How Cities Are Using Dry Ice To Kill Rats (usatoday.com) 429
Some of the United States' biggest cities have resorted to using dry ice to kill rats. Since dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide) turns into a gas, sanitation officials simply need to drop chunks of it into rat infested burrows and let science do the rest. Longtime Slashdot reader mi writes: USA Today reports: "Earlier this week, USA TODAY observed Chicago sanitation department workers at one of the city's oldest parks scoop chunks of smoking dry ice into a burrow before quickly covering the entry and exit holes with dirt and newspaper to stop any rats from escaping as the -109.3-degree Fahrenheit gas dissipated. Sanitation workers say they treat burrows during morning hours, when rats are less active and most likely to be huddled inside the burrows. The asphyxiated dead rats then decompose in place and out-of-sight of city denizens who count the disease-carrying vermin among the vilest of indignities of urban living. 'We are seeing 60% fewer burrows in areas where we are using the dry ice,' said Charles Williams, Chicago's streets and sanitation commissioner. 'It's more environmentally friendly, and it's very humane on the rodents as well.'" Humane or not, what is so especially "undignified" about rats? What makes them worse, than, for example, cats, deer or wild horses?
Not a nice way to die (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
who fuckin cares. They're rats.
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Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
If technologically superior aliens come here wanting earth (or whatever), I don't particularly care about how humane their human-extermination methods are. I'm more concerned about if our alien-extermination methods are effective enough to stop them, and perhaps whether or not our methods of alien-extermination are MORE effective than their methods of human-extermination.
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They will be. We'll have practiced on non-lab rats.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
Any aliens capable of crossing interstellar distances are almost certainly quite capable of exterminating humanity without getting anywhere near close enough for us to strike back. Heck, just lob a few largish asteroids at our major cities and wait for a year or two for the resulting "nuclear" winter and general chaos to starve most of the population, and probably cause the near total collapse of civilization in the process. The survivors would then be in no position to fight the hordes of von-neuman kill-bots that had been replicating while they waited.
And that's assuming technology scarcely more advanced than what we already have. Given the age of the galaxy, any aliens we encounter here are as likely to be thousands or millions of years more advanced than us.
The entire "humanity overthrowing alien conquest" meme is a storyteller's fantasy with no rational basis in reality.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Funny)
Obviously, you've never used a MacBook in defense of your home planet.
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Re: Not a nice way to die (Score:3)
The last option is already succeeding very well.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:4, Interesting)
Though, I want to see the aliens with an orbital drill. Drill to the core, heat it up 10,000 degrees, watch the continents melt, while they reform the planet in our image. When the construction workers make a house, they don't exterminate the ants first. They leave that to the bulldozers.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Insightful)
We better hope we don't encounter aliens that feel the same way about us and see us as pests on "their" new planet.
What is your point? That aliens will treat us better if we are nice to rats?
Real life is not like Star Trek [dilbert.com].
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Only if the aliens are giant rats instead of giant cats.
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Why are you waiting?
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Nope, the moment you get rid of humans the tasty refuse rats thrive on in cities stops coming.
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You do realize rats thrive in the wild too, right? Only a few species have specialized to cohabit with humans.
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The first Murinae fossils are from 14 million years ago. The only dinosaurs they survived are the ones with sharp beaks and a lot of feathers.
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We better hope we don't encounter aliens that feel the same way about us and see us as pests on "their" new planet.
If they're trying to exterminate us, whether their methods are "humane" or not isn't something I'll be too concerned with. Extermination is extermination and dead is dead. As someone else pointed out, my *only* concern will be whether or not we can stop them.
If not, does it really matter whether you die in some horribly awful way or painlessly?
Re: Not a nice way to die (Score:3, Funny)
Well they tried C4 and the neighbors bitched about the noise. you just can't make anyone happy these days.
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It's Chicago. How much more damage can some C4 do?
It's like a tornado sweeping through and doing $10 million of improvements.
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Well they tried C4 and the neighbors bitched about the noise. you just can't make anyone happy these days.
