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Science

'Older Fathers Have Geekier Sons' (bbc.com) 145

Posted by msmash from the interesting-studies dept.
An anonymous reader shares a BBC article: Men who delay starting a family are more likely to have "geekier" sons, a study suggests. They were brighter, more focused and less bothered about fitting in -- according to the "Geek Index" devised by King's College London. The mother's age had no impact, and daughters seemed to be immune. One scientist said a trend for delayed parenthood might mean we were heading towards a "society of geniuses" able to solve the world's problems. The findings are rare good news in the science of delayed fatherhood. Repeated studies have shown that older sperm is more prone to genetic errors and children are more likely to develop autism and schizophrenia.
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'Older Fathers Have Geekier Sons'

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  • "Good news" (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Followed immediately by pointing out that men over 45 are virtually guaranteed to have autistic children.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by TWX ( 665546 )

      I can actually refer to my own extended family as a bit of a case-study, my paternal grandparents had 17 children, eight of them boys. Dad was the last one, when Grandpa was 56 or so. There's no autism in the family, and Grandpa was a farmer and then retired-farmer when Dad was growing up, so it wasn't like he passed-on any particularly geeky habits or hobbies.

      The later males did progressively better in their incomes and in having technical careers the further along, when discounting the first son, who en

      • It is interesting to be a living case study - but I wonder how much was correlation versus causation? Computer science jobs existed by time your Dad was born.

    • Followed immediately by pointing out that men over 45 are virtually guaranteed to have autistic children.

      Aspberger's syndrome appears to be a case of defining being a nerd/geek as a mental disorder.

      If they're still considering aspberger's to be a subset of autism, "men over 40 have geekier children" implying "men over 40 are virtually guaranteed to have autistic children" is a tautology.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Megane ( 129182 )
      From what I've seen, it correlates with both parents being over a certain age. So single GenX guys, start looking for that perfect 27-year-old!

    • Followed immediately by pointing out that men over 45 are virtually guaranteed to have autistic children.

      This narrative being sold is not currently supported by evidence. Certainly, men over a certain age have a higher probability to sire problem-children[1], but compared to women over a certain age the probability is so small it's a damn rounding error. You can safely ignore the probability.

      [1] Meaning "Children with medical problems", obviously.

    • Re:"Good news" (Score:4, Interesting)

      by GeekWithAKnife ( 2717871 ) on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @02:36AM (#54659171)

      Your sarcasm is amusing...but the take away on the sperm front would probably be that you can should keep it as healthy as you can.

      We know that activities like smoking damages the quantity and quality of sperm. We also know that eating healthily and being physically active have wide ranging benefits including having a positive effect on sperm.

      My take away is that men should take care of themselves so their sperm is still very good quality at 35 and at the same time they have the financial, emotional and intellectual basis to become not only caring and loving but also effective fathers.

      Also, the likelihood of autism, schizophrenia and down syndrome in babies of older healthy parents is greatly over played. If memory serves a couple aged forty are three times as likely to have a child with down syndrome! - sounds like a huge risk...until you see figures like 1 in 350 is your base chance and that goes to 1 in 100 at 40. (Source: http://www.mayoclinic.org/dise... [mayoclinic.org] )

      So if you are a young man or woman and you drink or you smoke, or you don't sleep, or you eat junk all the time, you dont exercise or even dabble in drugs - think about it.

      It never ceases to amaze me how a young guy can spend hours fixing and polishing his car or a young woman puts in so much effort into her looks and dress but their body?! it suffers abuses to no end. Your body is your only vehicle, treat it well and it will carry you.

  • Can confirm. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dtmancom ( 925636 ) <gordon2@[ ]an.com ['dtm' in gap]> on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:24PM (#54656643) Homepage
    Had my only child, a male child, at the age of 35. He is now 11 and is very much Dad's science geek.

    Couldn't be prouder.

  • Can't play with kids since they're too old and... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:26PM (#54656655)

    tired so the kids have to get smarter and play with themselves.

    • Re:Can't play with kids since they're too old and. (Score:5, Funny)

      by The Grim Reefer ( 1162755 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:08PM (#54657381)

      the kids have to get smarter and play with themselves.

      That would explain why they need glasses, which places them higher on the "geek index".

    • Can't play with kids since they're too old and tired so the kids have to get smarter and play with themselves.

