Scientists Race To Find Who is Pumping a Dangerous Gas Into the Atmosphere (theoutline.com) 355
An anonymous reader shares a report: When the research was published in Nature on May 16, it was like a bomb dropped. A greenhouse gas is billowing into the atmosphere from a source somewhere in East Asia that no one can identify at a rate scientists have never before seen, and it's ignited a scientific dash to get to the bottom of it. All countries are supposed to comply with the rules laid out in the 1987 Montreal Protocol, which banned the production of CFCs -- chlorofluorocarbons, which deplete the ozone layer and contribute to global warming -- with only temporary exception of a few economically developing countries. If everyone fulfills their end of the deal, the amount of CFCs in the atmosphere should gradually wane over the course of several decades. CFC levels plummeted through the 1990s, and then stagnated between 2002 and 2005. But in in 2014, mysterious toxic plumes of CFC-11 -- a type of CFC -- began to drift across the Pacific Ocean. Stephen Montzaka, a chemist who studies and monitors CFCs for The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association (NOAA), was shocked.
China (Score:4, Insightful)
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Now now, it is entirely possible it's India as well. Or a sooper sekrit dastardly plan whipped up by the Russians.
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Re:China (Score:4, Informative)
Look at the map. The plume is the densest over Hawaii and spreads east from there, there is very little west of it. I had no idea Hawaii was classified as East Asia though..
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Like, maybe....
http://cfc.geologist-1011.net/ [geologist-1011.net]
Volcanic Halocarbons: Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) in Volcanic Emissions
Abstract
"Although commonly regarded as not naturally occuring, halocarbons and chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) do occur naturally and are emitted from volcanoes."
Re:China (Score:4, Informative)
I wonder if the volcanic activity in Hawaii might be related....
I don't think so. Volcanoes don't emit CFCs, and the plume starts further west.
If you look at the map in TFA, the strongest concentration is near Johnston Atoll, where the US stored and processed chemical weapons.
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China as a state? Unlikely.
Someone _in_ China not following the laws to earn more? Pretty damn likely.
Observe the difference between the two choices.
Re:China (Score:4, Interesting)
What % of heavy Chinese industry does the Chinese communist party (aka the Chinese government) own? Hint: It's not 0.
Add the % of heavy Chinese industry owned by family members of the Chinese central committee and you are closing in on 100%.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Also: List is woefully incomplete...Wikipedia, what can you say? I know for a fact that NORINCO (chinese weapons maker) is owned by the Chinese communist party, it's not on the list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
That list apparently doesn't include CP China's holdings and certainly doesn't list the holdings of central committee members families.
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Without a doubt.
Cool story, thanks for you insight. I mean we all know the rest of south east Asia is a shining example of cleanliness and responsible environmentalism.
I mean you may be right, China is big and has a high population so statistically it could be them. But you didn't use statistics to make your decision, only bias.
Definately China (Score:5, Informative)
I used to live in China and was in the data center cooling business. R12 is all over the place there in the HVAC industry. Officially, it's prohibited. Unofficially, you can buy it from any A/C dealer in just about any city. I've been gone for a few years, but when I was there, R12 air conditioners were still being made and installed new.
Re:Fake story (Score:5, Informative)
Nowhere does it state that CFC-11 is a greenhouse gas
They don't even need to, it should be common knowledge. [wikipedia.org]
Greenhouse gas (Score:3)
Re:Fake story (Score:5, Informative)
Nowhere does it state that CFC-11 is a greenhouse gas
Because most people realize CFCs are a powerful greenhouse gas [noaa.gov]. Oh, and because you posted a Wiki link, here's one right back for you [wikipedia.org], and here's the important quote you should take from it:
the atmospheric impacts of CFCs are not limited to its role as an active ozone reducer. This anthropogenic compound is also a greenhouse gas, with a much higher potential to enhance the greenhouse effect than CO2.
