Around 2.2 Million Deaths in a Year in India and China From Air Pollution (cnbc.com) 123
India is on the verge of overtaking China as the country with the most deaths caused by air pollution, the world's biggest environmental killer, according to research published on Tuesday. From a report: The State of Global Air 2017 report states that extensive, long-term exposure to fine particulate matter contributed to more than four million premature deaths in 2015. The report is a joint effort between the Health Effects Institute and the Institute for Health Metrics and Evalution's Global Burden of Disease Project. "We are seeing increasing air pollution problems worldwide," Dan Greenbaum, president of the Health Effects Institute, said in a statement. "The trends we report show that we have seen progress in some parts of the world -- but serious challenges remain," Greenbaum went on to add. The report's analysis showed that India -- with extra exposure and its aging population -- now competes with China in terms of air pollution health burdens. Both countries saw around 1.1 million early deaths due to air pollution in 2015.
An extraordinary figure... (Score:4, Insightful)
How many lives are saved by air pollution (Score:5, Insightful)
Presumably the air pollution is coming from some activities that raise living standards to afford clean water, public hospitals, health insurance, and reduced crime. Can we have a figure on how many lives are saved by air pollution as well?
Yes in an ideal world we can have both so it's important to recognize air pollution is more than an eyesore.
Re:How many lives are saved by air pollution (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's a hint: The pollution can be reduced, easily, simply, and yet too many industrial hacks will act as if that will be the DOOM of all mankind as it drags us back to the Neolithic.
We are talking about India and China. Billions of people uplifted by coal.
The bottleneck to first world living for the people in these countries right now is the rate at which they can expand their energy production. You are a spoiled 1st world dipshit that has no clue.
pollution is from burning fields (Score:5, Informative)
Presumably the air pollution is coming from some activities that raise living standards to afford clean water, public hospitals, health insurance, and reduced crime.
Nope.
In India, the worst of the air pollution is generated from burning fields after harvest. There are other technologies to clear the fields, such as a tractor-mounted seeder, which is actually better for the fields, as well as for the air-- but they cost over a thousand dollars each, far too much for the small farmers.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/delhi-chokes-on-smoke-from-neighbouring-states/story-zAkXkflle5MoUXLNYfZa0H.html
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/delhi-air-poolution-in-haryana-farmers-say-burning-fields-their-only-option-3739415/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/03/world/asia/farmers-unchecked-crop-burning-fuels-indias-air-pollution.html?_r=0
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Nope Nope.
they are earning their standard of living by farming. If they can't have a tractor then they have to burn. So you made the point you just said nope to.
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Presumably the air pollution is coming from some activities that raise living standards to afford clean water, public hospitals, health insurance, and reduced crime. Can we have a figure on how many lives are saved by air pollution as well?
Yes in an ideal world we can have both so it's important to recognize air pollution is more than an eyesore.
If you're going to take that line of logic, might as well label the deaths caused by air pollution as a good thing because it's a form of population control.
In fact, causing death is viewed by many governments as a necessary component of resource management, which is the reason we'll probably see some pointless volley of politics back and forth on this, but nothing actually done about the overall problem.
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What makes you think the benefits are accruing to the masses?
Those things aren't mutually exclusive (Score:2)
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I hear a lot of the pollution from India in the winter is from night watchmen in commercial establishments who burn little wood fires to stay warm. Incredibly polluting relative to the benefits, but apparently they don't have a better option.
India seems to be at the "sweet spot" where they are developed enough to create tons of pollution but aren't developed enough to eliminate it. China is a little further along, they have started taking significant steps to minimize pollution.
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... but what kind of doctor will attribute a particular death to air pollution? There is no question that air quality is very poor and heavy industry shits on people in certain areas but pulling a hard number like that out of it is odd.
Why are you talking about doctors? I'd expect this data to be gathered by epidemiologists. I'd expect it to come from studies like "here is one sample population with X level of pollution, here is a demographically similar sample population with Y level of pollution, and we observe the following medical difference trends between the two populations".
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You're right. No doctor puts "air pollution" as the cause of death.
