Study Finds Probiotics 'Not As Beneficial For Gut Health As Previously Thought' (theguardian.com) 115
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: The gut microbiome is the sum total of all the micro-organisms living in a person's gut, and has been shown to play a huge role in human health. New research has found probiotics -- usually taken as supplements or in foods such as yoghurt, kimchi or kefir -- can hinder a patient's gut microbiome from returning to normal after a course of antibiotics, and that different people respond to probiotics in dramatically different ways. In the first of two papers published in the journal Cell, researchers performed endoscopies and colonoscopies to sample and study the gut microbiomes of people who took antibiotics before and after probiotic consumption. Another group were given samples of their own gut microbiomes collected before consuming antibiotics. The researchers found the microbiomes of those who had taken the probiotics had suffered a "very severe disturbance." "Once the probiotics had colonized the gut, they completely inhibited the return of the indigenous microbiome which was disrupted during antibiotic treatment," said Eran Elinav, an immunologist at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel and lead author on the studies.
The scientists also compared the gut microbiomes of the gut intestinal tract of 25 volunteers with that of their stools. They found that stool bacteria only partially correlated with the microbiomes functioning inside their bodies. "So the fact that we all almost exclusively rely on stool in our microbiome research may not be a reliable way of studying gut microbiome health," said Elinav. In the second paper, the researchers examined the colonization and impact of probiotics on 15 people by sampling within their gastrointestinal tract. They divided the individuals into two groups: one were given a preparation made of 11 strains of very commonly used probiotics and the other were given a placebo. Of those who were given probiotics, he said, "We could group the individuals into two distinct groups: one which resisted the colonisation of the probiotics, and one in which the probiotics colonized the gut and modified the composition of the gut microbiome and the genes of the host individual."
The scientists also compared the gut microbiomes of the gut intestinal tract of 25 volunteers with that of their stools. They found that stool bacteria only partially correlated with the microbiomes functioning inside their bodies. "So the fact that we all almost exclusively rely on stool in our microbiome research may not be a reliable way of studying gut microbiome health," said Elinav. In the second paper, the researchers examined the colonization and impact of probiotics on 15 people by sampling within their gastrointestinal tract. They divided the individuals into two groups: one were given a preparation made of 11 strains of very commonly used probiotics and the other were given a placebo. Of those who were given probiotics, he said, "We could group the individuals into two distinct groups: one which resisted the colonisation of the probiotics, and one in which the probiotics colonized the gut and modified the composition of the gut microbiome and the genes of the host individual."
Re:Probiotics are disgusting. (Score:5, Informative)
Bacteria are are naturally present in raw fruit and vegetables and naturally fermented foods, including naturally fermented bread. Most cold climate cultures relied on fermented vegetables to get them through the winter. Salt fermentation of raw vegetables allows the lactobacillus bacterias to proliferate. Almost all of the sugars are consumed, however most of the rest of nutritional profile is intact, including the vitamin C. In some cases the nutritional profile is enhanced. This is why viking sailors didn't get scurvy. I used to wonder how these past cultures survived the whole winter without vegetables. They actually didn't.
The amount of bacteria in many fermented foods exceeds probiotics dosages. They might not be very beneficial, but they're probably not very harmful either. They certainly have an effect on the gut biome. In some cases certain strains have been shown to be beneficial, through immune system modulation, for certain conditions, such as in the natural treatment of eczma - there are efforts ongoing to commercialize on this.
Re:Probiotics are disgusting. (Score:5, Interesting)
The amount of bacteria in many fermented foods exceeds probiotics dosages. They might not be very beneficial, but they're probably not very harmful either. They certainly have an effect on the gut biome. In some cases certain strains have been shown to be beneficial, through immune system modulation, for certain conditions, such as in the natural treatment of eczma - there are efforts ongoing to commercialize on this.
I actually heard about the probiotic stuff on NPR where they were talking to a researcher. He said the exact opposite - that fermented foods were superior to many probiotic preparations such as pills because they didn't have as much bacteria, and were mixed with other materials that would help with digestion and ensuring that the consumed bacteria didn't overwhelm where they weren't supposed to.
