What Happens After 550 Times the Usual Dose of LSD? (cnn.com) 91
"From the Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs comes three case studies on people who benefited from LSD overdoses including one woman who took a dose of 55 milligrams of pure powdered LSD," writes clovis (Slashdot reader #4,684).
CNN reports: The 49-year-old woman, known as CB, had contracted Lyme disease in her early 20s, which damaged her feet and ankles and left her in "significant pain." In September 2015, she took 55 milligrams of what she believed was cocaine but was actually "pure LSD in powder form." The authors defined a normal recreational dose as 100 micrograms -- equal to 0.1 milligrams. The woman blacked out and vomited frequently for the next 12 hours but reported feeling "pleasantly high" for the 12 hours after that -- still vomiting, but less often. According to her roommate, she sat mostly still in a chair, either with her eyes open or rolled back, occasionally speaking random words. Ten hours later, she was able to hold a conversation and "seemed coherent."
Her foot pain was gone the next day and she stopped using morphine for five days. While the pain returned, she was able to control it with a lower dose of morphine and a microdose of LSD every three days. After more than two years, in January 2018, she stopped using both morphine and LSD and reported no withdrawal symptoms, although the case report said she did experience an increase in anxiety, depression and social withdrawal.
CNN reports: The 49-year-old woman, known as CB, had contracted Lyme disease in her early 20s, which damaged her feet and ankles and left her in "significant pain." In September 2015, she took 55 milligrams of what she believed was cocaine but was actually "pure LSD in powder form." The authors defined a normal recreational dose as 100 micrograms -- equal to 0.1 milligrams. The woman blacked out and vomited frequently for the next 12 hours but reported feeling "pleasantly high" for the 12 hours after that -- still vomiting, but less often. According to her roommate, she sat mostly still in a chair, either with her eyes open or rolled back, occasionally speaking random words. Ten hours later, she was able to hold a conversation and "seemed coherent."
Her foot pain was gone the next day and she stopped using morphine for five days. While the pain returned, she was able to control it with a lower dose of morphine and a microdose of LSD every three days. After more than two years, in January 2018, she stopped using both morphine and LSD and reported no withdrawal symptoms, although the case report said she did experience an increase in anxiety, depression and social withdrawal.
Re: You Get Cured (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
much more than it actually is
Not from what I've heard. Although not life threatening, the symptoms are a PITA. And due to problems diagnosing it, people suffer for years. It needs more visibility if for no other reason than when someone walks in with certain symptoms, the doctors can consider it sooner and get on with treatment.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:You Get Cured (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, just because you can't find the cause doesn't mean it's imaginary, especially where the brain's involved.
I recently had a family member come down with anti-NMDA encephalitis, an autoimmune disease in which the body's defenses attack glutamate neurotransmitter receptors in the brain. As is common with this disease she was mistakenly committed to a psychiatric ward. Just by luck I happen to have worked in public health surveillance of *infectious* encephalitis and I recognized signs that were definitely neurological -- amnesia, vertigo, eye tremor, and fever, so I insisted on a neurological consult and spinal tap. Five days from onset we had her in a Tier 3 neuro ICU taking prednisone and the following week we located the benign (non-cancerous) tumor that triggered the immune response and removed it.
Before the discovery of anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis a little over ten years ago, people who got it were periodically committed to mental hospitals for "psychosis", got spontaneous better after a few months of talk therapy, and then eventually relapsed, repeating this process indefinitely unless they died from an irreversible epileptic seizure. It obviously still happens, because "it's in your mind" is a non-negateable diagnosis.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm glad your family member was successfully treated. Lyme disease however is a bacterial infection that is treated with antibiotics, not psychedelics. Presumably the woman in the article was treated for it 30 years ago. What the poster you responded to may have meant was that Chronic Lyme disease is imaginary, which is a term only used by the alternative medicine industry.
However, post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome is a real thing, manifested by non-specific symptoms such as pain and fatigue. It's typica
Re: (Score:2)
I understand that. My point is that at this point is that using a psychiatric diagnosis (hypochondria or malingering in the case we're discussing) for something you don't understand is fundamentally unscientific, because it's non-negatable. The way the DSM is set up is there's always a psychiatric diagnosis for anyone with *any* psychiatric symptom, if you're willing to ignore potentially neurological symptoms like unexplained pain, or in our case vertigo.
My family member had exactly one psychiatric sympt
Re: (Score:2)
This one is more complicated than that. In the sense that for a number of people symptoms continue unabated after they are "cured" of lyme disease, alternative medicine wasn't wrong. They acknowledged this before conventional medicine did. In the sense that "chronic lyme disease" implies that the bacterium is still active in the patient, alternative medicine is apparently wrong (though some MDs have tried long term treatment, so there are genuine questions).
