Two Hairstylists Who Had Coronavirus Saw 140 Clients. No New Infections Have Been Linked To the Salon, Officials Say (cnn.com) 180
No cases of coronavirus have been linked to two Missouri hairstylists who saw 140 clients last month while symptomatic, county health officials said. Both stylists worked at the same Great Clips location in Springfield. The clients and the stylists all wore face coverings, and the salon had set up other measures such as social distancing of chairs and staggered appointments, the Springfield-Greene County Health Department said last week. From a report: Of the 140 clients and seven co-workers potentially exposed, 46 took tests that came back negative. All the others were quarantined for the duration of the coronavirus incubation period. The 14-day incubation period has now passed with no coronavirus cases linked to the salon beyond the two stylists, county health officials said. During the quarantine, those who did not get tested got a call twice a day from health officials asking whether they had symptoms related to Covid-19, said Kathryn Wall, a spokeswoman for the Springfield-Green County Health Department. "This is exciting news about the value of masking to prevent Covid-19," said Clay Goddard, the county's director of health. "We are studying more closely the details of these exposures, including what types of face coverings were worn and what other precautions were taken to lead to this encouraging result."
Bullet dodged. (Score:2)
But once word spreads, every other hairstylist and small business owner is going to conclude opening is perfectly safe.
Re:Bullet dodged. (Score:5, Insightful)
Reopening is uncharted territory, so it is best to look at the data objectively not let our expectations cloud our judgement. This demonstrates that work and commerce related infections are much less likely than previous thought. It is also in line with changes to WHO guidelines stating that surface based transmission is basically zero. Covid-19 is dangerous, but not in every possible way or to every possible person.
Moreover, a lower infection rate during economic activity is a win for humanity. It means we don't have to trade covid-19 deaths for suicides/drug ODs related to poverty and hopelessness. Let's take the win.
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It means we don't have to trade covid-19 deaths for suicides/drug ODs related to poverty and hopelessness.
But we didn't have to do that in the first place! Functional governments take care of their people. That's their job.
"Lets not address the underlying problems with wealth inequity, this virus won't kill as many people as we thought it would! Back to work all of you! Sucks if you die."
That is a win only if you define winning very narrowly.
Re: Bullet dodged. (Score:2)
The biggest danger of voting for the folks saying, "Government is inefficient, corrupt, and incompetent," is that once elected, they tend to do everything in their power to prove themselves right.
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I don't need any data. I don't care about the data, because I am not a trained epidemiologist. I am not going to sit at home, with all the knowledge that I can get from reading a wikipedia article, and judge what actions are appropriate. I'm just trusting in the advice coming from the expert bodies assembled to advise the government, and doing whatever they say. Right now they say I should be in work, so I'm in work. They say to wear a mask on public transport, so I wear a mask. If they say hair stylists sh
Re: Why is that invalid exactly??? (Score:2)
Oh look at that.. (Score:2)
OBVISOLY it is SOOO infective that if you are in the same room with someone who has a positive test we should use phone tracing to force you to self quarantine for 2 weeks. Too much fear, not enough science.
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Yes thankfully this finally proves that human to human transmission doesn't exist.
We already know R0 is probably somewhere between 2 to 5 under normal circumstances. So considering an average person comes into reasonably close contact with hunderds if not thousands of people throughout the duration of the illness (assuming they take no measures), the probability of infecting any particular person is very small. Yet they only need to infect 2 people to keep it spreading out of control.
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Yes thankfully this finally proves that human to human transmission doesn't exist.
We already know R0 is probably somewhere between 2 to 5 under normal circumstances. So considering an average person comes into reasonably close contact with hunderds if not thousands of people throughout the duration of the illness (assuming they take no measures), the probability of infecting any particular person is very small. Yet they only need to infect 2 people to keep it spreading out of control.
Are you an idiot or just being sarcastic? If human to human transmission doesn't exist, then how the fuck does the virus spread? Fleas? Dogs? Does it infecet airplanes and they their contrails infect humans?
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Are you an idiot or just being sarcastic? If human to human transmission doesn't exist, then how the fuck does the virus spread? Fleas? Dogs? Does it infecet airplanes and they their contrails infect humans?
I am an idiot generally but in this case that was just sarcasm. It can be difficult to tell online, but doesn't the second paragraph that directly contradicts the first make it clear enough?
