Rising Seas Give Island Nation a Stark Choice: Relocate or Elevate (nationalgeographic.com) 243
Climate change means the low-lying Marshall Islands must consider drastic measures, including building new artificial islands. National Geographic: The navigational prowess of Marshall Islanders is legendary. For thousands of years, Marshallese have embraced their watery environment, building a culture on more than 1,200 islands scattered across 750,000 square miles of ocean. But powerful tropical cyclones, damaged reefs and fisheries, worsening droughts, and sea-level rise threaten the coral reef atolls of this large ocean state, forcing the Marshallese to navigate a new reality.
In a moment of reckoning, Marshall Islanders face a stark choice: relocate or elevate. One idea being considered is the construction of a new island or raising an existing one. With 600 billion tons of melting ice flowing into oceans that are absorbing heat twice as fast as 18 years ago, the Marshallese will need to move fast. A report published by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in October highlighted different projected outcomes from a temperature rise of 1.5C versus 2C.
In the report, small-island developing states are identified as being at disproportionately higher risk of adverse consequences of global warming. Among them, four atoll nations: Kiribati, Tuvalu, the Maldives, and the Marshall Islands, are at greatest risk. [...] In July, speaking at a climate change conference on Majuro, capital of the Marshall Islands, University of Hawaii climate scientist Chip Fletcher discussed possible adaptation measures. When Fletcher presented a map depicting Majuro flooded under three feet of water, there was an audible gasp in the room. For climate activists in the Pacific, "1.5 to stay alive," has been the mantra of survival. "We're going to miss 1.5C," Fletcher told his audience, but added, "there's something we can do about it."
In a moment of reckoning, Marshall Islanders face a stark choice: relocate or elevate. One idea being considered is the construction of a new island or raising an existing one. With 600 billion tons of melting ice flowing into oceans that are absorbing heat twice as fast as 18 years ago, the Marshallese will need to move fast. A report published by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in October highlighted different projected outcomes from a temperature rise of 1.5C versus 2C.
In the report, small-island developing states are identified as being at disproportionately higher risk of adverse consequences of global warming. Among them, four atoll nations: Kiribati, Tuvalu, the Maldives, and the Marshall Islands, are at greatest risk. [...] In July, speaking at a climate change conference on Majuro, capital of the Marshall Islands, University of Hawaii climate scientist Chip Fletcher discussed possible adaptation measures. When Fletcher presented a map depicting Majuro flooded under three feet of water, there was an audible gasp in the room. For climate activists in the Pacific, "1.5 to stay alive," has been the mantra of survival. "We're going to miss 1.5C," Fletcher told his audience, but added, "there's something we can do about it."
old story (Score:2)
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Re: old story (Score:5, Informative)
Yes I understood that they were all going to the US at some point.
Mostly yes. But for different reasons. The "sea level rise" may be a problem someday, but for now sea levels are rising about 4mm per year, which may be a lot after a century, but is not even noticeable so far.
Several of their islands are contaminated with radiation from US testing, and they have a high birth rate, so the "clean" islands are getting crowded. Marshallese have a right to immigrate to America, and many of them have done so. Many settled in Arkansas, where they work growing chickens for Tyson. There is also a large group of Marshallese on the Big Island of Hawaii, where they tend to be resented by the locals for working too hard.
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but is not even noticeable so far.
Except where the difference causes erosion of natural barriers and proceeds to utterly devastate areas as a result.
Science Bomb!
Theory vs. data (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Theory vs. data (Score:5, Informative)
Data shows that coral-based islands (like the Marshalls) are growing. Eighty percent are either stable or growing [nationalgeographic.com]. Tuvalu has added 3% more land in the last 50 years [phys.org], and the Maldives, which famously held a cabinet meeting underwater to show their nation is doomed [nbcnews.com] has no change in land area over the last 60 years [tradingeconomics.com].
