      • 1. Warping of space to "move" matter is a real thing. It's just the energy requirements are stupendous.

        No, it's not. It's a valid solution to the Einstein field equations, but with an entirely un-physical implementation.
        It requires a lot of negative energy. Enough, that for reasonable density of your negative energy density, you need negative mass.
        Negative mass, while not outright impossible, is very unlikely to be possible, because the existence of negative mass implies a violation of the second law of thermodynamics.
        If the second law is not law, then fuck warp to begin with. Let's all just get to work o

    • I think the first thing would be getting to mars, then worry about FTL

      • If we have FTL, Mars will be a breeze. The commute to the launch pad would take longer than the trip to Mars.
    • Was that an Ann McCaffery reference?

    • by quenda ( 644621 )

      2. Anti-gravity field generation

      That is nonsensical. The "field" and "force" are not physical entities, but exist only in our mathematical models. Einstein showed that an object in freefall is just following a geodesic in spacetime. If you wish to change that, you need vast amounts of mass.

      But gravity and acceleration are the *same* thing, and it is theoretically possible to locally warp spacetime.
      e.g. using a small black hole at the front of a space-ship to cancel the high acceleration for the crew. Not very practical, but physics sort-

  • But... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BytePusher ( 209961 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:13PM (#61239846) Homepage
    Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth? There are plenty of water and rocks full of the most valuable resources floating around in space outside of an expensive gravity well. If they're advanced enough to have an armada of space ships and have enough resources, time and energy to fly light years to come see us, they really won't benefit much from taking our planet or enslaving a bunch of primitive slightly intelligent beings.
    • Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

      Why would we know anything about what advanced civilizations want?

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        "What does God need with a starship?"

        • If god is real, he came here with some technology (biological or otherwise). God, if he exists, is extra terrestrial intelligence by definition.
      • Re:But... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by grep -v '.*' * ( 780312 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:33PM (#61239948)

        Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

        Why would we know anything about what advanced civilizations want?

        They want our water, of which only our H and O2 is magically uniquely unique throughout the entire universe (metaverse), and our women, because all they have are alien women. Haven't you been keeping up with the memos?

        On the other hand, the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale, maybe that. [blogtyrant.com] Or GPUs to mine bitcoin; I hear there's a shortage of them out there in intergalactic space, too.

        Then again, if you remember that Twilight Zone episode... [wikipedia.org]

      • What finite resource exists only on earth that doesn't exist anywhere else? Short of aliens wanting to convert earth into an intergalactic zoo, I can't see why they would have any hostile intentions if we accidentally let them know we exist.
        • I can't see why they would have any hostile intentions if we accidentally let them know we exist.

          But you're talking about (potential) aliens that we don't know anything about. There is no way of knowing what their intentions might be.

        • Humans, I'd imagine. Maybe they are harvesting synaptic transmissions for their hive mind. Who the fuck knows.

        • The hostility may not be intentional. just natural. When we go to clear forests to setup a new subdivision or shopping complex we don't ask permission from the creatures living there. We just assume they are lesser than us so we simply deploy the bulldozers and clear the land. If we went to another planet and the beings there were "less intelligent" than us what do you think would happen? Say that planet has some form of apes living there. Would we ask them permission? Nature is universal. just look
        • by Falos ( 2905315 )

          What finite resource exists only on earth that doesn't exist anywhere else? Short of aliens wanting to convert earth into an intergalactic zoo, I can't see why they would have any hostile intentions if we accidentally let them know we exist.

          I think it wasn't long ago we were compared to ants, at risk of being trodden or just ignored as irrelevant.

          Thing is, ANY species that is even vaguely intelligible and able to communicate gets lots of our attention. Any vaugely self-aware species. We delight in crows and dolphins and primates. If passing trivia is to be trusted, the only known instance of an animal asking an arbitrary question about itself was Alex the gray parrot wondering what color he was. If it turns out a shitty smelly ugly worthless a

        • by guygo ( 894298 )

          "What finite resource exists only on earth that doesn't exist anywhere else?"
          White Castle?

          • by invid ( 163714 )

            "What finite resource exists only on earth that doesn't exist anywhere else?" White Castle?

            The only thing of value on Earth to an interstellar species is that it is a sample of the relatively rare examples of planets that spawned a technological species. If you are coming up with theories about the development of technological species, you are going to need the largest number of samples possible. Raw data about our development is like gold to interstellar species.

    • Re:But... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by OrangeTide ( 124937 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:19PM (#61239880) Homepage Journal

      Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

      Maybe their religion says their god created the universe and them and nothing else. Politicians and elders might want to eliminate any inconvenient evidence to the contrary. And it wouldn't take an armada to destroy our civilization, a few big rocks moving quickly would send us back to the pre-Cambrian era. Fanatics don't have to have a concrete pay out to justify a costly investment. The pay out can be purely psychological or political.