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Huh! (Score:2)
hairstylists who saw 140 clients last month while symptomatic
WTF! How did that happen, here people with seasonal allergy and asthma live in constant fear of being attacked?
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And YET the CDC and multiple other sources estimate that between 15% and 50% of the people who contract the virus WILL NEVER EVEN KNOW IT! ( emphasis mine). Is anyone else starting to think maybe there was an initial overreaction and now those in charge don't want people to feel that way?
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OTOH, many of those economic harms would go away if we simply paused rent, mortgage, and loan payments for the duration.
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Is anyone else starting to think maybe there was an initial overreaction and now those in charge don't want people to feel that way?
Not really. One can only point to the places where hospital resources were overwhelmed and imagine the horror of having to look on while people are dying without adequate treatment. When it comes to the lock-downs reasonable people knew they were unsustainable.
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Is anyone else starting to think maybe there was an initial overreaction and now those in charge don't want people to feel that way?
Nope. Those of us with basic math skills and a lack of brain damage understand that this means we did an OK job in handling the pandemic.
Unchecked you end up with mass graves in a matter of a month or so. If we didn't end up there for the most part, we get a star. Maybe not a gold star, but at least a silver one.
But you talk like this is over. It is not. Please go read some news out of the southern US. They are rapidly spiraling towards being fucked in a lot of places because they, like you, either lack bas
Cherry-Picked Data (Score:5, Insightful)
Americans need to keep in mind that this is just one case with a lack of transmission. That said, it shows that wearing masks does in fact help. I just fear that most people who see this story come away with the wrong lesson.
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well, a good question is 'how cherry picked'. Obviously if this happened a million times there would be some infections, but nobody knows how many and that is because the science is STILL lacking for people to actually make decision. All of it is 'gut' reactions and much of it is hysteria.
The 'best' data we have , indicates that you are over 65 AND have other complicating factors you have something like a 25% chance of dying. Which is BTW the same as a 75% chance of living.
Re:Cherry-Picked Data (Score:4, Interesting)
you have something like a 25% chance of dying. Which is BTW the same as a 75% chance of living.
Worse odds than Russian Roulette at 83% (using a standard six shot revolver).
Re:Cherry-Picked Data (Score:5, Insightful)
You dumb fuck. There are 50 million Americans over 65. "Sucks to be those 12 million that are going to die!"
Ok, maybe that's a little harsh, because not all 50 million are going to have complicating factors. Oh, except those are the most common ailments in the US, and most prevalent in people over 65. Maybe only half of them will have complicating factors, so we're only looking at 6 million grandparents dying.
6 million deaths is nothing!
But fuck it, lets open back up. If we go to the ballgame and get corona and bring it back to the family picnic, only one of the four grandparents is likely to die. No sense in being hysterical. Can't be helped that grandpa is going to die, Jimmy. We might as well be dead ourselves if we can't go to the ballgame this year.
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There is little doubt the masks help, but that doesn't mean no worries.
A pointy stick has a non-zero chance of convincing a tiger you're not worth the trouble, but I wouldn't advise climbing into the tiger exhibit at the zoo with confidence because you have pointy stick in hand.
Wear masks (Score:5, Informative)
OK, now can people start wearing masks, even the US is better at this than the UK, the UK is an embarrassment. Lack of leadership and lack of rules about wearing masks has lead to only a minority of people wearing masks. 40+ London bus drivers dead from the coronavirus and still you can get on a bus without a mask, it's disgraceful. Meanwhile the man responsible, London major Sadiq Khan goes on about why are BAME contracting the virus more and suffering worse, maybe if the fucking idiot would enforce masks on buses and tubes then a lot less BAME people would be dead now, FML.
And those people not wearing masks didn't seem to care much about social distancing either.
So what's the UK gov't hinting it's going to do? Reduce social distancing. Fucking genius. The R0 has reached 1 in spite of the pathetic gov't we have.
And the Coronavirus could be leading to lung scarring in roughly one third of cases including asymptomatic people: https://www.vox.com/2020/5/8/2... [vox.com]
And people who contract COVID-19 who are vitamin-d deficient are up to 20x more likely to end up in intensive care. The government and the media are being utterly useless about getting their facts straight and getting the most important facts out to people. It's like how the virus spreads isn't important to them because they're so completely obsessed with the economy they can't see anything at all.
