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Beer Science

Should We Be Drinking Less? (nytimes.com) 174

Can a daily drink or two lead to better health? For many years, the federal government's influential dietary guidelines implied as much, saying there was evidence that moderate drinking could lower the risk of heart disease and reduce mortality. But now a committee of scientists that is helping to update the latest edition of the Dietary Guidelines for Americans is taking a harder stance on alcohol. From a report: The committee said in a recent conference call that it plans to recommend that men and women who drink limit themselves to a single serving of wine, beer or liquor per day. Do not drink because you think it will make you healthier, the committee says: It won't. And it maintains that drinking less is generally better for health than drinking more. That message is a departure from previous guidelines, which since 1980 have defined "moderate" drinking as up to two drinks a day for men and one for women. Government agencies have also long defined a standard drink as 12 ounces of regular beer, five ounces of wine, or one and a half ounces of distilled spirits (40 percent alcohol), amounts often exceeded in Americans' typical "drink."

Between 1990 and 2010, many editions of the guidelines, which are updated every five years, discouraged heavy drinking and warned pregnant women and people with certain medical conditions not to drink. But they also noted that moderate drinking was linked to fewer heart attacks and lower mortality. The 2010 guidelines mentioned that moderate drinking may even "help to keep cognitive function intact with age." The new recommendation would be a victory for experts who have long questioned the health halo around moderate drinking. They say that studies showing it can protect health are deeply flawed, and that any potential cardiovascular benefits would be outweighed by the fact that alcohol is a leading preventable cause of cancer. According to the National Cancer Institute, even one drink a day increases the risk of breast, esophageal and oral cancer. The new advice is not yet final. The advisory panel is expected to include it in a report that it will release publicly in mid-July and submit to the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health and Human Services. Those two agencies are scheduled to publish the official dietary guidelines later this year.

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Should We Be Drinking Less?

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    • Exactly - after all how I am supposed to drink less than nothing?

      • Oh shit, I'm all out of medals.

        Just spitballin' here, but it's possible that the "we" in this headline is about "us" on a whole and not "you" specifically.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Opportunist ( 166417 )

        I don't know, but your might want to tell my doc who asked me if I drink less than before, and when I truthfully said no (because for that I'd have to somehow produce alcohol due to not drinking any) I got a tirade on how dangerous alcohol is.

        No, telling him "there is no less than none" didn't work. Doctors ain't mathematicians, tell them what they want to hear and don't expect logic.

        • It might have been easier just to tell him that you don't drink. This is what I do, it kind of makes further discussion moot.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • "No."

      Exactly! It's against the law!

      Betteridge's Law of Headlines ending with a Question Mark.

    • Yes

      We really should. Especially in lockdown, where

      Ah fuck it you first I'm going to get another beer.

      Still should be drinking less. Ain't gonna.

      • "Cancel culture" is free speech and the free market in action. Naturally, Republicans hate that.

        Now do hate speech.

  • by avandesande ( 143899 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:24AM (#60283148) Journal
    If you drink even a single drink every day it saps the enjoyment out of it because your body gets used to it. Once or twice a week works better for me.
    • Re: (Score:2, Redundant)

      by PeeAitchPee ( 712652 )
      Thanks for telling me what works best for my body and lifestyle, and what I enjoy.
  • Thank God (Score:5, Funny)

    by brunes69 ( 86786 ) <slashdot@nOSpam.keirstead.org> on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:31AM (#60283168)

    I know when I first assumed legal drinking age, the "Dietary Guidelines for Americans" was a must-read. I used this guide to help me learn how much drinking was appropriate. Now that I'm an adult, like the rest of society, everyone I know uses this guide to dictate their alcohol consumption. So these revisions are very helpful.

    • Personally I learnt the lesson the hard way and used that to stop drinking. I turned 18, wrote myself off with alcohol and then swore to never drink again. I then did repeated the exercise weekly in the name of science because anecdotes is not data, and I needed data.

      Now that I'm an adult I know far better. I realise you can also drink during the week.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:32AM (#60283174)

    This happened in the UK a while back, reducing the recommended weekly maximum to 14 units (about 6 pints) from 27. There was no real scientific evidence for dropping it, and they equalised it for men and women despite the physical differences.

    The result is that everybody ignores it because it's so obviously ludicrously low, especially for the amount that Brits typically drink.