They put, lung disease, heart disease, cancer, etc.
Epidemiologists give us the big picture.
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Re:But let's dig more coal to burn, right? (Score:5, Informative)
Well just so you know the problem here isn't coal, it's the fact that neither China nor India use any air crubbing technology at all in their power plants. Unlike power plants in the US. Which is why even through most of US power is made by coal we don't have nation wide air quality issues.
But hey, go right a head and whine about the environment instead of actually doing something. I'm sure that'll make it all better.
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And also hydro only provides about 6% of US power and 7% comes from all renewable technology
Hydroelectric is renewable, which is why the EIA splits renewables into "Hydroelectric" and "Other renewables."
So 13% of deployed US power is renewable sources, and growing every day, making:
due to the limitations in the technology that keep it from being an option anytime soon
just more bullshit from you. It's an option right now. The infrastructure of the country isn't going to be replaced overnight, but at 13%, that's a pretty significant step, and the growth of the deployed renewable capacity segment is just *slightly* below that of natural gas.
So basically you're stuck with either burning hydrocarbons or nuclear power. Pick wisely.
That's a no-fucking-brainer.
Hydrocarbon pow
How Long? (Score:2)
Why does the U.S. allow India and China to continue leading in deaths from air pollution? We need to bring those jobs back to the U.S. Get rid of the EPA! More air-pollution-related deaths in America now!
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Yes because it's totally logical that industry is going to completely retool their existing factories at trillions of dollars of cost to make older less efficient machines that not just pollute more but need more energy to run.
Reality isn't an episode of Captain Planet son.
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Well just so you know the problem here isn't coal, ...
Right. The problems in India are
1. Construction dust
2. Vehicular emissions,
3. burning fields after harvest.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/delhi-chokes-on-smoke-from-neighbouring-states/story-zAkXkflle5MoUXLNYfZa0H.html [hindustantimes.com]
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Which is why even through most of US power is made by coal we don't have nation wide air quality issues.
That's 2 lies on one thread. Do you have any fucking relationship with reality?
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs... [eia.gov]
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Most Indian coal plants built since the 80s have Coal Scrubbing Chimneys. This is old tech. Coal plants are not the issue.
The main problem in the cities is vehicular pollution, dust from construction and burning of wood and leaves by homeless people.
The solution to most of these problems is cheaper electricity- Metro trains, electric cars, cheaper electricity=more industry=more jobs= less homeless people, more industry=more taxes=better enforcement of construction norms.
Anything which drives up the price of
It's also why coal plants keep shutting down (Score:2)
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Try your unnecessary trolling a bit more harder. Or, you know, just have the conversation.
Ferret
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America loose 2.5 million people a year... total. (Score:2)
Here is the actual report (Score:5, Informative)
that looks about right (Score:2)
At least it isn't as bad (Score:2)
as terrorist attacks in the United States!
Future of USA to be "competitive"? (Score:1)
Plutocrat: "Ahh, I love the smell of dereg in the morning. Smells like ... profits!"
All those uber intelligent STEM field pros (Score:2)
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Welcome to India, we are your computer tech support. [robpatton.com]
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Well most of them are in the US. Outsourcing has affected Indian industrial growth in a bad way. Since IT jobs make so much most civil and mechanical engineers have moved to coding and an entire generation of progress has been lost in India. Banning the H1 would probably help India's development a lot though it would personally suck for those who have to go back.
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Well most of them are in the US. Outsourcing has affected Indian industrial growth in a bad way. Since IT jobs make so much most civil and mechanical engineers have moved to coding and an entire generation of progress has been lost in India. Banning the H1 would probably help India's development a lot though it would personally suck for those who have to go back.
Interesting idea but I don't think it holds up because H-1B is only a temporary work visa for 3 years right? You think Indians are only geniuses for that long and then when they go back they are just like "duhhhhhhhh". 3 year prime is pretty short methinks.
Overpopulation solves itself, but it's messy (Score:2)
That's what happens when people are too stupid to recognize when they should stop having children.
Whenever I see ads to "feed the poor children" I think that it would be a better idea to send books to women and condoms to men.
