People Are Killing Puppy Clones That Don't Come Out 'Perfect' (medium.com) 248
An anonymous reader shares a months-old report, which is getting some attention this week: Many clones are born with defects and genetic disorders, and since those imperfections aren't what their buyer is spending tens of thousands of dollars on, they end up discarded. That's the price. Neonatal complications for cloned animals abound: Poor placenta and fetal development in the womb lead to high rates of early- and late-stage abortions. Once born, those first few weeks remain tenuous: Incidences of large offspring syndrome (which usually results in a cesarian section) are high as are pneumonia and respiratory distress syndrome in cloned lambs and cows, which indicates poor adrenal gland and lung function.
And if that cloned dog does make it through the gauntlet -- but is missing the spot over its eye that a deceased pet had, for instance -- it still faces a swift death via euthanasia, just another pile of genetic material to harvest. "There's too many mistakes, too many stillbirths, deformities, and mutations," warns Chris Cauble, a Glendale, California, veterinarian whose mobile service offers tissue collection for cloning pets. Despite being involved in the industry, Cauble wouldn't clone his own pets. "I'd hate to see one of my beloved dogs born with three eyes or without a leg. I'd feel like I created a monster. There are a lot of failures, and those are killed because they're not perfect. They keep trying until they get a good puppy. Consumers have to realize the procedure is not fully perfected."
And if that cloned dog does make it through the gauntlet -- but is missing the spot over its eye that a deceased pet had, for instance -- it still faces a swift death via euthanasia, just another pile of genetic material to harvest. "There's too many mistakes, too many stillbirths, deformities, and mutations," warns Chris Cauble, a Glendale, California, veterinarian whose mobile service offers tissue collection for cloning pets. Despite being involved in the industry, Cauble wouldn't clone his own pets. "I'd hate to see one of my beloved dogs born with three eyes or without a leg. I'd feel like I created a monster. There are a lot of failures, and those are killed because they're not perfect. They keep trying until they get a good puppy. Consumers have to realize the procedure is not fully perfected."
Nothing new (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
"I'd hate to see one of my beloved dogs born with three eyes or without a leg. I'd feel like I created a monster. There are a lot of failures, and those are killed because they're not perfect. They keep trying until they get a good puppy. Consumers have to realize the procedure is not fully perfected."
I wonder how clear this is made in the fancy sales brochure?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Sarah McLachlan (Score:5, Funny)
Re:inteligent design (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder how many races God had to kill before he got it right?
You think he got it right?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder how many races God had to kill before he got it right?
You think he got it right?
Puppies? Yes.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, judging from the current abysmally bad "design", God, if such an entity exists which is highly doubtful, is a complete fuckup or exceptionally malicious. No halfway competent and self-respecting designer would ever deliver something this bad. As Gorge Charlin put it: "This is not good work. This is the work you expect from a temp with a bad attitude."
Beta version runs, some bugs [Re:inteligent design (Score:5, Funny)
Well, judging from the current abysmally bad "design", God, if such an entity exists which is highly doubtful, is a complete fuckup or exceptionally malicious. No halfway competent and self-respecting designer would ever deliver something this bad.
Hey, give the guy a break. This was an insanely hard project-- the human genome is 3 billion lines of code, and written in a proprietary assembly language with no manual. And if the publicity is correct, the designer slammed that out in a single epic six-day coding session. OK, the beta release has some flaws from the user perspective, but considering how complicated it is, it's amazing it runs at all.
I'm sure that the problems will get addressed when the designer comes out with the 2.0 release.
Re:Beta version runs, some bugs [Re:inteligent des (Score:4, Funny)
So he worked for Atari before holiday season?
Re:Beta version runs, some bugs [Re:inteligent des (Score:5, Funny)
Well, according to the manual, the initial release was designed to run in a walled garden, and most of the problems come from downloading malware via an Apple interface that was not approved.
Re:Beta version runs, some bugs [Re:inteligent des (Score:5, Funny)
Re: inteligent design (Score:2)
Gorge Charlin is where we exile people with no sense of humor who nitpick.
In other words: git!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It was the first world-wide recall.