Coral atolls grow higher when sea levels rise. The question is one of rates. As long as the sea level rises are slow enough, the atolls will be more or less fine. But if the water rises faster than the corals can grow, they'll be inundated. Massive corals of the sort that make up these atoll reefs can grow up to 5mm per year. Over the 20th century the average annual sea level increase was 1.7mm. No problem, they can keep up with that. Since the 90s the rate has averaged 3.2mm per year. The corals can handle that, too... but the rate doesn't have to accelerate much more to overwhelm them.
Indeed, even at current rates, islands are having problems. I was on Rarotonga last month, in the Cook Islands. Natives there told me that their lagoons used to be two to three times deeper than they are now. The problem is that seas are crashing higher over the reefs and depositing more sand, causing the lagoons to fill in. This has created problems for fishing and for the tourist industry (snorkeling in a foot of water isn't much fun). However, it's expected that over the next 20 years the waves will rise higher yet and begin removing sand from the lagoons and the beaches, reversing the shallowing trend and then beginning to eat away at the island. Rarotonga will be fine; it's volcanic and rises over 2000 feet above sea level at its highest point. At worst people will have to move inland a little bit. But it could easily devastate the already-fragile island economy.
I was also on Mangaia and they're facing a different problem. Much of the island's fresh water supply comes from inland lakes which flow through tunnels in the makatea (fossil coral) to the ocean. But sea levels have risen enough that during storms water now flows in through the tunnels, turning the lakes brackish. This is having serious effects on the island ecosystems as well as making fresh water harder to come by.
The bottom line is that for many islanders, climate change is already having very real and very visible effects, mostly due to rising sea levels. And it's going to get much worse. And many low-lying coral atolls may just disappear when the rate of sea level rise exceeds the rate at which the corals can grow.
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The truth is that the data does not support that conclusion. At all.
And while fresh water on many smaller islands has always been an issue, it is not one that can be attributed to AGW-caused "climate change".
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Author Resplandy has responded and thanked Mr Lewis for catching the mistakes.
A Major Problem With The Resplandy Paper [judithcurry.com]
Resplandy et al. Part 2 [judithcurry.com]
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The freshwater problems of these islands is not due to climate. It is almost always a case of local overuse. When the islanders pump to much fresh water out of the island, salt water impinges. Overuse of freshwater can also cause land subsidence.
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The freshwater problems of these islands is not due to climate. It is almost always a case of local overuse. When the islanders pump to much fresh water out of the island, salt water impinges. Overuse of freshwater can also cause land subsidence.
Nope, not in this case. The island's population and water use has fallen dramatically over the last 20 years. This is because of climate. Specifically, sea level.
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No this is because it's a shithole and no one wants to live there.
That's an odd comment. Are you always an asshole, or only on slashdot?
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Re:Theory vs. data (Score:4, Insightful)
has no change in land area over the last 60 years [tradingeconomics.com].
Obviously. Do you actually know how much the sea water was rising during the last 60 years?
So how the fuck should they have a noticeable as in measurable change in land area?
Data shows that coral-based islands (like the Marshalls) are growing. Eighty percent are either stable or growing. ... perfect for an area that has 1200 islands and only a few handful of actually inhabitated islands.
Yes, the islands that have 10m in diameter are growing to 11m
And the thing you forget the most: the problem is not area, it is hight. While corrals grow in some areas, they die in others due to many factors, one is heat. We don't know yet if your cherry picked islands will have corrals that will survive. So while an island might get area, its hight does not change. So no idea about what bullshit you are nitpicking.
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Re:Theory vs. data (Score:4, Informative)
Most people, at most beaches, would not even notice this difference over that great a time period. In fact it is indistinguishable in comparison photographs even on certain Florida beaches which are well-known to be subsiding in addition to any ocean rise.
Just FYI, I have noticed over a period of years that this "Angel" person has often been an opinionated, agressive, and mean-spirited arguer. My best suggestion is that he/she is probably not worth your time.
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Just FYI, I have noticed over a period of years that this "Angel" person has often been an opinionated, agressive, and mean-spirited arguer. My best suggestion is that he/she is probably not worth your time. :P
Nevertheless you support my point, thank you
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You have presented zero evidence to the contrary of my claims. ...
