Vietnam: How a Country So Close To China Managed To Control COVID-19 (inews.co.uk) 122
New submitter AleRunner writes: Considering Vietnam's proximity to China, where coronavirus was first reported, it might be expected that the Southeast Asian country would be affected by Covid-19 in a similar manner," reports inews.co.uk. "China has more than 84,000 cases of coronavirus and more than 4,600 deaths, according to the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center. Painting a strikingly different picture, Vietnam, which sits below its southern border, has just over 300 cases among its 97 million citizens and not a single death, according to reports."
The article points to a key willingness to "sacrifice short-term economic benefits for the health of the people" which is now paying back in that they plan to "partially resume international flights from June 1." The article then goes on to boost the value of Vietnam's "authoritarian leadership" and "socialist ethos," not mentioning the success of democratic and politically diverse countries like New Zealand, Slovenia, Taiwan and the Czech Republic. Still an interesting thought-provoking read. The report notes that Vietnam suspended flights to and from Wuhan after the first cases were detected. About a week later, the country closed its 870-mile border with China except for essential trade and travel.
"Vietnam quickly ramped up its testing and contact tracing capacity after the virus was initially detected in China, and has been expanding it since," the report adds. "Everyone entering from China was subject to testing and contact tracing." Interestingly, a nationwide lockdown was never implemented. Instead, it relied on testing labs, mass, centralized quarantine programs, and social distancing measures to contain the virus.
The article points to a key willingness to "sacrifice short-term economic benefits for the health of the people" which is now paying back in that they plan to "partially resume international flights from June 1." The article then goes on to boost the value of Vietnam's "authoritarian leadership" and "socialist ethos," not mentioning the success of democratic and politically diverse countries like New Zealand, Slovenia, Taiwan and the Czech Republic. Still an interesting thought-provoking read. The report notes that Vietnam suspended flights to and from Wuhan after the first cases were detected. About a week later, the country closed its 870-mile border with China except for essential trade and travel.
"Vietnam quickly ramped up its testing and contact tracing capacity after the virus was initially detected in China, and has been expanding it since," the report adds. "Everyone entering from China was subject to testing and contact tracing." Interestingly, a nationwide lockdown was never implemented. Instead, it relied on testing labs, mass, centralized quarantine programs, and social distancing measures to contain the virus.
Mao (Score:2)
How? (Score:1)
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Lots of autonomous machines guns on the borders.
Vietnam's borders are relatively open. Several tribes, including the Hmong and Miao, straddle the border between Vietnam, China, and Laos, with family members living on both sides. Some people cross the border to go to work each day.
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Not by those of us who remember that it was America spreading freedom with napalm.
Virus response went further... (Score:5, Informative)
... than what's described in the article.
Every passenger arriving by plane was given a swab test and taken to a government quarantine facility for 14 days. These facilities would be hospitals, or recommandeered university dorms, etc. Nobody was allowed to self-quarantine at home. These people would be fed and monitored for 14 days before they could leave. This gives some more context as to why incoming flights were banned so soon and so quickly.
If a resident in Vietnam tested positive for the virus, the government imposed a quarantine zone that centered on the person's home and extended out to a three-block radius. Residents would be monitored, but nobody was allowed in or out during the quarantine period. Goods were allowed to pass though, I think. Police were deployed to these zones to enforce the quarantine 24/7.
Re:Virus response went further... (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed, my parents got caught in this. On the last day of their holiday a guest staying at their hotel tested positive. The police and pandemic unit came and took everyone, staff and guests alike from the hotel and quarantined them for 14 days. After their second test 14 days later they were released.
Unfortunately in that time Australia had declared mandatory quarantine for arrivals so they were forced to quarantine at home for another 14 days.
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Were your parents infected too? Did anyone get infected beside the guest?
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a country with a not-overly functional medical system
How do you come to that idea?
Most asian countries hav perfectly well working medical systems especially high developed countries like Thailand and Vietnam.
Your "bombing back into the Stone Age" failed.
Police States Have Lots of Options (Score:2)
Most of which don't respect human dignity.
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My friends would gently explain "No, that's not the way the world is" and if I insisted after that, they'd do something like I'm doing now. When folks won't listen to facts, sometimes they do listen to a rant about how fucking stupid they are.
Re: Police States Have Lots of Options (Score:1)
Why must we choose between evil or stupid? Surely there is room for doing better that patriot don't take as a personal insult.
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How about ditching the Doom & Gloom and accepting that life has risks and, oh, BTW, Covid has effective treatments?