Re: (Score:2)
how many races God had to kill before he got it right?
What makes you think He thinks He's got it right?
Not just puppies (Score:4, Insightful)
Not just puppies. A large percentage of abortions worldwide (perhaps still the majority) are still done to ensure male children. It's not nearly so bad as it was during China's one child policy, but it's still bad.
But people actually feel sorry for puppies, so that's what we're talking about, I guess.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Every sperm is *great*. You broke the rhyme.
Re: (Score:2)
Is a sperm wasted if it is swallowed?
Re: (Score:2)
At least I understood the difference between abortion and infanticide.
Re: (Score:2)
At least I understood the difference between abortion and infanticide.
For sex selection in the third world, you get both.
Also, assuming that there's a moral difference between abortion and infanticide is just refusing to consider the actual moral issue at stake. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but if you think the answer is easy, you haven't thought about it much, or deeply.
Re: (Score:3)
For sex selection in the third world, you get both.
yes, you do.
It still doesn't explain why you tried to shoehorn in abortion and try to equate it with killing actual live puppies.
Also, assuming that there's a moral difference between abortion and infanticide is just refusing to consider the actual moral issue at stake. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but if you think the answer is easy, you haven't thought about it much, or deeply.
Of course there is a moral difference between aborting a few cells and killing a child.
Re: (Score:2)
Bad call. Video replay shows no movement.
The topic at hand was abortion vs infanticide. Is there a moral difference?
Clearly there is in at least once case.
Still, the way you phrased that, does that mean once the fetus grows beyond "a few cells", it no longer counts as "abortion" to you, it becomes "infanticide"? If so, then perhaps the problem isn't that you are moving goal posts,
Well technically it counts as abortion unless there was actually a birth.
Clearly there is a difference morally between the stages of development of the fetus, and also whether the abortion was intentional or not.
Of course I phrased it that way, so as to not get bogged down in the details you are now getting me bogged down in. None of which is relevant
Re: (Score:3)
How are you "aborting a few cells" for sex selection?
The same way I'm killing puppies.
i.e. I'm not, I'm sitting here typing.
You have to wait until it's an unborn child to determine that.
You will have to define what an unborn child is first.
You are most likely wrong anyway, since chromosomes are a thing now.
Re: (Score:3)
Is 40+ too late for an abortion?
Re: Not just puppies (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
No, fertilized ovum is what you were aiming for.
No, I think I'd know if I was trying to get someone pregnant. I definitely wasn't.
Re: (Score:3)
Killing living human babies is, in fact, illegal in most of the world. In some places in the US, because god lunatics reign supreme, it's even being made more illegaler [kvue.com]. That's what we're talking about, not abortions.
Euthanizing unwanted, living, animals is not only legal, but institutionalized. While I can't justify this as a moral dilemma that threatens to tear apart society, it seems barbaric to create animals and destroy them for no really compelling reason.
I am assuming puppy abortions are not done b
Re: (Score:2)
Curious, I looked this up, and you're partially right, it is legal in parts of Europe to some degree (but not in the US, that's still utter religious loony bullshit): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Although I don't disagree with the European position, given that we're talking about some pretty wretched cases. Again, not a pervasive moral dilemma assuming you aren't full of religious disorder.
Still, there is not even a slight comparison to a terminal infant in pain being euthanized to a healthy puppy that
Re: (Score:2)
But secondly, this piece is not only going over cloning (which is not done with humans), but also killing well after birth, something again is not being done with humans, at least in 1st world nations (infanticide is a real issue in some regions).
But regardless, issues are not mutually exclusive. Do you really belie
Re: (Score:2)
In reality, life is cheap.
Re: (Score:3)
Maybe. It sure is convenient to believe that, isn't it? "Make all sorts of nasty moral question vanish with one simple belief, click here to learn more!" But maybe we should be suspicious of easy answers to hard questions, just as a general rule in life?
Also, in some parts of the world, it's both abortion and infanticide for sex selection. Still seems like an ethical issue worth further discussion. But, hey, puppies!