Emphasis added. Don't blame your ignorance on others.
Re:Fake story (Score:4, Insightful)
I wouldn't bet on "most people" knowing that CFCs are also greenhouse gases. I consider myself pretty well-read, and that was news to me -- to me the issue with CFCs was always ozone.
But now I know. If I had been a journalist writing the piece, I would have clarified the issue.
Re:Fake story (Score:4, Insightful)
I consider myself pretty well-read
Did you read TFA?
If I had been a journalist writing the piece, I would have clarified the issue.
From TFA: "As greenhouse gases, CFCs are also thousands of times more potent than carbon dioxide"
How could it be more clear?
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Since the 1970s (yes, I'm showing my age), it's been relatively common knowledge that CFCs = ozone-depleting gases, and there have been published articles which seek to establish causal links to climate change as a secondary result of ozone depletion. So knowledge of CFCs as 'greenhouse gases' is not as common as knowledge of CFCs as 'ozone-depleting gases', but it's not as if it's completely out of the blue, either.
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Low energy infrared photons (like those emitted by a body at 300K) can cause bonds to bend side to side in a flapping motion.
Oxygen and nitrogen are diatomic molecules. They can stretch, but there's no way they can bend because there are only two atoms. So they're transparent to IR emitted from the ground and are not greenhouse gases. Molecules that can bend need three atoms or more, like carbon dioxide, whi
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Re: Fake story (Score:2)
Are they released in significant enough quantities to be relevant to global warming?
I was wondering, too; odds are no.
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Any chance this could be natural? I'm pretty sure it isn't but just asking.
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I did a little bit of reading on this subject just now. I found some studies that state there are natural sources of CFCs. Then I found another paper that says there are natural sources of CFC.s
From reading that paper I believe its safe to say there are natural sources of CFCs. But these sources are insignificant to really matter.
Re:Fake story (Score:5, Informative)
The fact that the molecule has four of these weird bonds makes it really suspicious. Someone is definitely making this shit.
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I found studies answering my own questions. A simple google search would let you find the same things. Since I'm not proposing any thing outrageous, why do I need to do your research for you?
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The fact that the molecule has four of these weird bonds makes it really suspicious. Someone is definitely making this shit.
Well that blows. Thanks for bring me up to date.
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the atmospheric impacts of CFCs are not limited to its role as an active ozone reducer. This anthropogenic compound is also a greenhouse gas, with a much higher potential to enhance the greenhouse effect than CO2.
Emphasis added. Don't blame your ignorance on others.
Actually, CFC-11 is NOT a very powerful greenhouse gas. It's about 1/30 as powerful as CO2, for example, mostly because there just isn't very much CFC-11 in the atmosphere. If you add all of the halocarbons together, they're about 1/6 that of CO2 alone.
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You are misinterpreting.
CFC-11 is a nearly 5000 times stronger Greenhouse gas than CO2, but it is only in very small amounts in the atmosphere.
Troll [Re:Fake story] (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, he knows it, the anonymous coward is simply trolling. The fact that the greenhouse gas in question is CFC-11 is clear in the article linked, and it takes some very deliberate misreading to not see that it is in the summary.
CFC-11 is trichlorofluoromethane, for what it's worth. A better reference is here: https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com]
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CFC-11, trichloromonofluoromethane, commonly known as Freon (tm).
NOT toxic.
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CFC-11, trichloromonofluoromethane, commonly known as Freon (tm).
Dichlorodifluoromethane [wikipedia.org] (R-12) is a colorless gas usually sold under the brand name Freon-12. Trichlorofluoromethane [wikipedia.org] [is] also called freon-11, [and] was the first widely used refrigerant. In spite of being the earlier claimant to the name, the refrigerant people are thinking of when they hear the name "Freon(tm)" is R-12. This is due to the fact it took dominance over R-11 long ago.