OB: Caddyshack [youtu.be]
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Asphyxiation via C02 is an absolutely HORRIBLE way to die, regardless of the creature. There's a reason Carbogen (C02/Oxygen mix) is used to induce anxiety to test out anxiolytics. I mean I get that they need to solve the infestation problem but can't we choose a method that isn't also a completely inhumane method?
Not only that, but have you ever stuck your nose into a pure CO2 environment? It burns, because of the carbonic acid [ilpi.com] formed when the CO2 hits your mucus membranes. It would be a truly nasty way to die.
But, yeah, they're rats.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:4, Interesting)
The normal way is to make them eat a lot of warfarin until internal bleeding kills them.
If you want to kill stuff than is not neatly lined up in the stockyards it's generally going to be messy and horrible.
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If you want to kill stuff than is not neatly lined up in the stockyards it's generally going to be messy and horrible.
And even if it is, it doesn't exactly measure up to your appendectomy.
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After having dealt with rats in my attic, CO2 is a better alternative than the baits, which can poison other animals and make the rats bleed to death internally.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Informative)
Asphyxiation via C02 is an absolutely HORRIBLE way to die, regardless of the creature. There's a reason Carbogen (C02/Oxygen mix) is used to induce anxiety to test out anxiolytics. I mean I get that they need to solve the infestation problem but can't we choose a method that isn't also a completely inhumane method?
This is just not true. Low concentrations of CO2 can cause distress. High concentrations are fast and painless.
There have been lake and volcanic outgassing events which release massive amounts of CO2 and it kills people and animals where they stand, in seconds.
See the Lake Nyos incident to see how CO2 kills. [arizona.edu]
And here's the final report on the incident from the USGS (PDF): "In this incident, asphyxia resulted from the displacement of normal atmosphere (approximately 21 percent oxygen) by a cloud of carbon dioxide gas. Under such circumstances, victims will literally "drop in their tracks" after taking a few breaths and experience no feeling of suffocation. The actual mechanism of death is believed to be a paralysis of the respiratory centers in the brain by very high concentrations of carbon dioxide. Lethal levels of carbon dioxide are in the range of 8 to 10 percent (Sittig, 1985)." - pp. 18-19 [usgs.gov]
Also: "Additionally, many victims were found in their beds still covered by bed clothing. Victims found outside appeared to have collapsed suddenly without substantial movement. Animals were described as "dead in their tracks" in herds rather than dispersed." - page 17
An accepted humane way to kill lab animals is with high concentrations of CO2. The key is "high concentrations."
This concept, of dry ice generating carbon dioxide which flows down into holes at high concentrations, is actually brilliant and humane.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Informative)
Actually asphyxiation by breathing near pure CO2 isn't bad. It's remarkably swift.
Likely better than thallium or anticoagulants like warfarin. There isn't a perfect way to kill rats, but this seems like an improvement.
I'm not sure why they are using dry ice rather than just a tank of compressed CO2.
Likely because the dry ice is cheaper, easier, and more effective. It also requires less equipment and training.
Or pure N2 for that matter
N2 is lighter than air, and you need enough of it to completely displace the air. CO2 is dense, and even denser when it is at -109F, so it will flow into the burrows. It is toxic at about 7%.
which eliminates the stress response entirely
I doubt if most people with a rat infestation consider this to be a critical criteria.
Re: Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Informative)
CO2 is toxic?
Yes. CO2 forms carbonic acid when it is dissolved in water, and acidifies the blood to lethal levels when above about 7%. With conditioning you can tolerate slightly higher levels.
No. You're talking MONOXIDE.
CO is much more toxic than CO2, but either can kill you.
CO2 only deprives the air of usual ratio of oxygen, and is not notice in itself.
No. This is wrong. If you add 7% CO2, you still have about 18% O2, which is more than enough for a healthy person. It is the CO2 that kills you, not the absence of oxygen.
