Idaho Wants To Establish America's First 'Dark Sky Preserve' (idahostatesman.com) 136
schwit1 shares a story from the AP:
Tourists heading to central Idaho will be in the dark if local officials get their way. The first International Dark Sky Reserve in the United States would fill a chunk of the state's sparsely populated region that contains night skies so pristine that interstellar dust clouds are visible in the Milky Way... Supporters say excess artificial light causes sleeping problems for people and disrupts nocturnal wildlife and that a dark sky can solve those problems, boost home values and draw tourists. Opposition to dark sky measures elsewhere in the U.S. have come from the outdoor advertising industry and those against additional government regulations.
Researchers say 80 percent of North Americans live in areas where light pollution blots out the night sky. Central Idaho contains one of the few places in the contiguous United States large enough and dark enough to attain reserve status, Barentine said. Only 11 such reserves exist in the world... The proposed Idaho reserve is mainly land managed by the U.S. Forest Service and contains the wilderness of the Sawtooth National Recreation Area... Leaders in the cities of Ketchum and Sun Valley, the tiny mountain town of Stanley, other local and federal officials, and a conservation group have been working for several years to apply this fall to designate 1,400 square miles (3,600 square kilometers) as a reserve. A final decision by the association would come about 10 weeks after the application is submitted.
Researchers say 80 percent of North Americans live in areas where light pollution blots out the night sky. Central Idaho contains one of the few places in the contiguous United States large enough and dark enough to attain reserve status, Barentine said. Only 11 such reserves exist in the world... The proposed Idaho reserve is mainly land managed by the U.S. Forest Service and contains the wilderness of the Sawtooth National Recreation Area... Leaders in the cities of Ketchum and Sun Valley, the tiny mountain town of Stanley, other local and federal officials, and a conservation group have been working for several years to apply this fall to designate 1,400 square miles (3,600 square kilometers) as a reserve. A final decision by the association would come about 10 weeks after the application is submitted.
Black helicopters (Score:3, Funny)
Clearly the government doesn't want dark skies. It'd make it too easy to spot the UFOs on their way to & from Area 21.
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I thought they were from area 51?
Oh....
Clever black ops guys...
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That's exactly what they want you to th1&l-;l..
no carrier
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That has to do with what?
Here are some more facts: 1) Silicon Valley is an overpriced bubble. 2) The tech industry and startups are not the savior of the universe.
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I fall in neither camp. I think there is artificially limited supply.
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Correct. Nimby bullshit keeps the rents artificially high in SF.
Well, plenty of people don't think that, say, tearing down the Painted Ladies [wikipedia.org] and replacing them with high-rises is that great of an idea either. There's only so many people you can pack into an area before a lot of them feel like they're becoming rats packed together, and that's no way to live. So yeah, expect opposition from them when outsiders come in and want to develop on top of them.
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Only 'free enough markets'.
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You don't understand markets, just obviously.
The rules are just costs associated with each place, the person/company gets to choose, based on imperfect knowledge. Free enough.
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It's natural law, not society.
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That's right, expand the definition until words are meaningless and can no longer be discussed. You must be really fun at parties.
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They are they are staying the tower of pisa
Nice (Score:1)
Sounds good.
Crime not Advertizing (Score:4, Insightful)
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Funny how dead against it some seem to be if that's true.
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This is in the middle of the fucking wilderness where there aren't any lights or people.
Um, that's the point... they want to **preserve** that. You see spaces like those are becoming more and more scarce and they are anticipating a time when developers may come descending one day and say "You know what... I envision a great development opportunity here! Let's start building!!!"
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they want to **preserve** that
And it's supposed to draw tourists, which will mean the end of the dark sky.
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There is a funny tendency of people to put high intensity lights on top of entirely unmanned systems. Microwave relays, solar farms, remote storage facilities, high tension towers, water tanks, and so on. These lights do nothing useful, waste power, but seem to be assumed to be required.
It is really astonishing how far a single high intensity light that is not shielded can contaminate the night sly with pollution. It does not take many such ill-considered light fixtures to contaminate an otherwise pristine
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Most of those lights probably are required due to FAA regulations so planes don't fly into those structures at night. From a brief googling of this it seems any structure over 200 feet above ground level needs either lighting or a specially designed aviation paint warning pattern. I would expect more people would opt for the paint, but it's possible that particular paint is quite expensive.
