EU Plans Rollout of Travel Certificate Before Summer (bbc.com) 130
A digital certificate to kick-start foreign travel should be given to citizens across the EU "without discrimination," officials say. From a report: The aim is to enable anyone vaccinated against Covid-19, or who has tested negative or recently recovered from the virus to travel within the EU. The 27 member states will decide how to use the new digital certificate. Vaccine passports have faced opposition from some EU member states over concerns they might be discriminatory. Some argue that they would enable a minority to enjoy foreign travel without restrictions while others, such as young people who are not seen as a priority for inoculation, continue to face measures such as quarantine. European Commission officials have made clear they want to avoid discrimination.
Another issue raised has been that data on the efficacy of vaccines in preventing a person from carrying or passing on the virus is incomplete. Ahead of the EU's announcement, the World Health Organization (WHO) said that it was working to "create an international trusted framework" for safe travel, but that vaccinations should not be a condition. Separately, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has threatened to withhold exporting vaccines to the UK and any other countries outside the EU that do not supply doses in a reciprocal way. "We're still waiting for doses to come from the UK," she said. "So, this is an invitation to show us that there are also doses from the UK coming to the European Union."
Another issue raised has been that data on the efficacy of vaccines in preventing a person from carrying or passing on the virus is incomplete. Ahead of the EU's announcement, the World Health Organization (WHO) said that it was working to "create an international trusted framework" for safe travel, but that vaccinations should not be a condition. Separately, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has threatened to withhold exporting vaccines to the UK and any other countries outside the EU that do not supply doses in a reciprocal way. "We're still waiting for doses to come from the UK," she said. "So, this is an invitation to show us that there are also doses from the UK coming to the European Union."
Current systems work just fine (Score:4, Insightful)
We already have perfectly good international vaccination records when you travel to countries that are concerned about diseases like malaria or yellow fever. When I fly internationally my pilots license has an endorsement (an official stamp and a signature) that tells anybody who cares that I'm medically fit to fly an airplane. What more do we need? Why the obsession with it being digital?
Showing vaccination records for anything domestic is at the intersection of Go Pound Sand and I'll See You In Court.
...laura
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What more do we need? Why the obsession with it being digital?
Because we don't have a good way to track everyone who gets on an airplane to make sure they are vaccinated. For some countries, airlines do visa checks, but there isn't a process like that for most countries. Since there isn't a process like that, a process needs to be built, and making it digital is the hope (maybe unfounded) that it will be cheaper.
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Because we don't have a good way to track everyone who gets on an airplane to make sure they are vaccinated.
So what? The evidence of transmission risk while on an airplane is virtually nonexistent.
For some countries, airlines do visa checks, but there isn't a process like that for most countries. Since there isn't a process like that, a process needs to be built, and making it digital is the hope (maybe unfounded) that it will be cheaper.
Most countries have just as much covid risk among their local populations as every other country. Those that don't .. those who have taken measures to prevent community spread are not going to give a rats ass about foreign declarations and vaccination status. You WILL be quarantined like everyone else.
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So what? The evidence of transmission risk while on an airplane is virtually nonexistent.
I'm not so sure about that. Here in Canada we do exposure notifications for flights, both domestic and international. Also, the B117 and B1351 strains from the UK and South Africa presumably came here on airplanes. In fact most of our case of variants of concern here are still travel related, though I'm sure community spread will overtake that soon enough.
https://www.canada.ca/en/publi... [canada.ca]
We also have quarantine rules for travel even between provinces. We are considering vaccination records to all
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I'm not so sure about that. Here in Canada we do exposure notifications for flights, both domestic and international. Also, the B117 and B1351 strains from the UK and South Africa presumably came here on airplanes. In fact most of our case of variants of concern here are still travel related, though I'm sure community spread will overtake that soon enough.
My assertion is there is virtually non-existent evidence people are getting sick from other people while aboard an aircraft.
This is a separate matter from spreading it in the environment once you get off the aircraft. In this regard my assertion is there is no meaningful difference between risks from exposure to foreign people from other countries in among the local population and risks from the local population. There are exceptional cases where this is not true such as travel to a country that is succes
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My assertion is there is virtually non-existent evidence people are getting sick from other people while aboard an aircraft.