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The government and the media are being utterly useless about getting their facts straight and getting the most important facts out to people.
It's actually amazing how bad they are at actually reporting facts.
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It is spread by droplet - coughs and sneezes, even just talking. Droplet and airborne are similar but airborne refers to smaller particles which are small enough to hang in the air, droplet refers to particles which are heavy enough to fall fairly quickly.
Vitamin D is essential to the immune system in all ages, sexes, races. If metabolic syndrome is affected by vitamin D that is just a subset of the things that vitamin D affects. Vitamin D is not limited to 'metabolic syndrome'.
Nothing hilarious about the m
Perfection the enemy of good (Score:5, Insightful)
Is the mask the end-all be all of the pandemic? No, but as we've been learning about the virus seems to say it helps. Even just thinking logically, if breath droplets are a primary vector anything in their way will help.
Just wear the mask if you are indoors.
Was there some waffling early on from the WHO and CDC about masks? Sure. Does that matter today? Nope, not at all.
Wearing a mask inside is literally the least we can all do.
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Does that matter today? Nope, not at all.
What's interesting is how to some people that's all that matters? When talking with my parents, they can't forget that one anecdotal experience from years ago out weighs everything else. Just this last New Years my dad was railing against a government project that he deemed wasteful from the 1980's. So since there was something wasteful from 40 years ago, all government is wasted spending in his mind.
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Was there some waffling early on from the WHO and CDC about masks? Sure. Does that matter today? Nope, not at all.
The waffling was because of human behavior - it can be reasonably demonstrated that wearing a mask, most (newer) users will tend to poke and prod at their face. This is not a good thing as it can basically lead from transmission to surfaces others may touch.
Obviously if the current instruction is to not touch your nose/eyes with your fingers, poking and prodding your face with your fingers is no
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If you think that is a good analogy you might want to check your critical thinking skills.
TSA is about combating human to human violence, a notoriously fickle proposition, and I agree much of TSA is security theater.
Masks are about trying to prevent a particle from causing massive widespread harm. It has no ideology, it has no feelings of self preservation, it has no tactics, it has no motive. It just is.
Fewer than 10% of smokers get lung cancer (Score:2)
In other news, nurses stay healthy too (Score:5, Insightful)
In other news, many thousands of nurses didn't get infected by their many thousands of COVID-19-infected patients in the last three months, because they practiced proper infection control measures.
While I'm happy to hear this news, and it has good PR value, it really only answers the question about masks properly worn by people who also practiced other good infection-control measures, such as not touching their faces, not touching the outside of the mask, wearing the masks properly, keeping their hands properly washed often, and so forth.
I guarantee you, a lot of the people I see "wearing masks" in Walmart with it hanging off their nose, or sloppy loose, or constantly lifting it up to rub their nose, or touching everything in sight and then rubbing their eyes, wouldn't have the same results as these two people who obviously did things right for 140 clients.
Masks are highly effective when worn properly, and even more highly effective when both people are wearing them. We know this from decades of experience.
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>"Wait what? Many thousands of health care workers did contract COVID-19 at a rate higher than the general population."
The healthcare workers were exposed to hundreds or even thousands of times the exposure potential compared to the general population.
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Here in Montreal, masks or no masks, the estimate is that about 20% of health care workers all got infected.
In fact, aside from nursing homes and long term care facilities, most of the cases come from hospitals.
And many of the community spread comes from health care workers.
Aside from the initial 2-3 weeks of lockdown, most of the spread comes from health care.
Asymptomatic transmission (Score:2)
...and WHO just said that asymptomatic transmission is rare.
So why the FUCK did we lock down the entire planet, telling people to hide in their homes, destroy countless businesses, throw our various economies into penury...?
Was this just a giant experiment to give UBI a test run?
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No, since no UBI provided just a single payment below poverty level in USA. Instead large business made out like bandits while most their competition from small and medium business which employs 48% the populace was shut down.
Wuuuuut? (Score:2)
Re:Great pride (Score:5, Interesting)
In your attempt to be snarky you're missing the point: if a hair stylist can see 140 people and none of them have been infected, then the preventative measures in place are working fine and there's no need for massive shutdowns of everything. Keep your distance, wear a mask, and be sensible - and you likely won't get infected.
