SpaceX Tries Buying Out Homeowners Around Starhopper's Texas Launchpad (businessinsider.com) 132
SpaceX "built its experimental spaceport in and around Boca Chica Village, a decades-old community of about 20 elderly residents," reports Business Insider.
But now "SpaceX is trying to buy as much of Boca Chica Village as it can and move people out...following an accidental brush fire, public-safety notices warning of the possibility for explosions, and a push to have the Federal Aviation Administration approve orbital-class launches with larger rockets." "When SpaceX first identified Cameron County as a potential spaceport location, we did not anticipate that local residents would experience significant disruption from our presence," the letter said. "However, it has become clear that expansion of spaceflight activities as well as compliance with Federal Aviation Administration and other public safety regulations will make it increasingly more challenging to minimize disruption to residents of the Village... SpaceX is offering you three times the independently appraised fair market value of your property," the letter said. "The offer is good through two weeks from the date of this letter...."
For those who commit to a sale, SpaceX said it would cover closing and other real-estate costs. It also comes packaged with an additional perk. "SpaceX recognizes that your close proximity to its operations has offered a unique opportunity to experience at close-hand the development of what will be the world's most advanced rocket. In appreciation of your support, we will offer all residents of the Village who accept the purchase offer the opportunity to continue their connection with the development of Starship by extending an invitation to attend future private VIP launch viewing events that are unavailable to the public."
Homeowner Cheryl Stevens complained to CBS News that the company has encroached on their neighborhood. "They're behaving as if this is Cape Canaveral. And it's not. It's not a military base. It's just a regular neighborhood, and a public beach, and a state highway. And suddenly, because they're here, stop the presses. Everything has to change for SpaceX."
SpaceX issued the following statement to CBS News: "We are entering a new and exciting era in space exploration and Texas is playing an increasingly important role in our efforts to help make humanity multi-planetary.
"As we develop Starship -- the world's most advanced launch system ever -- we are listening and responding to our neighbors' concerns and are striving to minimize disruptions as much as possible. We are working closely with Cameron County to facilitate public safety and provide regular road and beach closure updates to the public through a telephone hotline and on Cameron County's website."
But now "SpaceX is trying to buy as much of Boca Chica Village as it can and move people out...following an accidental brush fire, public-safety notices warning of the possibility for explosions, and a push to have the Federal Aviation Administration approve orbital-class launches with larger rockets." "When SpaceX first identified Cameron County as a potential spaceport location, we did not anticipate that local residents would experience significant disruption from our presence," the letter said. "However, it has become clear that expansion of spaceflight activities as well as compliance with Federal Aviation Administration and other public safety regulations will make it increasingly more challenging to minimize disruption to residents of the Village... SpaceX is offering you three times the independently appraised fair market value of your property," the letter said. "The offer is good through two weeks from the date of this letter...."
For those who commit to a sale, SpaceX said it would cover closing and other real-estate costs. It also comes packaged with an additional perk. "SpaceX recognizes that your close proximity to its operations has offered a unique opportunity to experience at close-hand the development of what will be the world's most advanced rocket. In appreciation of your support, we will offer all residents of the Village who accept the purchase offer the opportunity to continue their connection with the development of Starship by extending an invitation to attend future private VIP launch viewing events that are unavailable to the public."
Homeowner Cheryl Stevens complained to CBS News that the company has encroached on their neighborhood. "They're behaving as if this is Cape Canaveral. And it's not. It's not a military base. It's just a regular neighborhood, and a public beach, and a state highway. And suddenly, because they're here, stop the presses. Everything has to change for SpaceX."
SpaceX issued the following statement to CBS News: "We are entering a new and exciting era in space exploration and Texas is playing an increasingly important role in our efforts to help make humanity multi-planetary.
"As we develop Starship -- the world's most advanced launch system ever -- we are listening and responding to our neighbors' concerns and are striving to minimize disruptions as much as possible. We are working closely with Cameron County to facilitate public safety and provide regular road and beach closure updates to the public through a telephone hotline and on Cameron County's website."
If it were a military base... (Score:4, Informative)
If it were a military base, which is a government thing, they'd just use Eminent Domain, take your land, give you some insufficient quantity of money, and move your ass out whether you wanted to go or not!
3X market value (Score:2)
Re: 3X market value (Score:2)
Why couldn't you afford a nearby home when you got 3x value?