Re:Probiotics are disgusting. (Score:5, Informative)
Probiotics are bacteria. Lactobacillus is a type of bacteria. They are gram-positive, facultative anaerobic (meaning they don't need oxygen) or microaerophilic, rod-shaped, non-spore-forming bacteria. There are lots of different species of lactobacillus. These are "friendly" bacteria that normally live in our digestive, urinary, and genital systems without causing disease. They also occur in nature, for example on raw, fresh vegetables, or fermented foods like yogurt and in dietary supplements. They are generally harmless, sometimes beneficial to almost everyone.
Perhaps on NPR they were saying the fermented foods have less noxiousbacteria than probiotic preparations. There are other kinds of bacteria, that in a person with a well functioning immune system will be harmless, but could cause problems to someone who is already ill. And then there are things like Clostridium botulinum aka botulism - comes from spoiled canned foods, that you definitely don't want to ingest. It is deadly.
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Probiotics are bacteria. Lactobacillus is a type of bacteria.
Uh... Yeah? I didn't say anything different?
Basically, the researcher was saying that bacteria aren't really supposed to be in the small intestine, mostly the colon and lower. Even then, there are limits to how much bacterial loading is good.
Perhaps on NPR they were saying the fermented foods have less noxiousbacteria than probiotic preparations.
Nope, most of the concern was that the probiotic preparations were dumping their loads in inappropriate sections of the gut in inappropriate amounts.
To use an analogy, you put gasoline in your fuel tank. Pouring gasoline over your engine directly isn't good for your
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Re: Probiotics are disgusting. (Score:1)
My biggest concern is the water content of organic food. I assume they donâ(TM)t use filtered water so itâ(TM)s probably full of whatever was dumped upstream.
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I am well aware that there is a symbiosis at work in my digestive tract. But that still doesn't make me feel good about gulping down live cultures of bacteria like that. ICK!
My disgust at the thought of eating probiotics is only dwarfed by the horror I experienced when I learned about non-surgical fecal transplants!
Oh, I am reacting just typing that.
The world is a horrifying place.
Well the fact is, when you were born (assuming not a c-section) you received your initial bacteria for colonization from the fluids in the birth canal. A healthy woman has a balance of all kinds of (mostly beneficial) bacteria living there and this is what becomes your first gut bacteria.
Does it follow that cunnilingus would be better than probiotics?
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But that still doesn't make me feel good about gulping down live cultures of bacteria like that
I suggest you never eat again. Even more don't swallow anything ever, your mouth is full of disgusting live cultures.
Bitter sweet (Score:3, Interesting)
Been saying this for years. I get some people have IBS but the reliance on things like yogurt is crazy.
Fun little tip for a stomach ache - saliva. Let it build in your mouth (without water) and swallow in one gulp. Not only does it give your mouth a natural way to break down any bateria / sugar, but helps to calm your gut. Mouthwash is the nuclear option.
So much of how your body functions comes down to diet. It's interesting they do not go into what foods were consumed.
Re:Bitter sweet (Score:5, Informative)
The "S" stands for syndrome, which identifies it as a collection of symptoms and not a disease. It's a diagnosis only in that there are good ways to treat the symptoms even when you don't understand the root cause fully.
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Whoop Dee Dooo~ (Score:1)
But what does it all mean, Basil?
Was it for the better that "probiotics colonized the gut and modified the composition of the gut microbiome and the genes of the host individual"?
I guess it's back to (Score:1)
shit transplants for the health crazed. /s
Seriously, is anything really good or really bad for you in moderation?
Re:I guess it's back to (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously, is anything [...] really bad for you in moderation?
Plutonium.
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Don't take probiotic pills (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't waste your money on probiotic capsules. If you want to try to increase the amount or variety of bacteria in your guts, there are tons of delicious foods that are chock full of probiotics. Olives, pickles, fermented meats like the Italian delicacy soprasetta (which might be the tastiest thing ever invented by humans). Kimchi is also good, but it will make you smell bad, so if you're single, you might want to go easy on the kimchi.
Also, if you use vinegar on salads, try getting some of that good cider vinegar that still has the "mother" in it. Shake the bottle and use like any other vinegar. And of course, yogurt, kefir, that kind of stuff is delicious too.
I'm not crazy about kombucha. It's a big fad now and there are places here in California that have kombucha on tap, but it's not really to my taste. Some people swear by it. I notice that now when you buy it in the store, they ask for an ID since there's a small amount of alcohol in it.