    There is plenty of evidence that the effect of alcohol is not that high up to around 40 units a week, which is 20 weak small American 'Light' pints or 15 proper pints.

    Sure, drinking every day is not good, nor is binging on a regular basis. That's good advice to give.

    Telling your average stressed citizen that they can only have a small glass of wine in the evening, no, it's not going to work. It's counterproductive to reduce the levels as it causes a loss of respect for the advice.

  • So the only reason some people are drinking is that they believe it is good from their health?

    • So the only reason some people are drinking is that they believe it is good from their health?

      I guess that explains Bud Lite.

    • I don't think that's the point, at least I hope. I think the point is just to reinforce the idea of drinking less. Many people don't drink for health, but rather, drink less for health. In other words, if they are going to drink anyway, and you tell them to drink less than 1 per day, they will more than likely drink less than if you tell them to drink less than 2 per day. At least that is the idea. People may restrict their drinking if they are going to drink anyway, but they are unlikely going to incr
    • by pruss ( 246395 )

      There could be such people. I personally dislike the taste of alcohol -- it smells like a cleaning product -- but about a decade back there seemed to be research consensus that moderate consumption of alcohol is good for you, and I was seriously worried that by not drinking alcohol I was shortening my life. I was very seriously thinking of getting a bottle of Everclear, putting it in a hip flask and adding an unnoticeable bit of alcohol to things that I was drinking throughout the day, measured out to add u

  • by Somervillain ( 4719341 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:42AM (#60283212)
    I always thought it was BS to point to moderate drinkers as being healthier. It's classic correlation vs causation. It's like thinking chemotherapy drugs are the cause of cancer because the people taking them all have cancer.

    If you're healthy, you can probably enjoy a drink every once in awhile. You probably socialize more in scenarios where alcohol is served. You probably have less worry and stress in your life. If you're unlucky genetically, you're either taking every step you can to stay healthy, including limiting booze or just dying relatively young...so that by the time people are in their 60s, it's the drinkers that are still around.

    I have never seen anyone improve their healthy by just drinking more. Sure wine has antioxidants, but no more than grapes or many other varieties of fresh fruit. Some of us are just genetically more healthy than others. I know people who do everything right...exercise, diet strictly, etc...and feel and look like crap...they're just unlucky genetically. In contrast, everyone knows someone who lives off pizza and beer and looks great with their shirt off....some can do that into their 40s....all while never having a single health issue. Life is unfair that way.

    The bottom line is alcohol is a poison. Sure, it's fun to drink and in moderation, your body can easily handle it. However, we have yet to find any scenario in which consuming alcohol improves your health....we just know many can consume it and still be healthy. These studies have been going on for a very long time. If alcohol improved your health, we'd know about it. We'd have optimal doses for consumption for various ailments.

    Don't get me wrong, I love booze. I just know I am not doing myself a favor, health-wise, by consuming it.
    • by myth24601 ( 893486 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:32AM (#60283408)

      "The bottom line is alcohol is a poison"

      The cardinal rule of toxicology is "the dose makes the poison" so you can get water poisoning if you drink enough of it.

      • "The bottom line is alcohol is a poison"

        The cardinal rule of toxicology is "the dose makes the poison" so you can get water poisoning if you drink enough of it.

        Eh...that's technically true (it blew my mind when they told me that in school), but misleading. Your body can tolerate extremely small doses of the most deadly poisons, but there are many that have no benefits whatsoever. There's no sense in introducing a poison unless you get a benefit.

        To my knowledge, no one has found a medicinal use for cyanide. Any dosage is either poisonous or so low it's not harmful...same for DDT, radioactive waste, etc. Even if harmless, you never want to consume these. T

        • There's a parallel for alcohol in regards to health.

          That's the part of your claim that is, at best, unproven.

          There are studies showing it has health benefits, that the people in the submission dismiss as "flawed". But they are unable to cite any studies showing the opposite. So you can't just assert "it's a poison!!". You need some proof.

          And this:

          If you've drank before, you know this well...you never feel better the next day

          Is not proof. You got that hangover from binge drinking way more than the "moderate" recommendations. Or you're not keeping yourself hydrated which is a different problem.

          • There's a parallel for alcohol in regards to health.

            That's the part of your claim that is, at best, unproven.

            There are studies showing it has health benefits, that the people in the submission dismiss as "flawed". But they are unable to cite any studies showing the opposite. So you can't just assert "it's a poison!!". You need some proof.

