Surgical Robots Cut Training Time Down From 80 Sessions To 30 Minutes (theguardian.com) 113
From a report: It is the most exacting of surgical skills: tying a knot deep inside a patient's abdomen, pivoting long graspers through keyhole incisions with no direct view of the thread. Trainee surgeons typically require 60 to 80 hours of practice, but in a mock-up operating theatre outside Cambridge, a non-medic with just a few hours of experience is expertly wielding a hook-shaped needle -- in this case stitching a square of pink sponge rather than an artery or appendix.
The feat is performed with the assistance of Versius, the world's smallest surgical robot, which could be used in NHS operating theatres for the first time later this year if approved for clinical use. Versius is one of a handful of advanced surgical robots that are predicted to transform the way operations are performed by allowing tens or hundreds of thousands more surgeries each year to be carried out as keyhole procedures. The Versius robot cuts down the time required to learn to tie a surgical knot from more than 100 training sessions, when using traditional manual tools, to just half an hour, according to Slack.
The feat is performed with the assistance of Versius, the world's smallest surgical robot, which could be used in NHS operating theatres for the first time later this year if approved for clinical use. Versius is one of a handful of advanced surgical robots that are predicted to transform the way operations are performed by allowing tens or hundreds of thousands more surgeries each year to be carried out as keyhole procedures. The Versius robot cuts down the time required to learn to tie a surgical knot from more than 100 training sessions, when using traditional manual tools, to just half an hour, according to Slack.
GOOD! (Score:3, Interesting)
As someone who needs surgery in the deranged health care system in Quebec, anything that can remove these arrogant human doctors from the loop and make surgery perhaps a nurse-practitioner thing is GOOD.
I've had it with the arrogant ignorant incompetent condescending doctors that fill the system here and anything that can threaten their hegemony is GOOD.
Bring on the AI diagnosis, remote-viewed autosurgery please.
Anything to kick these complacent doctor's asses!
Windos 10 must now reboot (Score:3)
installing update. Windows 10 will now reboot.......... Licence manager error, please call Tech support during bussiness hours. Thank you.
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And if I survive the system here and I'm done suing the series of buttfuck ignorant motherfuckers that didn't do their jobs, I'll use the money to start my own doctor-removing technology!
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...I'll use the money to start my own doctor-removing technology!
With hookers! And blackjack!
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There's a difference between how the system is organized, and what the doctors are like. Quebec seems to like copying the French as much as possible. We use the Civil Code [wikipedia.org], unlike the rest of Canada, our "national" library is FILLED with books from France. Utterly useless books like how to buy a house.... in France. Not useful in Quebec, but it's in French so...
For some reason, French doctors from France seem to flock here. Why they can't move their cheese-eating asses back under the Eiffel tower, I don't k
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I'm in a bad situation. Thanks for the insight.
I'll let you know if I can get the surgery and what the pathology will say.
Cheers!
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Sorry you're "in a bad situation". But, I have to ask, is this the wonderful Canadian healthcare that I see others rave about? I know it didn't work so well for my dead aunt from Ontario.
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Right on! I always do the same thing at restaurants. Chefs are just as arrogant! For example: I'll order the lasagna and send along a print-out of my favorite version from allrecipes.com. Inevitably, I'm informed that the pretentious Italians in the back refuse to even look at it!
Bring on the robot chefs! Knock these arrogant motherfuckers down a peg!
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You mean the chefs I can pay to cook exactly what I want and won't argue with me that I'm full already, or don't know what I want? Or that I didn't go to cooking school?
Four Yorkshiremen (Score:2)
As someone who needs surgery in the deranged health care system in Quebec, anything that can remove these arrogant human doctors from the loop and make surgery perhaps a nurse-practitioner thing is GOOD.
You had a healthcare system?
We used to *dream* of having a healthcare system!
(Still do, actually...)
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Be careful what you wish for. I don't know what the solution is, but the larger a system becomes, the more rot sets in.
Re: Four Yorkshiremen (Score:5, Insightful)
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What we need is for Government to stop deciding what "health care system" ought to look and be like. Because what works for you, may not work for me, and visa versa. Government can't provide flexibility that individuals want. But then again, the "one size fits all" approach is exactly what the idiots who love and crave for Government Controls think is appropriate because it is "fair" (it isn't fair, it isn't even close to being fair).
My proposal for health care would give the greatest flexibility to the gre
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My proposal for health care would give the greatest flexibility to the greatest number of people
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. How would you make it more flexible?