Also, alcohol is not really good for your gut bacteria, but there are more important things in life than gut bacteria, you know? Just eat a lot of different kinds of food and you'll end up with good gut bacteria without even trying.
Re: Don't take probiotic pills (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would you advise people on natural sources of probiotics - in response to an article which said that they're either ineffectual or actually bad?
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They likely contain a lot more biodiversity vs. a monoculture or handful of strains in probiotic supplements. And they would still probably be ineffectual most of the time, except after antibiotic use. This study doesn't cover any of that. Of course if you're trying to feed the microbiome you already have, eating unfermented vegetables makes more sense as they still have the complex sugars like oligosaccharides, fructans and so on that would feed it. That depends on whether you are repopulating after an
Re: Don't take probiotic pills (Score:5, Interesting)
Because on the high probability that this new "study" actually gets overturned by future research, I want people to know they can eat delicious healthy food.
Remember when fats were bad? And coffee? And wine was good for you? And eggs were bad for you? And low-fat diets were good for losing weight?
And chocolate was bad for you? Do you need me to go on? When a "study" comes out saying something is either good for you or not, you can almost set your clock another study coming around the corner saying the opposite. So eat what's good. If your grandparents ate something and lived to be 90, it probably won't be bad for you. Just don't waste money on some gelatin capsule with "live bacteria" in it when there are delicious alternatives.
Remember the Nutrition Pyramid? The Four Food Groups? Member? Huh?
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I've had a complete failure of my gut three times in my life. The first took months to recover naturally. The other two, I recognized and bought a bottle of "yellow" and "purple" gut bacteria, and contrary to the labels simply took one of each capsule type (they wanted you to take one daily). I recovered within 48 hours after taking the pills on those two occasions.
So for me- it worked very well on two occasions.
I do not consume pro-biotics on a regular basis tho I do eat yogurt about 30 days a year just
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The problem is much of that was drafted by the agrifood industry [time.com], and much of that is bullshit intended to sell their products ... which led to trans-fats and hydrolized crap.
When the average person doesn't know the science, and the science is constrained by lobby groups, how do you know what is good and what isn't?
As to probiotics, if it isn't still a live culture when you eat it, it probably isn't what you think it is. Real kimchi which is
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Why would you advise people on natural sources of probiotics - in response to an article which said that they're either ineffectual or actually bad?
Well, they don't actually say that. What they do say is that probiotics can hinder your gut to go back to its normal ecosystem after an alteration (like antibiotics). What you don't know is if your normal ecosystem is trash, and you are much better not going back to it. There are so many questions about this, that it's difficult to know where to start, except by not making invented sensationalist headlines for scientific studies.
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The study could in no way establish that microflora from food is bad, because it didn't test that.
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there are tons of delicious foods that are chock full of probiotics.
Strictly speaking, those foods should just be said to contain bacteria, until it's shown to have some positive effect. For example, if a strain (not a bacterium but a specific strain) in yogurt helps treat constipation, it can be called a probiotic. If the strains of bacteria in natural sauerkraut haven't been studied, they should just be called bacteria (or lactic acid bacteria if you like).
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You call it what you want. I call it delicious.
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My point was that by definition, a probiotic has an observable positive effect beyond being tasty. But I wouldn't say no to sauerkraut and beer.
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I don't know why they even list yoghurt in the summary. If it contains probiotics they will probably not make it to the intestine. They put them in just four advertisement, afaik they have no proven effect.
Re:Don't take probiotic pills (Score:5, Insightful)
You're absolutely right. So the worst thing that can happen from ingesting this food is that you've just eaten something delicious that people have been eating for centuries. I'm not sure I get what part of it that is "crazy".
I don't know if probiotics are good or bogus or simply neutral. But I knew that fermented food is good food. I buy this habanero hot sauce that is fermented in barrels and it will make you weep and praise the lord. Get you some of that whole milk yogurt and put a big spoon on some blueberries and a drop of honey, it's like dipping your snout in Aphrodite's lady parts.
Don't pay attention to the labels. Eat what you like and don't overdo it and you'll live a nice long life and you won't need all those antibiotics because you'll be healthy.
