Some Birds Are Excellent Tool-Makers (abc.net.au) 81
brindafella writes: Veterinary scientists from Viena have shown that Goffin's cockatoos can do an excellent job of remaking cardboard into tools to get rewards. This follows on from earlier experiments with the New Caledonian crow that can select tools for its purposes. So, birds are definitely not "bird-brained." "[The study] tells us that the cockatoos' mind is highly flexible and that they can modify their solution to a problem in order to save effort," said Alice Auersperg, a cognitive biologist at the University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna and lead author of the paper.
The Australian Broadcast Company explains how the study was conducted: "[S]ix trained birds were given a piece of cardboard and placed in front of a cage that had food accessible through a small hole, but placed at different distances away. The birds used their beak to cut strips of cardboard they then used to reach the food. Importantly, when the food was close, the birds made a shorter strip. When it was far away, they made a longer strip. But when the researchers made the hole in the cage smaller, only one of the birds was able to fashion their cardboard tool to be narrow enough to fit through the hole. The successful bird was the only female in the group, and the researchers think she was able to do this because her beak was small enough to make a narrow tool."
The Australian Broadcast Company explains how the study was conducted: "[S]ix trained birds were given a piece of cardboard and placed in front of a cage that had food accessible through a small hole, but placed at different distances away. The birds used their beak to cut strips of cardboard they then used to reach the food. Importantly, when the food was close, the birds made a shorter strip. When it was far away, they made a longer strip. But when the researchers made the hole in the cage smaller, only one of the birds was able to fashion their cardboard tool to be narrow enough to fit through the hole. The successful bird was the only female in the group, and the researchers think she was able to do this because her beak was small enough to make a narrow tool."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
He's in trouble because he hasn't washed his socks in six years and nobody likes it.
Re: (Score:2)
If they "made it known," then why don't you know when the activities it accuses him of happened?
You care, and you still don't know. Maybe nobody knows but me, the reporter, and the prosecutor.
It doesn't fucking matter what you think of the rape charges. That was my point. The maximum penalty he was facing was less than what he already sentenced himself to in that fucking closet. And now, he finally has what he always wanted; a sealed indictment. From the United States. For helping to hack our election.
The s
Magpies and Currawongs, too (Score:2)
I've seen some wonderful things done by those. From simple stuff like holding food down with their claws and ripping bits off with their beak, to using a twig for - something, I couldn't get close enough to see exactly what, but it was a magpie poking at something on or in the ground with twig held in its beak.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:1)
I was lucky enough to have a bunch of juvenile Australian magpies playing in my front yard each morning. I was amazed at how sophisticated their games were: playing 'mugby' with any object they found interesting; hanging upside down and taking turns to pull each other to the ground; teasing other animals... it was like watching cats or dogs at play. After feeding them little bits of roast chook or raw mince a few times, I had a whole Summer's worth of entertainment as they grew up.
Re: Magpies and Currawongs, too (Score:3)
Australian magpies are anarchistic punks with an eye phobia. They'd be great CEOs.
They attack without mercy, they will murder baseball caps (although I have some sympathy there), but if you paint eyes on things, they'll run off.
The kea is nowhere near as vicious. It's more of a thief/highway robber, that will rip your car tyres apart unless you feed it.
Intelligence-wise, I suspect the kea is smarter. The kakapo is truly the dunce, as demonstrated when Stephen Fry remade Last Chance to See. They look great,
Re: (Score:2)
I had a potential chance to work in Australia when I was young. Might have tried a bit harder if I'd known about these little buggers, they sound like fun.
Bullying on Slashdot (Score:2)
I don't differentiate you from the other bullies. Note "other". Verbal and textual abuse are never acceptable, and that includes the abuse in the post I'm referring to.