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Value and cost are not the same thing
"Market Value" is essentially cost. Fees are also paid for by SpaceX. No Real Estate agent is needed but if they wanted one it is a small fraction of the cost. A Realtor and fees may apply to their purchase of a replacement home but that is also a small fraction of the extra 2X SpaceX is paying.
Re: 3X market value (Score:2)
They wouldnâ(TM)t need an agent, just a lawyer to make sure everything is fair (which you should have anyway.)
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It's not SpaceX that is closing roads and requiring evacuations. It's Cameron County and specifically the Judge in Cameron County who is in charge of this. If the voters of Cameron County don't like it, they can change the local government. But guess what. Cameron County is VERY happy to have the jobs and property taxes (and prestige) that SpaceX brings. Cameron County and the State of Texas will be the center of the next major push into deep space and the colonization of other worlds in our solar syst
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The are when it's *market* value (Score:2)
Market value is how much it costs to buy a similar property nearby. So SpaceX is offering enough that the people can buy three houses similar to the old one.
A government can forcibly set prices much higher than useful values, but that's not market if the government is forcing things.
Re: 3X market value (Score:5, Interesting)
Three times Market value means squat when you are in a paid for home that you couldnâ(TM)t pick up in s similar location for that much.
Perhaps you need to look up the phrase "market value". Its not what they paid for it decades ago, its not what the tax agency values it at for tax purposes, its what it is worth *today* on the retail market. What a real estate agent would say you could get for it. Plus SpaceX is paying the fees for the sale.
SpaceX is being a cheap mother fucker. They could relocate those people into high, better homes in more desirable locations plus ...
With 3X market value plus fees that is basically what SpaceX is doing. These people will have the option to upgrade home and location.
You have to wonder what PR moron suggested trying to force these people out
No one is being forced. SpaceX is making an offer.
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FFS, I just bought this house a year ago, and it's just about my dream house. But if I got offered 3x market value for it right now? I'd sell in a heartbeat, even if it meant putting most of my shit in storage and living in a shitty apartment for a few months while I found a new place.
I have no idea what would possess someone to not take that deal. You can outright buy a place 2x as expensive as the one you own, and bank whatever percent of your current place you've paid down on the mortgage.
That is a kille
Re: 3X market value (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a lot easier to let go of the home you only moved into a year ago then perhaps the house you grew up in, or lived long enough in to be attached to it for various reasons. Money is also not that important to some people compared to other stuff.
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Personally, I can't give a shit about the houses I grew up in. They were old then, and are worse now. No jobs in the area, and they are doomed to decay and ruin. If I was a multi-millionaire, I wouldn't keep my childhood home up.
I don't get the weepy nostalgia that causes people to waste their money and their lives.
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Everyone is different. I don't care too much but my wife does. While the house thing doesn't matter as her childhood home is long gone, she has other useless crap she insists on holding onto and it's not worth breaking the households peace to argue about it.
Best to accept we're all different and all want to be ourselves.
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> Biological males compete directly against biological females in physical sports like track
[citation needed]
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No one is being forced. SpaceX is making an offer.
Kudos to SpaceX for the offer, but some people may not want to sell for any number of reasons, they think they can get more money later, their beloved pet is buried in the back yard, they planted that apple tree in the corner yard with their dad, just before he left for Vietnam and didn't come back. Or they just don't want to move because they don't want to.
Though it does make you wonder what SpaceX will do if anyone turns them down.
Anyone know what sort of legal avenues are available for a company to seiz
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Really? What's fair market value here compared with other similar locales? If housing/land is significantly cheaper here, then maybe 3x the value won't go very far. Maybe Space X chose this area because it's so damn cheap and this offer is a bi
Re: 3X market value (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yeah! No way that they could do that with 3x what their property is worth in their pocket. /s
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There is still a strong possibility that they can get eminent domain via "public needs" where they claim that added jobs and tax revenue provide benefit to the entire community.
If they go this route it will likely come down to political pressure on local county or community planning boards to make the call
In the past money has won
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In any case, SpaceX has missed other details to motivate the owners and make sure that they feel whole -
(1) a minor moving package
(2) recognition that a sudden change of plans entails time and effort to shop and move
(3) SpaceX might o
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In most places the reason that some property values are "low" is that the property owner has been arguing for decades that their property has low value, to skip out on taxes. It is a risk they don't really think about.