Competent contact tracing apparently suggests there is. I'm not sure how often the air is exchanged on a sealed and pressurized aircraft, so I'm not sure if it is better or worse than a bus. Buses were a plentiful source of contagion even before COVID.
my assertion is there is no meaningful difference between risks from exposure to foreign people from other countries in among the local population and risks from the local population.
That may be true, but travel makes competent contact tracing much harder. That problem can be overcome. I believe we are discussing that.
There is ZERO chance of the propagation of strains being prevented by travel certificates. This system is not foolproof and foolproof is what is needed to prevent strain genies from getting out of geographic bottles.
I agree. But people magically appearing out of nowhere from other countries again make contact tracing that much ha
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The evidence of transmission risk while on an airplane is virtually nonexistent.
And how do you come to that silly idea?
Most countries have just as much covid risk among their local populations as every other country.
Define most countries then.
There are plenty of countries with low infection rates and very strict traveling rules, up to: no incoming travelers at all.
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And how do you come to that silly idea?
https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/w... [harvard.edu]
Define most countries then.
Nearly everywhere in Europe and the Americas.
There are plenty of countries with low infection rates and very strict traveling rules, up to: no incoming travelers at all.
Yep and they are not going to give a flying fuck about foreign travel certificates either. You *WILL* still be quarantined.
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Yep and they are not going to give a flying fuck about foreign travel certificates either. You *WILL* still be quarantined.
They will.
And you did not explain how you came to your silly idea. A link to a WHO report is not an argument :P
Want to explain your thought process or not? Up to you.
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"The evidence of transmission risk while on an airplane is virtually nonexistent."
But we do have plenty of evidence of transmission after someone arrives on a plane.
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But we do have plenty of evidence of transmission after someone arrives on a plane.
I posted two whole paragraphs. You've quoted the first and ignored the second which addresses the very issue you raise.
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Your second paragraph is about domestic travel which address nothing about the international traveler who crosses the border while contagious. Your first paragraphs is about the thin evidence for transmission on the plane, which would be before crossing the border.
Re: Current systems work just fine FOR SOME PEOPLE (Score:2)
Many countries which do enforce travel vaccination requirements establish this manual verification process upon entry (during entry customs checks). But, most countries do not enforce these r
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The vast majority of world travelers DO NOT possess some extraordinary travel vaccine booklet,
Anyone who has ever flown to Africa for example, or a lot of eastern countries.
Not from my experience, and I've traveled to literally half the countries around the globe.
Holy shit did you really just claim a government built digital system is really going to be more scalable and robust than paper people can just carry with them anywhere, and that someone is customs simply reads through in about a second? The existing solution already works for tens of millions of people a year.
As I've emphasized, *any* digital solution, which includes extending existing solutions, such as the No-Fly Lists adopted by most countries.
I say, just do the forehead tattoo thing and get it over with already.
No thank you. It's apparent that you've already done it, and I honestly have no interest in being mistaken for you.
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I guess if you visit more places than just Germany and Las Vegas you might have a different experience.
Huh?!
Only on Slashdot could you find someone calling fro such an obviously stupid extension to an already broken system in place of writing something down on a piece of paper like people have been doing for decades.
Wut?! You're calling an extension of an existing system "stupid" while suggesting the extension of... an existing system. :facepalm:
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Having a standard will mean that it's easy to prove you hand had a negative test or are vaccinated.
It also means that the issue of fairness can be addressed, e.g. a standard can be established that puts recent reliable tests on a par with vaccinations, and allows for confirmed medical exemptions.
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No we don't and no it doesn't. The current system is an archaic paper based nightmare of inconsistent vaccination papers that is incredibly difficult to follow even for trained staff. You'd know that if you've ever migrated from one country to another. Your pilots stamp is well accepted? Great! Many vaccination systems are not.
It's not a simple automatic go/nogo style system that would be needed to cope with a global general purpose travel document. It's not easily administered by airport checkin staff. And
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Weird phrasing, because we're talking about an very contagious aerosol virus that kills people.