Re: Four Yorkshiremen (Score:5, Informative)
That's why I think the arguments about "public" or "private" are rather silly...... It's better to evaluate individual proposals to see what is better.
No, that's exactly why a public system works better - they're your patients whether you like it or not, always and forever. The primary reason the US needs to spend twice as much to have the same level of healthcare is that everyone is trying to cherry pick profitable patients and get rid of unprofitable patients, with hospitals billing for things you don't really need while insurance companies work to avoid paying claims. Health insurance is not like fire insurance or auto insurance where you either had a fire/crash or you didn't. Bad health comes crawling with risk factors, precursors, complications, good and bad periods and chronic issues people live with and insurance companies are trying to pick up the warning flags and get rid of you.
In the public system, single payer basically means it's a single bill. Doesn't matter if it's now or next year, at this hospital or that hospital, if you've got cancer we're going to end up paying for treating that cancer. The whole system is geared towards what's medically the most efficient way to treat it, we have a pool of money and it's constantly being evaluated if we spend it on the right things - from the patients' perspective. If there's a cheaper generic medicine we just decree it's the default and you only get other brand medicine if you experience side effects. The pharmacy industry hates this. There's still huge debates on say placements of hospitals and what treatments to support, but it's mostly based in medicine.
It's still not funny... your child is going to die, there's a medicine that could help extend their life but it costs $1 million dollars. At some point somebody has to consider if not 100 $10k treatments or 10000 $100 prescriptions are better for the public health. But if we're doing it with the public's money at least we are considering it, not by what insurance plan you have. Unless you're in the small minority that has private health insurance that lets you get certain surgeries quicker or could afford crazy money out of pocket. But for the money you're getting good care in the public system. And it turns out fixing poor people's simple health problems often avoid big expenses later, we want you healthy enough to be a tax payer. Otherwise some other part of the system will get stuck with the bill.
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No, that's exactly why a public system works better - they're your patients whether you like it or not, always and forever
OK, let's see your specific proposal.
The primary reason the US needs to spend twice as much to have the same level of healthcare is that everyone is trying to cherry pick profitable patients and get rid of unprofitable patients, with hospitals billing for things you don't really need while insurance companies work to avoid paying claims
Oh, I see you haven't actually looked at data: you're just guessing and wishing.
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Oh, I see you haven't actually looked at data: you're just guessing and wishing.
No, those are the facts. You just don't like them.
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Can you name any way the US system is better than Canada's?
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I'll die anyway if I don't get the surgery. Thanks for the input, doctor.
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There's nothing to trust if they don't even listen. There is only one specialist here that has enough knowledge to help me. And I was only able to find his name on my own, no fucking help whatsoever from the doctors I saw here. I found a reference online from a medical journal article from Ethiopia. Why did I have to email a doctor in Ethiopia to get the paper the Montreal-based doctor wrote? It's not even registered at the university he attended, I had to get the abstract from the doctor in Ethiopia. That
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I see. Thank you, doctor.
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I'll die anyway if I don't get the surgery.
If it's as simple as you indicated elsewhere, find a doc in another country. From what you've said, the alternative doesn't sound viable.
Not the Droids you are looking for (Score:5, Informative)
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You seem almost stupid enough to succeed your medical studies! Good luck!
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I know, but anything that will make their "skill" less elite, the better.
Re:GOOD! (Score:4, Insightful)
Bring on the AI diagnosis, remote-viewed autosurgery please.
Agree, but:
;-)
...
SystemW: Knife cut last muscle holding heart in place.
SystemW: Remove knife.
SystemW: Automatic WSS snapshot.
SystemW: Hand successfully grasped, removed heart.
SystemW: Old heart released over receiving bin.
SystemW: New heart picked up.
SystemW: New heart placed in patient.
SystemW: Windows forced updates occurring. ETA: 20 minutes.
SystemW: Windows forced updates occurring. ETA: 22 minutes.
SystemW: Windows update failure. System restore in progress.
SystemW: System restore successful, resuming operations.
SystemW: Hand out of place! Reoriented.
SystemW: Hand successfully grasped, removed heart.
SystemW: Old heart released over receiving bin.
SystemW: New heart picked up.
SystemW: NOTE: heart is lighter than expected.
SystemW: New heart placed in patient.
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Personally, I could give a shit if my doctor is an arrogant asshole, as long as he's a top notch surgeon, he can autograph is work of art for all I care. I'm not paying to have my him kiss my ass, I'm paying for as close to perfection as I can get, and there are a lot of arrogant perfectionists out there.