Re: Don't take probiotic pills (Score:2)
Also we always have sourdough bread, which is also the result of fermentation. There was the same issue in the past, that some tried to replace the fermentation process by adding an acid instead, but no one liked it. Of course not, the sour taste is
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Because that capsule has been formulated FOR SALE. It doesn't really have your best interests at heart. Nor does it take your gut microbiome into account. It's important to recognise that no-one's microbiome can be treated by a generic cocktail of bacteria - we're all different. What's good for you might be ineffective for me. If even 1% of the bacteria in kimchi make it to my intestine, they will, given otherwise favourable conditions, flourish, grow, and reproduce. If they were harmful, I'd be very sick r
Re: Don't take probiotic pills (Score:5, Interesting)
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. Eat what you like
Errrrr you were on a roll right up until that point. Eating what people like (saturated sugars loaded into processed crap) is precisely what is preventing nice long lives for many in America. Because let's face it, eat what I like? You'll find me at Five Guys breakfast lunch and dinner followed soon after at the pharmacy getting a top-up for my insulin injector and blood pressure medication.
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This post is useless without detailing the brand and variety of the habanero sauce.
Re: Don't take probiotic pills (Score:2)
If there's bacteria in real yoghurt... ...it's probably not there for the advertising. It's there because that's how yoghurt is made. Same with cheese. How did you think they were made?
Re: Don't take probiotic pills (Score:3)
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That's different. If specific vendors are making false claims and contaminating their product, count me in on the next protest. I have no problems you condemning that and support you every step of the way.
There's plenty of evidence that ingested bacteria get to the gut, but there's no evidence in any specific case and very little evidence for specific bacteria being healthy.
I'm happy to demand vendors produce the evidence or pay researchers to find out the reality. Should have been done by now.
How yogurt is made (Score:3)
that's how yoghurt is made. Same with cheese. How did you think they were made?
saddly some cheap industrial process are just mixing in cheap acids to accelerate the precipitation.
you also get a firm product at the end just like with naturally occurring lactic acid, but with less waiting for the fermentation to produce those.
but yes, the *real* one relies on fermentation.
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You can thank Lindsay Lohan for the ID thing. She got busted for being a drunken whore during one of her many falls off the wagon and tried to claim that she hadn't been drinking booze, but just kombucha. After that, everyone
Soppressata (Score:1)
Small correction, since I was actually wondering what you meant (and I've been living in Italy for >30 years...).
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There's an even simpler reason not to take the probiotic pills you see in the drug store or even the supermarket these days.
You wouldn't take a pill from an open bottle of "nutritional supplement" you found lying in the gutter because you wouldn't be sure what's actually in it. The thing is your chances aren't much better if you purchased the unopened bottle from a pharmacy. Thanks to a legal system which equates buying congressmen with speech, supplements are effectively completely unregulated.
When a st
Makes sense to me. (Score:5, Informative)
Most probiotics are a pretty small range of bacteria, and I don't know if I've ever seen anywhere that confirms these are actually the ones we want on a large scale...especially when some supplements have pretty large doses of these.
From all the reading I've done it seems the best direction will be to focus on prebiotics, aka the foods that the microbiome thrives on, which is typically fibrous vegetable matter. Feed the good ones you've got (rather than trying to implant others), and you'll probably be better off.
Re: Makes sense to me. (Score:2)
Very little works as expected in isolation.
We know that researchers who visit Africa for a week suddenly develop gut flora that is extremely rare and healthy, but try identifying a specific cause.
Of the 1,500+ species of bacteria found in the gut, most show up as "rare, unstudied", so we've no idea whether they're beneficial or not. I'd rather researchers find that out first, given nobody will change their diet anyway.
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Re: Makes sense to me. (Score:1)
Bacteria has co-evolved with humans and the bacteria that feeds on sugars produce chemical compounds that make us crave sugar. I believe eating only healthy foods will allow other bacteria to crowd them out and make it easier over time. The remnants are, however, always waiting for a moment of weakness and will explode in population given the chance.
This study is done by morons (Score:4, Insightful)
What idiot thinks that if you give pills of a specific biome you will get something BESIDES that specific biome???? Look, if you take probiotic pills, you are replacing your normal biome WITH the biome of the pills.
That was the presumed GOAL of taking the pills. The fact that your biome change is the thing you were trying to do, that's why you take the pills.
If you have a blue car, and then paint it with red paint you are an idiot if you complain that the car is no longer red.