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Just in case anyone else sees that wall of nonsense - he thinks immunity is binary and associated with overall initial health. Neither is the case. Both mRNA vaccines provide 100*% immunity to serious COVID-19 infections and death and 94.5% or 95% protection to any symptoms (only 80% protection to being an asymptomatic carrier, so stay masked!). Get the damn vaccine when you can.
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Ugh, I know.
I got an e-mail from a relative who is convinced that this vaccine will destroy the "body's natural immune response" or some nonsense like that. For peace in the family, I didn't tell them that they were morons peddling dangerous misinformation (I told my immediate family what I though of it), but damn... This pandemic is really bringing out a lot of misinformation that people seem bound and determined to spread around like the virus* we're fighting.
The good news is, if I'm being selfish, is t
Re: Current systems work just fine (Score:2)
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Many people do not have such a booklet.
Most vaccinations in Europe are voluntary. That is about to change in some countries in the near future.
Neither for my overseas travels nor obviously my travel inside Europe I ever needed booklet. I used to have one, as my vaccinations in my use were mandatory. E.g. polio or small pox. But it got lost. And yellow fever etc. I never needed to vaccinate against as I did not travel into countries that require it.
The idea, and that is clear in the summary is, that people w
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Yeap. How clean is your social media record? Said anything that the powers that be might find inconvenient lately? You'll be dragged off that plane like a toddler who wont wear his mask.
Because they've really got their act together (Score:2, Insightful)
The EU is like a headless chicken in the pandemic. They'd be better focusing on vaccinating their people and using existing vaccination record systems.
Re:Because they've really got their act together (Score:4, Informative)
This is exactly what the EU is for. Several countries have already announced that they will require proof of vaccination for travellers, and it makes sense to do an EU wide scheme. That scheme will probably be adopted or recognised by many non EU countries too.
Having a standard makes it cheaper to implement and gives travellers certainty that their documents will be accepted.
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This is exactly what the EU is for.
Making a balls-up and wasting time in an emergency?
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How exactly does having a certificate about vaccination, either electronically or in paper, wasting time?
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The EU is like a headless chicken in the pandemic. They'd be better focusing on vaccinating their people and using existing vaccination record systems.
The "EU" has nothing to do with the vaccination. Vaccination programs are being administered locally in many countries. Some countries are doing great and are hampered by a lack of available jabs, while other countries are frigging woeful and are giving the 3rd world a run for their money.
In the meantime I for one do not want the people managing a travel entry program to also be responsible for vaccine distribution. They are quite different competencies. Fortunately there is more than one employee in the "E
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This will be same "EU" who has royally fucked-up vaccine procurement in an attempt to slowly take over Health as an EU wide responsibility. The same "EU" who put all it's money on the Sanofi vaccine that turned out not to work. The same "EU" who is busy tilting the playing field in support of Pfizer therefore filtering yet more money to Germany. The same "EU" who cannot write a simple commercial contract. The same "EU" who decided to play politics with the Astra Zeneca vaccine thus ensuring some of it's cit
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The only sentence in that rant of yours hat has a semblance of truth in it is "Well I suppose EU citizens can vote them out."
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The only sentence in that rant of yours hat has a semblance of truth in it is "Well I suppose EU citizens can vote them out."
How would they do that, exactly? The EU has no mechanism for its subjects to vote in a new governing body.
Perhaps you're thinking of a "democracy".
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The EU is ruled by the European Council, which consists of the heads of governments of the respective EU members. They can be voted out.
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The EU is ruled by the European Council, which consists of the heads of governments of the respective EU members. They can be voted out.
Right. So there's no mechanism for voting out the ruling council as a council. On top of that, the commission is responsible for primary legislation, and it's an entirely politically appointed group. The EU as an organisation is actively anti-democracy.
The people of Europe should demand a United European State with proper meaningful elections or abolish the whole shitshow of a conveyor-belt of unelected failures being given jobs by their mates so that they can go on to be bigger failures on bigger stages wi
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Right. So there's no mechanism for voting out the ruling council as a council.
The fact that you don't understand how different democracies works is your problem, not a problem for that democracy. The EU is representative. Your petty party bullshit doesn't come into it. I vote for my representative, and I'll tell you precisely what I told the OP:
In the last EU election I along with enough of my fellow constituents voted *out* the previous members of the European parliament and got some better representation.