Arrogance (Score:2)
As someone who needs surgery in the deranged health care system in Quebec, anything that can remove these arrogant human doctors from the loop and make surgery perhaps a nurse-practitioner thing is GOOD.
Tell me that again when you are coding on the operating table. You don't need a surgeon for many routine surgeries. That's not why you want a surgeon. The value of a surgeon is for when something unexpected or particularly serious happens. And the fun thing about operations is that you never quite know when that is going to happen. So go right ahead and have someone less qualified do your surgery and pray nothing goes wrong. Frankly I think the arrogant one here is you.
I've had it with the arrogant ignorant incompetent condescending doctors that fill the system here and anything that can threaten their hegemony is GOOD.
As opposed to the arrogant, know
according to Slack (Score:5, Informative)
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If anyone read the summary and is wondering why Slack is mentioned as an authority here, Slack is the last name of one of the doctors involved, not a crappy IRC replacement.
That didn't bother me as much as reducing 80 sessions down to 30 minutes: How to compare two numbers when they measure different things?
Slashdot is apparently not a tech-oriented website.
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couldn't even make it to the first bit of the tfs which uses 'hours' instead of 'sessions'? a knot-tying training session is, apparently, about an hour long.
but, regardless of the 'unit of measurement' of the length of a training session... this does not account for the fact doctors will still need training in how to do things the 'old' way, PLUS this fancy 'new' way, PLUS for emergency procedures for when the fancy 'new' way goes wrong or breaks or there is some other complication that the 'new' way can't
Re:according to Slack (Score:4, Funny)
That didn't bother me as much as reducing 80 sessions down to 30 minutes: How to compare two numbers when they measure different things?
Slashdot is apparently not a tech-oriented website.
They used to have eighty 20sec sessions. Now they need 30min, but we sold them a new bit of hardware so that's the important bit.
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They should have gone with 15 colors, 42 flavors, and 93 gallons/second.
Nano Doctor (Score:2)
... Versius, the world's smallest surgical robot,
Still under development: Nano Doctor [youtube.com] ...
Cutting and sewing is not what makes a surgeon... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm an anesthesiologist. i've watched a lot of surgeries, and I could do a few of them - if I had a surgeon on the phone to walk me through them. There's a reason that a general surgery residency is five years long, and it's not because it takes that long to learn how to tie a knot.
They're working on AI's for that (Score:2)
60 more hours to learn that stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
Your comment does not surprise me at all.
It reminds me of people who mistakenly think that learning the vocabulary words of programming (a programming language) makes one a professional programmer. Lile most subjects, learning the vocabulary words (language) is rather a prerequisite to learning the art and science of what it's used for.
In my field, reducing the time required to learn the mechanics means people can instead spend that time on learning the hard parts. Some languages are very consistent, and rather small, so they are easy to learn. Some are inconsistent, with functions like AddArray() paired with array_remove(). Time spent memorizing the eccentricities of the language is time not spent learning design patterns, or anti-patterns, or algorithmic analysis.
I suppose if surgeons can spend 60 less hours learning to tie a knot blindfolded, they can instead spend that time learning something else.
Re:60 more hours to learn that stuff (Score:5, Informative)
It's all about billing. Example: hysterectomies are a pretty common procedure. Unless you have abnormal anatomy, you can have your uterus removed through your vagina. Zero visible incisions, and it's a quick procedure. But it doesn't pay at all - the surgeon can get more money for doing it laparoscopically and leaving you with scars (and usually taking longer to do it). It also costs the hospital more money in supplies (and they don't get paid extra for that).
Just an FYI, if your wife wants her uterus out (let's face it, if there ever were women here, they're almost all gone), find someone who will do it transvaginally. Easier recovery, no scars.
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My point is that it doesn't take anything like 60 hours of training to learn how to tie a knot blindfolded. Surgical "robots" (really, they are just manipulator arms, or waldoes) make surgery a lot more expensive, but they really don't offer much. Standard laparoscopy is much faster and just as good for the vast majority of procedures. There are some cases where the extra expense might be justified (prostatectomies come to mind here), but usually? No. It's all about billing. Example: hysterectomies are a pretty common procedure. Unless you have abnormal anatomy, you can have your uterus removed through your vagina. Zero visible incisions, and it's a quick procedure. But it doesn't pay at all - the surgeon can get more money for doing it laparoscopically and leaving you with scars (and usually taking longer to do it). It also costs the hospital more money in supplies (and they don't get paid extra for that).
