Daycares In Finland Built a 'Forest Floor,' and It Changed Children's Immune Systems (sciencealert.com) 73
omfglearntoplay shares a report from ScienceAlert: Playing through the greenery and litter of a mini forest's undergrowth for just one month may be enough to change a child's immune system, according to a small new experiment. When daycare workers in Finland rolled out a lawn, planted forest undergrowth such as dwarf heather and blueberries, and allowed children to care for crops in planter boxes, the diversity of microbes in the guts and on the skin of young kids appeared healthier in a very short space of time. Compared to other city kids who play in standard urban daycares with yards of pavement, tile and gravel, 3-, 4-, and 5-year-olds at these greened-up daycare centers in Finland showed increased T-cells and other important immune markers in their blood within 28 days.
"We also found that the intestinal microbiota of children who received greenery was similar to the intestinal microbiota of children visiting the forest every day," says environmental scientist Marja Roslund from the University of Helsinki. Prior research has shown early exposure to green space is somehow linked to a well-functioning immune system, but it's still not clear whether that relationship is causal or not. The experiment in Finland is the first to explicitly manipulate a child's urban environment and then test for changes in their micriobiome and, in turn, a child's immune system. While the findings don't hold all the answers, they do support a leading idea -- namely that a change in environmental microbes can relatively easily affect a well-established microbiome in children, giving their immune system a helping hand in the process. The study was published in the journal Science Advances.
"We also found that the intestinal microbiota of children who received greenery was similar to the intestinal microbiota of children visiting the forest every day," says environmental scientist Marja Roslund from the University of Helsinki. Prior research has shown early exposure to green space is somehow linked to a well-functioning immune system, but it's still not clear whether that relationship is causal or not. The experiment in Finland is the first to explicitly manipulate a child's urban environment and then test for changes in their micriobiome and, in turn, a child's immune system. While the findings don't hold all the answers, they do support a leading idea -- namely that a change in environmental microbes can relatively easily affect a well-established microbiome in children, giving their immune system a helping hand in the process. The study was published in the journal Science Advances.
BREAKING NEWS! (Score:5, Insightful)
Exposure to germs and bacteria influences the immune system!
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Tetanus and botulism are not "harmless".
Re:BREAKING NEWS! (Score:4, Funny)
Tetanus and botulism are not "harmless".
Depends, have you been vaccinated for tetanus?
Botulism, Arnie Bacteria, Sal Monella (and their lethal cousin E-Coli) don't usually show up in places people haven't used as an outdoor toilet.
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Botulism, Arnie Bacteria, Sal Monella (and their lethal cousin E-Coli) don't usually show up in places people haven't used as an outdoor toilet.
People aren't the only ones running around using the world as a bathroom, nor the only ones who can carry that stuff and distribute it fecally, especially Botulism [nih.gov].
Re:BREAKING NEWS! (Score:5, Informative)
Depends, have you been vaccinated for tetanus?
You realize that tetanus isnt less harmful because you have been vaccinated its less harmful because your immune response is tetanized to react quickly to and destroy it before it does harm because of the vaccine.
Minor natural exposure to various pathogens and similar pathogens to things that cause severe disease often do result in an enhanced immune response to what would likely be infectious exposures otherwise, not a strong as the one triggered by either being vaccinated for a specific pathogen or having 'beaten' it before but none the less. So there is something to the let your kids play in the dirt to stay healthy theory of immunology.
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would different types of forests produce different types of immunities.
i think the next step is to quantify these findings.
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"I live in the forest canopy, you insensitive clod."
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i see
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Picked the wrong example (Score:3)
You realize that tetanus isnt less harmful because you have been vaccinated
Actually, yes, very much.
You selected the wrong example to argue about.
Tetanus is less harmful because of the vaccination, and exclusively because of it.
Minor natural exposure to various pathogens and similar pathogens to things that cause severe disease often do result in an enhanced immune response to what would likely be infectious exposures otherwise,
(I'll skip over the fact that for the immune system "similar" has a very narrow and specific definition)
Your whole reasoning breaks down in the specific case of Tetanus.