Re: China (Score:2)
There is also a large portion of china that produces negligible CO2 as they are small farmers with no vehicles and very little power.
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Your link is broken. Here, let me fix it for you. [wikipedia.org]
As others have pointed out on this thread, China is the largest emitter of CO2. However, it ranks pretty much in the middle per capita. The USA, Australia, and various middle-eastern oil-rich countries are the worst offenders.
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https://www.theonion.com/taco-bell-launches-new-morning-after-burrito-1819564251 [theonion.com]
Someone is doing (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Someone is doing (Score:5, Insightful)
From my quick checking it looks like uranium enrichment releases CFC 114. The CFC detected here is CFC 11. So unless there is a process of enrichment that releases CFC 11 that I didn't stumble upon it looks like this isn't due to uranium enrichment.
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American uranium enrichment releases 114. It's one of the allowed exceptions.
There might be other processes.
I'm not saying (Score:5, Funny)
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Aliens come to earth and say "Wow, nice planet. We just need to get rid of that many humans. Let's leak some stupid technologyies like burning fossil fuels, fission of heavy elements, toxic pesticides and herbicides and maybe some dangerous CFC chemistry. Maybe we'll also sprinkle in some flawed ideologies like nationalism and racism in order to trigger infighting. By the time they realize their errors it will be too late for them. When the colony ships arrive, we
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Re: I'm not saying (Score:2)
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Reptiles aren't slimy. You're thinking of amphibians.
Or maybe eels-- you're thinking of eels.
find them (Score:2)
and throw the book on them!
Thanks,
The world
Environmental capital. (Score:2, Insightful)
If we're going to get a handle on the environmentally destructive nature of capitalism then we're going to have to legislate that environmental capital be a real thing in all UN nations. That is that when you pollute the environment that you are held financially accountable for the costs required to remove it from the environment.
This tragedy of the commons has been going on far too long.
Good luck (Score:2)
If we're going to get a handle on the environmentally destructive nature of capitalism then we're going to have to legislate that environmental capital be a real thing in all UN nations. That is that when you pollute the environment that you are held financially accountable for the costs required to remove it from the environment.
Nice sentiment but let's get real. Until we can do something as basic as forcing oil companies to actually pay the full cost of the pollution their products generate we're not going to get nation states to cooperate. Hell we still subsidize fossil fuel companies to the tune of around $5 trillion globally every year and barely regulate emissions. Good luck getting that under control.
This tragedy of the commons has been going on far too long.
And as long as we have economically selfish "leaders" who think anything that hurts oil company profits is some sort of evil
Re:Environmental capital. (Score:5, Insightful)
Read up on marketable torts or watch a David Freidman lecture on the topic. Icelanders had this figured out a thousand years ago but the Church's systems of government got rid of it when they took over. What you erroneously describe as a failure of capitalism is actually a failure to select good systems of governance.
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Check the history of eastern Europe and the USSR. Capitalism is fucking clean in comparison. All you have is a theory, Capitalism has history.
Also: Fuck no. The UN is not sovereign. The general assembly are a bunch of self serving, corrupt clowns. Not just no, FUCK NO!
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Check the history of eastern Europe and the USSR. Capitalism is fucking clean in comparison. All you have is a theory, Capitalism has history.
A) I'm not speaking about doing away with capitalism, you nitwit.
B) I'm implying we need regulation because capitalism by definition is not under the direct control of the government.
C) Not sure what your issue is with the UN because you have yet to make a point.
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Nice spin. Let me toss you one out there too.
https://www.ucsusa.org/global-... [ucsusa.org]
Re:Environmental capital. (Score:4)
An I'm still waiting for someone to tell my why its important that we know how much is made per person. An to explain why the total a country produces as a whole doesn't matter.
China dumps more green house gasses in the environment as a whole than any other country. By some studies, twice as much. And every study agrees that this is only going to go up.
It doesn't matter how much one person emits. What matters is the total fucking amount emitted by every one.
