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China Science

China Says it Cloned a Police Dog To Speed Up Training (xinhuanet.com) 116

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
A cloned dog, believed to be the first of the kind in China, has started training in Yunnan Province in a program to reduce the cost and time needed for training police dogs. From a report: Kunxun, a female of the Kunming wolfdog breed, was born on Dec. 19 last year in Beijing and arrived on March 5 for training at the Kunming Police Dog Base of the Ministry of Public Security. She was cloned from a 7-year-old female dog, known as Huahuangma, that has been in service in the city of Pu'er, Yunnan, by Sinogene, a Beijing-based biotechnology firm. The cloning is part of the ministry's research program.

Huahuangma played important roles in helping detectives with dozens of murder investigations, and was accredited the first-level merit in 2016, said Wan Jiusheng, an officer who is responsible for training Kunxun. Huahuangma's outstanding abilities as a police dog made her an eligible donor of genes, Wan said. "It takes four to five years to train a meritorious dog such as Huahuangma, and costs hundreds of thousands of yuan," he said. Police dogs serving in real tasks are not usually used for breeding. The cloning program helps researchers copy their excellent genes and reduces the time and costs needed for training, researchers familiar with the program said.
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China Says it Cloned a Police Dog To Speed Up Training More

China Says it Cloned a Police Dog To Speed Up Training

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  • So the training gets embedded in the DNA and transferred to the new generation?

    • That is how it works in Science Fiction.
      Also in Science fiction they like to produce fully grown clones too. Not kids growing up in their sterile scientific environment.

    • So the training gets embedded in the DNA and transferred to the new generation?

      Did you not read TFS?

      She was cloned from a 7-year-old female dog, known as Huahuangma,

      So in 2 years when the clone is full grown, the original dog will be 9 and probably getting too old. So they can just scoop out it's brain and put it into the clone. Instantly having 9 years of training and life experience in a 2 year old. It's a clone, so tissue rejection shouldn't be an issue either. Bonus points if they replace the skull with a clear gorilla glass cover and the larynx with a buzzy electronic sounding speaker.

    • What kind of gibbering halfwit modded this down??
    • Mostly if not absolutely, no, but some epigenetic changes can be passed to the next generation, such as stress. But complex skills can't be inherited. They copied the DNA because that particular combination of genes was successful and it's very difficult and costly to reproduce a similarly gifted dog with just selective breeding.

  • I would like to see the numbers on this claim (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Monday March 25, 2019 @09:53AM (#58330638)

    Nature vs Nurture argument is back here. If we clone a good police dog, but assume it will be cheaper to train, then they don't train it as well as it genetic predecessor, thus isn't as effective, and the high cost of cloning a dog.
    We have identical twins, who have different personalities, and over time actually have some physical differences in appearance, (A little fatter or skinnier), Gone gray earlier, one needs glasses while the other doesn't, even their face structure can be different over time, just because they express emotions differently.
    I don't see much advantage over cloning a good dog vs breeding a good dog with an other good one.

    • South Korea already did this and have cloned dogs in service for a few years now. China is just trying to do the same.... but not yet successful like South Korea.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Nature vs Nurture argument is back here. If we clone a good police dog, but assume it will be cheaper to train, then they don't train it as well as it genetic predecessor, thus isn't as effective, and the high cost of cloning a dog.

      Not, Nature vs Nurture. The premise here is Nature and Nurture.
      By removing as much variance in the Nature part you don't have to handle as many special cases in the Nurture part.
      I guess they hope to streamline the training into something where very little experience is needed and you just need to go through the documented process.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      When they train police dogs it often is one in four that successfully make it through the training. Meanwhile, they've paid for 4 handlers to train 4 dogs and only one makes it. Assuming good training practices, this would assure that the dogs involved would make it and not waste everyone's time and money.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by guruevi ( 827432 )

      It costs money to breed and most likely they'll be out of commission. Additionally, you don't get to pick the genes in a 'normal' birth, you can get random variations whereas this is more controlled.

      It's an experiment after all, the question remains whether this was just good training of the dog or the dog's or the breed's natural ability.

      On the other hand, we've been doing a form of gene-editing on wolves for hundreds of centuries, hence why we have so many dog breeds.

    • What if I told you fatter or skinnier is at least in a non-irrelevant part a function about how much food you consume relative how much energy you use rather than genetics?

      Also genes change and we have some memory of previous generations trauma.