You need evidence for common sense? Wow
https://ocean.si.edu/ecosystem... [si.edu]
https://www.leisurepro.com/blo... [leisurepro.com]
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then how do we know they are disappearing From people living there telling us. ... well, your typo. Not your misconception.
and not growing or stable like the vast majority^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H a few hand picked of other coral atoll islands Fixed that misconception of yours
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https://www.leisurepro.com/blo... [leisurepro.com]
80% of all corral reefs are shrinking or dying ... no idea why you claim otherwise.
Don't Atolls naturally Collapse Back into the Sea? (Score:2)
I was under the impression that atolls naturally collapse back into the sea over a period of several hundreds of years.
Ocean level changes not with standing, isn't this part of the natural collapse of land back into the ocean?
Domes (Score:2)
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Erh... if the ANTarctic ice melts you could get some new real estate. All the arctic ice melting is going to give you is a nice fishing hole, provided you have some real estate in Greenland.
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Give it time.
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We already have a solution to this (Score:2)
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Funnily Swiss naval maps use 1m lower (or was it higher? I forgot) as "agreed zero" for water depths than the rest of Europe. Which is a pain in the ass for Swiss who have to navigate in tidal water. No one knows why they did that. Obviously swiss people mostly use local maps anyway so thy don't have that problem ... so much to "defining water depths/height".
Simple solution (Score:4, Funny)
Sell them to climate change deniers. By their logic, it should be a nice deal.
Floating islands (Score:2, Interesting)
This is an old post describing how coral atolls float and effectively keep pace with the rise and fall of sea level.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/20... [wattsupwiththat.com]
And there have been numerous recent reports showing that island (e.g. Tuvalu) is indeed growing.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/20... [wattsupwiththat.com]
From Nature communications:
Patterns of island change and persistence offer alternate adaptation pathways for atoll nations
Paul S. Kench, Murray R. Ford & Susan D. Owen
Abstract
Sea-level rise and climatic change threaten the existen
Re:Floating islands (Score:5, Informative)
Sand based atolls are effectively floating on slightly more sense layers and most of them are in areas where that other layer is flat. The atolls dissolve on one side and get built up on the other by a mix of consistent ocean currents and prevailing winds. That causes the islands to creep along keeping their basic shape until they hit depression or hill on the lower layer. Depressions tends to destroy the atoll and the hills tend to split the atolls in two.
These sinking islands are going to sink weather global warming is true or false but global warming always gets drug into conversation about them which sidelines the discussion.
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you are the one backwards.
there is no problem here with the islands, only expected behavior.
trying to whine about global warming and invoking an imagined problem with these islands is wrong.
Relocate, elevate. What about respirate? (Score:2, Interesting)
Everything is either or with you guys. So what if it's bleedin' damp.
Why the hell (Score:2, Interesting)
Are seemingly half the articles on /. about "global warming" today?
Re: Why the hell (Score:2)
What I'm wondering is how come a well established position in science is rejected by the majority here. What's next, vaccines?
Not the UK? (Score:2)
Re:China will rescue them. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, China isn't "re-developing low lying islands".. The Chinese are devastating and covering up living coral atolls by dredging in order to CREATE islands, in order to claim sovereignty over vast stretches of international water and to fortify those artificial islands to prevent or restrict commerce through the South China Sea. The Chinese don't care about islands; they care about dominance.
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Re: China will rescue them. (Score:5, Insightful)
Suddenly China are the bad guys now?
It's not really about that but since you demand a simple answer... "Sure."
Because they're taking the very rational step of trying to keep the Americans away from their territory?
Lots of reasons but this 'expansionism' has nothing to do with "trying to keep the Americans away" and everything to do with the Chinese government eyeballing their neighbors' undersea resources.
It's Tibet all over again.
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Because they're taking the very rational step of trying to keep the Americans away from their territory? Huh?
I'm glad you followed that sentence with "Huh?" It's an incredible display of self realisation that you have no frigging idea what you're talking about.
Even when shitting on America it's important to remind people, NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT AMERICA.