There are lots of good reasons to try and change your microbiome. We are pretty sure that some microbiomes cause ulcers, obesity, and even diabetes, We have suspicious about cancer, autism, autoimmune diseases, and many other things.
We don't know much about microbiomes, we are not sure about a lot of things and it might make zero sense to take a probiotic pill. But it also might make a lot of sense.
These studies don't answer the real question. They have nothing to do with it being beneficial or not, they just show that a change has occurred. They are talking about whether the pills change your biome, (and they do), not about whether it is a good idea to change your biome by taking the pills.
Re:This study is done by morons (Score:5, Informative)
Look, if you take probiotic pills, you are replacing your normal biome WITH the biome of the pills.
The study concluded the opposite (in all cases except with antibiotic use). And the results are surprising. What it sounds like is happening is that all of the bacteria in the probiotic compete for food with the biofilm in your intestines. However, the probiotic has no way to supplant the biofilm - that's a protective layer that keeps out competing bacteria. It just starves the resident population a little bit as it passes on through. Either way, more or less none of it stays behind and it all leaves the body with your digested food.
With antibiotic use, the biofilm dies off, but there are only a few strains in the probiotic. These compete with the remnant biofilm reserve in the appendix for recolonization and actually slow recovery. Again this is just continuing my theory based on the results of the study. And those few strains are not enough diversity to maintain your digestive health and should not be the entire makeup of your intestinal microbiome.
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So if one has their appendix removed, does the biofilm ever recover?
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Actually the study concluded that if you *STOP* taking the pills then your biome reverted to it's previous state fairly rapidly. So clearly you need to keep taking them.
Note this was all done on healthy people as well, so tells you nothing about someone who has "gut" issues. It would be like giving penicillin to a healthy person and concluding it was of no benefit at all.
A further failure of the study is the assumption that the normal state is actually desirable.
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Note this was all done on healthy people as well, so tells you nothing about someone who has "gut" issues. It would be like giving penicillin to a healthy person and concluding it was of no benefit at all.
Spot on. It would have been far more useful on people taking long-term antibiotics for say infections in the bone from surgery and would rather try to avoid going back under the knife and removing a swath of bone, or diabetic foot ulcers. There's enough of these cases in most western countries that they could have a good sample size. There's a very good reason that they give yogurt and some form of probiotic after you've been given a high dose broad spectrum antibiotic in the hospital as well, people rec
Re: This study is done by morons (Score:1)
Sound like the key then is to reset your biome with antibiotics and then follow up with a designer mix of probiotics.
Hmm (Score:2)
The summary (and you really don't expect me to read TFA do you?) does not make clear at all why this would be a bad thing.
The researchers found the microbiomes of those who had taken the probiotics had suffered a "very severe disturbance." "Once the probiotics had colonized the gut, they completely inhibited the return of the indigenous microbiome which was disrupted during antibiotic treatment," said Eran Elinav, an immunologist at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel and lead author on the studies.
OK. Is that a bad thing then?
Is the "indigenous" microbiome automatically better than the probiotic? (Maybe it has cool costumes and casinos and stuff)?
I mean, it might be better, but the summary isn't giving us any hint why
This is rather confusing (Score:4, Insightful)
"very severe disturbance." "Once the probiotics had colonized the gut, they completely inhibited the return of the indigenous microbiome which was disrupted during antibiotic treatment,"
Isn't that the entire point of taking probiotics? To populate the gut microbiome with whatever you are ingesting? Who in their right mind would have theorized anything else occurring? The entire point is to get those strains of bacteria in the guts. How is that a "very severe disturbance"?
Completely normal (Score:3)
"The researchers found the microbiomes of those who had taken the probiotics had suffered a "very severe disturbance."
A pound and a half of Sauerkraut can do that for you.
Moderation in everything (Score:2)
Probiotics are good, probiotics are not so good.
Coffee is bad, coffee is good.
Wine is good, wine is bad.
Calories are bad, no carbs are bad.
Nutrition is complicated. Science will continue to find seemingly contradictory conclusions forever.
So what's a person to do? Do what Grandma always said: don't overdo anything. Sure, eat yogurt, but don't live on the stuff. Drink coffee, but don't drink ONLY coffee. Drink wine, but not too much. And so on.
It's not rocket science.
Re: Study indirectly funded by big pharma says stu (Score:2)
Conclusion: Privately funded research replaces the academic biome with a pathogenic strain.