Re: (Score:2)
How is abortion different? Please do tell the difference between a baby that is 9 months into gestation and the one that just exited the birth canal. If you do agree with me that there is no difference between birthdate - 1 day and birthdate + 1 day, how far do you want to move back into the gestation period before you disagree? Is it at point of viability (which is now as early as 4 months and moving back)? Is it at conception? I'm sure second and third trimester abortions are not okay with you right?
Re: (Score:2)
First, I do think they are morally the same, e.g. bad.
I do say that the name is different though if it has a negative age or positive age(birth = 0).
Aborting a -1day old is called abortion though.
If it is like 1 week, cue song, or -39 old weeks then it isn't bad; it's just a bunch of cells, though opinion on that may vary as well.
I also don't call a fetus a baby no matter how developed it is, even if viable or whatever state.
As to how far back I don't know but I do agree with what I wrote above.
To summarize
Re: (Score:2)
Ones legally a human being and ones legally part of a woman. Being part of a woman, it is between her Doctor (the medical association likely has guidelines as well) and her whether a medical procedure should be done.
There's lots of medical procedures a Doctor won't do such as cutting off a healthy leg even though legal.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm not sure that is legally and definitely not biologically and medically established. It is IN you but it isn't PART of you.
From a legal perspective: You would give a woman the right to cut off eg. a penis or finger during (totally consensual) copulation. Or you'd be able to legally own any medical device or other object that you or someone else ever inserts, permanently or temporarily anywhere in your body. How about information that passes through you (if I beam a movie stream through you, do you now le
Re: (Score:2)
Is it at point of viability (which is now as early as 4 months and moving back)?
Viable, sure, as long as you're willing to pay the costs for the life-long health issues that will result.
Re: (Score:2)
For once, I completely agree. There is a reason abortion is allowed (where it is allowed) up to a certain development stage only.
Re: (Score:2)
This is completely a different situation. Abortions are different from killing a developed birthed organism.
Clearly you don't know how things work in China. https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/sto... [go.com]
Re: (Score:2)
More proof that all Chinese are morally bankrupt.
Re: (Score:2)
Categorizing an entire group of people this way is itself a sign of moral bankruptcy. Glass houses, my friend.
Re: (Score:2)
This is completely a different situation. Abortions are different from killing a developed birthed organism.
Yes, aborting a human is morally worse than killing a birthed puppy because people > animals.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A fully birthed puppy has more brain than a fetus, so at that stage of development, puppy > blob of cells.
That line of thought would conclude that killing an adult is worse than killing a child, because adults have more formed brains. If that thought is not repugnant to you, then there is really no common ground here from which to continue.
People have more worth than animals (far more). A miscarried child is a greater loss than a puppy being euthanized.
Re: (Score:2)
I've got news for you, Humans are an animal.
Trump (Score:5, Funny)
Apparently there are efforts to clone Trump and since they are new individuals they can run for President over and over again. It is true. Read it on Youtube.
Re:Trump (Score:5, Funny)
Read it on Youtube.
You're doing it wrong.
Re:Trump (Score:5, Funny)
Are you sure this has not happened already? I think we have one of the defectives in office now...
Re: (Score:2)
The Donald Trump in the White House *was* the spare. Fred Trump Jr. had been groomed to inherit the family business but when he rebelled, Fred Sr. turned to Donald. That's something that has had a profound impact on Donald Trump, for good and bad.
for dogs outrage (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
The anti-abortion protester is every bit as hysteric and irrational as the animal rights protester.
Re: (Score:2)
Depends on the animal rights protester. Some go way too far, others just want animals treated well and killed humanely.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm against the whole cloning thing to begin with. There's no way a clone will ever be just like your lost pet. Behavioral traits rely on a combination between genetic and environmental.. any study on identical twins would show that. It's easy to separate a fool from his money.
Re: (Score:2)
So, if you want to end your own life, you're not allowed to have a doctor kill you? Sounds reasonable.
If you want to end your own life, then end it. Not at all the same as "get someone else to end it for you". Though you can probably hire someone to murder you, if you really want to.
Admittedly, in my own case, ending my own life is relatively straightforward - get in my car, drive till it's out
A not-PC comment (Score:2, Flamebait)
Pets are ones without choice here. Not original ones, not successful and of course not unsuccessful clones.