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OP wasn't suggesting not killing them, just finding a nicer effective way to do it. For example, pour liquid nitrogen down the hole instead. Similar all around except that excess N2 causes an easy death starting with a dreamlike state rather than a sensation of suffocating and burning like CO2 does.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:4, Interesting)
Honestly, dry ice is probably a LOT more humane than rat poison.
The whole reason rat poison functions is because rats don't have a gag reflex. Once they "acquire" something by eating it, the only way to get rid of it is via full digestion and pooping it out.
So they can't puke up rat poison. This gives the toxin plenty of time to kill the rat, especially with their high burning metabolism.
Dry ice evaporates into CO2 and knocks the rats out. Then, as the CO2 levels climb, kills them.
If you've ever seen the "Crazy Russian Hacker" video where he builds a work bucket-based "air conditioner" and uses dry ice instead of regular ice? DUMB.
This explains it in excruciating detail. https://youtu.be/YIgV2Q8Leh0 [youtu.be]
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Informative)
The glue boards, on the other hand, are pretty gross. The rat sticks to them and then you toss the thing into the trash, which always struck me as somewhat psycho. Sometimes people buy them without it dawning on them they're going to end up throwing a live mammal into the garbage. I knew one guy who came across a starving mouse wiggling in the glue, was overcome by an unexpected burst of empathy, and spent the next half hour making a mess outside with rubbing alcohol trying to pry it off without tearing any limbs.
Re:Not a nice way to die (Score:4, Insightful)
>They kill instantly; you'll never find a mousetrap with a live rodent wiggling around in it.
Bullshit. I've had many a mousetrap go off when I was nearby, that left the mouse screaming for several minutes before it died. Yes, my squeamishness exceeds my compassion, and I failed to finish them off more promptly by other means. Not my proudest self-realization.
Totally agree about the glue traps though, those things are just evil. If you're going to murder something, you should at least aim for doing so humanely.
Re: Not a nice way to die (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah the little shits will hit you with a frying pan first chance they get
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the ordinary mousetrap is humane, effective, reusable, and available in multiple sizes. They kill instantly; you'll never find a mousetrap with a live rodent wiggling around in it.
Not true, in my years of dealing with mice out at the cabin, I've managed to trap one mouse in two traps (it got it's rear end caught in one, and head in the other), and have found more than one trap where the mouse was maimed, but still alive (usually when they trip it with their rear ends).
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I remember taking a rat stuck to a glue trap outside and putting it in the field behind my shed. I figured something could eat it so why not. The next morning when I walked out there I saw shredded pieces of trap everywhere with cat fur stuck on it. Man, I wished I had set up a camera to video tape that. I imagine it was hysterical.
Don't read this if you're squeamish (Score:3)
I've dealt with rodents more often than I'd like. I've used quite a few different methods to catch them.
- Poisons are horrible. Plus you sometimes end up with decomposing animals in places you can't easily get to. Don't do this.
- Old-fashioned classic snap traps work, mostly. Occasionally I've had mice go for the bait at an odd angle and get pinned alive, though. And rat snap traps are just too dangerous if you have kids or pets. Also, once I had a rat set a mouse trap off. I heard this horrible squeal and
What's undignified about rats? (Score:5, Insightful)
They carry disease, eat infrastructure, chew holes in your house, shit and pee on your stuff, chew holes in your stuff, eat and contaminate your food, and many more things I can't fit into the margin of this book.
Re:What's undignified about rats? (Score:5, Funny)
They carry disease, eat infrastructure, chew holes in your house, shit and pee on your stuff, chew holes in your stuff, eat and contaminate your food, and many more things I can't fit into the margin of this book.
Yes, children are unpleasant little monsters, aren't they?
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You should see them when they grow up and start posting on the internet.
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Children? I thought they were talking about humans. Nasty disease-ridden varmits - once they've infested an area you may as well leave, they're only going to keep multiplying and contaminating the area until it's unfit for anything but rats and cockroaches.
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Useful clue for whoever wrote TFS: indignity is not the same as undignified. Yes, they both have "digni" in the middle. doesn't give them the same meaning.