A lot of this seems related to the phenomenon of p
Re: (Score:2)
This one is more complicated than that. In the sense that for a number of people symptoms continue unabated after they are "cured" of lyme disease, alternative medicine wasn't wrong. They acknowledged this before conventional medicine did.
It seems that you're implying that conventional medicine didn't acknowledge patients' symptoms as real, or didn't try to help, until it had a formal label. If so, I don't think this was the case.
In the sense that "chronic lyme disease" implies that the bacterium is still active in the patient, alternative medicine is apparently wrong (though some MDs have tried long term treatment, so there are genuine questions).
Long-term antibiotics against Lyme disease has been studied, and shown ineffective and dangerous. Quoting Association of Medical Microbiology and Infectious Disease Canada [www.ammi.ca]:
Re: (Score:2)
hey! posted well over 7 words.
My comments on ketamine were as related to wind-up. googling "ketamine pain wind-up" will yield way too many links to post here. It's efficacy in wind-up is not controversial. Also not controversial is that chronic pain is a feature of PTLDS. Given that, it's not much of a leap to consider that ketamine might be at least a useful treatment. LSD, of course is poorly studied since most research got shut down and effectively perma-banned before rigorous studies could be done. It's
Re: (Score:2)
hey! posted well over 7 words.
My mistake. I thought GP was the AC posting "You Get Cured [...] Of an imaginary disease?"
Thanks for the google tip and discussion.
Re: (Score:3)
It's more complicated than that [wikipedia.org]. Lyme disease is a real disease caused by tick bite infections, and is treated with antibiotics. But considering she had it 30 years ago, and probably got it treated, she may be suffering from post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome, which manifests in non-specific symptoms such as pain and fatigue.
What is imaginary however is Chronic Lyme disease; a label for non-specific symptoms that cannot be diagnosed by scientific evidence, and is only used by alternative medicine charlata
Re: (Score:2)
What is imaginary however is Chronic Lyme disease; a label for non-specific symptoms that cannot be diagnosed by scientific evidence, and is only used by alternative medicine charlatans and their marks.
You are an idiot.
People who get Lyme usually have it for ever,
The reasons are unknown and it has most certainly nothing to do with "alternative medicine charlatans".
I know no one who had/has lime desease and ever was cured.
Re: (Score:2)
this is not true.
It is caused by an infection with Borrelia bacteria. They are susceptible to common antibiotics. Even amoxicillin will kill it.
It is sometimes missed or misdiagnosed - but there is an entire industry of charlatans who have invented a non-specific syndrome that requires lifetime treatments. This syndrome is a close cousin of the 90's Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
For those who are not up on the topic, don't listen to internet testimonials on this sort of subject. There have been clinical tria
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Everyone I know, luckily only 3, has lyme desease for ever ...
Re: (Score:2)
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. [cdc.gov]
"People treated with appropriate antibiotics in the early stages of Lyme disease usually recover rapidly and completely."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Chronic Lyme disease is NOT imaginary, it is just a mis-characterization of post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome. The idea of Chronic Lyme disease pre-dates the acknowledgement of post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome.
Re: (Score:2)
Units! (Score:2, Interesting)
Something doesn't add up here.
> she took 55 milligrams of what she believed was cocaine but was actually "pure LSD in powder form."
> The authors defined a normal recreational dose as 100 micrograms -- equal to 0.1 milligrams
> The authors note in the study that no lethal doses of LSD have been documented, although they said scientists have estimated that a lethal dose in humans would be 14,000 mcg.
Apparently, she had 4 times the 'would be lethal dose'.
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't take the "estimated lethal dose" too seriously, as I don't think it's ever been validated. This case, if accurate, would seem to prove that it was seriously lowballed.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe.
> the woman blacked out and vomited frequently for the next 12 hours but reported feeling "pleasantly high" for the 12 hours after that -- still vomiting
Re: (Score:1)
But not likely. d-LSD stimulates the release of serotonin while also inhibiting the re-uptake of serotonin from the synapse. The stimulation and re-uptake inhibition are dosage dependent. About 5 milligrams causes the maximum effect. Beyond this dosage, there is no effect. Serotonin depletion will occur in 6 to 12 hours independent of dosage. After depletion it takes several days for sufficient reserves to be synthesized by the body for a subsequent dose (of any size) of d-LSD to have any effect whats
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Nice try (Score:3)
You don't. People are idiots and just can't let go of that old urban legend about strychnine.
Nevermind the Strichnine!
That much LSD-25 should have put her well into Seritonin Syndrome; which is absolutely no fun at all, and could even be fatal.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/dis... [mayoclinic.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
For all we know it was the crud from the side of the beaker after they finished making the LSD, full of impurities.
Which begs the question of how much LSD did she ACTUALLY take.
Re: (Score:2)
Blacking out and vomiting are a long way away from death.