That seems pretty down the middle to me.
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Please list the effective treatments that are in wide availability, and then explain the daily deaths from covid and how that intersects with your "effective treatments".
I won't be holding my breath waiting for a reasonable response.
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The only promising treatment that I know of is llama antibodies, everything else is fake news.
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In order to be cured by a treatment, people must first receive the treatment.
FFS, I'm still reading stories about people being put on ventilators, which was found to be contraindicated 2 months ago.
Re: Police States Have Lots of Options (Score:1)
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In order to be cured by a treatment, people must first receive the treatment.
FFS, I'm still reading stories about people being put on ventilators, which was found to be contraindicated 2 months ago.
Nope. Putting them on ventilators at the oxygen levels this is ordinarily done was contraindicated. Maybe. And some point you either put them on a ventilator or they reliably die.
It seems your medical insights are severely lacking and you should keep them to yourself.
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We have effective treatments for Covid now. Please feel free to move to Vietnam and hand in your human dignity anyway.
We do not. Whatever gave you that idea?
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I'm sure your dignity is just as preserved being told to sit in your basement as it is when you sit in your basement voluntarily.
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Must be thinking of America with its 2 million prisoners and no fault police.
In other words (Score:5, Insightful)
Vietnam did everything it was supposed to do to prevent, to the greatest extent possible, the spread of the infection in their country whereas the U.S. did the literal opposite. It did not stop flights from China or Europe (no, not a single flight from China was ever stopped), it didn't test people, it didn't ramp up testing of people or contact tracing, it ignored the warnings of medical experts on the potential spread of the virus in this country, ignored the warnings of medical experts on the lack of PPE, didn't do any social distancing until things were out of control, and most flagrantly, completely dismissed the 69 page book prepared by the previous administration which outlined in detail the steps to take if a pandemic should occur in the country because it was from Obama.
Instead, for two months all we heard was it's no big deal, it's no worse than the flu, it's fully contained, it's only 15 people, the numbers will definitely be going down, we don't need testing, carry on as normal, this is the Democrat's newest hoax. 88,000+ (known) dead later and we're told the only reason we have so many more cases is because we're testing people. If we didn't test as much, the country wouldn't look as bad.
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Re:In other words (Score:4, Interesting)
Are we completely ignoring that the Vietnamese response was outright fascist?
Nope. We're celebrating it. Humans have been shown to be too dumb to handle a pandemic by simply saying "please".
How is it that there is no recognition of the authoritarian fascist nature of Vietnam's response?
Because dead people don't give a fuck if the response was fascist or autonomous.
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You are celebrating...fascism.
Your stating it doesn't make it so. Some of Vietnam's response was authoritarian, but none of the bits which made it successful seem to be. Almost everything imortant Vietnam did
are things that were also done in a proportionate
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Since I just read it, it seems topical to your response, and it’s currently not behind the standard FT paywall... here’s an in-depth look at America’s response.
https://www.ft.com/content/97d... [ft.com]
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Democrat's newest hoax
and also Trump's racist dogwhistle. The USA "chose" do nothing because it can't, it's a collapsing empire.
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If you follow it properly the WHO strategy doesn't require lockdown at all. Instead, when you have a very small number of infections, you trace absolutely every person who could have been infected, quarantine them and test them until you are 100% sure they can't infect anyone else.
The nice thing about this is that, even if the rest of the world fucks up completely, you just do the same strategy more, whenever someone infected comes into your country, you isolate them. If some community isn't willing to i
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If that's your goal, then the optimal solution is to shut everything down. Cease all activity, hunker down in your homes for 21 days.
That is actually not what the successful countries did.
That is what the fail countries did, USA, Germany, France, Italy, Spain etc. p.pp.
The successful countries like Vietnam and e.g. federal states of India did this:
https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
Yes, a bit lengthy to read. But that is how it works when a scientist is a minister and not a stupid lobby bureaucrat.
And now they'll have to reopen (Score:2)
And now they'll have to reopen, since you can't stay closed forever waiting for the vaccine that might never arrive. And if they re-open, and if what we've been told about virus is true (high R0, asymptomatic carriers, long incubation period), they've just postponed the inevitable at a staggering cost to their economy.
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And now they'll have to reopen, since you can't stay closed forever waiting for the vaccine that might never arrive.
Read the article. Vietnam never closed. Their borders, yes. The country, no. This makes a real difference since, when they were doing contact tracing. This means that their cost to the economy will be much less than e.g. a country like Brazil which never had a government shutdown and so ended up in total national panic instead or a country like Sweden which is coping with a massive level of death, ten times that of its neighbours along with all the associated costs.