      The scariest thing about life outside of our Solar System is they might be too much like us.

      • Maybe their religion says their god created the universe and them and nothing else. Politicians and elders might want to eliminate any inconvenient evidence to the contrary.

        Or maybe they are evangelists and would feel the need to convert all of us to worshiping something or other.

      • by dhaen ( 892570 )

        Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

        Maybe their religion says their god created the universe and them and nothing else.

        I thought we were talking about advanced civilisations, not those held back by superstition.

    • They want to us know that our space ship extended warranties are about to expire.
    • Because they are bored. "I like to play with things a while, before annihilation."
      • Because they are bored. "I like to play with things a while, before annihilation."

        I really wish I could mod you up the th Flash Gordon reference. Think I might rewatch that tonight.

    • Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

      To eliminate competition.

    • by night ( 28448 )

      Sure they are more advanced today, but look how far humanity has come since 1800. Electricity, fission, limited fusion, quantum mechanics, internet, space travel, superconductors, visiting mars, mercury, venus, moon, neptune, etc.

      They might write us off as harmless, and then in 2000 years we get good at something they aren't, and while they weren't looking we took over this part of the galaxy. Might want to read the 3 body problem, it's a good book and discusses this in depth.

      • Sure they are more advanced today, but look how far humanity has come since 1800. Electricity, fission, limited fusion, quantum mechanics, internet, space travel, superconductors, visiting mars, mercury, venus, moon, neptune, etc.

        They might write us off as harmless, and then in 2000 years we get good at something they aren't, and while they weren't looking we took over this part of the galaxy. Might want to read the 3 body problem, it's a good book and discusses this in depth.

        That all sounds like very generic science fiction that's been done a thousand times.

    • Earth life is obviously unique in the visible universe. Even if life is common, and even if it’s all like earth with even the same dna (laughably improbable assumptions) just look at early life forms. They were extremely varied and quite “alien” to the surviving lines that went on to populate it. 4.1 billion years of evolutionary drift results in natural technologies that would be worth acquiring all of the data for. Simply put, evolution has created a natural database found nowhere el
    • Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

      Do you have any idea how delicious fattened humans are? Let me tell you, Earth is the best buffet of the galaxy! Don't worry though, I've already reported that you guys don't taste good and I'm keeping this place for myself.

    • by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

      We are enslaving a bunch of primitive, slightly intelligent beings. We breed them, eat them, keep them as pets, in zoos, perform experiments on them, etc...
      Aliens may or may not be different.

      They may also bring deadly stuff with them like invasive species and pathogens. Just like Europeans brought their plagues with them when they visited America. I would consider it unlikely since it is hard to compete with billions of year of evolution on their home turf but it is a serious consideration.

      Anyways, it a ris

    • by tragedy ( 27079 )

      Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

      Well, movies and even books come up with all kinds of ridiculous things, like water (as if the outer solar system isn't pretty much made of water), etc. If aliens did have an interest in invading, it would more likely be for more traditional reasons like land, control, and maybe slaves. There's no getting around the fact that organisms that evolve on a planet are likely going to value land. Even if they can build their own space habitats, land on a planet will be meaningful. If they can live here, creating

      • by tragedy ( 27079 )

        Yikes, I can't believe I forgot religion. Obviously we might need to shown the one true path to save our immortal souls.

    • by hey! ( 33014 )

      Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

      Why would anyone want to troll on an Internet forum? All of the problems humanity creates for itself isn't for want of intelligence; intelligence and rationality are two very different things.

    • by thomst ( 1640045 )

      BytePusher inquired:

      Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth? If they're advanced enough to have an armada of space ships and have enough resources, time and energy to fly light years to come see us, they really won't benefit much from taking our planet or enslaving a bunch of primitive slightly intelligent beings.

      Even without having read the full interview, I'm pretty sure what motivates Dr. Kaku to advocate caution in contacting any alien civilization we might discover is more the possibility that it could turn out to be an aggressive, hegemonic, society of highly-advanced xenophobes that considers all other forms of intelligent life as threats to be exterminated than aspiring conquerors, or bearers of the equivalent of smallpox-infested blankets and firewater.

      Or a spacefaring Skynet-type AI civ

    • We are competition for all the other planets and valuable resources. Maybe there are enough resources now, but in the long run everything valuable will be used up.
      They are gonna come to eliminate the competition. The earlier the easier for them.
    • by Sloppy ( 14984 )

      Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth?

      Same reason we want Arcturian poontang.