Yesterday I voted to keep my current representative in the EC.
Literally everyo
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Right. So there's no mechanism for voting out the ruling council as a council.
The fact that you don't understand how different democracies works is your problem, not a problem for that democracy. The EU is representative.
Yeah. You don't get to redefine democracy to suit your techno-fascist view. Sorry.
In the last EU election I along with enough of my fellow constituents voted *out* the previous members of the European parliament and got some better representation.
The European parliament? What has that do to with anything? They're irrelevant. I was talking about the government of the EU.
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I don't know if you've heard of a representative democracy, but I'll give you an example from the US. You can vote out your state's representative, but you have no power to vote on the status of congress members from other states.
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The only sentence in that rant of yours hat has a semblance of truth in it is "Well I suppose EU citizens can vote them out."
How would they do that, exactly? The EU has no mechanism for its subjects to vote in a new governing body.
Perhaps you're thinking of a "democracy".
You have the European Parliament [wikipedia.org] that is directly elected by the citizens of the European Union. The European Council and Councils of the European consists of elected officials (PMs/Presidents and ministers respectively) from each member state, which are also democratically elected. The commission (executive branch) is approved by the Parliament. Seems pretty democratic to me, even though I unfortunately can't vote.
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If you live in the EU, I think longer than 6 month? Then you can vote in EU elections, but in most (all?) countries not in federal or state elections. Have to check that again, somehow I think that refers to non EU citizens. But somehow it feels odd.
In some countries you can vote in city elections, not sure if that includes non EU citizens or only refers to EU citizens living in that city.
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If you live in the EU, I think longer than 6 month? Then you can vote in EU elections, but in most (all?) countries not in federal or state elections. Have to check that again, somehow I think that refers to non EU citizens. But somehow it feels odd.
In some countries you can vote in city elections, not sure if that includes non EU citizens or only refers to EU citizens living in that city.
I don't live in the EU, I live in Norway which is part of the EEA [wikipedia.org]. While functioning a lot like a membership in some ways, not in all - so we don't have any formal influence so the decisions impact us. Unfortunately, the result was just above 50% "No" last time - massively sponsored by agricultural interests, who basically lives of subsidies and high prices made possible by trade barriers.
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The EU has no mechanism for its subjects to vote in a new governing body.
Yes, they have. It is called an election.
Happens every 4 or 5 years, either for the governments of the member states, and/or for the EU. Ooops.
No idea why people are so silly.
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Well, to save hoofie the bother, let's go through his post sentence by sentence.
This will be same "EU" who has royally fucked-up vaccine procurement in an attempt to slowly take over Health as an EU wide responsibility.
The EU truly has royally fucked up vaccine procurement, and it absolutely was a power grab to establish an EU role in healthcare.
The same "EU" who put all it's money on the Sanofi vaccine that turned out not to work.
It is not true that the EU put all its money on the Sanofi vaccine.
It is true that it was a primary component of their approach to vaccinations, and it is true that it did not work.
The same "EU" who is busy tilting the playing field in support of Pfizer therefore filtering yet more money to Germany.
The EU are targeting AZ on purpose. Pfizer benefit in return. I'm not sure to what extent that actually helps Germany thou
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This will be same "EU" who has royally fucked-up vaccine procurement in an attempt to slowly take over Health as an EU wide responsibility.
Nope. The EU which procured the vaccine taking only slightly longer than individual efforts from member nations, but otherwise got a better price for all. The same "EU" that ran a perfectly fine procurement let down in the end by suppliers not delivering anywhere near the promised vaccines which were purchased.
Car analogy time: You go to Ford and buy a car. Ford suffers a delivery problem because they can't get your car from their factory to you. We all line up to call you stupid and incompetent and incapab
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The EU did mess up the procurement program for vaccines. They spent far to long trying to get the best price, and left it entirely down to the manufactures to sort out the manufacturing.
Other countries have done things a bit differently. The USA used it Defence Procurement Act to basically force Johnson & Johnson to get Merck to manufacture their vaccine. The UK bunged a whole wodge of cash to AstraZeneca among others to setup new manufacturing facilities in the UK.