FYI: It is about billing--however, it's about billing insurance, which often doesn't believe in whatever newfangled surgical technique--it doesn't matter to them if it's better in every single possible way, change scares them so very much that they refuse to, and health care providers generally won't even bother mentioning a procedure your insurance won't cover.
So, if you're trying to find, for example, a surgeon who'll do a transvaginal hysterectomy? Either already know your insurance will cover it (have
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It reminds me of people who mistakenly think that learning the vocabulary words of programming (a programming language) makes one a professional programmer.
Crap, I've been memorizing Gray's Anatomy, and was expecting to open my practice soon.
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Knowing when and where to cut, what to sew, and what to do when you cut or sew the wrong thing - that's what's hard about it.
Sounds like something that would be easy for a computer, if it has the data. Inventing new procedures and methods is another matter, hopefully when the day comes the machine doesn't decide it's best to grab a replacement part from the anesthesiologist.
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Sounds like something that would be easy for a computer
Not really. The variation in human anatomy from person to person is substantial, even before you account for the changes that are due to prior surgical interventions. Not saying that it's impossible, but self-driving cars are a far simpler problem.
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Yes, but don't mention it to your doctor. I may very well be dead of abdominal compartment syndrome within months if I don't get a simple 30 minute surgery. Good luck trying to get a doctor to listen to the research you've done yourself, however.
My brain is good enough to get a job where 50% of my salary is removed so that money can be dumped by mining truck into hospitals, but my brain can not go through a list of conditions and eliminate the improbable ones and come up with highly probable ones.
It also ca
Re:Professional "training" is all show (Score:4, Interesting)
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On a specific condition, he very well might; even as specialists, doctors need to have a wide breadth of knowledge.
This is true of a lot of fields: somebody with a personal interest in a very narrow field and the motivation to teach himself everything about that narrow subject can very easily know that subject better than someone with extensive formal education covering a much wider field of study.
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When people talk about Automation (Score:2)
No nation wants a medical service with (Score:2)
How to do a great ER:
A day and night, all weather helicopter service. Educate your helicopter crews to fly at night.
An ambulance service with experts.
That gets a nations citizens to the best hospitals in shorter time.
Once in such a hospital all doctors and staff should be selected on merit. Did not pass your exams to the best standards and cant study and learn? Try a different area of medicine.
A university system should only accept a nations very best t
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That is usually set by only allowing the very best to enter medicine every year.
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Carlin said it best - Somewhere out there is the world's worst doctor. The scariest part is that someone has an appointment with him tomorrow
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Sorry, this was supposed to be the link:
https://arstechnica.com/scienc... [arstechnica.com]
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This link says that Trump said two months ago that there would be cuts in the coming weeks, but so far things are business as usual. Maybe you should let the policy be implemented before implying that they were implemented and backfired?
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Trump makes the announcement and THEN Pfizer raises prices on 100 drugs by 10%. They're playing him for a stooge, just like Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin. Trump thinks he's looking tough and he's being taken to the cleaners on a near-daily basis.
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No, I'm saying the pharma industry thinks Trump can kiss their ass. They got their tax cut so fuck him and fuck you.
It was a 10% increase, which they have been doing twice a year since Trump got elected. Give it up, son. Trump won, you lost.
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Yes, the 100 most-prescribed ones. And Pfizer has been raising the prices on ALL of their prescription drugs and average of 16% per year.
They are not. You will find that unemployment was lower in 1929, just before the crash that led to the Great Depression.
I didn't t
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Half-century. Look again.
Also, I notice that wage growth has slowed since Trump took office. More jobs were being created during Obama and wages were growing faster. In fact, since the passage of his highly-touted tax cut plan, wages for most US workers have actually shrunk.
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
Billing for this tech (Score:2)
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why tie (Score:2)
Robotic surgery (Score:1)
Two things occur to me (Score:1)
Two things occur to me as I read about this.
It isn't 'robotic surgery'. It's robot-assisted surgery. There's still a trained human performing the surgery itself. The intention is to perform more types of surgery using less invasive, time consuming processes.
The other thing is the concern that the doctors won't be able to perform the surgeries in this manner if they don't have the robot assistance if that's the only way they've been trained to do it.
Overall the concept is great - less stress on the patient,
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The implications of being completely dependent on the robot to do the procedures this way is scary.
Why? Surgeons are completely dependent on all sorts of tools to do their surgeries. This is just a new tool.