From what I've seen, even once they know it going to be taken they're still not smart enough to try to correct the value, because they choose instead the impossible fight to try to keep the property and in their fantasy world where they win that fight they don't want to pay full taxes afterwar
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Great. All it takes is one property owner to tell Musk to go fuck himself and SpaceX is in the same predicament they'd be in if they all refused to sell.
Hopefully they stick together and demand several million apiece. It'd still be cheaper for Elon and they all need to know that. There is no national need for this rich-person's vanity project.
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odds of debris landing on 1 house is smaller than on 100.
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These residents have already been warned that their windows might shatter during launches and to open them when told. A simple test also started a brushfire that threatened their properties just a few months ago. We aren't talking about random parts falling from the sky, although with Musk I'd say the odds of that happening are increased quite a bit over a NASA launch.
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Property tax assessment value and fair market value are different in basically all jurisdictions.
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My "3x" question is how much the real estate values and appreciation have already been discounted by the nuisance of SpaceX. Often these "independent" values are low by 10%-30%-50% in the immediate market and ignore other long term potential for the long term holders.
No, they are getting quotes from the same appraisers the banks use for mortgage lending purposes. "Market Value" has nothing to do with what these people paid long ago, it is by definition about what its value is today on the open market.
You seem to be referring to aberrations where there is some sort of bidding war on a property and people pay over market value.
In any case, SpaceX has missed other details to motivate the owners and make sure that they feel whole - (1) a minor moving package (2) recognition that a sudden change of plans entails time and effort to shop and move (3) SpaceX might offer them some rent-free time extension too - just no complaints If they are that elderly, they won't want to move until its time for a nursing home. Why tie up 3-6 months moving in the last 2-3 years of independent living? Save the transition for one change.
That is all outweighed by the extra 2X being paid. The economic arguments you make don't add up. The only argument that is plausible is that the
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The market value of the property is meaningless, especially now that Musk has decided to build an experimental rocket launching base next door that routinely catches the neighborhood on fire. That kinda deminishes the market value don't you think? What matters is the cost of a replacement property and relocation costs. Times ten, because fuck Elon Musk and this kind of arrogance.
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The market value of the property is meaningless, especially now that Musk has decided to build an experimental rocket launching base next door that routinely catches the neighborhood on fire. That kinda deminishes the market value don't you think?
Local wildfires is not necessarily catching the neighborhood on fire. Plus SpaceX probably raised the market value when it announced plans to build the launch facility there. There are only a handful of properties and if there are a handful of people out there who want to be near SpaceX for some reason the market is not necessarily diminished. Its merely a different sort of person is drawn to the neighborhood.
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it is by definition about what its value is today on the open market.
Yes, but what he's saying is the value could be depressed because of SpaceX. So if SpaceX has lowered the price an immediate buyer would pay by 30%, then they offer triple that, they're really only getting 2x of what it would have been without SpaceX.
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it is by definition about what its value is today on the open market.
Yes, but what he's saying is the value could be depressed because of SpaceX. So if SpaceX has lowered the price an immediate buyer would pay by 30%, then they offer triple that, they're really only getting 2x of what it would have been without SpaceX.
Has SpaceX lowered the market value? How much did value rise when SpaceX announced plans to build there? How much did the value depress because SpaceX might case a local wildfire? How does that net compare to pre-SpaceX plus inflation or plus price growth elsewhere in the county? Are there people who want to live near the SpaceX facility who would not be deterred by local wildfires? You have to know answers to these questions and more before claiming SpaceX crashed local prices.
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Yup, anyone who doesn't want to take 3x the appraised value of their house, is plain stupid. With that kind of cash you can buy a new nicer house, have a moving company do all the work and still have lots of money left over. What's there to think about?
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Not sure what the problem is (Score:2)
This sort of thing happens all the time in much more mundane situations. People are free to say “no”.
Unless there’s some proviso that lets SpaceX back out if they don’t get 100% buy-in. That could be very confusing and problematic, given the age of the residents. But there’s no indication of that in the story.
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People are free to say âoenoâ.
They can't say "no" to the overpressure events that could blow out all their windows. I'm supportive of SpaceX (see my other comment) but it's not quite so simple - they cannot have reasonably anticipated that kind of neighbor when building there.