You see, with Tetanus, the bacteria itself is not the main problem. Your body could get rid of it (relatively) easily.
The problem is the toxin that is secreted by these bacteria, which cause
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Who told you botulism was rare, and why did you believe them?
The bacterial spores which cause it are common in both soil and water. [wikipedia.org]
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Both can be true. The bacteria can be common and the disease can be rare. Food safety goes a long way toward that.
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As does chemical kinetics.
just because a molecule or the like exists, doesn't mean it hits the other molecule in just the right way for them to react. Let alone the many, /many/ times that needs to happen, to actually result in an infection.
Hence enzymes and generally catalysts accelerating reactions so much. They help with that orientation and such.
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Botulism is really only a problem in anaerobic situations. Generally improperly canned food.
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Or everything packaged under a nitrogen athmosphere. Like fresh meat at the supermarket.
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What's interesting is that they have found a novel, safe way to boost kids immune systems.
This has been known for a long time but used to involve having infants sleep outside (well wrapped up) and the like.
Re:BREAKING NEWS! (Score:5, Insightful)
As usual, you're wrong on almost all counts. It's been known for at least three decades at this point. Allergies end at our Eastern border. Because we Finns live in completely different hygiene standards than people in Russian Karelia do. Statistics were very clear on this. We just didn't have a peer reviewed study on the specific topic of the kind of soil kids need to be digging in. The reason they finally got the money to look into it is because it was documented so well and because we have such a big problem with allergies.
And so, Karelian children have next to no allergies, and minimal additional child mortality because they are allowed to go into the nearest forest to play and get really dirty in the process. Whereas we have a tiny amount less of child mortality, but our allergies are close to top of the world, impacting a lot of children and now adults because our children largely don't get to do that.
Having infants sleep outside doesn't help here. We do that. In winter. In Finnish winter. You know, the winter that Soviet soldiers found too cold to fight in. What you need according to the study is children digging around in the dirt without washing their hands for a while. And not just city dirty, but forest dirt at that. Doesn't need to be some primeval/medieval dirt which is what the Green anti-science nutjobs are pushing for either. It can be standard Finnish "talousmetsä", forest grown for economic reasons.
But it needs to be forest soil, with microflora typical for it. And kids need to be allowed to dig in it and get dirty for significant periods of time for weeks and maybe even months without yet another Karen screeching that her child is dirty and therefore childcare workers need to change their ways. And then same Karen not knowing why her child is the one with all the allergies.
Well, now we have a peer reviewed study in addition to statistics of last thirty years at the very least to answer her questions. Perhaps now we can finally start making changes to extreme hygiene standards we raise our children in for the better. Because there are few drivers for change in our systems stronger than "Karens complaining".
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I recommend reading the study instead of engaging in this guesswork that was addressed in the study. It was specifically done so you don't have to guess.
Forest therapy (Score:4, Interesting)
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probably anti-christian, reverse-racist and silencing right wing voices too
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Nope, the bible is full of germophilic tales.
Hebrews in Egypt knew the best way to innoculate your infant son was to place it in the crocodile-infested waters of the river Nile. Hebrews in the Herodian Kingdom knew the best way to innoculate your infant son was to place it where the livestock ate.
Re: Sounds like a bunch of environmentalist... (Score:1)
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Duh, it's Finland, in Europe. We do have what we call religious and conservative groups, and compared to our averages they are. But we aren't particularly religious or conservative compared to the US.
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Funny part is that this is literally the opposite. This is the "raise your children in a traditional way, let them play in the dirt, it's good for them".
That's tiny (Score:4, Informative)
Kids in real Forest Kindergartens are in the forest all day, every day, no matter if summer or winter, rain or snow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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I was such a kid. And I *hated* that.
I willfull went out into the forest to play by myself, with my brothers, when the weather was fine. To this day I think only a dirty bicycle is a cherished bicycle.