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The first comment in the thread concerned China's actions regarding certain small, low-lying islands. If you want to invite comparison with America's actions regarding such, that might be considered a legitimate point of discussion. But, no, you're not doing anything like that, you're trying to derail the conversation and force your completely unrelated agenda down our throats instead and it's not at all welcome. KGFY.
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A really odd tack to take, complaining about "wahtaboutism" when this sub-thread exists entirely because of your own whataboutist post upthread, seeking to haul in unrelated "whatabouts".
Disingenuous hypocrite much?
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This is the second time in a relatively short period you've tried to demonize Obama for decisions he had nothing to do with. The authorization for the military strike came from the local command structure in Afghanistan, not from Obama ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org] ) Do you really think the president of the United States is consulted every single time our arm forces shoot at something. That would be ridiculous.
So my question to you is, do you make this stuff up your self or do you just gullibly believ
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You're ridiculous. If Obama didn't directly authorize the action then he can't be held accountable for it anymore then a parent can't be held accountable for their grown childrens actions. Likewise, if a manager rapes a subordinate is the CEO in the wrong?
Yes, something very fucked up happened and there are people who should have been punished very severely for it but once again, Obama had nothing to do with this.
You really do just want to find fault in Obama don't you?
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Right. This is what I get when I look up the Nuremberg laws as you have told me to do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] , https://www.britannica.com/top... [britannica.com]
So laws forbidding Jews and German from marrying and just generally removing rights from Jews have something to do with this how?
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I'm just gonna leave this here: https://www.amnestyusa.org/is-... [amnestyusa.org]
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I'm deliberately being obtuse? You consistently just make shit up on the fly and I'm being obtuse for calling you on it. How on fucking earth would the Nuremberg trails have resulted in "laws"?
On top of that you link to a post about drone strikes that literally has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Your post is an intellectual mess that points to nothing but complete confusion.
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It's just frustrating how *uneducated* you are and how requiring you to understand something results in you deliberately misunderstanding.
Fine, yes, I was talking about the Nuremberg principles, not the Nuremberg laws. The two are so easily confused that the Wikipedia page has a disambiguation page attached. Now that I look, the Nuremberg laws page has a disambiguation notice directing you to the Nuremberg principles about war crimes, which you deliberately ignored. You really didn't see it there and c
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Nice. Not just making shit up for once.
Sadly you haven't been reading my posts so for at least a third time now, Obama did not authorize the strikes so there is nothing to punish him for. He literally had no role in the bombing of the hospital. The only people who can be held responsible for what happened using the laws that you list are the officers who did in fact authorize the strike, who were local in Afghanistan.
Once again for you in all caps OBAMA DID NOT AUTHORIZE THE STRIKE AGAINST THAT HOSPITAL IN
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I also feel the need to question you on this.
"Fine, yes, I was talking about the Nuremberg principles, not the Nuremberg laws."
So according to you, you were asking for Obama to be prosecuted under the Nuremberg "principles". How exactly does that work?
See, either they're "laws" and Obama can be prosecuted for violating them, or they're "principles" and he can't. In other words, your explanation is as meaningless as your initial statement.
Please keep in mind my core point that Obama did not authorize a thing
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Seas are rising - Stop lying (Score:3)
2. That Wikipedia page doesn't show shit. You can't "plainly" see anything.
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1. The IPCC is more political than scientific. You'll need a better argument than an appeal to a political authority.
2. The PHOTOS on the Wikipedia page clearly show that the waterline of the stonework in 1865 is pretty much even with the waterline in 2014.
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That's a really stupid statement. You're hopeless.
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Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (ipcc) says - surprise! - Climate Change is real!
How about say, using an objective source?
Re:The Seas AREN'T Rising.. (Score:5, Funny)
You can plainly see that the sea level rise since 1865 to the present day is approximately zero.
Have you heard of "tides" at all?
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As a retired Navy officer with a BS in Physics, I will admit to a certain amount of familiarity with the concepts and mechanisms of tides. I've even sailed on the ebbing tides. But "rising sea levels" aren't caused by tides.