Things to do:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rf... [ietf.org]
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/games... [faqs.org]
(B1 applies to all Internet posts)
Things not to do:
https://groups.google.com/foru... [google.com]
I doubt you, or any other troll, will read any of this, or care even if you do. Why should you? If nothing matters and nothing exists, then netiquette just means better quality noth
Re: (Score:2)
Unfounded accusations? Check. Overselling one's intellect? Check. Composing and selling straw men? Check.
Trump, is that you?
Advanced birds (Score:2, Funny)
...and then a large, strong, handsome bird saw the wisdom of division of labor and forced the small toolmaking bird into servitude making tools for all birds for the greater good, becoming Avian Stalin.
Re: Advanced birds (Score:2)
Interesting comparison. Some birds do divide labour. They're called the successful species. Some don't, they're called extinct.
Stalin didn't divide labour, quite the opposite. His entire philosophy was about eliminating the divisions. Division is a capitalist idea.
Division of labor started about 12,000-14,000 years earlier.
Re: (Score:2)
Division is a capitalist idea.
Each according to their abilities is not a capitalist idea, but it is a description of division of labor.
Re: (Score:2)
Around 11,000 BC, labour was divided. I'm not sure ability had anything to do with it, as brewing was exclusively controlled by women. They're perfectly good brewers, but it's obvious enough ability wasn't the deciding factor.
pffft (Score:2)
Sure, crows are smart with tools, but they have shitty social skills.
Re: (Score:2)
I take it you're referring to that video of the three crows scolding, pecking and then raping that other, dead crow?
I've heard about primates doing worse.
Re:pffft (Score:5, Funny)
Without the larger one investing his own time and effort creating the opportunity the smaller one would have been sitting around unemployed.
What are you, boy - one of them thar cormanusts?
Re:pffft (Score:5, Interesting)
You can easily measure the social skills of a bird species by how large of groups they form for shared activities.
I've seen groups of many thousands of crows who were gathered for no apparent purpose other than some shared social activity. It wasn't mating season, or near a change in weather season, so I'm guessing it was election season.
Just because crows like combat sports doesn't automatically mean they lack social skills.
Re: pffft (Score:2)
Most animals do. Humans are pathetic, worse than chimpanzees in some regards.
Social skills are something that emerge when resources are plentiful, although you'd have plenty of resources more of the time with better social skills. As such, you'd expect social skills to be subject to evolutionary pressures. They aren't. Evolution doesn't function on emergent phenomena.
(Chimpanzees occasionally reach a true stone age, complete with cooked food. They lose the skills as easily as they acquire them.)
Re: (Score:2)
First time I read that, I thought you said cows. [reddit.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Husbands hardly ever get screwed.
Crows... (Score:4, Interesting)
...have been observed to make original tools (ie: not derivative from prior direct or indirect experience or observation) for original problems not encountered in the wild.
This creates some interesting problems, not least for those people who insist all human creativity is derivative, never inventive. However, that's off topic.
We also know African Grey parrots can understand the concept of zero and basic mathematics.
We now have a better understanding of which birds have which sorts of intelligence. It would seem logical, if it hasn't already been done, to use the 9.1T, 13T and next-gen MRI scanners to identify specific structures that might relate to such intelligence.
Currently, the "whole brain" simulators that exist can't simulate whole human brains. They could certainly simulate the relevant structures in an avian brain, though.
Once we know what those structures actually do, we can devise experiments via proper models. If the simulator says the brain can learn X with a level of difficulty of Y, you have an experiment. You can study a random assortment of crows or whatever and see if, on average, they do indeed learn X with a difficulty of Y.
In that case, your model is good enough to describe, define and parameterize non-human intelligence. Which means you can start to do useful things with animal intelligence studies.
Re: (Score:3)
Currently, the "whole brain" simulators that exist can't simulate whole human brains. They could certainly simulate the relevant structures in an avian brain, though.
Ehm no, not by far. There is some progress in the field when it comes to simulating the neurons from insects and worms.