But this "NO MATTER THE WEATHE!R!!exclamation mark!!111one(lim (x->0) (sin(x)/x)" mindset is just blind ideologic extremism. It is just as much not sane as said dirt-phobic Karens.
microbiome progress (Score:5, Interesting)
As a Celiac, the microbiome discoveries have a ring of truth for someone for whom bread is as intolerable as rat poison. Yes its the immune system attacking with its Cytokine storm that which it sees as foreign to the body. Celiacs are completely intolerant to wheat, barley and rye. So its gluten that is the culprit and each of those are grasses that the human body lacks a fourth stomach to breakdown its gluten proteins, unlike cows. All humans simply pass gluten proteins undigested as a result.
The gut takes the hit, its flora and fauna wiped out with each exposure in celiac disease. 1/64th of a gram is all it takes to trigger an immune response. AND the environmental connection strongly implied by this study adds to the microbiota studies which show healthy guts differ qualitatively. Healthy people have no reaction no symptoms eating grasses.
Thus progress on how it might be possible to control the incidence in the population of gut disease. Possible treatment pathways become emergent as more is learned how the environment can trigger disease in the first place.
As Celiac is a genetic condition that is irreversible, prevention is the goal. Somewhere in the timeline of a lifetime DQ1 & DQ8 genes get triggered from the off condition to on by an environmental variable. Disease ensues
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As Celiac is a genetic condition that is irreversible, prevention is the goal.
It's currently irreversible, but perhaps a retroviral cure is possible. However, a lot of money is made selling celiacs medications...
Re:microbiome progress (Score:5, Insightful)
However, a lot of money is made selling celiacs medications...
And vastly more money is made selling gluten-free everything to those who don't have celiac disease.
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Uuum, never heard of fecal transplants?
Hell, you can pre-digest food *outside* of your body. It's called fermentation!
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. All humans simply pass gluten proteins undigested
To be clear, gluten is digestable, but not fully; some proteins are passed through. It seems these are the parts that cause the celiac reaction.
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Uuum, my microbiome digest gluten just fine.
What planet are you from?
No, seriously.
It is just about the only healthy ingredient in the drug preserve called bread.
Want some of my microbiome?
Getting dirty is good for a kid's immune system (Score:5, Interesting)
We've known this for awhile, and this little exercise provides another point.
On a related note, owning (dirty) pets is good for your immune system, too. One study [rutgers.edu] indicated that pet ownership has a positive effect on the frequency of illness and prevalence of sickness in all ethnic groups, and that people who had their first pet between the age of 3 and 6 had the lowest rates of frequency of illness, sickness length, and airborne allergies of any group studied.
Re:Getting dirty is good for a kid's immune system (Score:4, Interesting)
We've known this for awhile, and this little exercise provides another point.
On a related note, owning (dirty) pets is good for your immune system, too. One study [rutgers.edu] indicated that pet ownership has a positive effect on the frequency of illness and prevalence of sickness in all ethnic groups, and that people who had their first pet between the age of 3 and 6 had the lowest rates of frequency of illness, sickness length, and airborne allergies of any group studied.
It also appears to prevent leukaemia:
https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/child-leukaemia-linked-reduced-exposure-germs/ [www.nhs.uk]
I listened to a podcast about this a while back, and basically they said the clue is in how child leukaemia rates are correlated with the level of development in a country - the more developed the more incidences - and this lead them to perform the study.
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The same goes for washing dishes by hand vs using a dishwasher
https://time.com/3717020/dishw... [time.com]
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Not if you actually wash your dishes by hand, and don't just bother with making it *look* like you cleaned stuff, as nasty stupid people usually do.
Astounding!!!1!one (Score:5, Interesting)
Humans often see themselves as separate from their environment, something artificially inserted into nature. They're not.
