Bizarre Particles Keep Flying Out of Antarctica's Ice, and They Might Shatter Modern Physics (livescience.com) 158
There's something mysterious coming up from the frozen ground in Antarctica, and it could break physics as we know it. From a report: Physicists don't know what it is exactly. But they do know it's some sort of cosmic ray -- a high-energy particle that's blasted its way through space, into the Earth, and back out again. But the particles physicists know about -- the collection of particles that make up what scientists call the Standard Model (SM) of particle physics -- shouldn't be able to do that.
Sure, there are low-energy neutrinos that can pierce through miles upon miles of rock unaffected. But high-energy neutrinos, as well as other high-energy particles, have "large cross-sections." That means that they'll almost always crash into something soon after zipping into the Earth and never make it out the other side. And yet, since March 2016, researchers have been puzzling over two events in Antarctica where cosmic rays did burst out from the Earth, and were detected by NASA's Antarctic Impulsive Transient Antenna (ANITA) -- a balloon-borne antenna drifting over the southern continent.
ANITA is designed to hunt cosmic rays from outer space, so the high-energy neutrino community was buzzing with excitement when the instrument detected particles that seemed to be blasting up from Earth instead of zooming down from space. Because cosmic rays shouldn't do that, scientists began to wonder whether these mysterious beams are made of particles never seen before. Since then, physicists have proposed all sorts of explanations for these "upward going" cosmic rays, from sterile neutrinos (neutrinos that rarely ever bang into matter) to "atypical dark matter distributions inside the Earth," referencing the mysterious form of matter that doesn't interact with light.
Sure, there are low-energy neutrinos that can pierce through miles upon miles of rock unaffected. But high-energy neutrinos, as well as other high-energy particles, have "large cross-sections." That means that they'll almost always crash into something soon after zipping into the Earth and never make it out the other side. And yet, since March 2016, researchers have been puzzling over two events in Antarctica where cosmic rays did burst out from the Earth, and were detected by NASA's Antarctic Impulsive Transient Antenna (ANITA) -- a balloon-borne antenna drifting over the southern continent.
ANITA is designed to hunt cosmic rays from outer space, so the high-energy neutrino community was buzzing with excitement when the instrument detected particles that seemed to be blasting up from Earth instead of zooming down from space. Because cosmic rays shouldn't do that, scientists began to wonder whether these mysterious beams are made of particles never seen before. Since then, physicists have proposed all sorts of explanations for these "upward going" cosmic rays, from sterile neutrinos (neutrinos that rarely ever bang into matter) to "atypical dark matter distributions inside the Earth," referencing the mysterious form of matter that doesn't interact with light.
Re: (Score:1)
"Miles and miles" as stated != the diameter of the Earth, which is thousands and thousands of miles. You misread a vague sentence, it's going to happen in physics reporting to a lay audience.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Okay, if it's not a contradiction, then it's plain wrong. Neutrinos go through the diameter of the Earth all the time.
Re:Science Journalism (Score:5, Informative)
Low-energy neutrinos = pass through
High-energy neutrinos = bounce off everything, BUT we are seeing them coming from our planet. So if they are not bouncing off things, then are they being generated? or what is the mechanism that makes them appear to be coming from the planet.?
Direction of travel is determined similar to following a traveller who has a strobe light attached. When you identify the spot you see the light initially, then the same light shows up awhile later at another spot, you can determine the back-azimuth to the originating dot. (collector is large enough to see 2 or more interactions within the collection material)
Re: Science Journalism (Score:1)
I suspect they might have thought of that though, as in scientific terms this is known as FUCKING OBVIOUS
Re: (Score:1)
http://cds.cern.ch/record/374272/files/9812262.pdf
The penetration of ultrahigh energy neutrinos through the Earth, with energies E greater
than 10 TeV or so, can be strongly affected by neutrino interactions with matter. This is due
to the increase of neutrino cross sections with energy. At these ultrahigh energies we have
significant attenuation of the neutrino fluxes on transversing through the Earth and, indeed,
complete absorption for energies above about 108 GeV or so, depending on the nadir angle of
the ne
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe there's a hole or a tunnel.
Weak Interaction (Score:5, Informative)
We have known for several decades that the electromagnetic and weak interactions are really two aspects of the same electroweak force. What makes the weak force different from the electromagnetic force is that the carriers of the weak force, the W and Z bosons, have large masses ~90 times that of a proton whereas the electromagnetic force is transmitted by massles photons.
At low energies when particles collide there is not enough energy to create "real" (on-shell) W and Z bosons and so it is extremely rare that particles will interact via the weak force at low energy. So, if this is the ONLY way you have to interact you basically hardly every interact at all. This is what happens for low energy neutrinos.
However, at _really_ high energy - about 10,000 times or more the energy of a proton in the Large Hadron Collider - collisions of neutrinos with matter have enough energy to create real W and Z bosons. When this happens the chance of a weak interaction starts to become similar to that of an electromagnetic interaction and neutrinos can no longer pass through the Earth.
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps you should have read a little further where it clarifies that. Did your finger get tired?