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You might want to read the Wikipedia article regarding Boca Chica Village. It only had six permanent residents even before SpaceX moved in; now there are four (in two households, so two married couples).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
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People are free to say "no".
They can't say "no" to the overpressure events that could blow out all their windows. I'm supportive of SpaceX (see my other comment) but it's not quite so simple - they cannot have reasonably anticipated that kind of neighbor when building there.
That's a good point, it's not simple. It sounds like a fair offer to me. While people wouldn't have had a reason to anticipate the kinds of changes SpaceX is creating as a neighbor, people also wouldn't necessarily have a reason to anticipate changes in flight paths, construction of major freeways or other infrastructure such as power lines and pipelines, or other things that may be an inconvenience or diminish property values, yet these things do happen fairly regularly. As said, people can say "no", and t
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People are free to say âoenoâ.
They're free to try, anyways, but I doubt they'll succeed.
Send for the Brutesquad. (Score:2)
Make them an offer they (or the soon to be future heirs) can't refuse.
Not a bad deal, honestly. (Score:5, Insightful)
And then, I get a new house. A fantastic car. A great story to tell my new neighbors and family. AND I get to watch multiple milestone Starship launches.
I can just as easily tell new kids to get off my lawn at my new place.
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You're assuming a rational person. California's Prop 13 was written by people who weren't. "We can't make grandma, who's now a millionaire because her house is worth 10x what she paid for it, sell it and move just because she's on a fixed income and can't afford to pay the property tax!"
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You're assuming a rational person. California's Prop 13 was written by people who weren't. "We can't make grandma, who's now a millionaire because her house is worth 10x what she paid for it, sell it and move just because she's on a fixed income and can't afford to pay the property tax!"
There are so many easy solutions to that "problem". When there is a $1M+ asset involved these things are really easy because there is lots of value to work with. Reverse mortgages (or the self-managed equivalent), partial or complete sale to an investor with a lifetime residency clause, sale and relocation... there are lots and lots of options. A good financial manager should be able to sit down with Grandma for an hour or two and help her craft a solution that meets her goals. Some compromises will be
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I'm in my 40s. Still paying on a mortgage. If SpaceX offered me 3x the appraised value of my house, plus relocation expenses, and the VIP space launch stuff, I'd simple say "throw in a Model Y for the wife and you have a deal."
The letter did say something about the deal was trying to be fair to all involved and so demands for a new car would likely be tossed, because if you got a car then everyone would want a car. Maybe if everyone that got a letter came together to try to sweeten the deal with a car as part of the deal that might go through.
Here's what I would ask instead, do you care if the house is left in habitable condition when I left? As in, could I strip the house of all the copper wiring and pipes? They are likely to
For a few dollars more... (Score:2)
Reading this it reminds me of "The Old Prophet" scene from "For a Few Dollars More"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mLu5jOUmws
Re: Heard this one before (Score:2)
Did you see the 3x market value part of the headline?
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Did you see the 3x market value part of the headline?
Perhaps some folks want to live and die in the houses they already own.
Personally, I'd tell Muskie 10X and I'd think about it.
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I was there last year;
Cool, nice to hear what it is like.
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So what? Now that this is public its all or nothing for Musk? If even one person holds out then all of the precautionary costs SpaceX is complaining about still have to be paid for their launches. Hopefully these people know they have Elon by the balls.
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So what? Now that this is public its all or nothing for Musk? If even one person holds out then all of the precautionary costs SpaceX is complaining about still have to be paid for their launches. Hopefully these people know they have Elon by the balls.
No, the monetary risk scales with the number of people who remain, but the PR cost becomes much smaller if you offered them an amazing deal beforehand.
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Perhaps some folks want to live and die in the houses they already own.
I'm sure it can be arranged.
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Perhaps some folks want to live and die in the houses they already own.
I'm sure it can be arranged.
It's a P.R. disaster though. "Elderly lady burned to a crisp by Spacex rocket explosion. Company spokesman says "This is an exciting new era!"
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Do you really believe that the greater good can only be served by government agencies? What a depressing world you live in!
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Do you really believe that the greater good can only be served by government agencies? What a depressing world you live in!
I believe that humans are capable of some awful stuff. Doesn't matter if they are in your hated government, or the true saints guided by altruism in the deity approved invisibble hand of the free market.