You are right it was not the EU that s
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This will be same "EU" who has royally fucked-up vaccine procurement in an attempt to slowly take over Health as an EU wide responsibility.
Strictly speaking the EU has not fucked up anything. The companies that "suddenly can not deliver" have fucked it up.
In hind sight the EU, or its member states, could have made more to make sure that the companies involved ramp up the production capacity.
The same "EU" who decided to play politics with the Astra Zeneca vaccine
There is no such politics, you are misinforme
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The "EU" has nothing to do with the vaccination
Tell that to Ursula Van Der Leyen, who keeps digging the EU hole deeper and deeper.
The EU have
- organised a single central contract for vaccine purchases
- got pissed off because they fucked it up
- tried to close trade with Northern Ireland over it
- approved a block on exporting vaccines to Australia
- threatened to block exports of vaccines to the UK
That's not "nothing to do", that's incompetent interference throughout the entire fucking process.
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LOL Here's reality for you:
- The contract is just fine.
- They are pissed because companies didn't deliver on the promised contract. What are you going to do? You can't exactly go down to the ford dealership and throw a rock through their window because you don't have your car yet either.
- They fucked up big time on the NI issue. That is something that they rolled back within 2 hours. Fuck them right!
- Of course they are blocking vaccines. Everyone is. That's why they don't have enough at the moment. But sin
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You claimed the EU had nothing to do with the vaccine and then in your very next post admit it:
Here's reality for you:
- The contract is just fine.
- They are pissed because companies didn't deliver on the promised contract. What are you going to do?
Being disappointed at a delay in delivery is not what happened. What happened was a full on screaming toys out of the pram with accusations and lies. All of which suddenly went very quiet when it was demonstrated that the company DID deliver on the promised contract.
- Of course they are blocking vaccines. Everyone is.
STOP LYING. You keep repeating this idiotic fucking nonsense and I have to keep pointing out that it's a fucking lie.
No. Everyone is not.
But yes blame the "others" while excusing everyone and everything else.
Well yes, tha
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EU is focusing on vaccinating their people. EU is also focusing on vaccinating _other_ people - by selling vaccines to other countries WHEN THE EXISTING VACCINES ARE NOT ENOUGH for EU.
This is despite the fact that Astra-Zeneca has consistently under-delivered agreed upon quantities while exporting (out of EU) part of the vaccines produced in EU.
The - understandable by most - thing to do would be "No vaccine exports until every EU citizen/inhabitant has been vaccinated".
Even so, the vaccination effort in the
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The - understandable by most - thing to do would be "No vaccine exports until every EU citizen/inhabitant has been vaccinated".
Such a shame that the EU rely on imports from the UK for the vaccine production materials.
It's almost as though international trade benefits both parties.
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Such a shame that the EU rely on imports from the UK for the vaccine production materials.
You are just silly.
What exactly would that be the EU relies on? Glass? Water? Some chemicals used in the process? Sorry ...
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Some chemicals used in the process?
No, biologicals.
What, Der Spiegel hasn't acknowledged Pfizer's dependency on Croda?
If only I was as well informed as you instead of being silly.
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Pfizer is producing the BionTech vaccine.
And Pfizer is in the US and not in the EU.
No idea if they can not produce their own Croda. ... I don't know if UK is delivering it into the EU either.
As I have no clue what Croda is, besides a name of a company
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Oh ffs.
COMIRNATY is being produced in BioNTechâ(TM)s and Pfizerâ(TM)s manufacturing sites in Europe.
-- https://www.pfizer.com/news/pr... [pfizer.com]
Croda is a UK firm (with Canadian facilities) supplying Pfizer in the EU.
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Well,
then reread what you wrote before.
You said something like the EU needs a chemical called "croda", which the EU only can get from the UK.
And bottom line, I have no idea what you want to point out.
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No. I said Pfizer have a dependency on Croda.
What I wanted to point out was the farcical threat by the EU to ban vaccine exports to the country supplies key components of those vaccines.
What you did is
- Tell me I was silly, for no discernible reason
- Display your ignorance regarding Pfizer's global operations
- Admit your ignorance regarding Pfizer's dependency
- Misrepresent what I said.
I'm trying to be kind here, as this is not your native language, so I'll stop now.