I know...I Know! (Score:2)
So.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:1)
I don't think this reference applies...
(Currently rewatching SG1/Atlantis with my wife, at S09 and S02 respectively)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
I think they finally completed the massive calculations they needed to open the Antarctica gate. The breathtakingly large computations supplied by their scheme... bitcoin. Everyone knows this....
Re: (Score:2)
So we can update the "what is bitcoin" Analogy to;-
"Imagine if leaving your car idling 24/7 solved sudokus that you could trade for heroin, and also open up some sort of hell gate to ancient eskimo pharos"
I wonder if these Things can mutate? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Then we might need someone to fight them. Perhaps some sort of predator.
Mutate? Maybe. Aliens? No (Score:5, Informative)
One way around having all the high energy neutrinos interacting with the Earth is something called a sterile neutrino [wikipedia.org]. This is a hypothetical new "flavour" of neutrino which does not interact at all. Some experiments have claimed to observe evidence for them but I think it is fair to say that many of us particle physicists remain rather unconvinced by the data so far.
However, if these sterile neutrinos do exist then they may allow neutrinos to survive passage through the Earth even at realy high energies. Essentialy a high energy neutrino "mutates" into a sterile neutrino, flies through the Earth and then mutates back into a known-flavour of neutrino, interacts in the ice and is picked up by ANITA.
There are a lot of ifs involved at this stage. The first thing is that we need to confirm (or not) ANITA's observation and interestingly (at least for those of us who work on it!) the IceCube experiment is probably in one of the best positions to do this. If confirmed then things will get a lot more interesting but while you are waiting for that expect lots of crazy ideas (like yours but with equations) from theorists trying to explain it!
It's not *that* oblate (Score:2)
Isn't it weird if this only happens in Antarctica? But if it happens everywhere and nobody noticed before, isn't that weird?
Streetlight Effect (Score:2)
Isn't it weird if this only happens in Antarctica?
No, that is just the Streetlight effect [wikipedia.org]. The ice in Antarctica makes an ideal medium for detecting these particles so it is not surprising that we see them there.
Re: (Score:2)
Since the electrons that make aurora bounce or reflect (particle or wave, you choose) as they ride down Earth's magnetic lines and go back up, perhaps the high energy neutrinos also bounce from a direct hit or "reflect" under the right conditions. One coming in from the side might undergo a glancing blow and be re-directed upwards. I'd kind of expect a bit of anomalous leakage when you are talking billions of particles.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I was implying that the electroweak force may have a similar mechanism to the electromagnetic force, not that neutrinos would interact electromagnetically. Once the energies are high enough, if they interact (weak force) at all, there may be a set of conditions that result in the neutrino "bouncing" back the way it came.
Re: (Score:2)
I was implying that the electroweak force may have a similar mechanism to the electromagnetic force, not that neutrinos would interact electromagnetically.
What you asked was whether neutrinos would ever bounce up and down the field lines like electrons. This requires an EM interaction since the field lines you talk about are from a magnetic field. This is not an interaction between matter and neutrinos which can proceed by any type of interaction that both atoms and neutrinos feel but an interaction between a particle and a field where the interaction type has to be the one producing the field.
Hence as I said, it is not possible for neutrinos to bounce up
Re: (Score:2)
I am replying mostly because of your strident tone when attempting to lecture me. Once again you missed what I said in your haste to refute. it. I never said the neutrinos would interact with magnetic lines, my second comment even specifically says so. Do try to keep up. As for deflection, how about a direct hit on a nucleus, or even perhaps a quark within a nucleus. Rebound can be a bitch.
Re: (Score:2)
I never said the neutrinos would interact with magnetic lines...
Ummm, yes you did and I quote:
Since the electrons that make aurora bounce or reflect (particle or wave, you choose) as they ride down Earth's magnetic lines and go back up, perhaps the high energy neutrinos also bounce from a direct hit or "reflect" under the right conditions.
You give the example of electrons reflecting and riding on field lines and then ask if neutrinos can do the same thing under the right circumstances. Hence you asked if neutrinos can also reflect along magnetic field lines. You cannot ride along the field lines without an EM interaction to tie you too them. You might not have intended to ask that but that is, indeed, exactly what you asked. Do try to keep up with the basics of the English, or indeed any other, language where
Re: (Score:2)
In all instances above I am referring to the electroweak interactions.
The analogy you keep tripping over is simple: Given the example of electrons "reflecting" when interacting with an electromagnetic field, I postulate a similar mechanism may redirect a neutrino when it interacts with an electroweak force. Stop trying for the strawman and claiming I'm trying to say neutrinos interact electromagnetically.
Re: (Score:2)
So, the options are... (Score:2)
1) Originating from within the Earth's crust.
2) Bouncing off something in the Earth's crust.
3) Leaking through the Earth from an undetected particle beam impact on the other side, originating deep in space.
Who wants to bet on one?
Re: (Score:2)
1) Originating from within the Earth's crust. 2) Bouncing off something in the Earth's crust. 3) Leaking through the Earth from an undetected particle beam impact on the other side, originating deep in space.
Who wants to bet on one?