Through countless generations, humans are adapted to coexist with nature. We have miriads of viruses, bacteria, yeasts and other types of microorganisms living on and inside us, probably more individuals than our own cells. Some enable us to take up nutrients, or they compete with others that might cause disease. They're integral to our existence.
We could nuke this "dirty dirty nature" (good with bad) with all that sterile germ-free sanitizing, whis is to our own detriment. Or nurture them (with healthy foods, lifestyles and contact) and have the good guys continue doing their job. Nature is not hostile (as we subconsciously seem to believe), but arguably benevolent: we are adapted to it, we have thrived in it, and maintaining the status quo is in fact beneficial to us.
A microbiologist friend makes some probiotic animal supplements that contain a mix of microorganism typically found in earthworm guts. Earthworm guts are veritable reactors for these, which are their only way of breaking down foods, with some species claimed to consume half their body weight in food per day. Animals receiving these supplements quickly and remarkably improve: horses' coats become shiny, dogs' ulcers heal, farmed chickens' flesh becomes pink like that of freerange chickens and without the need for antibiotics. Some earthworm farmers confessed to me that worm compost is their go-to (for ingestion) when their bodies feel a bit "off".
And lets not get started on how plants depend on these same soil microorganisms for a well-rounded nutrient uptake, and how modern agriculture's methods and chemicals kill them off in short order.
(Incidentally, healthy and multiplying soil organisms, while enbling denser and healthier crops, also sequester a lot of carbon in their bodies...)
The ancient Celtics understood this. (Score:5, Funny)
Not applicable to Florida (Score:2)
Play outside in the woods and the fire ants will eat you for lunch. Nature sucks.
Re:Not applicable to Florida (Score:4, Funny)
Florida sucks.
FTFY.
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Added benefit (Score:4, Funny)
By getting the Finnish kids used to raking forest floors from such as early age Finland will be even less susceptible to forest fires than it already is!
Need to teach children at a younger age the danger (Score:1)
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Well it makes sense. (Score:3)
Forest Kindergartens (Score:4, Interesting)
Forest Kindergartens (Waldkindergarten) have existed in Germany for ages, and have been shown to provide a number of developmental benefits, but I'm unaware of any studies that have linked these specifically with strengthened immune systems. Many of the parents that gravitate to these tend to also have rather strange ideas about modern medicine and vaccination, so this could also explain why there hasn't been a serious scientific study on this topic before this one.
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We have them in Denmark as well. We call them skovbørnehave, but it translates the same.
My first kid will attend one starting at age 13 months, and he’ll be outside for hours every day of the year for the next few years. Crazy concept to me, though I like it. My Danish wife just thinks it’s normal.
Allergies (Score:4, Informative)
I wonder how this would affect allergies, this dovetails nicely with the hygiene hypothesis [wikipedia.org] which correlates very closely with my own empirical observations. That children (of parents I know) with allergies all seem to have mothers that obsessively clean their homes. Everything is cleaned with bleach and antibacterial sprays, the houses stink of chemical not natural odors and their children are denied access to the outside because it is dirty.
When I was a kid, a working class kid in the UK we were expect to play-out most of the time. We explored parks, fields and woods, we rolled in the grass, ate raw fruits, eased our thirst from steams. We got so used to it in fact we'd often need to be told to come in when the weather got bad.
Re: Allergies (Score:3)
Chemicals (Score:2)
The 700+ new chemicals every year, plus all their interactions, plus their interactions inside the body are not tested (less than a rounding error.)
Regulations on the few that are such as formaldehyde, are allowed in larger amounts than is safe especially for young children who are more susceptible and near the ground where most accumulate even with air circulation. In the USA, our safe limit is set per product; a house is made with and filled with many products... That is one that took forever to limit it
But there is always that group of kids... (Score:2)
Do kids play outside in the dirt any more? (Score:3)
I read many years ago that making homes extra sterile, and not allowing kids to muck about outside, can lead to an "inexperienced" immune system, which tends to over-react to potential allergens and irritants. Allergies do seem to have been steadily increasing, which might lend support to that theory. However, it may be that people are more aware of allergies now, so there is reporting bias.