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Might have something to do with the high age adjusted suicide rate.
Re:Crime not Advertizing (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, suicide increases as access to guns decreases.
Wait... do you really think the suicide rate would actually go down in Japan if guns were more readily available there?
If anything, I think it'd go up even higher. Guns and gun laws aren't WHY people commit suicide, guns are just a relatively quick and reliable and way TO commit suicide.
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So it's pitch black. And everyone's walking around with unlicensed firearms...
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Idaho has its own way of minimizing crime - shoot back.
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Idaho has a much more effective strategy for minimizing crime - reducing the number of human beings there. Having a little under 8 people per sq.km, you'd be able to see your neighbours (unless they're behind a tree), and might just be able to hit one with a sniper rifle (358m, if you do the sums - not a competition-winning shot, but you need to be at least competent.)
Re:Crime not Advertizing (Score:4, Informative)
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The most effective thing would probably be a motion sensor light. It's great against criminals, the sudden illumination attracts attention as people wonder what triggered it. At the same time it reduces light pollution.
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I tried in vain for years to convince my local HOA of this, they would have none of it. Despite our Alley way being a private street, H shaped with no through traffic, they still insisted that we must have our alley light on. It was obvious that none of my neighbors believed it was necessary ... One of the chairs of the committee would always spread the false safety concern on the Facebook group, and I'd always reply with the studies that shows that more light does not correlate to less crime, to which he would be dismissive.
Unfortunately, this kind of story is typical. We have an interesting situation in the USA with respect to HOAs. It is obvious to any competent thinker that HOAs - in practice - violate MANY fundamental rights arising under the 9th and 10th Amendments.
This in turn means that contract and property law is being used as a mechanism is infringe fundamental rights "under the colour of law", which has been criminal offence under US federal law since the post-Civil War reconstruction era.
In effect, by writing the
Re: Crime not Advertizing (Score:2)
The thing is, though that in this case you can have your cake, and eat it too. It's Entirely possible to illuminate an area while confining the light to produce little to no sky glow. In a lot of these situations the lighting is actually far more effective, producing dramatically less glare, more even illumination, and a reduction in shadowed areas.
The problem is that it takes actual thought, design, and quality fixtures to implement.
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A good thing I think (Score:5, Informative)
Here in South Australia, the Astronomy Society of South Australia is also involved in this process, applying to the International Darksky Association for formal accreditation of the Mid-Murray region ( http://www.rivermurraydarkskyr... [rivermurra...eserve.org] ), a very sparsely populated region with significant areas of national park. I'd be interested to know know the differences in local legislation/recognition required between the US and South Australia. I'm not involved myself, but from what I've heard the local council here are very supportive.
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Of course it's sparsely populated. There's no water.
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Realistically speaking most of Australia fits the bill for a dark-sky preserve. The population density outside of urban areas is very low.
In Europe I can confirm (Score:1)
I have never seen the night sky here. It's just an orange glow.
Re: In Europe I can confirm (Score:5, Interesting)
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Similar thing for me, except it was in North Wales on an outdoor pursuits course. We must have found, by pure chance, a place where any light from roads or villages was masked by the mountainous terrain and there was no cloud either.
We sat gawping at it all for about an hour in more or less silence. And no, we hadn't been eating any strange plants or fungi.
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It's even better with strange plants and fungi.
One of the coolest thing I ever saw was a meteor shower (Perseids IIRC) while I was deep in the Ozarks at the same time the lightning bugs, in their millions, were horny.
I might have been consuming some fine Ozark mountain retardo weed, but it only made it better.
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The Night Sky (Score:2)
There is nothing like the undiminished beauty of the night sky. Go find an open field somewhere and go stargazing, if you've never been. Learn the constellations if you have time, yes, but just seeing the entire vista, lying down and opening your eyes as wide as you can and consciously taking in visually as much as the sky as you can is amazing. It's criminal that so many kids never get to see that.
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(And to be clear, this open field should not be central park, where you can see ten stars. It should be hours to the North, where can see thousands.)