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You should stop being jealous of people who are smarter than you and get modded up more than you do.
No, the total amount we need to worry about is by country. You want to know why? Do you? Let me make sure I use small words so you can understand.
We are still divided along tribal lines. Which means any laws that need to be passed will need to be passed at the government level. To control the problem we have to work on that level.
Now do you understand? Probably not.
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But yet you think that lines on a map are important when you want to assign blame to people of the US? But not when the finger is pointed at the biggest polluter, China? So its only important when you can blame the U.S?
You see you are not looking to solve the problem? You are just looking for someone to blame. Since you can't blame the whole U.S. any more as the number one polluter, you pull out this per capta crap so you can continue to do so.
We get it, you hate the U.S. But here is something f
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I have a question. I'm sure this will be modded off topic, an that is fine. As you pointed out I have more than enough karma to cover it.
When did you become such a fool? I don't mean idiot or moron, but I mean a fool. There is a difference but most people tend to ignore them. One can be reasonably smart, such as yourself, an still be a fool.
I'm sure you will try to turn this back on me some how, an that will be fine. But I remember some of your earlier posts and they seemed well reasoned, though
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I suppose that is as good an answer as I can expect. I could troll you; pick you up, and play you like a harp. But I don't see the point. It's fun to troll some people, but to troll you would just be sad.
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Why would I bother to do that? Tell you how smart I am. That accomplishes nothing. You have already formed your option of that, and anything I say will not change that.
You are mistaken about one thing. I did get the response I was looking for. I have drawn you out in to conversation. That is what I was trying to accomplish.
It wasn't your insults that attracted me to respond to you. I honestly could care less what people think about me personally. I've been on the internet way to long to be affe
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Boring!
Tell me more about this fame thing you brought up.
It was the professor, in the conservatory (Score:2)
Dr. Evil (Score:2)
Didn't he already outline his plan in that early 2000s documentary?
East Asia? (Score:2)
Whew! This time it wasn't me.
Sigh. (Score:4, Insightful)
You know when you "recycle" all those old fridges and freezers.
And it costs a bucket to throw them away.
And then a market starts up around a slightly cheaper way to do it.
And the company just takes your equipment, ships it abroad, to someone who just signs off that it's being disposed of properly (but who doesn't care because it's not his life he's hurting).
And then the abroad country, not having any care at all for such things as they get a nice backhander to bury a bit of rubbish, just throws it in landfill..
Yeah... there. That's where I'd start.
Like when you GPS-track waste electronics and find out it almost all ends up in landfill in India, China, etc. and isn't even processed at all.
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no, they don't throw it in landfill. they strip it and of course poke the tubing to let the CFCs out before selling it
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no, they don't throw it in landfill. they strip it and of course poke the tubing to let the CFCs out before selling it
I have literally seen the CFCs being withdrawn from refrigeration units before being sent overseas as scrap for recycling. Granted, that was here in California...
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Freon 12 is still worth more than $10/lb. It's the most valuable scrap (by weight) in old fridges.
Recovery is routine. Home central ACs are freon recovered before removal.
Re:Sigh. (Score:5, Informative)
700 Million Leaky Air Conditioners? (Score:2)
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The number of households with fridges and air conditioners is growing exponentially. Would hundreds of Asian cities with millions of households with leaky ACs not throw up a plume? https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
Only if they got hold of still working 30 year old air conditioners, or someone have started making 1980s tech air-cons again.
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Not only that, modern CFC replacements are toxic enough to kill everyone in the car if the coils develop a fast leak.
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Bullshit.. For example, the LC50 for R134a is more than 500,000 parts per million while the LC50 for R12 is around 750,000 parts per million. In either case, that's a mighty big leak in an automobile to displace most of the air.
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Which could just mean they had insufficient airflow or were low on refrigerant.
Ifs and buts are candy and nuts (Score:2)
This is all you need to know about any global environmental agreements
"...with only temporary exception of a few economically developing countries."