Re:Great pride (Score:5, Interesting)
In your attempt to be snarky you're missing the point: if a hair stylist can see 140 people and none of them have been infected, then the preventative measures in place are working fine and there's no need for massive shutdowns of everything. Keep your distance, wear a mask, and be sensible - and you likely won't get infected.
On the other hand... hair stylists spend 99% of their time breathing on the back of your head, so maybe this is a specialized case that offers more protections than other interactions. Nail salons, for example, could be much different.
Fluid dynamics ... (Score:4, Insightful)
In your attempt to be snarky you're missing the point: if a hair stylist can see 140 people and none of them have been infected, then the preventative measures in place are working fine and there's no need for massive shutdowns of everything. Keep your distance, wear a mask, and be sensible - and you likely won't get infected.
On the other hand... hair stylists spend 99% of their time breathing on the back of your head, so maybe this is a specialized case that offers more protections than other interactions. Nail salons, for example, could be much different.
On the other hand... hair stylists spend 99% of their time breathing on the back of your head, so maybe this is a specialized case that offers more protections than other interactions.
One, they spend far more than 1% at your side or in front.
Two, fluid dynamics. Breathing at the back of your head just means the exhalation cloud flows around your head to the front where it can be inhaled.
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I think it is likely very few foreigners will see America for the next 20-30 years unless a vaccine is developed.
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Their data are probably largely relying on self-reported behavior, which is notoriously unreliable.
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I have a family member that cannot go out until there are NO infections therefore I cannot go out. That should be the goal. No infections.
I'm sorry for your situation. Afaik the hypothesis is that it took one person to cause all of this and as there's a resonable assumption of animal reservoirs, we might have to live with it until there is a vaccine.
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I think the weak should perish so the strong will thrive.
The thing is that the strength of humans is in social interaction and the support that humans can give others. As a human you are a failure. You are, in other words, one of the weak. Think about it and consider your next actions carefully.
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Until you discover that you're among "the weak." Then it's "Wah wah wah!"
Re:Great pride (Score:4, Insightful)
What this really teaches us, objectively, is that the odds of casual work or commerce-based transmission are much lower than we expected.
This is a good thing. We should enjoy it when humanity gets a win.
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We can guarantee she wont infect anyone in a month.
It has all happened over a month ago.
She had covid, no longer has it. Thus, cannot recontract is and will not under any circumstances be able to infect anyone else.
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Any other medical study posted here with a sample size of 140 would be torn to shreds.
Re:Great pride (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, that is not how it worked either.
Of the 147 possible exposures none of the 46 which were tested returned detectable RT-PCR viral concentrations AT THE TIME THEY WERE TESTED. The other 101 people experienced no symptoms for 14 days BUT WERE NOT TESTED. In other words, it is entirely possible that all 147 people were infected but asymptomatic and that the 46 people who were tested happened to not have sufficient virus present at the time of the test to be detectable to the RT-PCR test.
The only thing that I find really interesting is that y'all could only manage to test 31% of the known exposures.
The other conclusion, that we already know, is that RT-PCR testing is completely non-diagnostic unless you are already sick and SARS-CoV-2 is part of the differential diagnosis, merely for the purpose of confirmation.
Other "viral" infections that are not treated symptomatically (most of them are) require an initial positive by ELISA (high false positive rate because it is fast, cheap, and not very specific), Western Blot (high specificity, low false positive rate), which may then be followed with a quantitative RT-PCR to gauge the depth of the infection.
RT-PCR is a shitty diagnostic test. It is expensive, complicated, very non-specific, and has very high false positive and false negative rates. It is only useful when the diagnosis has already been confirmed by other means.
Re:Great pride (Score:4, Insightful)
the odds of casual work or commerce-based transmission are much lower than we expected.
If people wear masks and take precautions. If not, then expect to get infected.
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What this really teaches us, objectively, is that the odds of casual work or commerce-based transmission are much lower than we expected.
Commerce-based, probably. Work-based, maybe not. There may be a significant difference between 1 hour of exposure at a store and 8 hours of exposure per day.
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Every 141st person would be great compared to what we have.
The infection would disappear quickly.