And if they re-open, and if what we've been told about virus is true (high R0, asymptomatic carriers, long incubation period), they've just postponed the inevitable at a staggering cost to their economy.
As we said, they are already "open" a
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You can't "eliminate" the virus with R0 of almost 3.
You are right, but the R0 depends on how people behave. If they wash their hands repeatedly, wear face masks in the right way, maintain a social distance from each other and limit non-essential travel then R0 is much lower than 3. In London, despite a very dense population, the currently measured R0 is 0.4 (though some estimates are slightly higher at 0.6). This allows virus elimination.
The most important thing is full contact tracing, testing of all potentially infected people and isolation of those wh
You're a retard (Score:1)
Quarantine is by definition a _temporary_ measure. Eventually you have to lift it. Whereupon you're in for another turn on this ride.
Reminder (Score:1, Insightful)
The report notes that Vietnam suspended flights to and from Wuhan after the first cases were detected. About a week later, the country closed its 870-mile border with China except for essential trade and travel.
Wow, I wish we did that here in the USA - oh wait, we did [statesman.com]. And Trump caught a raft of shit for it, for example this. [statnews.com]
Re:Reminder (Score:5, Insightful)
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The difference is that in the USA you shut down travel by Chinese People whilst still allowing flights from China. In Vietnam they shut down flights from China whilst still allowing Chinese people, subject to quarantine, testing and contact tracing. These might seem like trivial differences to you but in real life this is the difference between useless discrimination and effective preventative action.
You are wasting your time. The Trump cheerleaders are not capable of understanding facts on this complexity level.
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Oh, but we didn't. From your source:
Re: Reminder (Score:1)
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Wow, I wish we did that here in the USA
So did these 90,000 people and their families. [worldometers.info]
oh wait, we did
Yea, sure you did.
It's all about tourism (Score:5, Insightful)
New Zealand, Slovenia, Taiwan and the Czech Republic... those countries simply had not much tourists during winter which could bring the virus inside the country.
Italy on the other hand has millions of tourists from all over the world. In winter the Dolomites (in Northern Italy) are a world-class tourist destination for skiers and the place where the virus was spread most. A small valley in the Dolomites, Val Gardena had 49% of the inhabitants infected, as afterwards tests on the presence of IgG and IgM show.
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Good. Don't go there. You're missing out on an incredibly beautiful country with amazingly friendly people who don't hold grudges about one of the worst modern wars in the last gasp of colonialism. You're missing excellent food, wonderful hospitality, an amazing culture and fascinating history.
They probably wouldn't tolerate your ignorant bullshit anyway, so everyone is better off if you don't go.
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Oh clueless one, in New Zealand, it's summer when Europe is in winter.
I came here to post this. Thanks.
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But New Zealand counts by far not as many tourists as Italy.
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I don't know of any apres-ski in New Zealand that were full of people making party in February 2020.
But in Northern Italy, the French Alps, Austria or Switzerland, there were plenty. And there was where the virus was spread.
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I don't know of any apres-ski in New Zealand that were full of people making party in February 2020.
But in Northern Italy, the French Alps, Austria or Switzerland, there were plenty. And there was where the virus was spread.
The main areas of spread in Italy and France seem not to have been in areas related to skiing, although it's possible that's where the infections were picked up before being spread in areas of denser population such as Paris.
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Believe me, I live in a ski-resort. The main areas of spread in Europe were ther ski-resorts. No doubt. Google for "Ischgl" and you will read, that people from Iceland, Germany, The Netherlands and Scandivavia were infected there. Germany has even started a class action(!) against the tourist resort Ischgl because of the many infections
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If you are looking at the likelihood of exposure to a virus, then yes, the amount of time tourists spend in time with the local population would seem to be relevant. If someone is carrying COVID-19 and spend two weeks in Wellington they could potentially infect more people than someone spending a weekend in Milan. The question would be whether people hang around for two weeks in Wellington or Auckland or go off into the wilds of New Zealand, as opposed to all trying to get into the same few historical sites
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No and no. Italy was the first country in Europe closing all flights coming from China.