Mod me down if you please. Overpopulation is a very important subject, it will dictate whether our future will be shitty or extra shitty but it's somehow politically incorrect to even mention this topic.
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India has a very active population control program. Condoms, pills and abortions are provided for free by the govt. Most educated people have 1-2 kids and even the villages have stopped having large families. In fact India is not at 2.1 children/woman fecundity so essentially replacement rate though the population will keep growing through 2050 as the large mass of young people have kids but after that it will start falling. The best way to feed the children is by generating jobs for their parents rather th
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Fair points, thanks. It's really a sad truth about the NGO employees.
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Bullshit meme is bullshit.
Thanks for playing, though.
And what's worse, is that the US manufacturing output has an upward trend, minus recession dips. So you're worse than full of shit, you were never anywhere close to right.
China outgrew us, because 1357 > 318, and every marginal increase in per-capita production there accounts for a *fucking massive* increase in total output.
We didn't shift our manufacturing to them, they started industrializing.
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You're fu(king sad.
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WTH? The U.S. was adamant that China and India be included in the Kyoto protocol, and withdrew from it when they were not [wikipedia.org]. The U.S. (and Bush) caught a lot of flak from environmental groups and "green" nations for this stance. You're now trying to blame the U.S. for the opposite?
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I feel so bad. But I'll feel better after I go to Walmart.
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https://www.hawaii.edu/powerki... [hawaii.edu]
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If it wasn't for so many knuckleheads out there believing that T is the second-coming of Hit!er I would think that you were trolling.
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I'm amazed that inconvenient truth didn't get you modded into karma-hell.
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True. Of course the R's were more than happy to pick up the racism banner when the Ds were backing away from it. The truth is, if there's a moral high ground neither party holds it.
Now, for a really inconvenient truth, Hitler got some of his ideas on eugenics from the American Progressives.
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The meme that "The Democrats" were the slaveholders is getting so fucking tired. Yes- it's true. Right up until the civil rights era, when all those dixiecrats felt the Democratic party betrayed them with the passive of the Civil Rights Act, and promptly became today's Republicans.
Over time, the parties have almost completely flipped in alignment. Today's Republ
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The Democrat party is the owner of slavery, eugenics, segregation, and the KKK.
Back then the Democrats represented Southerners, rural farmers, and working class ethnics. Republicans represented blacks and the urban middle class. Today, the parties have nearly completely swapped constituencies. The only constituency that was Democrat then and is still Democrat are Jews, and they are in the process of slowly turning Republican.
Blame for the things you mention should go with the constituency rather than the label they use. Or, even better, we should judge the parties on what they sta
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The Democrat party is the owner of slavery, eugenics, segregation, and the KKK.
Technically true! But also completely disingenuous.
For any continuously evolving entity such as a nation or political party, there must reasonably be a statute of limitations on claiming either debts or credits for past actions.
The GOP of 2017 can no more claim to be the party of Lincoln than the Democrats of 2017 can claim to be the party of Jefferson, although they both do. The Democrats of today are no more responsible for FDR's interning of Japanese American citizens [wikipedia.org] during World War II than today's Rep
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There are six major religions in India: Hindu, Islam, Christian, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, and Judaism. I didn't spend a lot of time and you could arguably cherry-pick your results, but what I found was as follows:
Hindu - Abortion is disallowed per religious tenets.
Islam - Abortion is allowed for approximately the first 40 days.
Christians - Mixed; some do allow it, some don't.
Jainism - Not allowed at all to mixed, depending on your source; probably c
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No, strike that. Always fucking was. Labeling the political movement toward the combat of said phenomenon from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change" was invented by Republican Frank Luntz to give Republicans a way to refer to the "controversy" without acknowledging the painfully descriptive label.
https://www.theguardian.com/en... [theguardian.com]
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If you think it's stupid; if you think it was created by Luntz to embarrass the Global Warming then you need to start explaining to the Chicken Littles that they sound ridiculous chanting the phrase "No More Climate Change."