            And this:

            If you've drank before, you know this well...you never feel better the next day

            Is not proof. You got that hangover from binge drinking way more than the "moderate" recommendations. Or you're not keeping yourself hydrated which is a different problem.

            Oh yeah, good point. Most people need more than "moderate" drinking to feel anything the next day. Heck, a lot of people feel better if they have half a glass of wine to help them settle down for a better night's sleep. People really can drink in moderation.

        • To my knowledge, no one has found a medicinal use for cyanide. Any dosage is either poisonous or so low it's not harmful...same for DDT, radioactive waste, etc. Even if harmless, you never want to consume these. There's no benefit. There's a parallel for alcohol in regards to health.

          Consume if you like the taste or like getting buzzed/drunk, but don't fool yourself...you're not making yourself healthier.

          It can clearly enhance reproductive health. Even after my wife and I were married, the drink or two that it took to get me on the dance floor helped our marriage tremendously. She finally understood that it wasn't that I did not love her enough to dance with her, but that I loved her too much to allow her to be seen with me trying to dance.

    • It's like thinking chemotherapy drugs are the cause of cancer because the people taking them all have cancer.

      Oh I'm sure, if you looked hard enough, you'd find some anti-vaxxers who also believe thiat.

    • It's like thinking chemotherapy drugs are the cause of cancer because the people taking them all have cancer.

      Ironically, some chemotherapy drugs are in fact highly carcinogenic. The same goes for radiation therapy.

      Sometimes you just have to accept that risk if the odds of curing your current cancer are higher than the odds of causing a new one.

    • In contrast, everyone knows someone who lives off pizza and beer and looks great with their shirt off

      Well sure. If you're not too picky most women look better with their shirt off. Even the ones who live off pizza and beer.

  • What isn't mentioned, is that for 5%-10% of the adult population, moderate drinking is followed by problem drinking, whether daily heavy drinking or occasional benders that cause
    real problems in their life.

    For 90%-95% of people a couple beers is no big deal. My wife and my mom are in that group. For 5%-10% it ends up destroying your life. My dad and brothers are in that group.

    For most people, COVID doesn't cause major problems. I don't recommend experimenting with covid or alcohol, because you don't know which group you're in until it's too late.

  • by PopeRatzo ( 965947 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:45AM (#60283224) Journal

    Have you seen the state of the world?

    The committee said in a recent conference call that it plans to recommend that men and women who drink limit themselves to a single serving of wine, beer or liquor per day.

    Hell, I have that before 10am. By cocktail hour, I'm crushing up lines of hydroxychloroquine and oxycodone and drinking straight Lysol.

  • by bobstreo ( 1320787 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:45AM (#60283228)

    Seems like a particularly bad time in history to ignore the merits of alcohol.

    And from a historical perspective:

    "the Mayflower shipped more beer than water when it departed for the New World in 1620."

    "alcohol consumption was much higher in the nineteenth century than it is today -- 7.1 US gallons (27 l) of pure alcohol per person per year" Of course if your choice was beer, whisky or cholera from untreated water, I'd stay away from just plain water.

    • by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:32AM (#60283394)

      "the Mayflower shipped more beer than water when it departed for the New World in 1620."

      If you don't boil your liquid and you need it to stay patogen-free, alcohol is pretty much your only choice.
      Beer was healthier because clean water was rare back then and boiling it had not yet moved in as this new fad from arabia.
      Boiling water and drinking coffee and tea instead of alcohol gave rise to the enlightenment and the intellectual sphere as it became a fashion that moved in from the east, far east and arabia.

      Until then alcohol was the only source of patogen-free liquid in Europe. Hence 12% alcohol in "childrens beer" and even more in regular beer.

      • I was under the impression that everyday beer that substituted water was at a much lower ABV. This Wikipedia article mentions low single-digit ABVs ("between 0.5% to 2.8%") as being common:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

        It mentions stronger beer was expensive. Makes sense - You need to use more grain to reach higher ABVs, and grain was comparatively a lot more expensive back then. 12% would have been strictly for partying, or the czar. Besides, if you replaced all your water intake with 12% brew, you'd

    • Seems like a particularly bad time in history to ignore the merits of alcohol.

      I find it amusing that those who are whining they don't have any money because they aren't working are the same ones talking about how much they're drinking since they're not working.

      And from a historical perspective

      Because their water was polluted. Everyone drank alcohol back then.