The first persons in Europe, where Covid-19 was diagnosed in January, were in the French Apls (google for "Briton in French Alps chalet" and in Southern Germany (google for "Webasto patient 1")
The area around Milan was so hardy affected in February, because an ill person went to a hospital in Codogno and infected all workforce there, which in turn infected the patrients. There were lots of death among elder people and the
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Mutations of the first patients with covid showed that their mutations were linked to the ones found in Germany. Not the ones in China. So no, they weren't hit with China's version of the virus which is mainly type B, but mostly ones found in SE Asia and Germany, etc. New York and generally the east coast later would largely get hit mostly with the type C mutation virus found in Europe.
https://www.pnas.org/content/1... [pnas.org]
So basically (Score:2)
They implemented things the U.S. didn't bother to do, or did, but only in a patch-work manner at the state level.
China's numbers... (Score:2)
Are those numbers still accurate? Shouldn't they be much higher?
Almost like... (Score:1)
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From the article you linked:
"The study estimated that 2.49% to 4.16% of people in Santa Clara Country had been infected"
The problem with the antibody tests for COVID-19 is that they have a high false positive rate. Most of the early ones had a false positive rate of up to 5%, the typical ones have 2 % and only one that I have heard of has 0.2%. What that means that in the study, most of the "positive" samples have very likely been false positives. Studies done in worse infected areas like NYC give a better picture.
At the time in NYC 25% of people had antibodies, already more then 20 000 people out
Lots of misinformation about Vietnam here... (Score:2)
As an aside from their virus response; I'm seeing a lot of misinformation about Vietnam in these threads. A lot of people seem to be basing their notions about the country on old chariactures left over from the war, and Hollywood's interpretation of the same.
I went visited the south of country last year; and, when the outbreak is over, I'd recommend anyone else do the same. It's a beautiful country. Saigon and environs is fantastic fun. You'll find most of the modern conveniences of a western city there
Why can't we... (Score:1)
(Because he is a silver-spoon IDIOT!)
If they survived Agent Orange... (Score:1)
Vietnam's actions (Score:1)
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Re:Like we're supposed to accept numbers from comm (Score:4, Insightful)
Sometimes misleading numbers are all you have. The death reporting system in the United States is not designed to give fast answers; a third of deaths take longer than three weeks to make it into national figures.
That said, uncontrolled transmission creates problems that are obvious even without good numeric data, e.g., Ecuador. Even now the officially reported COVID-19 death toll for Ecuador is 2594 since February, in a country where over 1600 people die per week on average. This doesn't square with reliable news reports of people dumping the bodies of family members in the streets because the mortuary system is overwhelmed.
The virus doesn't care about anyone's bullshit. Even China was forced to admit to the world it had a problem, despite it's extreme aversion to appearing vulnerable. While it's possible that Vietnam's numbers aren't as good as they're reporting, there's no evidence of an uncontrolled outbreak like there is in Ecuador.
Like South Korea, Vietnam had a SARS problem and they were much earlier than most other countries in responding, shutting down travel to China 2 weeks before the US did and introducing social distancing five weeks earlier than most US states.
Fighting an epidemic is like fighting a fire. If you respond quickly, it's much simpler.
Re:Like we're supposed to accept numbers from comm (Score:4, Interesting)
Fighting an epidemic is like fighting a fire. If you respond quickly, it's much simpler.
No doubt. Sadly, it's also simpler to contain a spreading infection if a central authority can order and enforce a lock down. This is one of the trade offs for personal freedoms enjoyed in a western-style democracy.... well worth it in my view.
That said, uncontrolled transmission creates problems that are obvious even without good numeric data, e.g., Ecuador. Even now the officially reported COVID-19 death toll for Ecuador is 2594 since February, in a country where over 1600 people die per week on average. This doesn't square with reliable news reports of people dumping the bodies of family members in the streets because the mortuary system is overwhelmed.
Many/most governments seem to have incentives to either over- or under-report Covid-9 infections and deaths. They are as aware of their public relations as the vainest stars of Instagram.
Re:Like we're supposed to accept numbers from comm (Score:5, Interesting)
In the US quarantines are a state function. The main limits on them are 14th Amendment -- equal protection and due process. A state has broad authority to shut things down, as long as it follows its own laws and those laws are not discriminatory.
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I think you will find it is the Federal government that is in charge of international borders, not the States, and when it comes to counting, countries are treated as one entity. Also the Federal government can do advising, at least if the leadership is competent as well as helping a lot with the economics of wide spread quarantines as they have much more borrowing power then the States.
Canada is similar, healthcare is clearly a Provincial matter, the borders are Federal and the Federal government gives gui
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If you reread the summary Vietnam **didn't** declare a lockdown. They're relying on quarantining and contact tracing, and they're doing it right apparently.