      • There is also factors on how people eat. There is a genetic factor to ones weight, we can see that by realizing how different people weight is distributed, not everyone gets fat the same way, and you will often see a trend that people who get fat one way, is often similar to the way their parents would put on weight.
        For the Calories your Eat vs Burn argument, there is more factors, How many calories that go thru your system, unprocessed, and how much do you burn normally. Some people when they eat too much

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Win0ver ( 613215 )
      I agree but need to point out that 'identical twins' do not have identical genes [scientificamerican.com].
      So there are differences between twins and clones.
    • No question about it, which is why I suspect a different motive altogether: they don't plan to train them; they plan to age and marinate them.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      The police get the smart dog that will "alert" when needed. The hidden command of their handler gets results..
      To happen with no obvious detection by courts, lawyers.
      Thats the special dog nations want.
      The "alert" can then be used as the granted pretext for much more conversations and searching.
      Probable cause that always works.

  • Am I missing something? (Score:5, Informative)

    by the_skywise ( 189793 ) on Monday March 25, 2019 @09:53AM (#58330646)
    Cloning would only affect the physical attributes and mental 'capacities' of the dog. It would NOT pass on the acquired skills or training so the dog isn't going to know how to sniff out a perp without that same 5 years of training including for physical abilities. I don't see how this "speeds up the process" although it's more likely that you're going to guarantee a successful candidate from the cloning.

    • A dog with a genetic good temperament, with the wrong trainer, could indeed change the temperament of such dog.

    • No, it wouldn't, but cop-curs with exceptional abilities can be cloned rather than relying on random chance to produce a whelp with the same abilities.

    • Re:Am I missing something? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jfdavis668 ( 1414919 ) on Monday March 25, 2019 @10:02AM (#58330684)
      The point is to breed dogs with desired traits without waiting for the parent to retire from active police work to be a breeding dog.

      • It would be far better to use embryo transfer [drovers.com] to produce a few dozen puppies from selected parents. The mother wouldn't need to be retired because they can use surrogates to carry the pups.

        Of course that assumes the female hasn't already been spayed, which has probably happened in this case.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by radja ( 58949 )

        also, cloning is less random than sexual reproduction.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Livius ( 318358 )

      There's a selection effect - the dogs that complete training and are demonstrated to be effective at their jobs are theoretically a preferable gene pool compated to a random population or even the population initially selected for training. Even better would be to focus on those dogs that excelled at the training or completed it faster than their peers.

      With cloning, the dogs are not taken out of the workforce for breeding activities. Whether cloning technology is effective enough for it to be a better opt

    • I mostly agree the speed of training would not be impacted, a big advantage would be you'd have a police dog that should not wash out of the program.

      There is actually one way in which training could be sped up though, trainers that had worked with the original dog would theoretically better understand what specific things helped motivate the dog. In that way they could take some shortcuts in training not having to fine tune the rewards they give.

      I find it amusing though that Doom using repeated textures fo

    • Cloning would only affect the physical attributes and mental 'capacities' of the dog. It would NOT pass on the acquired skills or training so the dog isn't going to know how to sniff out a perp without that same 5 years of training including for physical abilities.

      Well, I dunno, what if the dog in question was named Duncan Idaho?

    • It takes four to five years to train a meritorious dog such as Huahuangma, and costs hundreds of thousands of yuan,

      But if you start by cloning a meritorious dog to get good initial stock, you're seeding your meritocracy from the get-go. It only makes sense, right?

    • It would NOT pass on the acquired skills

      It won't pass but some dogs are better and faster learners and that has genetic factors.

  • So, I'm told all the time now that aptitude doesn't exist for humans, that anyone can learn anything, that genetics doesn't determine (or maybe even influence) who will come out on top for a skill.

    But it exists for dogs?

    Maybe we could measure what we are going for here ... we could call it DQ (Dog Quotient).

    • Humans have all the same facilities, but may show up with different implementation. A little slower, a little faster.

      The brain adjusts itself to reduce energy consumption in common tasks. Given similar environments, the brain will tend to adjust itself in similar ways. Put a slow kid and a fast kid in the same early learning environment and the slow kid will struggle more...at first. The brain will adjust to reduce the energy required for learning, and the slow kid will converge in learning speed with

      • Citation? Because all the research I've seen suggests that genetics do in fact have a powerful role to play - the tabla-rasa bullshit was put to bed decades ago.

        • Intersection of large bodies of research on human memory (enormous topic), learning (oddly not a very big topic compared to the specifics of memory), and development of expertise (K. Anders Ericsson, notably). Genetic variation has a huge impact; it's just not controlling.

          Motivation has the heaviest role. Any non-damaged human brain can operate in a manner similar to any other non-damaged human brain: you have the same organoids with the same function. Think about it like having a heart, liver, lungs

          • If you're talking about "I'm no good at math" mental ability, then sure - you're no good at math because you haven't practiced enough. Some people are predisposed to thinking in the ways necessary, but it's something anyone do if they put their mind to it.