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Then scroll back: you literally said the EU is depending on the UK to deliver "coda" for making the Pfizer/BioNTech mRNA vaccine.
No idea why that even was an issue. Who cares who is relying on someone else as long as that other one can deliver?
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you literally said the EU is depending on the UK to deliver "coda" for making the Pfizer/BioNTech mRNA vaccine
No, I did not. I said
What, Der Spiegel hasn't acknowledged Pfizer's dependency on Croda?
The EU is depending on the UK to deliver vaccine components. Those components are made by Croda.
No idea why that even was an issue. Who cares who is relying on someone else as long as that other one can deliver?
Then why the fuck are you repeatedly refusing to understand what I'm saying if you don't even fucking care?
The EU cares, because the EU is threatening to block vaccine exports, something that Calinous stupidly supports.
It's stupid because, as I pointed out to him before you interrupted with irrelevant nonsense,
the EU rely on imports from the UK for the vaccine production materials.
They do, and that's why banning vaccine exports to the UK would be fucking stupid.
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The EU is not banning vaccine exports to the UK.
Why the funk would they do that?
And why again is that even an issue for discussion?
But this is the EU and can you stop demonstrating how fucking stupid the EU and its supporters are.
Seems you are an idiot.
The EU ordered e.g. from AstraZeneca a huge amount of vaccines, AZ did not deliver. But wanted to sent a nice batch to Australia. THAT was blocked.
I really wonder where this stupid anti EU propaganda is popping up.
What, Der Spiegel hasn't acknowledged Pfize
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https://www.voanews.com/covid-... [voanews.com]
You're just being a cunt on purpose now. It's been made very fucking clear that the EU is making threats because they fucked up their procurement. We've posted evidence on multiple times so fuck off with your constant refusal to accept simple facts and attempts to shoot down straw men.
No more replies from me, you are not worth the time. Enjoy your parents dying from COVI
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ROFL :P
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Under delivered on a contract that was very explicit about "best effort"? Care to explain that? In reality Astra-Zeneca are doing there best and have consequently fulfilled the contract. Perhaps if the EU had spent a bit more like the UK did to support ramping up the manufacturing (UK has paid AZ and others to setup new manufacturing facilities) they would be in a better position. They didn't and without hindsight it was a stupid idea. You are not going to regret having too many doses. You are going to regr
Fauci is still telling folk to wear masks (Score:2, Offtopic)
I guess the point is, I'm not letting my guard down until either the numbers are *way* down (e.g. herd immunity's kicked in) and the virus is dying / dead out or we've got vaccination for the variants too.
The real danger is we let our guard down and it mutates into something that gets past us again, and then we're right
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I basically plan on wearing a mask a lot more often in the future, even if Coronavirus is completely gone. There still is the flu, and even if it doesn't kill me, I still don't want to be sick with the flu. Who would want that?
It's mostly for other people (Score:2)
That's the key though, if we mask off too soon the virus'll start spreading rapidly again. Eventually it'll mutate past our defenses. But, well, it's become a political issue. So it's going to be hard to stop that from happening.
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That's ok, I don't want other people to get sick either.
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Yep, same here. Last year was the first year in my life without even catching a cold. I like that.
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The flu season, at least so far in the US, has been unusually mild, probably thanks to all the Covid precautions as well as an effective annual vaccine. It seems like that's a potential indicator that the spread of Covid could have been much worse without the precautions everyone is taken, although obviously it's hard to estimate by what sort of factor.
BTW, how many people, I wonder, who normally don't bother with an annual flu vaccine actually got one this year. You can count me among them.
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BTW, how many people, I wonder, who normally don't bother with an annual flu vaccine actually got one this year. You can count me among them.
I've always wondered if high vaccination rates would heavily influence which strains of flu spread in a given year. Too many vaccinated and the unchecked strains win out more quickly.
Vaccination rate is only about 10% higher this year. But I'm shocked - I had no idea 189.4 million flu vaccines were a small increase from year to year. I would have bet on 20-30% of the population. I've never had a flu vaccine.
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Same for me.
Well, a little bit sick you could say, but no real cold. I have something in my ear, if it is to long to cold from there a cold can spring up. But winter I did fine. Funnily I had a cold in August ... a friend conviced me to go swimming, without a towel. And my wet hair probably triggered my ear.