Re: (Score:2)
The authors note in the study that no lethal doses of LSD have been documented,
The CIA has a tendency to ignore peer review as well as pay experts to lie.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
Timothy Leary, a psychologist who attained cult-like popularity in the 1960's, strongly advocated psychedelic drugs. His work lacked scientific rigor: the LSD available was often "kitchen chemistry" quality. I'll admit that my college dormitory had issues with people making and selling it. I did know someone who died from LSD, but the death involved involved going swimming at a party with people too stoned to stop them.
Leary and his colleague, Professor Alpert, were fired for many reasons, including not sh
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
In the 1980s he was saying that with computers and VR you will no longer need to take drugs to choose your own experience, you'll be able to select one with more precision.
He also warned strongly about the need to control the content of screens that you look at. In a way he's sort a spiritual guide for me, but not in the ways that people normally think of him; in my practice at ad-blocking, and limiting passive video consumption.
Re:Units! (Score:4, Interesting)
awwshit noted:
Something doesn't add up here.
> she took 55 milligrams of what she believed was cocaine but was actually "pure LSD in powder form."
> The authors defined a normal recreational dose as 100 micrograms -- equal to 0.1 milligrams
> The authors note in the study that no lethal doses of LSD have been documented, although they said scientists have estimated that a lethal dose in humans would be 14,000 mcg.
Apparently, she had 4 times the 'would be lethal dose'.
First of all, a 100 ug dose is insufficient for a psychedelic experience. It'll get you high, yes, but you'll get some mild colorization of white surfaces and a little shifting of textured surfaces, at most. However, you won't get anything close to the full ride, à la the Harvard elites at Timothy Leary's Milford, Connecticutt farm or Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters and their Acid Tests. For that, you need a minimum of 300-400 ug.
I don't do acid any more, but, back in the day, I took as much as 1250 ug of high-purity LSD in a single yellow microdot. Believe me when I tell you that 100 ug isn't even in the same universe as THAT experience.
The un-named "experts" in TFA were obviously guessing at how much constitutes a lethal dose. Apparently, though, by inadvertent in vivo experiment, 55,000,000 ug isn't enough, so that shows you what their estimates are worth ...
Re:Units! (Score:4, Insightful)
The un-named "experts" in TFA were obviously guessing at how much constitutes a lethal dose. Apparently, though, by inadvertent in vivo experiment, 55,000,000 ug isn't enough, so that shows you what their estimates are worth ...
Drawing conclusions based on one data point is... let's be kind and say "unwise".
Re:Units! (Score:4, Insightful)
As is trying to define a lethal amount of something that nobody has died of yet. We don't know.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry,
you are mistaken.
LSD already works in the 1Âg to 2Âg range. The actual dose is close to irrelevant for going "onto a trip".
Apparently, though, by inadvertent in vivo experiment, 55,000,000 ug isn't enough, so that shows you what their estimates are worth ... ...
There is no known lethal dose for it, I assume you could die if you eat a pound of it as powder and your digestic system can not handle it. But I also assume if the dose gets into the grams range, you never return from your trip
Re: (Score:2)
considering its simply a trigger compound for your brain to release another chemical, I doubt there really can be a lethal dose.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Units! (Score:4, Informative)
thats not how LSD works. LSD is a trigger compound for your brain to release another chemical that then induces the effects. Thats why you cannot trip two days in a row. You have already used up everything and have to rebuild the supply. There is a book written quite a long time ago by Timothy Leary that talked about quite a bit of this. I really don't think there is a lethal dose. I think beyond a specific dose, its all just wasted.
Re: (Score:2)
That is very far from the truth. The majority of its effects come from serotonin (5-HT) agonism, not neurotransmitter release.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]
"LSD acts as a 5âHT autoreceptor agonist on 5âHT1A receptors in the LC, the RN, and the cortex. It inhibits firing and serotonin release of these cells. It also acts as a partial agonist on the postsynaptic 5âHT1A site. LSD has high affinity for other 5âHT1 subtypes 5âHT1B, 5âHT1D, and 5âHT1E. Effects of LSD on 5
Re: (Score:2)
The important thing is that she had a dose large enough that would make hippies who were around in the 60's and ravers who were around in the 90's alike say "No-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no!" if offered the same. It's basically a given that it was mixed with something reasonably inactive like starch or powdered sugar to make it much, much easier to measure. With the middle of the effectiveness curve being somewhere between 100 and 250 micrograms (roughly between two and five grains of sand--no joke) it needs
Re: (Score:1)
She DID die. You are dead, too! Can't you tell?!