Bad enough when the commenters are semiliterate, now the editors are semiliterate too?
Re:What's undignified about rats? (Score:5, Informative)
During World War 2 when the Dutch were near starvation late in the Nazi occupation, my grandmother - a young woman at the time, obviously - heard her baby sister suddenly start screaming from her crib in the next room. She rushed in to discover a rat chewing on the baby's chest.
They're nasty, disease-carrying vermin, and anyone who feels sorry for them (or, idiotically, asks how they're worse than cats, deer, or wild horses) simply hasn't had a close encounter with them. I specifically keep cats around as nature's own anti-vermin patrol. My cats are well worth their value in purchased cat food and vet visits just for that function alone, and as a bonus, every once in a while they deign to permit me to pet them for a while.
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Well, my kitteh brought a live mouse to my (mouse-free) house and set it free, without incapacitating first.
On the other hand, once he kept, over the course of two days, bringing a lot of tiny mice and one big. Family reunion in the belly of a Master Race predator :)
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Perhaps your cat wants to teach you hunting.
What makes them worse (Score:3)
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Do cats cause schizophrenia? I thought it was the other way around.
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Do cats cause schizophrenia? I thought it was the other way around.
Schizophrenia causes cats?
Who knew?
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Ahaha I missed the joke I get it now You were talking about cats being schizophrenics because they are all crazy and I was talking about crazy people that end up with 20+ cats.
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Cats are only crazy at night, they wait for us to go to sleep and then let loose.
Re:What makes them worse (Score:4, Informative)
Not directly, but they are the carrier for a very common parasite, T.gondii. It's endemic just about everywhere domestic cats can be found. It infects humans too, though it can't reproduce in them. In humans it concentrates in the brain, usually to symptoms so mild they go unnoticed - the victim just feels tired and slightly feverish for a short time - but the presence of the parasite has been linked to a number of mental health conditions.
T.gondii is notable for influencing host behavior - it causes rats to become less fearful, increasing the chance of getting caught by a cat and consumed so the parasite can continue it's life cycle in a cat. The same mechanism of altering brain chemistry that causes rats to become less fearful is also active when it infects humans, but as it evolved to mess with rat brains the effect on humans is different.
As a matter of public health, it would be wise to place restrictions on domestic cats - at the very least to deny them access to outdoors areas where they may have contact with wild animals. But cats are cute and everyone loves them, so such measures are politically non-viable.
Re: What makes them worse (Score:2)
Was the bubonic plague started by cats, deer or .. (Score:2)
Was the bubonic plague started by cats, deer or wild horses? Silly Op...
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Re:Was the bubonic plague started by cats, deer or (Score:5, Informative)
> Fleas.
No, rats. The fleas are just a vector to get it from rats to people. The fleas come with the rats.
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Moles too? (Score:2)
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When I was a kid, I used to help my grandfather try to control moles around his cattle. Cattle, horses, etc. would step into the entrance to the mole's burrow and break a leg.
Were you able to help all those moles with their tiny broken legs?
What's undignified about rats? (Score:5, Informative)
"Humane or not, what is so especially "undignified" about rats? What makes them worse, than, for example, cats, deer or wild horses?"
The author of the summary has obviously never had a rat infestation. They can swim, dig several feet down, chew through concrete, plastic, wood, drywall, and otherwise go to amazing destructive measures to get to a heat or food source. Unlike mice, keeping your food in the cupboard or Tupperware containers is useless as they chew right through them, and destroy your home's foundation while they are at it. No, rats are not at all like wild horses, cats, or deer. Rats are a special kind of hell.
If you need an ecological reason. The destructive urban rats are an invasive species, not native to North America. We brought them here - and I for one applaud every effort to get rid of them.
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urban environments are destructive...
Yes, because they tend to host rats.
Worse (Score:5, Insightful)
Cats, deer, and wild horses generally won't climb walls and crawl into your house. And they don't share rats' long history of spreading disease and eating grain from storage containers. Deer are food. Horses can be tamed and used to do valuable work. Cats can be tamed and used to protect grain from rodents.