      Of course if your choice was beer, whisky or cholera from untreated water, I'd stay away from just plain water.

      As I just said
  • The science around this keeps vacillating, drink more, drink less, yada yada.

    In the end what everyone should do, is to do things that agree with your physiology.

    It can't be the case that more, or less drinking is the perfect answer for everyone.

    So see how different things affect you, and do what works for your body, avoiding social pressure to consume anything that you know will be bad without sufficient reward.

    Whichever way you decide to go on drinking will not make a massive difference in the end, so do w

  • by Bethany_Saint ( 5152993 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:54AM (#60283268)

    Clearly this study is meant to tell us we should be smoking weed more often.

  • Unsubscribe (Score:4, Funny)

    by dmomo ( 256005 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:09AM (#60283332)

    I don't need this negativity in my life.

  • Simple (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kokuyo ( 549451 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @11:12AM (#60283344) Journal

    In an ideal world you do not put nerve toxins in your body.

    However, stress is a killer too. So before you go taking Xanax, have a beer instead and see if it helps you chill.

    Do that once or twice a week while the going is rough. Otherwise don't habitually drink. You'll be fine.

  • But would it be worth it if all that time was spend sober?

    This reminds me of the character of the 100 year old in After Life. Living past 80-85 always looks pretty miserable.

  • ... that you're talking about alcohol. Thank you.

    To clarify:
    No, you probably shouldn't drink less.
    You should, however, probably drink less alcohol.
    Especially if you're asking yourself that question it's out of question that you're drinking to much alcohol.

    That the term "drinking" automatically implies for some people "drinking alcohol" pretty much illustrates the problem right there.

    My 2 cents.

  • they're what doctors think they can talk people into doing. For example, you "should" get a couple hours of light exercise a day. Almost nobody can do that, so they recommend 30 minutes 3 times a week.

    Doctor's tried giving out the actual advice of what you "should" do and found it discouraged people so much they gave up and did nothing.
  • You can have a modest amount of drink, if you eat a modest amount, and exercise a modest amount.

    If you eat too much, don't exercise, and your in bad health like most Americans, then quitting drinking alone is not really going solve all those other problems.

  • Maybe the government should sit this one out. They have a poor track record on nutritional advice going back decades plus the FDA, CDC and WHO have too often looked like the three stooges instead of scientific role models during the pandemic.

  • Look, I know that a lot of people like to drink but let's not kid ourselves here. Alcohol is in no way healthy to the human body. Heavy drinking ( more than 4 drinks per day for a man, 3 for women) has been proven, beyond a doubt to lead to the following:

    1) Liver disease
    2) Heart disease
    3) Brain and nervous system functions
    4) Many types of cancer
    5) Gout
    6) Infections
    7) Digestive issues
    8) Sleep issues

    This is according to WebMD.

    What is debatable is whether or not moderate drinking leads to any of these issues.

    • All of the negative things aside, there are no physical benefits to consuming alcohol.

      This is the assertion in the submission that is not actually proven. They claim studies showing benefits are "flawed", but don't cite studies showing moderate drinking is harmful.

      Instead, they, like you, try to conflate it with the problems of heavy drinking.

      In fact, the human liver cannot process alcohol and secretes it which is how cirrhosis of the liver happens.

      Uh, no. The human liver processes alcohol just fine. Problems arise in disposiing of the resulting products in heavy drinkers. But we're still not talking about heavy drinking.

      Your kidneys deal with water consumption just fine....until you drink so

  • Muslims (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anynomous Coward ( 841063 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:06PM (#60283570)

    The western world is seeing more muslims in more influential positions than before. Nothing wrong per se in a representative democracy, although it unavoidably increases the negative sentiment toward alcohol.

    Teetotalers, vegans, climate activists and their ilk are definitely striving to impose lifestyle changes.

    • by Shaitan ( 22585 )

      To which I say, back the hell off and worry about imposing mandates from your religion onto your own life. This is exactly why we have separation of church and state.

    • Nothing wrong per se in a representative democracy, although it unavoidably increases the negative sentiment toward alcohol.

      The negative sentiment toward alcohol has always existed by anyone whose job has been to study alcohol, its affects on society and to make guidelines for governments.

      Muslims? Seriously? You could at least hide your racism a bit.