            But if you're trying to scale that up to "anybody could be an Einstein" - I find that extremely unlikely. The further outside the normal range you get, the bigger the impact of genetic predisposition. The brain is not infinitely plastic - and like muscl

            • if you're trying to scale that up to "anybody could be an Einstein" - I find that extremely unlikely. The further outside the normal range you get, the bigger the impact of genetic predisposition. The brain is not infinitely plastic - and like muscle, there's a limit to how far you can push it.

              Do you think people achieve the full of their potential at any time in their lives? That they can achieve no more and have hit the limits of their brain's plasticity?

              K. Anders Ericsson describes the "Okay Plateau," where people cease to improve. You become a decent pianist, a decent typist, a decent computer programmer, but can't become better. Why? Because what you're doing is not inflicting pain, and you're not invested in success.

              The first is a matter of negative reinforcement: if you play Go an

              • >Do you think people achieve the full of their potential at any time in their lives? That they can achieve no more and have hit the limits of their brain's plasticity?

                Not actually hit it - but it's not a limitless progression either. You converge on your maximum potential, so that further effort yields continuously diminishing returns. It perhaps takes as much effort to go from 80% to 85% of your maximum potential as it did to reach 80% in the first place. And of course you'e also fighting the natural

                • deliberate practice is far older than Ericson, or even language. It's the way in which every predator learns to hunt for example.

                  Not really. Casual practice leads to a plateau when you're good enough. Consider drawing: you find a subject, you draw. You keep doing this, you improve.

                  With deliberate practice, you identify that you specifically have trouble with the details of eyes. The irises are always a bit off-center, the expressions are a bit off, and so forth. Instead of drawing faces or people again and again, you start drawing highly-detailed expressions, with focus on the eyes. You draw eyes again and again--but not jus

              • Ericsson is a huckster who makes broad claims while ignoring any evidence that conflicts with his claims.
                He assumes that since all extraordinarily successful people had
                a history of intense training, that anybody with the same training could have achieved as much.
                What Ericsson fails to understand is that only those born with a high degree of innate talent can
                make use of this intense training.

                Anybody else would just use that time and effort to achieve a higher level of mediocrity.

                • Where is this word "huckster" coming from? I've seen it recently to describe people like Larry Kudlow.

                  Being "born with a high degree of innate talent" seems to be a highly-coincidental process. When we pull people born from the dredges of muddled poor-people genes into an adoption agency and give them to rich folks, we somehow always catch the ones who somehow mutated high-talent genes. Likewise, those from a long line of highly-talented individuals who are put into a poor social environment with inade

    • What numb-nuts told you that? Decades of nature-versus-nurture studies have pretty firmly established that *both* aspects have very powerful influence on the individual.

      Assuming you haven't been listening to baseless New-Age bullshit, what you probably heard was that there's no *racial* correlation of aptitudes (with a very few exceptions, like resisting skin cancer) - which is simply a reflection of the fact that racial classifications are based on obvious superficial phenotypes rather than genotypes,

  • I'll be curious to see how this turns out. It has implications for other cases outside of police dogs if it works*. For instance thoroughbred horses, prize bulls, and other fields where high-price breeding fees are in play.

    *By works, I mean produce an animal with the same physical abilities, temperament, and other genetic traits without any undesirable side effects of the cloning process. Obviously no one thinks the clones will come out of the womb pre-trained.
  • I understand cloning an animal passes on certain abilities and learning traits.. but it doesn't pass on the memories, experiences or those actual learned behaviors... so where's the time savings? What's not being said?
    • Actually, I think its a little more complicated than that - https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-an... [gizmodo.com]. I am not sure how this interacts with cloning and the jury is still out on what can be passed down in this way, but nurture does influence the genome which I assume would be passed down through cloning.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tazan ( 652775 )
      You could spend a lot of time training a dog, only to find out it doesn't have the required innate ability. Or maybe it does have the capability but the method of training in use doesn't work with it's personality This eliminates the unknown variables and therefore waste.

  • First thing you learn about Chinese research claims is always go to the source and verify the proofs.

  • The cloned dog will be trained with the best, premier techniques thought to produce a great police dog. However, what experience had shown to be a great police dog (the DNA donor) might have been raised or trained in ways nobody documented because they did not follow the handbook. So the new dog, while genetically similar to the old one is trained in the officially mandated style of today - which won't necessarily give you another champion dog because the training is what they think is best, not necessari

  • What about cloning Einstein and other bright minds?

    • It has often been considered, and will probably be attempted once we have the technology to effectively clone humans, assuming someone has a cache of intact DNA.

  • How long before china selects the most trainable soldiers for cloning?
    I bet they're already planning for it.

  • I treat this like all "news" coming out of China: As misinformation or a downright lie to make it seem like China actually achieves things, which i highly doubt it does. See also the FUD stories about people injecting themselves with fruitjuice and other bullshit like that.

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