However, (mapping out and) simulating an avian brain is several magnitudes more complex. It's not that our supercomputers cannot do that, cause maybe they could - especially since no-one said the simulation had to be real-time. It's that it is almost impossible to functionally describe and consequently emulate a brain due to it's sheer complexity.
To put shortly: we still have no f*g clue ho
Re: (Score:1)
Current whole brain simulators can manage a million neurons at 1/30000th speed.
Since we don't need the whole brain, just the region dealing in problem solving, a million neurons should be adequate. Nor do we need it to be accurate - if all we want is an abstract model that defines a group of problems different types of bird can solve, we need it to be no more accurate than necessary to classify problem solving structures. It doesn't need to reproduce them perfectly.
Re: (Score:2)
Since we don't need the whole brain, just the region dealing in problem solving..
..and since we don't have any idea yet how 'thought' actually works in a living brain, how do you propose we're able to simulate it? It could involve other parts of the brain as well, even if it's in a tiny way.
Re: (Score:2)
To put shortly: we still have no f*g clue how complex brains work.
Which is why so-called 'self driving cars' are so incredibly inept at what they're supposed to be able to do. They're using the wrong approach to AI, only focusing on one aspect of brain function. As you point out, we don't have any idea yet how the mechanism that allows a brain to actually 'think' works, therefore we can't build a machine or write software that does the same thing.
Parrots... (Score:2)
I had an Amazon Parrot for 18 years. He was a great talker, but didn't do it unless he knew for sure what he was saying. One morning... He had been saying (and understanding), "How are you? Good?" for years. That morning he said, "How are you? Good? Say 'Yup'."
I now have a Green Cheeked Conure. Words are his favorite toys. Just one example..... One day, when he was a few/several months old, he realized that "I" and "me" mean basically the same thing. He just thought this was wonderful - he was
Re: ...for a small value of "excellent". (Score:2)
Why would they want to make one?
They have no use for laser printers. And they probably wouldn't be interested in making anything for someone who was insulting them.
Birds have a sense of magnetic fields. You're much more likely to see them invent an extension to their natural navigation system.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would kids in China want to make iPhones and luxury handbags?
They have no use for them.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, they do. People make junk commodities to sell in exchange for something they want. It's the basis of all trade that you exchange low value for high value. That is a use. Indirect, yes, but still a use.
Stop giving the kids money and they'll stop making the goods, because then the goods will indeed have no use.
Crows have no interest in anything you could supply. You don't speak crow, assuming they have language, so you can't barter.
Re: (Score:2)
Crows have no interest in anything you could supply.
Table scraps? I promise you that corvids of all types are interested in those.
You don't speak crow, assuming they have language, so you can't barter.
You don't have to speak their language, you only have to communicate [smithsonianmag.com].
Re: (Score:2)
Nobody that I know of speaks Doggish or Muttuese. But they're perfectly aware that if they intimidate some woolly human food that's alive so it goes into the pen, or find some feathery human food that's been shot and fallen in the long grass, they'll get tickled and fussed over and get some food for themselves. And they know they get different food, they mustn't take the human food.
And that's dogs, FFS, which are about the second s
Re: (Score:2)
Feel free to ignore the fact that it took 10,000 years for humans and wolves to come to that arrangement, and another 10,000 to domesticated wolves to the point where that arrangement is bred in.
Tell me how you're doing after you've worked with crows for 20,000 years. Otherwise, the comparison is false. You're not a time lord? Oh, then I guess you'll just need to accept you can't make the comparison.
Re: (Score:2)
Well done. You're officially smarter than jd ( 1658 ).
Re: (Score:2)
Dont forget penguins. (Score:3)
I'm an excellent tool-maker. (Score:2)
Definitely an excellent tool-maker.
Tyop (Score:2)
Should say "Veterinary scientists from Vienna", not "Viena"...
(But at least it doesn't say "Austrian Broadcast Company".)
Re: (Score:2)
When you're typing with a beak, it's easy to lose the thread.
Parrots demand Google Glass!