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I'm with you on the deer and wild horses but let me introduce you to an Indonesian feral cat. My childhood nightmares were filled with these filthy creatures. They had mange, fleas and ticks. They were often deranged from rabies and would scream and fight at all hours. Oh, and they have a habit of pouncing on people. Get bitten or scratched and you had to get vaccinated for rabies. That required multiple injections in your belly. I have never understood my fellow American's tolerance for feline vermin.
On
Re:Worse (Score:5, Funny)
Good fix for a lot of things.
Roommate takes your snacks? Python in the cupboard.
Girl Scouts selling cookies door-to-door? Python on the porch.
Phone solicitors? Python on the ph...no, that did not work.
Re:Worse (Score:5, Funny)
Too many curlies in your code? Python on the computer.
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Horses are good eating too
Too bad in a lot of countries superstitious bastards banned their slaughter.
Rats are very clean animals. (Score:5, Interesting)
Rats are very clean animals.
Except, you know, for:
lymphocytic choriomeningitis ...but except for those, VERY CLEAN!
bubonic plague
typhus
hantavirus
leptospirosis
rat-bite fever (it's a real thing; look it up)
salmonellosis
Colorado tick fever
cutaneous leishmaniasis
Re:Rats are very clean animals. (Score:4, Interesting)
Rats are very clean animals. Except, you know, for: ...
They're also very friendly and cuddly. They tend to get into cribs with human infants and treat them like fellow rats: Cuddle up, clean their ears, etc.
Unfortunately, rats react to a dead rat in the burrow by eating it. Humans, when they first fall asleep, tend to be in a deep sleep for something like 25ish minutes, from which it is very hard to rouse them - even by a rat bite. 25ish minutes is long enough for rats to decide a baby or child might be dead, test it by nibbling, then start chewing...
Too bad they're not up on the current studies (Score:2)
... like how killing city rats may cause diseases to spread faster:
http://nautil.us/issue/38/nois... [nautil.us]
Now, it's possible that this technique manages to kill every rat in the colony, so they don't scatter ... but as rats that weren't in the burrow would realize that something is up when they come back, this could be a problem.
I'd think they'd want to use carbon monoxide, not dioxide, at the very least ... assuming that rats have the same problems w/ humans in detecting it.
Re:Too bad they're not up on the current studies (Score:4, Informative)
I really do not think there is a solution that involves not killing them. If you stopped killing rats for 4 months there would literally be something like a hundred times as many rats as there were before. They would explode out of the sewers and eat small children and babies in their cribs. Their ability to reproduce exponentially would mean that every edible morsel of food in the area, whether human, pet, or more generic foodstuff, would necessarily be converted into more rats within a few years time.
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And they are mean sons of bitches. The people championing them here seem to think they're like lab rats, docile. Sewer rats are anything but. They will attack human infants and adults. I've been bitten by one in my sleep and seen a rat kill a cat.
Mean sons of bitches.
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Rats are OG (Score:2)
Their ability to reproduce exponentially would mean that every edible morsel of food in the area, whether human, pet, or more generic foodstuff, would necessarily be converted into more rats within a few years time.
Rats are nature's version of Grey Goo. [wikipedia.org]
Having had an infestation of rats.... (Score:3)
Not "exactly" humane (Score:2)
Humane? (Score:2)
'We are seeing 60% fewer burrows in areas where we are using the dry ice,' said Charles Williams, Chicago's streets and sanitation commissioner. 'It's more environmentally friendly, and it's very humane on the rodents as well.'"
There is ongoing discussion over whether or not CO2 is humane for euthanizing rodents. It is not lack of oxygen that causes distress when holding your breath, but excess CO2. It is thought by some that lab and feeder rodents are put through unnecessary stress by using CO2 instead of an alternative gas/method.
Can't we just (Score:2)
nuke them from orbit or send in laser equipped alligators into the sewers?
CATS! (Score:2)
they are not vermin, they control them.