When I was prescribed hefty doses of antibiotics to treat pneumonia, there was a concern about killing off "friendly" bacteria, so allowing other organisms to take over. I received anti-fungal mouth wash to prevent oral thrush. Bad guts are a common problem. I read some articles about varieties of Lactobacillus, that are important in various fermented foods, such as yogurt, cheese, and sauerkraut. It was interesting that a Lactobacillus variant is important in vaginal health, as it drives out dangerous pathogens, mostly by making the environment acidic. This did not put me off my cheese.
Re: Do kids play outside in the dirt any more? (Score:2)
My best friend who's ridden with a ton of allergies told me once 'I want to go back in time, find who was the first to wash a vegetable before eating it and kill him'.
My mom kept the house too clean as I was showing astma symptoms very early. I had at least 20 allergies as a kid. Luckily, around age of 5 I went back to playing in dirt. Still, I had them all until after puberty.
Lastly, the final few disappeared much later in life when I stopped eating carbs, particularly grain.
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Well, with "modern" vegetables and fruits from the supermarket, you better check if the damn thing is coated in poison ... literally ... before eating it unwashed.
Because that is popular for "preservation". Especially potatoes and citrus fruits.
And no, cutting off the outer millimeter won't help. It actually penetrates up to centimeters deep. Anothet reason to personally get to know your local farmers and buy from them it they do it right.
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The "Save the children" mindset that has made many parents wary of letting their kids go out and play is another large influence on crap immune systems. I trust my kid, but I don't trust my neighbors not to call CPS if they see a solo 8 year old playing in the neighborhood, and I fully distrust CPS' judgement about my parental judgement. So kids that 30+ years ago would be roaming the neighborhood and building forts in the forested section of the park are instead cooped up inside playing on consoles, tabl
tl,dr: cooping everyone up was a horrible idea (Score:2)
Why just kids? (Score:3)
I assume that the kindergarten location was just an easy win for the researchers, and I definitely get the "think of the children" aspect. But, would the next step be to try this in an office building? Maybe just a cafeteria or commons area. Companies spend billions each year in sick leave. Could this cost be slashed by hiring a horticulturist to spread live plants throughout the facility? Would this have the same effect on adults as it does children?
yeah, the 1800's were SO much better (Score:2)
"The child mortality rate in the United States, for children under the age of five, was 462.9 deaths per thousand births in 1800. This means that for every thousand babies born in 1800, over 46 percent did not make it to their fifth birthday."
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The 1800 were already the time of psychopath-capitalist industrialization was in full swing, with child labor and producta being crazy unsafe for profit.
So you picked the dumbest time period for ypur argument, you rambling idiot.
Also, you are confusing lack of medical knowledge with lack of for-profit lifestyle degeneration. Deliberately.
Try again; with your brain turned on, and your triggers turned off, kiddo.
Time to push anti-forest narratives (Score:2)
Bugs 'n Twigs (Score:2)
Thats why I feed my kids Bugs 'n Twigs cereal in the morning. Has all the protein, fiber, and natural goodness a growing child needs.
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How is shrimp and asparagus any different? It's basically *soft* "bugs and twigs".
But fuck off, cereal is literally not evem human food! Are you a moo cow or what? Try giving your kid some fruits and chicken or such!
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You realize that was a joke, right?
Yes, bugs and twigs can be healthy, which is part of the joke.
Bugs 'n Twigs - wholesome goodness from the forest floor, part of a complete breakfast.
Rolling the dice (Score:2)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but IgE is the highest in children at 0.05% of blood product. Meaning that the 'speed dating' that goes on in the thymus with antibodies + antigens in there is at its highest chance of a match. At which point the antibody is copied out into the lymph nodes and you're allergic to that antigen for the rest of your life.
So increasing exposures is just rolling more dice for more antigens is it not? That 0.05% level drops drastically as you age.