    • Why would an advanced civilization want anything to do with earth? There are plenty of water and rocks full of the most valuable resources floating around in space outside of an expensive gravity well. If they're advanced enough to have an armada of space ships and have enough resources, time and energy to fly light years to come see us, they really won't benefit much from taking our planet or enslaving a bunch of primitive slightly intelligent beings.

      Possibly, but a planet is probably a lot cheaper and more robust a building site than a space station.

      And we still don't know a lot about what alien life looks like. It might be that earth-like planets with a functioning biosphere are the only practical place to colonize. They may not be hostile to us, but they may not be that concerned about the welfare the fauna either.

      I'm not saying they're likely to bother us, but it's not a theory I'm anxious to check.

    • by JoeRobe ( 207552 )

      I had this exact discussion with a musician friend of mine a few years back. I took your stance - what do we have to offer that they don't already have?

      His answer: Our art.

      An alien race may not have any need to contact Earth to gain technology or resources. But no matter how advanced you are, the act of creative expression by a civilization is unique to that civilization. It's imprinted with millennia of cultural movements and history that simply cannot be simulated or predicted. To an outsider our art

  • Well, if evolution plays by the same rules across the galaxy, who'd be at a survival advantage, the one traveling between stars, or the one struggling to make a one light-second jump?

    • The one who is all on a single planet and can’t leave and live vs. obviously having the technology to accelerate large masses accurately in space will end badly for earth. Just nudge a few rocks and extinct 99% of all life.
  • by jfdavis668 ( 1414919 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:18PM (#61239876)
    Not the strongest platform to speak from. String theory might be mathematically elegant, but it's not predicting the physics that is currently being discovered.
  • by Ogive17 ( 691899 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:29PM (#61239926)
    Any alien civilization that has the technology to do harmful things to humans on Earth probably already knows we are here.. we've kinda been broadcasting our presence for the past century.

    And hopefully any alien civilization that has such a high level of technology has no need of anything we have and would simply communicate for the sake of doing so.
    • Any alien civilization that has the technology to do harmful things to humans on Earth probably already knows we are here

      Why?

      We've been radiating (artificial stuff) to space for about a century. Which means no-one much more than a light-century away knows we're here. So, maybe 0.00001% of the aliens in our galaxy know we're here. And no-one outside our galaxy is going to know we're here for a couple million years, minimum.

      Caveat: this assumes no FTL, of course.

      • by tragedy ( 27079 )

        Our artificial lighting could potentially provide more useful evidence than our radio transmissions.

      • Another caveat:
        Assuming some species has a radio telescope aimed at our portion of the sky looking for our particular low energy emissions, and has developed the technology (or the desire) to pick up a signal that is so faint that at some point it's likely to be mistaken as an anisotropy in the CMB.
  • ...in Wyoming, make sculptures from mashed potatoes, and hum sequences of low notes. What could possibly go wrong?
    • "Hey Aliens! Come visit Earth. We currently have a pandemic that is killing MILLIONS of our own people, but you'll probably be fine!"
  • So much stupidity (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @03:41PM (#61239978) Homepage

    1) Stop asking experts about things outside their sphere of knowledge. The best String Theorist in the world has NO CREDENTIALS about xenopolitics or xenopsychology. Yes, we may have no xeno experts, but at least ask a Political Scientist.

    2) Us attempting to contact them is like a bronze age civilization attempting to contact us. We are a 1 planet species, we have not even colonized our own solar system and have not put so much as a drone in another solar system. Our attempts are futile and will be at least until we have sent a drone to Promixa Centauri and have it sent data back. If they are looking they will find us even if we try to hide. If they are not, they will never find us.

    3) Should they discover us, they probably would ignore us. We just aren't that interesting to anyone that advanced. Developed countries are not desperately trying to contact the few human tribes that are not internet connected. The only reason I can think they might contact us is for religious purposes. If the aliens come and demand we pray to Gorg, I for one will immediately convert.

    • by enigma32 ( 128601 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @04:08PM (#61240100)

      Developed countries are not desperately trying to contact the few human tribes that are not internet connected.

      Up until pretty recently (maybe still?) developed countries were trying to "help" those few tribes. I don't think it's necessarily a safe assumption that another species wouldn't try to "help" us in the same way.

    • Michio Kaku is a physicist who writes books for the non-experts, does TV interviews about science topics and fronted a few TV shows.
      I don't think he has written any (science) fiction though.
      So hes not just an expert in string theory.
      Carl Sagan, Arthur C. and Stephen Hawking (who also did that sort of thing) are no longer alive.

    • I, for two, welcome our new Gorg overlords.
    • by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @05:00PM (#61240330)

      > 1) Stop asking experts about things outside their sphere of knowledge.

      Yes, 100% agreed!