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we don't want ANY infections
True, but instantaneously zeroing out the infection rate is not a realistic goal. We're trying to bring the infection rate down with reasonable measures so that 1) hospitals will not be overwhelmed and 2) realistic and reasonable safety measures will prevent another mass outbreak. We've seen some evidence (e.g. Japan) that suggests reasonable measures are enough to continually bring the infection rate down, so if your plan is to lock yourself in the basement and shame anyone who isn't below ground with yo
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OTOH, if we had taken more effective measures at the start rather than worrying more about Wall Street than people, we could have been where New Zealand is now, virus free.
Meanwhile, COVID cases are spiking in several states now.
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In general it should be enough to keep the reproduction rate below 1. Then the pandemic will disappear over time.
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"...then the preventative measures in place are working fine and there's no need for massive shutdowns of everything. Keep your distance, wear a mask, and be sensible - and you likely won't get infected."
No such conclusion has been made, nor could there be. Not a controlled experiment, too many unknowns. "Encouraging result" is what was claimed.
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Fucking moron!
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Useful to know [Re:Great pride] (Score:3)
It doesn't matter. She is guaranteed to infect at least one person if left in the workplace...
That assumption is what we believed up until now, but as it turns out, thsy assumption turns out to be based on guesses, not based on data.
From these two data points, looks like at least in some cases, masks work.
Useful to know.
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Alas, people are not required to wear masks here. Last time I went to the grocery store I saw only 2 in 10 were taking the trouble. If the masks are that effective, then this is another example of an easy solution being pissed away by lack of leadership.
But, since this information came from contact tracers, and there's been a steep decline in cooperation with them recently... I wouldn't call this rock-solid data yet.
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In your attempt to be snarky you're missing the point: if a hair stylist can see 140 people and none of them have been infected, then the preventative measures in place are working fine and there's no need for massive shutdowns of everything. Keep your distance, wear a mask, and be sensible - and you likely won't get infected.
You statement is not correct.
They tested only 1/3 of the clients and it's unknown if any of the other 2/3 may have been asymptomatic. Since they quarantined, any possible transmission chain was (hopefully) broken. But you cannot state that "none of them have been infected" because of that untested 2/3.
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It's encouraging, because the worst aspect of COVID is it's extreme contagiousness, and seems to indicate that can be reduced by simple measures. Although, I wonder if the clientele that was exposed skews younger, and so perhaps has a highe
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SARS-CoV-2 is not very non-contagious. Measles are very contagious. The unconstrained transmission rate of SARS-CoV-2 is 2 or 3. The unconstrained transmission rate of Measles is about 30.
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Reality is hard for some people.
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In your attempt to be snarky you're missing the point: if a hair stylist can see 140 people and none of them have been infected, then the preventative measures in place are working fine and there's no need for massive shutdowns of everything. Keep your distance, wear a mask, and be sensible - and you likely won't get infected.
Lots of other replies addressing the testing methods and transmission statistics. But there's a bigger problem: The people screaming to "open up the economy" are the same ones refusing to wear masks, or keep their distance, or take any of the other measures that this example suggests are working.
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Unfortunately, getting people to wear masks is apparently difficult. Worse, in the United States, what should be a simple and basic health precaution has become politicized, with mask wearing being see as something done by the "left. " In May the difference between self-identified Republicans and self-identified Democrats on most COVID issues was small https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-political-is-the-coronavirus-pandemic-already/ [fivethirtyeight.com], but the mask matter seems to be part of a growing divide https://ww [vox.com]
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And yet, there are people on here who regularly post they are not going to wear masks, that they've been having parties and don't give a fuck what any of the experts say. Or then you have these types [go.com].
Your response to them is . . . ?
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In your attempt to be snarky you're missing the point: if a hair stylist can see 140 people and none of them have been infected, then the preventative measures in place are working fine and there's no need for massive shutdowns of everything. Keep your distance, wear a mask, and be sensible - and you likely won't get infected.
That's hardly a surprise. Look at Japan and you see that they never locked down but have a strong culture of mask wearing and have managed to control coronavirus. Compare with Sweden and you'll see that they did informal lockdown without mask wearing and it's been a total disaster. What's really important is that other people wear masks too. It's not good enough for individuals to wear masks. You have to ensure that the parasites that refuse to wear masks are not allowed into areas with people who are wi
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Yes, does 'live free or die' -- new Hampshire state moto . mean anything to you? how about 'Don't tread on me' -- California state moto.
or 'Give me liberty or give me death'? strike a bell? Maybe? freedom is more important then _ANY_ risk necessary to secure it. The fact it was _possible_ for the whole country to be shut down by a few shows a great weakness that has developed in the political system.