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Seems weird to celebrate making someone sick enough that it kills them, but I guess it is like the freedom to shoot anywhere you please or disregard traffic laws, non-existent as freedoms are always limited when it comes to interacting with others.
You also raise the question of whether there was a lock down or whether people just decided to self isolate in Vietnam.
Re: Like we're supposed to accept numbers from com (Score:2)
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I don't see how the death of others is a "well worth it trade off". Petty people whining about a temporary inconvenience to help prevent/delay the spread of a very transmittable virus to help save some lives are very selfish and are part of the tinfoil hat brigad
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I am in favor of temporary inconvenience to prevent/delay the spread of an extremely virulent virus. Yet, the search for complete and utter safety should be logically tempered by the reality that perfect safety is in disaccord with any notion of personal freedom. A balance must be struck that is not in any way fair to every citizen.
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Sadly, it's also simpler to contain a spreading infection if a central authority can order and enforce a lock down. This is one of the trade offs for personal freedoms enjoyed in a western-style democracy
Every country with a functional government has that opportunity.
Or do you think the german government asked for a vote before it shut down the country? Why would they do that? They are the elected government. In Times of crisis they can do what ever is needed to be done as long as it conforms to the constit
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It's really more to do with the will of the people to accept the lockdown than it is the government's will to instigate the restriction on personal freedoms necessary to curtail the spread of the virus.
Government, especially in a democracy, is forever at the mercy of what its citizens will allow... and thank goodness for that.
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Government, especially in a democracy, is forever at the mercy of what its citizens will allow... and thank goodness for that.
No they are not.
Unless you call the next election.
During their rule and the crisis, they can do basically literally what ever they want. And in my opinion rightfully so!
Re: Like we're supposed to accept numbers from com (Score:2)
You didn't even read that article you linked to, did you?
Who the hell is modding up the conspiracy moron? Cut it the fuck out.
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There isn't one single country that is publishing number that isn't publishing misleading numbers. Nobody has a good testing system. Nobody. It doesn't exist in sufficient quantity anywhere.
Lousy individual tests can be good at the population level, but even there corpses aren't being tested.
Also, just because authoritarian countries are usually bad at many things doesn't mean that there aren't some things they are usually good at. They are usually good at controlling citizen behavior and achieving comp
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Nobody has a good testing system. Nobody.
Korea does.
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No, Korea doesn't have a good testing system. It's got a good quarantine system and a good contact tracing system. And I've heard it's got a good set of disinfection procedures. But nobody has a good testing system.
That said, a few systems have been announced this week that claim to be good. Perhaps they are.
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Yes, it has. In _absolute_ numbers Korea has tested the most people in the world. ... get out from under your rock.
Not even all other countries together have more tests
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Most people die of multiple things. Therefore, depending on how you count, most causes of death are under represented. aside from the few situations like auto accidents and suicides where the causes are clear, most of us will probably die with one or more pathogens ravaging our bodies after having our immune systems weakened by cancer, diabetes, smoking, or decades of unhealthy diets.
I am sure that the death counts in non-western countries are lower largely because of the relative threat of COVID-19 being v
Re:Like we're supposed to accept numbers from comm (Score:4, Interesting)
I assume you have some evidence, not just paranoia.
Anyway Vietnam, like South Korea, learned from SARS. That's why they did so well, they were prepared and acted early when they saw the warning signs.
Re: Like we're supposed to accept numbers from com (Score:1)
America is unwilling or unable to learn from others. We always have to do things the hard way.
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America is unwilling or unable to learn from others. We always have to do things the hard way.
While tragic, this seems to be pretty much what is happening. One of the reasons the US is shockingly backwards in many respects compared to some other western countries.
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Aka USA Fan-bois.
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Get over yourself.
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Surprisingly, Vietnam doesn't do much internet censorship. Or, at least, I couldn't see any evidence of it while I was there using the Viettel wireless network, which is owned and operated by the Vietnam ministry of defence.
Now, snooping and spying, that's a whole different story. It's also why I used a VPN back to my home in the US while doing anything remotely important.
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Ignoring that, are we going to celebrate these kinds of authoritarian moves for a modest increase in safety?
Yes. Yes we are. Who are "we" you may ask?
- Doctors and the WHO, who have declared their response best in class in the preservation of life.
- People in the countries where lives are returning to normal faster than they will in the west.
- My mother, who on the last day of her holiday in Vietnam was taken by police and ambulance to a hospital because someone in her hotel tested positive to COVID-19. My parents spent 2 weeks in a Vietnamese hospital despite testing negative. They hated every minute of it. Ther