      > 2. If they are looking they will find us even if we try to hide. If they are not, they will never find us.

      Yes, agreed.

      > 3. We just aren't that interesting to anyone that advanced.

      QUESTION: Why do people study topics / things?

      * Plants are interesting to botanists,
      * Languages are interesting to linguistics,
      * Algorithms are interesting to computer scientists,
      * etc.

      Now think bigger:

      * Human writing and language are interesting to aliens studying xeno-linguistics.

      The more you explore what makes others unique the more you discover about yourself.

      There are MANY reasons why this planet and the diverse life on it might be interesting to aliens. Here are just a few:

      Interested in our humor, what and why we find things funny,
      Interested in our development of Religion,
      Interested in our development of Politics,
      Interested in our development of Mathematics,
      Interested in our development of Philosophy,
      Interested in our development of Science,
      Curios how their "children" are doing,
      Earth is a colony. They have a right to be here. We're "trespassing" on THEIR planet.
      *etc.*

      Just because _you_ aren't interesting doesn't make the entire human race non-interesting. As a species we do a lot of short-sighted behaviors that a lot of many aliens would find comical / retarded / interesting / etc.

      > The only reason I can think they might contact us is for religious purposes.

      Religion is Spiritual kindergarten. They don't need another culture's archaic, limited belief system to know The Source.

    • 1) Stop asking experts about things outside their sphere of knowledge. The best String Theorist in the world has NO CREDENTIALS about xenopolitics or xenopsychology. Yes, we may have no xeno experts, but at least ask a Political Scientist.

      Meh, I don't see why a political scientist would have a clue either.

      At this point there are no experts on xenopolitics or xenopsychology, one clever person's opinion is about as valid as another's. The opinions aren't worth a lot either, but they're fun discussion fodder.

      2) Us attempting to contact them is like a bronze age civilization attempting to contact us. We are a 1 planet species, we have not even colonized our own solar system and have not put so much as a drone in another solar system. Our attempts are futile and will be at least until we have sent a drone to Promixa Centauri and have it sent data back. If they are looking they will find us even if we try to hide. If they are not, they will never find us.

      That's assuming Aliens are at least a bit magic. Space is big, the laws of physics might be such that the only reliable way to discover primitive civilizations is for them to start trying to get deliberately noticed.

      This is the topic where

  • It wasn't all puppies and flowers for Cortes, either. Sure he was the overall winner, but he suffered some losses as well.

  • a close analog to aliens on earth anyway, so naturally they should be the first people to ask about aliens.

  • Does he know that the James Webb telescope has no transmission feature that could contact aliens?

    • Does he know that the James Webb telescope has no transmission feature that could contact aliens?

      Of course he does. But if we spotted aliens with a telescope, any telescope, somebody would start discussing contacting those aliens, for sure.

  • Some say that String Theory is a terrible idea. I tend to agree with that sentiment, since it doesn't seem to solve anything.
    • Some say that String Theory is a terrible idea. I tend to agree with that sentiment, since it doesn't seem to solve anything.

      Like a lot of science, it's a great solution to otherwise having no income for quite a few scientists.

    • It's not even a theory, or a hypothesis. It is a spitball, that didn't hit anything.

    • Some say that String Theory is a terrible idea. I tend to agree with that sentiment, since it doesn't seem to solve anything.

      I tend to agree with Douglas adams:

      In the beginning the Universe was created.
      This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  • by blahplusplus ( 757119 ) on Monday April 05, 2021 @04:15PM (#61240130)

    ... over vast distances has yet to be proved to be economical. If aliens exist there's no guarantee that the maximum speed any life made of atoms could go very fast and need to be ferried (food and energy source and all) across the galaxy. The idea of space flight makes very little economic sense across large distances especially if resources are your goal, which is 99% of what wars are usually fought over.

    When people start talking about aliens, it's most likely 99% certain there's life everywhere but it it is small microbial life, since the universe is a rather hostile place. Intelligent life will most likely be rare because of it's capacity to self destruct either through natural stupidity or natural disaster.

    Let's remember there are countless number dead life and conquered civilizations on our own planet.

  • When Thanos, a horde of Borg Cubes AND the Vorgons all show up in orbit at the same time!

  • The speed of light is self limiting, forever isolating the universe from being traversed. Unless there is some kind of faster than light fiction drive (highly unlikely to say the least), we are safe for at least a few thousand years perhaps even tens of thousands of years. Hell, if they just heard our first signals “now” and traveled infinitely fast it would take almost a century for them to get here. Given a few hundred thousand years each way, even a few trips across the Milky Way and bac
  • Look at some insights [columbia.edu] to get a perspective on the interview.
  • Didn't Hawking say this... exact same thing?

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