People claim love for them when they only care about themselves. It is people who are hurt when a pet dies, and with lifetimes order of magnitude shorter, that is a natural thing to happen. When this happen - then they abuse many other animals just to keep themselves happy.
Pets are no more than slaves. And people, ready to discuss preservation of the habitat of this frog or that snail - they just keep
Re: A not-PC comment (Score:5, Interesting)
I find puppy mills and cloning pets abhorrent. It devalues the animal to a commodity.
Re: (Score:2)
Depends on the animal. Some of them do very well in captivity. Others not so much.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
(As I expected, my original post is downgraded. PC police at hard work.)
And for "well in captivity". There are various kinds of captivity. Even humans have problems adapting to modern urban environments, and then they put a dog there? Most captive dogs spend most of their lifetime being walked around a single block, on a leash! 2, 3 or 4 times on fresh air per day!?
For 10000 minus 50 years dogs were bred to share big open spaces with people. They were not bred for 10000 years to live in apartments and get f
Re: (Score:2)
Dogs have been bread with a lot of their natural wolf instincts are gone or suppressed.
Much like how we have been evolved to like the taste of sweet plants, and will eat sweets even at the risk of our general health.
Dogs have been bread to like humans, their companionship, and bond with humans.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Not really. There is an element of free choice with people - absent in pet's positions.
Same thing will happen with human babies (Score:3)
Hell it's already common in China, even without cloning.
RePet (Score:2)
Anyone reminded of Arnold's "6th Day" movie? RePet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Why are people cloning? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The cloning companies are businesses. They aren't going to be able to sell the clones if the person who ordered it doesn't want it. That is why they kill them.
Evil (Score:3)
Dog owners ... (Score:2)
People suck (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously, to have such disregard for life as to consider it something to just throw away if its inconvenient.
Re: People suck (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you have functioning immune system? Then you have killed mercilessly billions of organisms already...
Snowball III meet Snowball IV (Score:2)
So do these people buying these clones line up the replacement ahead of time if they take awhile to... "perfect"
New Recruiting for Animal Rights Agenda (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe this is a great place for PETA to step in, or at least to get it in the news. Our pound puppy is a great member of our family, he could never replace the dogs that we had before him, he is his own self, which makes me happy and he seems pretty OK with it too.
I would not have got a dog from a puppy mill or a cloning clinic and I think these places should be exposed for what they are. Some outrage is justified.
ok ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Do I even need to point out the irony here?
I'm a "religious extremist" because I think we shouldn't abort human babies, yet people who would abort a human in the blink of an eye for a genetic defect will get all weepy about puppies? Really?
Re:ok ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm guessing it's not remotely relevant to you this is happening after they've been born?
Yes, you wanting to control women's bodies to please your bad reading of the writings of your almighty sky fairy make you an extremist.
Re:ok ... (Score:5, Insightful)
They are minorities of opinion because both of these positions are untenable.
The "abortion any time, for any reason" camp is untenable because it cannot be justified terminating a viable pregnancy at, say, 30 weeks when that fetus could survive outside the womb with little assistance (beyond what any baby needs).
The "no abortion ever under any circumstances" camp is untenable because pregnancy can threaten the life of the mother, may not be viable, and can be due to rape or incest at which point forcing the mother to carry to term is another crime.
But yet, in the debate around abortion all we get is these two camps shouting at each other.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, you are every bit as irrational as the people who lose their shit over culled puppies.
Re: (Score:2)
This is more like giving birth to a child and throwing it in the trash because the birthmark is in the wrong place.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Are you advocating that babies should be created in a manner that increases the risk of them being unwanted or unhealthy ?
Shock coming, close your eyes... Non-religious people want the incidence of abortion reduced too, especially later in the pregnancy, that can't be easy on anyone involved. The way to do it is to drop patriachal afinity for male heirs, improve access to birth control, improve education and opportunity especially for women, improve access to health services (including abortion so that if i
Re: (Score:2)
I see irony in there already being far more restrictions on a woman's body than on firearms.
finish my dog (Score:5, Funny)
"Looks like your puppy is in a bad state, it's missing 2 paws, an ear and an eye.