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I was 19 or 20, a New York City kid. Went up to the Finger Lakes region of New York State for a family wedding. Went outside one night, noticed that the moon was so bright that I could read by it, looked up...
no moon. It was the starlight that I could read by. Just. Blew. My. Mind.
I love it! (Score:2)
Pushes buttons on a lot of people!
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Pushes buttons on a lot of people!
Dark Skies Matter
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If you can see them.... higher up it's possible and looks great!
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Manitoulin Island is also a Dark Sky Preserve, and it's VERY close to Michigan.
I was there this summer and took great pix of the Milky Way.
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There already is a dark sky preserve in America. It's located in southern Quebec, Canada, around the Mont Megantic observatory.
There's a dark sky preserve in southern Michigan: Dark sky preserve at Lake Hudson state recreation area [visitlenawee.com]. My wife & I go camping there often, and have watched the Perseid showers and a lunar eclipse.
Start by putting lamp shades on the streetlights (Score:2)
Why do we have to shine all that light into the sky?
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Switch to sodium-vapor lamp and observatories can filter out the narrow notch of orange-yellow light it produces. Or use smart lamps that permit the scheduling of lowering of the level of street lights.
With highways that are mandatory self-driving you could also eliminate street lights and headlights.
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Switch to sodium-vapor lamp and observatories can filter out the narrow notch of orange-yellow light it produces.
Doesn't help visual observation of the night sky. It's beauty is not only about measuring space with expensive science toys.
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I assumed you packed up a telescope when you looked up, so put a filter on it. Orion sells a wide range of filters. And while they are not super cheap they are in the price range of a hobbyist, especially one that was willing to travel to Idaho.
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A filter is only able to block light. The problem with blocking light is ... you are blocking light. So while it is able to increase contrast between the object and the background sky it doesn't actually make those objects any brighter, quite the opposite. A dark sky trumps filtering every time.
Also for non-visual astronomy filtering doesn't help if your goal is true colour images. A UHC filter or similar light pollution reduction filter massively skews the colour spectrum. Personally I've taken to doing na
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A filter is only able to block light.
Yes, that's basically the definition of the word filter in every science.
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Then it should be obvious why it is not an ideal solution.
But it's not obvious. It amazing the number of times I've had to explain this to people in various contexts, including at astronomy conventions where people in general should know better.
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Switch to sodium-vapor lamp and observatories can filter out the narrow notch of orange-yellow light it produces. Or use smart lamps that permit the scheduling of lowering of the level of street lights.
Using both approaches would be of greater benefit. There is no reason at all to have light leaking skyward, it's both a waste of energy, and pollutes the night sky for ordinary people to observe.
With highways that are mandatory self-driving you could also eliminate street lights and headlights.
Most self driving systems rely on visual observations to stay in the lane. Tesla's stated goal is to be able to do full autonomy with only normal camera's and not the whole ladar gizmos that Google uses. Unless we start building other kind of track and location information into the roads it would be hard to make
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Most self driving systems rely on visual observations to stay in the lane. Tesla's stated goal is to be able to do full autonomy with only normal camera's and not the whole ladar gizmos that Google uses. Unless we start building other kind of track and location information into the roads it would be hard to make sure that you stay on the road. Headlights should be sufficient for this, and streetlights not needed.
It's my job actually. So you don't need a full spectrum of light for it to work. And if you've seen what training is like for night driving you'd realize how wrong you are about current computer vision systems. The systems are definitely designed to not need street lights, so there is the bigger half of the two down for astronomy.
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In Altadena, north of Pasadena, California, there nicknamed "Christmas Tree Lane." It is just a street. For decades at Christmas tree lights have been hung from the trees in December, and across the street over the road. The usual street lights are turned off. Driving down the street with your lights turned off is--magical. Or fun. The low level lights, just your basic traditional incandescent X-mas outdoor bulbs (unless they've changed it recently) are more than enough to drive by on residential streets.
Ge
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Ummmmm, yes we do. Go up a few floors above the level of the street lights and you see tons of light pointed towards the sky. There is no reason to have the bulb hang below the shade.
Dark, clear, skies are beautiful (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll offer that the few times I've been driving through the middle of frelling nowhere in the middle of a clear night, I've been awed by the number of stars visible and the scene above me. Stop, kill the lights, and stare up in wonder...