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Fine, but don't assume that it's as comfortable for everyone else as it is for you. Same as going vegetarian or abstinence-only birth control - if you don't find it difficult to keep up, well it's probably good for your health and environment, etc. But don't expect others to live like this long term.
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If you're sick or showing symptoms, you better be wearing a mask in public or staying home.
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Agreed for some definition of sick (distinguishable from one's recurring seasonal allergies)
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I'm sort of glad that wearing a mask in public has (mostly) broken though the social acceptability barrier. This was already common practice in most Asian countries. It was about time for the rest of the world to catch up. They're a simple, effective way to keep people who may be sick from spreading their germs and viruses. So I think it will be more common to see people wearing masks in the future if they're perhaps not feeling well but need to go outside anyhow, or perhaps as a simple preventative dur
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You people are disgusting and using a crisis to destroy individualism
Don't worry, you can buy a designer mask, or make one yourself and personalize it. You are unique, just like everyone else. A perfect snowflake.
What does the right wing Snowflake talking point (Score:2)
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It doesn't, but if he wants to feel special, he still can.
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Not my approval, but he must obey the laws. No public nudity on unapproved places for him.
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These schemes are pointless (Score:4, Insightful)
Restrictions and advisories countries place on travel from foreigners are strange. Countries with the high level of viral transmission making it hard for people to enter from areas of lower rates of spread. And of course US state departments unending and sometimes comical warnings against travel to virtually everywhere due to safety... as if this country is itself a bastion of safety.
These schemes are pointless now except for travel to countries that are actually containing the virus and have community spread under control. Those with unchecked community transmission like the US and all of Europe it makes no difference. You are not appreciably any more or less risk of anything than anyone else.
Once everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated these schemes are especially pointless. Unless the destination country makes vaccination of the local population mandatory there is unlikely to be a meaningful difference in risk from a random local vs a random foreigner.
As time goes on and the virus like magic begins to go away there is less and less of a benefit in perusing these schemes.
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it adds an incentive to get vaccinated and in order to achieve herd immunity and minimize mutations you want as many people as possible to get vaccinated. The society's gains from everyone being vaccinated than the cumulative individual gains of people from their own vaccination.
So if you can't pass a law achieving policy you want use a backdoor pretense to make everyone's lives miserable until they capitulate? Not something I can support. Not something I recommend anyone support regardless of their feelings of the underling issue.
One thing to create a merit based excuse for a restriction. No metal allowed next to superconducting magnets. No smoking next to cryo tanks...etc. Quite another to create backdoor pretexts for achieving what you could not otherwise achieve thru norma
Only certain nations (Score:2)
Personally I doubt that most people will bar travellers from most countries.
The money is too tempting.
Well, except perhaps from "shithole states" like Brasil or the USA.
Those kind of death rates can not be simply ignored.
And that level of ignoring civic responsibility demonstrates a easy willingness to "game" the rules..
Re:Welcome to nazi Germany e-papers please (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yeah, and whenever I've travelled to a new country I've always consulted my doctor and gotten all of the recommended vaccinations for my destination. So, just off the top of my head, I'm immune to:
All of the usual US domestic diseases with available shots.
Yellow Fever
Hepatitis A & B
Japanese Encephalitis
Meningococcal Meningitis
Typhoid Fever
and
Polio (Which I didn't even know was still a thing before I went to Vietnam.)
Plus, I take my anti-materials when (but only when) I goto countries where that's still
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Basically, if you come from a "yellow" country you already need a relatively current (72 of 48 hours old) test (Real-Time PCR).
If you come from a country on the "red" list you go into quarantine.
This "I have been vaccinated against COVID" replaces the current RT-PCR test documentation.
I don't see any practical difference between a "I have been vaccinated against COVID with vaccine X at date Y" paper and a "I have been tested against COVID at date X in location Y" - other than that one of them expires in a f
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What is new is that your can't simply pay for a vaccination if you want to travel.
Many people will be waiting for their turn while older people go off on their holidays. People who are already under great stress after a year of hell.
I don't know what the right thing to do is, I just know it's not simple.
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Social credit score next?