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Why was it so enthusiastically embraced? Because it's accurate. Which was the genius of it. It makes the problem more ambiguous by the nomenclature, and isn't an outright denial.
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CO2 levels were magnitudes higher 50 million years ago. An era dominated by mammals. Life would flourish at CO2 levels many times the level shouted by alarmists.
I personally find the chicken little aspect of some to be extremely detrimental to accomplishing rational solutions: namely cutt
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The climate has always changed.
True.... but irrelevant?
Trying to sweep a radical change under the carpet of average change is some pretty ridiculous logic. I'm certain you agree.
There weren't ice ages until the recent past (2.5MYA) and in the intervening years we've had about 24 periods of global warming and global cooling (ice ages) and numerous mini-ice ages.
I'm not sure if you're serious... You think there weren't ice ages until 2.5MYA? That's patently false....
The interstitial cycles are true... but I'm unsure how they're relevant, for the same reason stated above. No natural interstitial cycle occurs at the rate the current change is progressing at.
CO2 levels were magnitudes higher 50 million years ago.
True....
An era dominated by mammals. Life would flourish at CO2 levels many times the level shouted by alarmists.
Also true....
Not dominated by civilizations with a requ
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There weren't ice ages until the recent past (2.5MYA) and in the intervening years we've had about 24 periods of global warming and global cooling (ice ages) and numerous mini-ice ages.
I'm not sure if you're serious... You think there weren't ice ages until 2.5MYA? That's patently false....
You're correct. I was talking about the Pliocene Ice Age. There weren't ice ages for what? 250 million years (a quarter of a billion years) until recently.
... checking wikipedia
"There have been at least five major ice ages in the earth's past (the Huronian, Cryogenian, Andean-Saharan, Karoo Ice Age and the Quaternary glaciation). Outside these ages, the Earth seems to have been ice-free even in high latitudes.[31][32]"
The Karoo was from: "360 to 260 " MYA.
The chicken little aspect of glob
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We're not talking about a colorless, odorless gas that may or may not support an unproven theory.
Ferret
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So the only countries that have increase CO2 emission since the Kyoto Protocol are now choking to death on the particulate pollution they generated along with the increase CO2 emission, and that is Trump's fault! Looks to me like Natural Selection in action and they have elected to be deselected by their own actions, evolution is a cruel mistress.
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Hence the word "premature". Re-read the very first sentence.
Sure, but the amount of prematurity matters. If these were mostly sick old people that would have died soon anyway, then this isn't that big of a loss. If they were collecting publicly funded pensions, they were a net drain, and their premature death would actually be a win. A better measure would be total years of life lost.
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If they were collecting publicly funded pensions, they were a net drain, and their premature death would actually be a win.
Damn. If your entire metric for worth is $$ generated - $$ consumed, remind me never to let you near my puppy.
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Of course, we have no such goal at this time. If your goal is cultural and social continuity, killing off older people is a very bad idea.
It's also worth considering that the pollution probably doesn't leave them in perfect health until one day they die before using any medical resources.
Finally, consider how your thought changes if it's you or someone you love who dies early.
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Damn. If your entire metric for worth is $$ generated - $$ consumed, remind me never to let you near my puppy.
It may seem heartless, but if you are going to spend public funds to fix the air pollution, you should ensure that is the best use of the money. Should they put scrubbers on smokestacks, or would the money be better spent on education, better nutrition, or vaccinations? A spoiled first-worlder will of course say "do all of those things", but a poor country like India can't always afford that.
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You're still not allowed near my puppy.
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Well there is some cost to society if the elderly need more care and medical attention. The worst is if infants acquire a lifetime disability because of pollution, because society is on the hook for their care for decades.
Short term planning is bad, polluting to life up your economy won't do much good if your GDP gains have to go back into fixing all these new social problems.
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If you go to the website which publishes the data, you can find the health impact in Disability Adjusted Life Years (DALY) which is a better than death alone.
For instance, Bangladesh has 3000 DALY lost per 100,000 population due to particulates.
Very interesting to look at the data:
https://www.stateofglobalair.o... [stateofglobalair.org]
Re: So what (Score:1)