I'm sorry, but I think it's best if you just leave it here, so I can finish it..."
A week later, the guy shows up again and asks: "Doctor, have you managed to finish my puppy yet?"
Death isn't necessarily cruel. (Score:5, Insightful)
If the euthanasia is not painful it is not cruel. Never confuse death with cruelty.
Rabbits kill defective offspring too. Nothing new but mention dogs and people freak out. Nature kills all life and other life eats it. If every dog were perfect it would die anyway, often slowly and painfully.
Want to stop suffering? Stop making new lives. There is no other way so don't dare pretend otherwise.
Re: (Score:3)
Does it matter? I think different people will feel different ways, but I think there's definitely a (fairly blurry) line between killing some cells that would one day become something, killing an organism capable of early stages of thought, and killing a fully developed organism capable of a fairly developed level of thought.
Right out of a dystopian novel (Score:2)
Let's see how many years it takes for Gene Corp to "scrap" live human sex toys made for the top 1%.
first stop baby killing (Score:2)
This is just a pimple on a serial killer.
Stop the serial killer first.
Protect those who can't protect themselves!
Big deal, we do infanticide... (Score:3)
The puppy would be delivered, the puppy would be kept comfortable, the puppy would be resuscitated if that’s what the owner and the breeder desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the vet and the owner.
Paraphrasing Governor Northam's take on abortion-after-birth (infanticide)
Re: (Score:2)
"transgender babies". Damn, what an idiot. Jesus much?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Cute puppy-wuppies! (Score:4, Insightful)
Cruelty? I was thinking survival. Or you are happy to succumb to the first germ that comes your way so that you don't kill?
Either all life is sacred, which is untenable and frankly ridiculous position or none is.
But then we kill several billion animals per year to produce our grain and veggies while claiming vegan moral superiority.
Show me one organism that does not inflict harm and kill other organisms in order to survive.
Re: (Score:3)
It's one thing to recognize that a living, breathing creature had to die so you could enjoy a burger. It's an entirely different thing to birth and then euthanize 10 puppies so that you can get one with a brown spot over its eye.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
So what? The level of cruelty involved in, say, meat production makes this look like nothing. Or pest control. I guess no-one cares about that any more, because it's just background-level: The cruelty society has already collectively decided is acceptable in return for tasty burgers and rat-free homes. But this is new and newsworthy. Especially as these are cute, pet animals.
There's a huge difference and you know it.
Breeding X cows so people can eat X cows instead of sald is not the same as cloning 10X puppies so people can have X puppies that remind them of their dead dog instead of adopting a different one.
I'm not saying that factory farming is humane, but it's not at at all the same as discarding life-forms brought into existence purely because of nostalgia.
Re: (Score:2)
I think that most people want their food and pests killed as humanely as possible. I know when I had to go to war on the rats, I tried pretty hard to kill them instantly. Same with when I've killed animals for food.
Re: (Score:2)
So what? The level of cruelty involved in, say, predator species like lions, tigers, cheetahs (list goes on for pages and pages) just to feed themselves makes this look like nothing. I guess no-one cares about that any more, because it's just background-level: The cruelty of Mother Nature in general has already collectively decided is acceptable in return for survival of predator species. But this is new and newsworthy. Especially as Appeal to Emotion is being leveraged to evoke a misguided compassionate response.
Fixed that for you. Better see a doctor about that bleeding heart of yours.
I'm not going to post my non-sarcastic comment on this news posting here, I'll do that in a stand-alone comment, look for it if you care enough to.
Re: (Score:2)
until their brains are a pudding
That would be zero times. Anyone with real brains wouldn't do this.
Re: (Score:2)
The cloning process should be band.
A clone of your favorite dog, will not do anyone any favors.
My dog is 11 and we expect a few more years out of him. He will be missed when he has to go... However having him cloned will not fill the missing hole, as it will be a different dog. He would grow up in a different environment then my original dog has, as myself and my wife are now over a decade older and have different tolerances and picked up skills on training a dog, the new (extremely expensive) dog will be