A very good chance of just that. If every claim of something something shatter modern physics actually did shatter modern physics, modern physics would be irrecoverably shattered long ago.
Re: (Score:1)
Yea, we all know that the real story here is the horrifying lack of diligence surrounding monitoring of cosmic ray impacts on our planet and atmosphere, but I really like the romantic notion of some sort of exotic matter having laid unnoticed for centuries under the ice pack until one day it melted a bit too much.
Re:So, the options are... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think I'll bet on 4) They made a mistake.
And however unlikely it might be, there's also 5) They're lying.
Re: (Score:3)
8) A glitch in the simulation.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
No bets, this is so strange and unexpected that option 4 - some sort of unexpected failure in the sensors or the data processing/interpretation - seems to be the most likely result.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Oh, I like this one because it's from Star Trek.
Re: (Score:2)
Which episode BTW?
I'm not saying it was aliens... (Score:5, Funny)
but it was aliens
Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. (Score:4, Informative)
Yog-Sothoth is the gate.
Yog-Sothoth is the key.
Re: (Score:2)
I really hope this doesn't lead to A Colder War...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Colder_War
Hmm.... (Score:3)
I wonder how this relates to the findings that are staring to become apparent at CERN/LHC showing unusual decays for (I believe if I recall correctly - please correct me if I am mistaken) muons into electrons (or perhaps it was the other way, I'll have to see if I can locate the reference)? I read an article recently claiming that they are approaching 5-sigma on something they originally thought was just an experimental apparatus artifact but now is strongly believed to be "New Physics"? Could these two things be related?
Here is an article referencing what I recalled.... (Score:4, Interesting)
https://futurism.com/measureme... [futurism.com].
Now, it appears I was mistaken, they are somewhere between a 2.5 and 4 sigma, but, it is still under study. Interesting? Someone qualified care to comment?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There's only one law of quantum mechanics: Whenever you think you've wrapped your head around a concept, it gets weirder.
The Thing (Score:3)
Nobody of my generation is surprised by this news. Ever since we saw The Thing we've been expecting it.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0... [imdb.com]
They Might Shatter Modern Physics ! (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
You'd think we'd store modern physics on a durable media. There's so many storage materials that are not prone to shattering.
Re:They Might Shatter Modern Physics ! (Score:4, Funny)
Most materials would shatter at Antarctic temperatures. Hopefully this isn't the only modern physics, but just a backup in cold storage.
Ever seen the film Volcano? (Score:2)
I'm not saying there is anything happening there and surely some of you will doubt my sanity but is it really such an implausible theory? We only managed to probe a tiny fracti
Re:Ever seen the film Volcano? (Score:5, Funny)
What if those "upward going" particles are a sign that something is happening in the mantle deep under the North Pole
What if you knew where Antarctica was located?
To be pedantic, they are coming from that directio (Score:3)
Apparently they are coming from the direction of the North Pole, through the South Pole ..
Bad cable (Score:1)
Well, I guess we know where that faulty cable that skewed the first OPERA results https://science.slashdot.org/s... [slashdot.org] ended up.
My hypothesis (Score:3, Funny)
Tachyons (Score:4, Informative)
Obviously tachyons -- since they travel backwards through time they would be observed as traveling upwards.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, we need to be on the look-out for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Frozen alien ship! (Score:1)
Itâ(TM)s the reptilian mothership frozen in the Antarctic ice for millennia about to be freed by their engineered global warming! It is well known reptilians need the heat and their terraforming to free the ship and provide a suitable habitat is almost here!
Low Level Fusion in the Earths Core (Score:3)
Maybe a slow and uncommon type of fusion at the Earths core.
Add a little Helium 3 and get a Fusion event every few seconds.
Re: (Score:2)
If they're that energetic, they probably came from my son...
Re: (Score:1)
Have you tried the "Antarctic Express" by Kenneth Hite?
Rocket Man II (Score:1)
Mars: "Psst, Earthie, you realize you have funny particles spewing out of your ice hole? See a doctor, 'kay?"
The earth has a huge molten core at the center (Score:1)
Up? Or sort of up? (Score:2)
Did they get an accurate vector measurement or just a 'sort of up' instead of 'sort of down' measurement of the cosmic ray? One possibility to rule out is that the rays didn't travel through the bulk of the Earth, but just cut secants through a small portion of the Earth and then up into the detector. Didn't see this addressed in TFA. If these are coming in at a large angle from perpendicular, then this might not 'break' anything. If not, this would reinforce that this is something interesting.
Influenced by Magnetic, not gravitational fields. (Score:2)
Pardon my presumed ignorance.
Doesn't this suggest whatever has been found is influenced more by the Earth Magnetic field than by its gravitational fields?
If not, can somebody explain why?
All these SciFi references (Score:2)
And yet I'm the first to point out that these readings (obviously false) are planted by the sophons [wikipedia.org]?
Re: (Score:1)
In this case, it's coming out of Montana's butt.
Re: (Score:2)
About 75% (26 of 35) of the Senate seats up for re-election are held by Democrats. The odds are good that the Republicans pick up at least one.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)