Re: The Seas AREN'T Rising.. (Score:2, Informative)
Its possible he meant to say that the variance due to tides is much greater than the current sea level rise and therefor if the picture is taken at the appropriate time it could mask the sea level rise observed in the photo..,
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So, the water marks on the photo you mentioned before are not caused by tides? So you can tell us which mark is from 1862 and which from 1950? Good luck with that ...
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You should have another think about my admittedly facetious question.
Not that you should need to, since others have already explained my point, and you've apparently avoided addressing it.
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If you're certain about this, buy some real estate on the Marshall Islands. I heard prices are a steal these days, plots right at the beach front for a bargain!
Better buy today! They might be gone tomorrow!
Re:The Seas AREN'T Rising.. (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. Foreigners can not buy land in the Marshall Islands.
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Not a chance; latency there is a bitch.
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Re: The Seas AREN'T Rising.. (Score:5, Insightful)
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And the seas are rising faster than even in geologic history.
Ever think that people like you, the ones that just make shit up like what I quoted here, are the fucking problem? You are a dishonest lying fuck, proven with this quote, and yet nominated yourself as a vocal spokesperson for AGW.
How about you just STFU forever you disgusting dishonest fuck. Your kind hurts every conversation.
Your link proves him right (Score:5, Informative)
If you read your own link, you'll find since 1862 sea level has risen about 0.25 feet. That is hardly anything, and again, if you look at the data you posted it has actually FALLEN very slightly since 1950.
Also doesn't the rather large jump around 1950 with no other rise since kind of speak to the measurement method having changed?
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Quite the skilled propagandist you are. ".25 of a foot" huh? Who measures seal level rises that way? And if you read the link you'd see a fair amount of fluctuation. Arbitrarily picking dates and saying "Hey, it's dropped" reminds me of the "There's been no temperature rise for 14 years" meme that was doing the rounds last year.
Sea levels are rising. Not only is picking one location and saying "Huh, no rise there" meaningless, but in this case the GGP didn't even pick an example that actually showed no r
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It is unfortunately common for liberal ACs to resort to threats of violence and homophobic slander in the face of reason and facts.
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But none of the nations that ARE bound by the treaty, such as France and Germany, are reducing their CO2 emissions at all.
You are an idiot. All countries are reducing their output significantly.
Germany reduced its CO2 output greatly, we are still ahead of the USA. And we do this continuously since a long time, so the effect is much bigger than the puny reduction the USA did in the last 5-10 years. As far as I know the grant nation of USA is in terms of "percentual" reduction at rank 2 or rank 3. BEHIND Ger
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I heard North Korea is planning something like that already.
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Warmer waters are a precondition for dinoflagellae, the nitrates give them a food source that allows them to saturate the water when they die making it anaerobic in addition to the neurotoxic domoic acid they excrete. Both are required.
Stop pretending you're a marine biologist who knows definitively what you're talking about when you don't. Red tide favorable conditions are indeed obviously part of climate change in some places, and you don't know how much.
No, we don't need some layman's loose guess abou
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I am not a "climate denier". Since "Globull warming" is more of a RELIGIOUS nature, the proper term is "Climate Heretic".
I am a Climate Heretic.
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But the Sun probably WILL engulf the Earth! In 3-4 BILLION years, and assuming that we don't move the Earth into a more distant orbit. (Larry Niven figured out HOW, even though we're millennia away from having the technology to do it.)
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It's definitely not the real APK. I have old old beef, and almost kinship too, with APK, which I've tried to bait him to reveal (so I can then wind him up - nobody's perfect). No satisfaction. lol! The reason he can't go back that far in his "memory" is because this guy isn't as good as APK was at managing his AC posts - maybe APK manually kept an offline database of all his AC CID's and SID's.
The original APK was an intelligent and amusing sparring partner, and he used the hidden mechanisms of /. with skil
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Also, where's my hook-nosed bitch troll gone? I enjoyed the jewess rant I was getting below my post every time I BTFO'd someone with facts!