Humans are capable of some awesome stuff as well. Doesn't matter where they are working Yeah - that was sarcastic. But eventually one can get tired of the present day concept that government is evil, and other folks aren't.
My entire premise in this whole discussion is that while the location might be g
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If someone offered me 3x the value of my house, with all expenses covered, and without any of the hassle of selling a house.. fuck yes.
I bet there is like 1 person in this 20 person town that doesn't take it for whatever reason. SpaceX will just wait till they die then buy it from their relatives.
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Maybe they want some time to find a place to move to? Doubt I could find a place I would want to move to in 2 weeks, even if they paid me 3 times the value of my house.
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2 weeks to accept the offer, with plenty of time to move after.
the offer HAS to be limited, because otherwise others will buy the houses for 3x, hoping to get 9x, then 27x...
Re: Heard this one No it before (Score:2)
No, they could just fix the price at 3x market value on a certain date, while still giving people more time to decide. I don't like be rushed into making important decisions in the best case, doubly so when the time limit is being artificial imposed. If someone gave me an offer like that, I would turn them down on the spot just out of principle.
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Have you thought about the cost of another property somewhere else or are you just gobsmacked by that "3x market value" number for your current property? You know those are different numbers right?
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It had occurred to me, but as I said below, 3x market value for a run down dump out in the middle of nowhere is still 3x market value for a rundown dump in the middle of nowhere. The appraisal value of a house is usually pretty representative of what it would cost to get a similar house in a similar area.
In my case 3x the value of my house would more than cover the cost of me getting a much nicer house and leave me enough left over to probably retire sooner. Even if my house was in the sub 100k range though
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A shack on a patch of dirt that might be worthless to the owner could be worth tens of millions to an oil or mining company if they know it has value beyond the house/people currently sitting on it. The difference here is that hopefully these people now understand that they are sitting on an absolute gold mine. Musk wouldn't be making any offer at all unless he knew he absolutely has to have those properties.
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The cynic in me says the person in the article making a stink is probably angling for a higher payout.
I'll admit, I'm not much of a gambler. If someone came and offered me 3x the value of my house, even if I thought there was a possibility of getting a lot more at the risk of losing the opportunity entirely, I'd probably take the safe initial 3x offer. We're not talking winning the lottery, but that would still be a significant windfall for me. I think this is probably true of a lot of people and probably a
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The difference here is that hopefully these people now understand that they are sitting on an absolute gold mine.
No, they absolutely are not!
The second-to-worst case scenario is probably mandatory evacuations during major launch events. The worst case scenario is a petition for eminent domain, which has a decent chance of succeeding.
Nobody wants to buy your shitty beach shack that they'll have to evacuate from on a semi-regular basis, and/or lose to eminent domain for market price. SpaceX has made a very good offer, and the courts will look favorably on that when they go to either require evacuations or size the land
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A shack on a patch of dirt that might be worthless to the owner could be worth tens of millions to an oil or mining company
Not without the mineral rights. Maybe you should read your deed. I pretty much guarantee those got sold off separately long before you bought any property.
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Somewhere already paid for you can live out the remainder of your life and you know all the neighbors = priceless.
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3x market value for a run down dump out in the middle of nowhere is still 3x market value for a rundown dump in the middle of nowhere.
We're not talking rent controlled apartments or cars where price and utility arn't always aligned. The appraised value of a house is usually a pretty good indicator of the actual value to get another equivalent. Unless there is some unusual forces where these houses are far undervalued, they should be able to buy an equivalent run down dump in a roughly equivalent middle of n
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A rundown dump in the middle of nowhere may also still be a fully paid for familiar place you can live out the remainder of your life in comfortably.
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I mean they have the right to say no in the same way SpaceX has the right to try and find the price of that familiarity.
Personally while I like where I live and like my neighbors, I'd happily start over somewhere for that kinda money. I'm also not 80 though which obviously makes a difference in perspective.
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Move 10 miles down the road and buy a similar place, and bank 2x your house's value. Seriously, regardless of the price it's a damn good deal. Or for 2x your house's value you can buy new property and build a brand new place to your liking, and still bank the value of your house.
I don't see how it's logical to not take that offer. There's almost nowhere in the US where you can't move a few miles down the road and a get a very similar priced house. If you've got 3x the money to shop for it, you can balance b
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True, but the new house doesn't have the lines on the wall where you marked the kids height on their birthday, the tree you and your late spouse planted in the yard years ago, etc, etc.