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It seems a shame that so many have had this birthright stolen from them for ...well...ugly looking street lights. Which don't even actually reduce crime (there is even evidence that they increase crime). It would be nice if once in a while, we could pick a night and turn the lights off so people can actually see the sky, and perhaps discover that the night isn't really all that scary.
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Stop, kill the lights, wait for eyes to adjust, have the local sheriffs deputy stop to check out the car on the side of the road and totally blow your night vision...
Didn't give me any trouble, other than the blown night vision. Admittedly I was pulled off on a county road in the middle of nowhere but I'd found a spot I could get fully off the road and my car is orange so anyone else with their lights on would have spotted us.
Shame there isn't more of this. (Score:2)
With LEDs, the challenges in outdoor lighting we faced years ago are fairly trivial to solve. There are a few code changes that are required (1 foot-candle/10 lux minimum exterior egress pathway lighting to the public right-of-way being the dumbest), and a little more regulation in a few areas to keep people from installing ineffective "glare bomb" wall mounted lights.
Even lighting a billboard with zero uplight isn't that hard, and with a dark sky you use a hell of a lot less energy.
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You can either internally illuminate with shaped refractors, or simply angle the billboard down 5-10 degrees and light from the top.
You might end up with 2-3% uplight, but it beats the 60% that is typical with traditional designs.
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With LEDs, the challenges in outdoor lighting we faced years ago are fairly trivial to solve.
People will just over-light anyway because that's what they do and LEDs are a cheaper way of achieving this. The improved directionality isn't all that helpful because there's now more light hitting surfaces and so more reflecting off those surfaces and into to the atmosphere. Plus they're delivering white light and you can't filter this out as effectively with light pollution filters. Over the years I've been seeing orange low pressure sodium glows replaced with white glows from LEDs. The latter are worse.
I'm loving it (Score:2)
The few times in my life that I've been in a truly dark place under a clear night sky have all been amazingly awe-inspiring.
All press, no substance (Score:2)
We are talking about central Idaho. Hardly anyone lives there in the first place. Also, good luck getting cell phone service.
Source: Me. I live in Idaho.
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Aside from one point in Glens Ferry, you were driving thru the populated part of Idaho (you might find that hard to believe). But if you head north into the mountains things thin our a tad.
Re:All press, no substance (Score:4, Insightful)
now a bunch of people will move to idaho (Score:2)
Good! (Score:4, Interesting)
I was stationed in Idaho in the 80's, on the way back from camping in the mountains we were traveling down a pitch dark dirt road for like 30 miles late at night, i looked up and told my friends to pull over , they were like why? We pulled over,shut off the lights and when our eyes finally adjusted, there was the milky way, and it was breathtaking! We all climbed on the hood and lay back on the windshield for an hour, just mesmerized by all the stars, best trip ever! You don't realize how much sky youre missing until you see it from a pitch dark location, this needs preserving!
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Ever look through a 1M telescope? An astronamer friend of mine built one from very precise mirrors. What I saw was just amazing. Galaxy after galaxy oriented different ways and different colors and it filled up the entire viewing area even though I was looking at a very small fraction of the sky. This was on a night that it was about 15F out. VERY clear sky. It can change your perspective on things.
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I would *love* to have your friend for my friend. I once owned a 12" telescope, around 0.3m. Amazing, photons from a galaxy tens of millions of light years away end their journeys in my eyeball. (I thought about looking at 3C273, which IIRC is *billions* of light years away, but never did.)
Psalm 19.
How is this first? (Score:2)
Light Pollution is lame, but this is stupid. (Score:2)
You can already see the night sky in all its glory in almost 1/4 of the continental united states, which is managed by the BLM. You can literally drive into it, if you have a 4x4. Or in the dry season, anything with decent ground clearance. The amount of space with essentially zero lights in it is larger than the entire godforsaken state of Ohio.
Light pollution is stupid, though. When I see a streetlight without a reflector I want to punch someone in the dick.
I've never had a problem sleeping (Score:2)
Light pollution was created by the government (Score:2)
Zillow (Score:2)
not bad housing prices, for those of us who like dark skies...
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Can you say "stereotype"? I knew you could...