      That really is an eye-wateringly daft thing to say. As anybody knows, who'se had the benefit of grandparents taking care of the children, children and grandparents get along extremely well, in general. Part of this is because older people often have more time than the actual parents, but a large part of it is down to the fact that as you get older and more mature, you also tend to become more tolerant, creative and interested. So, where a young father is mostly interested in sex, beer, football and sex, an

    • anecdotally, my father who had me at 45 was more athletic than 90% of people half his age. I still turned out borderline autistic (kidding -- I think).

      my dad has a similar personality though, so I don't know how conclusively we can talk about the role of age.

      I suspect the theory in OP is valid, or that your father/parents have more time to raise you (i was using the internet by 4), or a combination of both. Athleticism seems like a stretch. Fat parents aren't having autistic genius children.

      My parents al

  • It would certainly explain these results.

  • It's about the money (Score:5, Interesting)

    by chispito ( 1870390 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:36PM (#54656707)
    The older you are when you have kids, the more you are earning, the more disposable income you (and your parents or in-laws) can spend on quality toys and activities, instead of just trying to keep the heat on and food on the table. Also you're probably more educated, so there's that.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      It's about the intelligence to wait until you have the money. Correlation, cause, effect, and all that.

      • If you're going to have children, it's not particularly intelligent to wait until there's likely to be fertility and birth defect problems. If society pushes people that way, then society is stupid.

    • of this [huffingtonpost.com].

    • Let's not forget maturity and life experience. Guys in the 20s (particularly early 20s) frankly still tend to a lot of stupid stuff. No, I'm not intending to insult any young people around here, and I'll fully cop to this myself. But it's the reason why insurance rates, for example, are so high for young men -- they get into more accidents because they do riskier things and simply aren't as mature.

      Eventually life experience kicks in -- for some later than others. By the time you're a little older, you

      • Or is it the other way - nerdier/geekier guys tend to not have kids until later in life, so the kid's personality is influenced by these social factors rather than simply just the age of the parent.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Likely the best explenation (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ark1 ( 873448 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:36PM (#54656713)
    "Geekier dads could be taking longer to start a family and pass on geeky traits to their children"

    • Re:Likely the best explenation (Score:5, Insightful)

      by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:47PM (#54656797)

      "Geekier dads could be taking longer to start a family and pass on geeky traits to their children"

      Possibly, but I think another aspect could be the maturity of the father.

      Guys in their 20s spend more time hanging out with other guys doing active social activities

      Older guys are going more activities that are well structure and individual in nature.

      A child is going to pick up on and emulate those things.

      Shared activities also matter, an older father might spend more time deliberately training the child while a younger man might try to act as the child's playmate.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ark1 ( 873448 )
        Definitely, BBC article is short on the actual methodology. We don't really know which factors were adjusted for. An interesting result would be to know if within the same family the younger sibling was more geeky since the father would have been older when they had him.
        • I think you're on point with control factors. If they didn't control for income or education they may find that people with higher incomes or more education tend to have children later. Correlation v. causation and all that.

        • In that case, you have to control for birth order. There's lots of things affected by birth order.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      "Geekier dads could be taking longer to start a family and pass on geeky traits to their children"

      Yep. It just takes them a lot longer to get laid.

  • My father found me to be a disappointment. He could never understood why I wasn't interested in cars and more interested in computers. As I would explained to him many years later, my older brother (not his son) was analog and I was digital.
    • I don't understand. You earn $55k in IT in Silicon Valley and are protecting our country from hackers. What else could a father want from his son?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sinij ( 911942 )
        Clearly, he would rather his son drag old Chevelle while beating his wife at the same time.

      • I don't understand. You earn $55k in IT in Silicon Valley and are protecting our country from hackers. What else could a father want from his son?

        My father died five years ago. Six weeks before he died from terminal throat cancer, I started a PC refresh project at a local hospital and my first day on the job was in the cancer ward. A tough situation all around. I think he would be proud that I'm the highest wage earner in our blue collar family and protecting the country from hackers.

        • Well if he isn't proud of you, I am! Thank you for your service to our country. It is much safer with you looking out for us.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by TWX ( 665546 )

      I was interested in computers until I made a career out of them. Now I'm interested in cars, and I make a living with computers.

    • That's harsh. In my case it was my mother... Actually, both my parents had basically 19th century outlooks and couldn't grasp what I was doing in front of the computer all day. (A VIC-20).
      In fact, they had to be persuaded by a neighbor to get me that VIC in the first place. I never got a single word of encouragement or support. My parents were simply bewildered by anything more complex than a radio or a turntable. And this made them angry I guess.

      They were also angry at each other, and took that out on me,

  • Haha (Score:2)

    by tsa ( 15680 )

    "One scientist said a trend for delayed parenthood might mean we were heading towards a "society of geniuses" able to solve the world's problems."