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Re: Welcome to nazi Germany e-papers please (Score:2, Informative)
Non-sensical response, this is in regard to travel between EU member nations, not between, say, US and France.
Please no (Score:2)
No, they should really go somewhere else. I hear [X] is great. They should go to [X] . And plan to stay there. I hear a single US dollar will get them laid by beautiful women but only if they haven't gotten the vaccine like the weak men of that country. All unvaccinated people should flock to [X] and stay there living a life of hot sex because of their manly unvaccinated status.
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Nazi Germany would be forcing everyone to get the vaccine. That's not happening. What might be happening is saying that you have to prove you have been vaccinated in order to move from one country to another.
I expect we'll see this around the world - No one will force an American to get the vaccination, but it wouldn't surprise me that a year from now Americans will need to prove they are vaccinated in order to travel to go drink Margaritas at Senor Frogs in Cancun.
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European Commission officials have made clear they want to avoid discrimination.
Then don't issue additional travel certificates discriminating from those who are deemed by you to be allowed to travel and those who aren't.
Behind the scenes, the EC is hoping for the IATA (and US TSA) to enforce the requirements with their other no-fly and traveler-alert systems. That'll allow them to wash their hands of these political concerns whilst also enforcing these requirements upon the vast majority of travelers.
The EC doesn't have an EU-wide grasp on public health protocols, however, so they may be scrambling at a domestic level to gain compliance across the EU.
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European Commission officials have made clear they want to avoid discrimination.
Then don't issue additional travel certificates discriminating from those who are deemed by you to be allowed to travel and those who aren't.
Look, this is really simple. Vaccinated people can travel, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxer nutcases and others who refuse vaccination can't travel because they spread the disease. That is not discrimination any more than you refusing a puss oozing person in the final stages of pneumonic plague into your house to cough blood on every member of your family is discrimination. It is common sense deeply rooted in survival instinct and a distinct lack of desire to make a pandemic worse.
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Except that people who have been vaccinated can also spread the disease. In the case of the Az vaccine, about 20-30% of recipients can still become infected. For Pfizer and Moderna it is definitely better, but still ~5% can become infected.
If you have enough population level immunity in your country to protect against community spread, then it doesn't really matter if someone turns up infected (whether vaccinated or not). If you don't have enough population level immunity, then you shouldn't be letting peop
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Except that people who have been vaccinated can also spread the disease. In the case of the Az vaccine, about 20-30% of recipients can still become infected. For Pfizer and Moderna it is definitely better, but still ~5% can become infected.
If you have enough population level immunity in your country to protect against community spread, then it doesn't really matter if someone turns up infected (whether vaccinated or not). If you don't have enough population level immunity, then you shouldn't be letting people in just because they have had a vaccination. This is further complicated by the mutation issue, as if you have obtained herd immunity in your country from vaccination, the biggest threat by far becomes a vaccine escape mutant. But by it's very nature you cannot protect against this by just checking that visitors are vaccinated.
This vaccine passport thing might be useful later on, but for now the best approach seems to be vaccinating your own country's population, pre-travel testing, and quarantining people from areas with high infection rate. From what I've read that sounds like the approach IATA is taking, with vaccination just another item added to this information. It only seems to be stupid politicians taking about vaccine passports as a panacea.
Sure, but when the time comes I'm still not letting untested, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxer nutcases and others who refuse vaccination into my country based on the idea that: If everybody else get's vaccinated <insert type of nutcase> doesn't have to.
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Actually it's both. Whether you travel within the EU or internationally the rules in many countries right now include all manner of testing and mandatory quarantining. I'm not sure about you but spending my summer holiday locked in a foreign hotel doesn't sound appealing to me, regardless if that is flying down to Spain or to Australia.
A passporting system will be needed if the summer holidays season is to be functional, and god knows internationally there's plenty of reciprocal agreements for policies and
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The EU has free movement between member states. You can jump in a car right now and drive to any of them. What there is are local restrictions regarding travel between various health restricted zones, this includes some countries, some states, in some cases even restrictions to specific cities. The result of this is you can still travel, you just need to follow a local health guideline usually something involving a quarantine and COVID test.
I'm not sure about you, but I prefer not to spend my holiday locked