"If everyone fulfills their end of the deal..."
CFC (Score:2)
CFC-11:
Either someone's making a shed-load of fridges.
Doing a load of resonance imaging.
Or...
"Trichlorofluoromethane was formerly used in the drinking bird novelty"
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CFC-11:
Either someone's making a shed-load of fridges.
Doing a load of resonance imaging.
Or...
Someone's hyperscale offshore cryptomining datacenter has an unregulated cooling system which sprung a leak...
If we are just tossing out things...
Reseachers say it's refrigerator recycling: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The usual suspects (Score:5, Funny)
Wow, that narrows it down to only three billion people! Great detective work.
Re:The usual suspects (Score:4, Interesting)
Low cost, export approved. Keep CFC going just for domestic consumer use?
A domestic factory and imports would soon out pace 1970's CFC tech.
A production line that was perfected in 1970-80, needs lots of CFC and has never been replaced?
What advanced industry, consumer use could that be? That is not now low cost for consumers?
That opens up non consumer use. A secret that relates to a lot of CFC.
What old military design can release a lot of CFC and is worth the risk for a nation to try?
Someone is cooking and is in a rush for the result.
Re: The usual suspects (Score:2, Troll)
Re: The usual suspects (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: The usual suspects (Score:3)
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And yet it is the routine retrofit and replacement gas that is used constantly in exactly the applications you describe it as not being the replacement. Just because your duty suffers slightly doesn't make it a direct replacement.
The problem is that we're now legislating that 'need'.
Do you still wash your windows in benzine? Do you still use leaded paint and petrol? Do you still use large tubes of mercury to make tilt switches? You can thank legislation for your current life expectancy and the world you live in. Screw your shitty compressor and its duty cycle.
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TFS says "East Asia". India is not in East Asia by anybody's definition of that term.
On another note, wouldn't it be fun if this turned out to be Japan or North Korea?
Re: The usual suspects (Score:2)
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Hence "fun", if it turned out to be either of them.
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South Asia [wikipedia.org].
Re: The usual suspects (Score:2)
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CFCs are greenhouse gasses but their bigger problem is that they "eat" ozone. The Montreal agreement dealt with the ozone depletion problem though.
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Yeah, I thought of the same film. Only now, he needs to go to China, where 1/3 to 1/2 of co2 alone comes from.
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Theory shot.
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detected 4 years ago.
Kilauea has been there for millions of years.
And volcanoes do NOT release CFCs
You know this how? Proving a negative ....
nor are they used in geothermal electricity production.
What's this [cbsnews.com]?
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detected 4 years ago.
Kilauea has been there for millions of years.
Yes, but the article is about a project that has been tracking CFCs in the atmosphere for many years seeing a new source of CFC-11 starting around 2012. That's not "millions of years".
And, not seeing a new source of other CFCs, just CFC-11. Volcanoes don't emit CFC-11 (there just aren't any magma sources for fluorine-- volcanic gasses to worry about are hydrogen sulfide and sulfur di- and tri-oxide.)
What's this [cbsnews.com]?
"This" is a news article that says of the geothermal plant at Puna "a flammable gas called pentane is used
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It would be trivial to check if it was volcanoes. They would know by now.
Also why only in the last few years, volcanoes have been around quite a bit longer than that...
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Gosh, if only there were other volcanoes around the world we could use to compare its output with, or monitoring stations all over the world's volcanoes for all kinds of gas analysis?
Not the Volcano in Hawaii (Score:2)
Don't volcanoes release mass quantities of CFC's?
No, volcanoes emit a large amount of many noxious gases (most notably sulfur oxides), but CFCs aren't among them-- these are man made, and have no natural sources.
The original article https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com] (which would have been a better reference) said that the increase in northern hemisphere CFC-11 started in 2012, which is years before the current Hawaiian eruption.