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True,
But guess what, you take that part of the wall. I suspect that they will let you strip some of the house.
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Good luck moving the tree! Or the entire flower garden.
Different people value things differently. The equation can shift around a lot when you get older as well. At 30, the extra money and a chance to improve your overall situation may be quite tempting. If you're 80, not so much.
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For 3x the value of your house? I bet you can take it with you [youtube.com].
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And the flower garden?
Like I said, people value things differently. When you suspect you don't have that much time left, 3x the value may not mean much if you already have enough.
While I appreciate that SpaceX is making an effort to do the right thing, they're the ones that moved in last, and it may be expensive to get the people who were already there to willingly leave.
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I see you are very unbiased.
When were you fired from Tesla?
Haggling (Score:2)
Man to woman: Would you sleep with me for one million dollars?
Woman: Sure.
Man: How about for ten dollars?
Woman: What do you think I am?
Man: Weâ(TM)ve already established what you are. All weâ(TM)re doing is bargaining about price.
At 3X market value, I'd knock you down to take it.
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You start low and then go higher.
No one is going to let you start high and then go lower.
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Of course if it was the Texas Hwy Dept or a dam, you're screwed. An uncle had takings affected by both of the latter situations.
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How dare Elon go around offering to buy people's houses for three times what its worth.
The houses there aren't worth that much - they're quite basic homes in a remote area of desert. A fan has purchased one of the homes and livestreams from there. She isn't upset by the evacuation notices.
A better approach may be to find a spot that's similar (near the beach, a bit north) and build a little village for them where all the homes are much nicer - meaning a standard community village house in 2019 terms, so t
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A better approach is for SpaceX to go and find another spot with the appropriate land to act as a barrier. They knew that the the company was going to build larger rockets that would require a larger buffer area and yet they went ahead and bought the current location anyways. SpaceX should have bought the larger area in the first place. Now it's the people living beside the current facility that are being punished.
Who cares if they are being offered three times the current value of the home. It doesn't take
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It came up before, but there really aren't that many suitable spots for something like this. They managed to find a place out in the middle of nowhere with _20 people_ living there. That's probably as close as your going to get to the perfect spot. I'm sure if they could have found something more remote they would have taken it.
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Swampy river deltas are not usually counted as deserts.
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" If people don't want to sell, they can live with the risk and the company will have to live with it too."
No, if Musk and SpaceX weren't being faced with MASSIVE liabilities now they wouldn't be trying to buy these people out. I suspect these residents could shut them down completely now if they wanted given the willful disregard for their safety that SpaceX has shown so far.
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It's Musk's fault (well, the company's) of course. Why do you think there is a debate about that? That's why they're trying to buy out. If people don't want to sell, they can live with the risk and the company will have to live with it too.
I think you might really be surprised if someone gets killed. I can't just move into a neighborhood, and demand everyone sell their homes to me, than say "You didn't sell your home to me, so if I kill you with my dangerous device - I am above liability it's 100 percent your fault"
Someone gets burnt to a crisp, Spacex has as much as admitted liability with this action.
Sane companies don't launch rockets that close to others. Musk and Spacex are just showing their hubris. They assume that everyone is as
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What if some debris from an aborted Kennedy Space Center launch hits a Florida home? Shit happens, you can't rule out all risk.
They got permits to launch there, the odds of it happening are deemed low enough.
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What if some debris from an aborted Kennedy Space Center launch hits a Florida home? Shit happens, you can't rule out all risk.
They got permits to launch there, the odds of it happening are deemed low enough.
Here's what ya do - Boca China village is here. https://tools.wmflabs.org/geoh... [wmflabs.org]
Anyhow - it appears that you are saying that if the permit is in place, it is safe. But let's go back to reality. There are other places nearby where a rocket might go astray. Like Port Isabel. About 5.78 miles away.
You just aren't supposed to place launch sites around people. It sometimes works like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Google Earth shows inhabited areas much further away. Presumably the Starship w
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I'm saying there is no binary safe/unsafe.
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I'm saying there is no binary safe/unsafe.
Problem is, there's a hellava lot of difference between something that is almost certainly unsafe, and a place where an errant rocket stands a good chance of giving you a free cremation.
not so many choices (Score:3)
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