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Then why did we get the "Patriot" act?
Department of homeland defense?
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'Don't tread on me' -- California state moto.
The CA state motto is "Eureka" - https://www.library.ca.gov/cal... [ca.gov]
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All of those are pithy slogans designed to be short enough to remember, but which aren't sufficient to explain how to manage a pandemic. You'll note that they also were relative to a foes who were actually human, identifiable, and where dying in opposition to them actually accomplished something.
Dying in opposition to a somewhat preventable pandemic is pretty fucking stupid in comparison.
So far, we've mostly avoided mass graves. (NYC didn't.) We'll see if that continues, however. It is sounding like a lot o
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I thought the fact that hairstylists or anyone is free to infect people was one of the great prides of America? Don't you want your economy going and people to be free?
Well, part of the problem is the difference between theory and practice. In theory, people will act responsibly and self-isolate if they are feeling sick. In practice, some people are too stupid and/or narcissistic to behave responsibly. It's the same pattern we see with other diseases like the flu.
Given that, it is good news that this anecdotally supports the idea that masks (plus whatever other measures Great Clips has implemented) are reasonably effective at preventing transmission. But I expect at least
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Sure, but the real question is , how much risk are you willing to take to secure freedom? Are you willing to put up with other people being stupid and endangering your life, so as to enjoy the same autonomy to make your own decisions , OR will you hand the power to make those decisions over to the local of federal government by demanding "something" must be done. Remember whenever _someone_ is keeping you _safe_ it is not YOU who is deciding what is and is not safe.
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Re: Great pride (Score:2)
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I'll take a risk of less than one in 140 getting a haircut. In fact I did. I got one. I wore a mask and so did the hair cutter person.
I wouldn't have gone if her face was going commando.
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I wouldn't have gone if her face was going commando.
The wording of this phrase brought some unpleasant connotations to my mind - completely unrelated to the COVID-19 stuff.
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I thought the fact that hairstylists or anyone is free to infect people was one of the great prides of America? Don't you want your economy going and people to be free?
More proof that MASKING WORKS. Crashing the economy by shutting everything down does not.
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Lockdowns do work, if done early enough instead of grandstanding on twatter.
Re: Great pride (Score:2)
Re: Great pride (Score:2)
In the earlier days, we had a marked shortage of masks and other PPE to the point that doctors and nurses were wearing makeshift garbage bags and using the same masks during their entire shift. That's why WHO and CDC recommendations suggested no masks for the general public in addition to the relative lack of knowledge regarding SARS-2-CoV.
Now supplies are catching up with demand and we have large scale data regarding the effectiveness of varying strategies. (Japan used masks and did well; Sweden did not an
Re:Great pride (Score:5, Insightful)
Paid sick days are a joke. It's amazing what the left keep proposing. How on earth is it the employer's fault that the employee got sick?
I do assume that this is a troll. If customers of a business get sick because an employer forced their workers to come to work even though they were sick, it may not have been "the employer's fault," that the workers got sick, but it most certainly was the employer's fault if other people got sick because the employer make the sick workers come in. It's their responsibility if they could have prevented it.
Even though it's not their "fault", it makes sense for our society to set up a system so that it is possible for people to not come in to work when they're sick.
Re:Great pride (Score:4, Insightful)
If a business wants my attention, they'll need to negotiate more than a paycheck. Paid vacation, sick leave, family healthcare, eye care, retirement, profit sharing or stock bonuses.
Ultimately I don't want my coworkers come to work when they are sick. And they will if they feel that they have to, like if there is money on the line. People are weird and will risk other people in order to maintain their life style.
Our culture doesn't really grasp the concept of non-heroic personal sacrifice, of putting others before oneself. That doesn't necessarily justify the use of force (through government), I do appreciate the end goal but not the method.
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How does anyone know that it was the hairstylists that gave it those people?
The story is that they didn't give it to anyone.
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At this point the only thing that we have is correlation.
No. We have 140 binomial trials.