    That is the funniest thing I've read today. Hilarious!

  • Autism and Schizophrenia? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Geeks by another name.

  • Multiple genetic studies showed that older fathers correspond to higher genetic load (this is bad) for all offspring.

  • Post-hoc bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BenBoy ( 615230 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:52PM (#54656847)
    When do smart dads have kids? Later, when they're ready. When do autistic dads have kids? Later, when their successes outweigh their drawbacks, and they've learned to compensate. What sort of kids do dads have when they reproduce later? Smart. Autistic. Like their dads. Cuz genetics. Which is not to say that this is the explanation. It's just to say that the 'conclusions' drawn by this study (at least as summarized) are ... let's say speculative at best.

    • couldn't we say a smarter kid is one with just the right touch of autism, having just enough to stay focused and be a deep thinker?

    • All things being equal... anyone consider that maybe the old dads are just too old/fat to go play outside and prefer geeky indoor activities with their children?

    • Since the article does not actually settle on any causal relationship, just proposals, the only source of post-hoc bullshit is you.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by BenBoy ( 615230 )
        Given that I did caveat my statement, saying that I'd only read the summary, and given your failure to understand the term "post-hoc", I'm guessing your parents were rather young when they had you. My sympathies on your misfortune.

        • 'failure to understand the term "post-hoc"'

          The relevant usage, since it actually has a negative connotation, is "post hoc ergo propter hoc" meaning that which occurs later is assumed to occur as a result of i.e. a causal relationship. Since the article does not claim a causal relationship this use of post hoc is incorrect.

          There is also the usage in "post hoc analysis", where data is collected and then patterns are looked for. Since this is not an inherently negative term yet you supplying nothing to justify

  • more sperm mutations too (Score:3)

    by peter303 ( 12292 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:54PM (#54656865)
    On average each parent contributes 30 mutations to offspring. But fathers contribution is approximately one per year of age.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      And 99.99% of those mutations have no discernible effect on the offspring's ability to reproduce and raise its own offspring to fertile age.

    • For female offsprings, not for males: hint, aging of sperms is for female sperms and male sperms completely different.

  • we suck at it, but we worry about it (and a lot of other things, we tend to be neurotic).

    • That wasn't my experience. Worry about fitting in? Not really. I always had a few good friends growing up, and that was all I cared about. Even so, I learned to listen and not make an ass of myself, so existing in a room of strangers or vague acquaintances wasn't a problem for me. Sure, I had a few bullies to deal with, but most of them were poor souls who were themselves bullied and thought I would be an easy target. I wasn't. Neurotic? I believe I was less neurotic than the majority of my classmates

  • Older Sperm (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Repeated studies have shown that older sperm is more prone to genetic errors and children are more likely to develop autism and schizophrenia.

    I rarely have any sperm that are more than a day old.

  • 4 sons, 2 daughters. My eldest daughter, who I had when I was 29, is autistic. My youngest daughter, who I had when I was 43, is 3-4 years ahead for her age at school. She's 5, can read, write (beautiful flowing, joined up writing) and taught me a word about grammar I didn't know yesterday.
    The "old sperm" stats don't stand up well with my offspring.
    My boys are all geeks, just like their father. The eldest is 21 and the youngest is 1.
    I caught the one year old brushing his teeth out of the toilet while his br

  • Older as in older than the chick they're banging, or older as in both are roughly the same more advanced age?

  • There is a mounting body of research that it is not just genes that are passed on from parents to children but epigenetic markers as well. These markers affect gene expression and suppression and are just as important as the genes themselves. Unlike genes, they are constantly changing due to environmental pressures thus providing a mechanism to pass on a sort of genetic memory of the parents life experience which should help prepare their children for the conditions they are likely to encounter. Research ha

  • Had my eldest at 29 and he's pretty 'geeky' and loves science.

  • They were brighter, more focused and less bothered about fitting in -- according to the "Geek Index" devised by King's College London.

    Maybe older dads care less about fitting in, and their kids learn to follow their own interests more. When I'm doing what I want I'm more focused because it holds my interest.

  • an alternative headline might be "Fathers who Spend More than Six Hours a Week with their Children Raise more Active and Stable Children".

    of course that would piss off the Procrustean-egalitarian left, and it would outright terrify the "work 'em 'til they drop" business-friendly right.

    so let's invent some totally bogus bullshit about telomeres and autism. wheeeee!

    • Actually, as part of the left, I think everyone should have the opportunity for a good life including enough free time to raise a child. I don't know where you get the idea that the left disapproves of childraising.

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