  • "and that any potential cardiovascular benefits would be outweighed by the fact that alcohol is a leading preventable cause of cancer"

    Cancer doesn't even rate as a cause of death relative to heart disease, particularly for men.

  • Let's face the facts, people: Ethanol is a poison your body works hard to get rid of.
    Scoff at this? Consider this: you drink too much ethanol, what happens? You get very sick. You throw up. You might stop breathing and die. It causes a wide array of damage to every system of your body. It dehydrates the fuck out of you, as your body pulls in water from all over your body trying to rid itself of it. A hangover is the side-effects of the damage it's caused you. Cirrhosis of the liver, if you're a chronic, lo
    • Ethanol is a poison your body works hard to get rid of.
      Scoff at this? Consider this: you drink too much ethanol, what happens? You get very sick. You throw up. You might stop breathing and die.

      You realize I can say exactly the same thing about water, right? You drink too much water, you get very sick, you throw up, and you die.

      You can't conflate consuming very large quantities of a substance with consuming smaller quantities of that substance. Every single vitamin is toxic in large enough doses, yet we die without them.

  • by nightflameauto ( 6607976 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:39PM (#60283728)

    Give me my fifth of whiskey a night and go away.

    That is all.

  • I looked into this a while ago, alcohol seems to be a tradeoff where it increases your risk of cancer with no risk-free dose, but decreases chance of heart attack and stroke at low or perhaps moderate doses. This seems like an unequivocal plus for older people who have cardiovascular issues, but a likely bad trade for someone young and healthy.

    Currently, coronavirus has more people than usual (over)drinking from boredom. But also, coronavirus seems to cause blood clots [cornell.edu].

  • It is, always has been, and always will be.

    If you are not thirsty when other actual real physical indicators (not Coca-Cola FUD) clearly show you need water, something's wrong with your body and you need to see a doc.
    Ditto when you are thirsty but don't need any. (In that case I recommend just consuming less salt/"electrolytes". Will get rid of the sweating too.)

    ----------

    And while we're at it: The way to tell if food is still good, or if food is spieced/fried/baked/etc to the right point, is to SMELL it. T

  • I don't care what the government or lobbyists tell me on this issue. I don't drink alcohol because no matter how it's prepared, it all tastes like shit.

    I mean, aren't our senses of taste and smell supposed to have evolved over billions of years as protection mechanisms? Our taste buds and noses are saying, "THIS IS SHIT! Stop drinking this..." Shouldn't we listen to them?

    If we smell rotten meat, we're repulsed by it. But if we smell alcohol stench, we look for assurances that it's OK to drink X/day. Why?

    If

  • It was easy when I stopped, because I was in hospital after an injury and had a concussion. So drinking wasn't reasonable. Afterwards however did I decide to keep it up and never had another drink. It actually changed my perspective. I used to smoke, too, and had stopped some years before, and I knew it changes one's perspective and I didn't think this would happen with me again, but I was wrong.

    Now ten years in do I feel better, I keep more fit, I've lost weight, I handle stress, grief and sadness better..

  • by TomGreenhaw ( 929233 ) on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:02PM (#60284088)
    I smell a rat with the advice that 1 or 2 servings of alcohol daily is OK or even good for you. Maybe the studies advocating alcohol consumption were biased.

    I decided to monitor my blood sugar even though I do not have diabetes. The device and test strips are not very expensive and there is a history of diabetes in my family.

    When I drink 1 or 2 servings daily for a week my blood sugar goes to 105 to 110 mg/dL after a 12 hour fast. This is the low end of being pre-diabetic.

    If I don't drink for a week, is stabilizes at 85 to 95 which should be fine.

    I'm experimenting with how much I can tolerate, but its looking like I'm bound to become an occasional social drinker only as I age. I love mixing cocktails and making and drinking beer and wine so I'm disappointed but my health is more than important to me.
  • I recall seeing one report on this on TV (60 Minutes, maybe 30 years ago) where they were talking about the French diet (as in, of people in France), the conclusion was that a glass of red wine a few times a week was the only part of it which seemed to promote longevity. Not white wine or other alcohol, not the particular food they ate. Now, red wine is not just wine made from dark-colored grapes, it actually includes the grape skins whereas white wine uses only juice. So most likely it is an antioxidant ef
  • The evidence has been clear for decades; 4 units of alcohol a week slightly improves health. Now look up how many units your beverage is.

    A drink or two a day is unambiguously harmful in numerous ways.

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