Re: (Score:1)
> The authors note in the study that no lethal doses of LSD have been documented
There is record of a lethal dose of LSD. It was administered to a female elephant in a bizarre attempt to induce rut. I don't recall the g per Kg of body mass, but it was rather high as I recall. The elephant appeared fine for a while and then keeled over dead according to the account I read in what I recall was a chemistry journal back in the seventies. The article could have been published in the sixties. I haven't man
Re: (Score:2)
I Seem to Recall (Score:2)
Hilarious (Score:2)
It's hilarious how apologetic the article is. After every line you can almost hear the chant "But it's still bayted MmmmmmKaaaaay!" as if sweatles were breaking out on the author's forehead wondering if she should secure wipe TFA and just write that now they have 3 eyes and think they're a giant glass of orange juice.
Re: (Score:2)
Would you have the same reaction if this was about someone consuming cyanide and surviving?
Re: (Score:2)
With cyanide we know for a fact that it is bad for your health.
Re: (Score:2)
Since unlike LSD, cyanide has been known to kill people it wouldn't have been as funny. but I might have found the warnings excessive
Of course there would also be more astonishment since also unlike LSD, cyanide has never shown signs that it might have beneficial effects on anyone.
With friends like these... (Score:1)
"Should we call someone?"
"Nah, it'll be fine."
Drug friends are the best.
Re: (Score:2)
"It'll work itself out. Don't worry, my dude."
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re: nobody likes a celebrity. (Score:2)
Summary is incomplete (Score:3)
The summary omits important details: Some time after the incident, due to increasingly erratic behavior, she was kicked out of Pink Floyd. Her subsequent abortive solo career was soon abandoned. Since then, she has been living in seclusion outside the city, supported by the royalty checks she still regularly receives.
Re: (Score:2)
Voted funny, however in reality, the story was that they noticed LSD's effects were *similar* to schizophrenia symptoms, so the theory came about that LSD cause schizophrenia. They never actually got around to proving any connection.
The only connections we have are observational: Guy X took LSD then was diagnosed with schizophrenia. This is about as convincing as the thing with immunizations and autism. Schizophrenia usually onsets from late teens to early 20s. Drug experimentation also peaks around late te
Re: (Score:2)
There probably are not enough data points for such a study. That is, the number of cases where people who took acid and later developed schizophrenia is so vanishingly small that it's not enough for good statistics in a comparative study, were one to be done.
It's all anecdotes reported by the press, and given a little 'extra' push by the CIA to keep it in the news (in the past, during MK-ULTRA). These types of reports sold papers. The result for society, though, is that we are weighted with an unnecessary u
Re: (Score:2)
It, along with a few urban legends and claims of chromosome breaks are basically "Reefer Madness 2: this time it's on a blotter".
Re: (Score:2)
How about 130k data points?
https://journals.sagepub.com/d... [sagepub.com]
Easy access to drugs (Score:2)
This woman took a large amount of LSD, and then took morphine, and thought the LSD was cocaine.
Clearly she has access to all kinds of very very potent drugs, and has no compunctions about using them even when she's confused "oh sorry! I thought all that acid was really coke." ...and someone wants to trust her measurements to the milligram???!!!??? ...and her "roommate" watched her vomit and sit in a chair for 12 hours? What was the roommate doing?
JSAD claims to be a "peer-reviewed scientific journal"... w
Re: (Score:2)
JSAD claims to be a "peer-reviewed scientific journal"... which "peer" exactly let this get through as "scientific"?
A lot of medical journals have a section for case studies. It's a place where doctors submit weird things they see, in case anyone else sees something similar. To raise the awareness of the community that something interesting might (or probably not) be going on here.
I would expect such reports to be especially important in the drug research field, since double-blind studies are illegal and often unethical.
You Get John McAfee (Score:3)
No, really. Fact check me on the details, but he says he took something like 20,000 doses and checked out for about two years.
He's not average today, that's for sure.
Re: (Score:2)
No more drugs for her. (Score:2)
Considering the per-miligram price of LSD, I imagine her dealer was very unhappy to discover his mistake. As will be her dealer's boss. Probably no drugs until she finds a new dealer now.
Re: (Score:2)
The wholesale price of street drugs can be hugely lower than the end-user (street) price – certainly at the level that this woman had access to.
What happened.... (Score:2)
was an 'oh shit' moment when she realized she wasted 54.7mg that would have been effective for about 164 more catalytic reactions [doses]. Otherwise, she tripped as normal.
What a waste (Score:3)
200 people could have gotten high on that!
Re: (Score:2)
ikr? Damn one percenters hogging all the good stuff.
Re: (Score:2)
Isn't there a mandatory sentence (Score:2)
of 20 years for possession (?) / distribution (?) of LSD? Or has that gone away (or maybe never existed)?
Re: (Score:2)
Halicigens have a currative effect onopiate addict (Score:1)
The increase in anxiety and such is withdrawal (Score:2)
from her not using cocaine anymore.
LSD worked for Francis Crick and Kary Mullis (Score:2)
No side effects (Score:2)