Think of the contractors (Score:2, Interesting)
Who invested in vans, trucks, equipment and had to tender, bid for rat control work.
Governments that set standards are using cheap science to alter the natural balance of capitalism.
Think of the chemical sales, support jobs, local businesses that are all working to keep trucks stocked and chemicals flowing with the long term aim to stabilise rat populations.
A large self supporting rat population can provide decades of control work, with very fe
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The government does that job because the last time we used a private contractor, he stole all the children.
"Humane"? (Score:3)
'It's more environmentally friendly, and it's very humane on the rodents as well.'"
"Very humane"? Seriously? I don't have a problem with them taking measures to kill pests but suffocation isn't exactly what I would call humane. Necessary maybe but let's not pretend that they're doing something nice or pleasant to the rats.
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Re:Very cruel (Score:5, Insightful)
No one is trying to kill your pets. Rats are filthy and violent. They destroy food, spread disease, and even hurt the animals we WANT to keep around and well cared for. Varmints are going to be killed, if you don't do that you don't even have a civilization.
You definitely speak like someone who has never had to deal with an actual infestation, or thought much about that situation much.
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I have had pet rats too, but there's a big difference between a pet rat and a wild rat. I've had wild rats in my attic. They'll chew up wires, start fires and destroy everything with urine and poop. Currently I use a trap that electrocutes them. All the insulation under a low roof in part of my house was destroyed by them and their urine got into everything.
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Wild rats are pests and a blight on much of the developing world. They breed rapidly, consume huge amounts of farm produce, and spread disease. Perhaps your pets are not rats, but Siberian hamsters.
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Or perhaps they're just tame rats. Most feral animals are dangerous, destructive, and disease-ridden in the wild, even domesticated animals and humans. Rats are a problem in large part because they are so intelligent, and fill a very similar ecological niche to humans, size notwithstanding.
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Macroscopic virus, according to Agent Smith [youtube.com].
Re:Very cruel (Score:5, Insightful)
> If there's a bug, I catch it and release it outside
What if there's fifty bugs? What if there's a hundred bugs and a dozen mice? Someone is keeping your apartment free of bullshit parasitic creatures that spread disease and filth. It's not you, apparently, but someone is doing the fucking job out of your sight.
Re:Very cruel (Score:5, Funny)
What if there's fifty bugs? What if there's a hundred bugs and a dozen mice? Someone is keeping your apartment free of bullshit parasitic creatures that spread disease and filth. It's not you, apparently, but someone is doing the fucking job out of your sight.
And, it's probably a cat. Which directly answers one of the questions posed in the summary.
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Is that because they don't have thumbs?
Re:Very cruel (Score:4, Interesting)
There are better ways. When I had some yellow jackets move in, I blasted their nesting area with cinnamon powder. Apparently, they like the smell about as much as humans like a garbage dump.
As for termites, yeah, sometimes you have to resort to poison. It's about a measured response, not no response.
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Funny thing then that it's years later and the yellow jackets never returned.
Interestingly, it seems that fear causes us to give off a scent that infuriates bees and wasps. If you are personally sensitive, it's understandable, but of not, try to overcome your fear and you'll find that they ignore you.
Re:Very cruel (Score:5, Interesting)
House centipedes. The grey-brown kind with lots of long thin legs.
They're completely harmless to humans, even kinda cute for a bug, and are voracious predators against virtually all the home-infesting insects that we dislike, including termites, cockroaches and nigh-indestructible bedbugs. They can even become kind of friendly as they mature through their seven-year lifespan, if you're into befriending your "guard dogs".
I'm not above squishing particularly annoying bugs, but fostering a population of human-benign predators is far more effective, and controls potential infestations long before you even notice you've been invaded.
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> falls back into normal air
They need a gas that sinks, though.
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If it comes from just boiled N2, it will sink.
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It's not quite that simple. What works will for pigs does not work well for all animals. I use a number of animal models, including mice and rats, in research studies. CO2 asphyxiation is the currently preferred method for mice and rats for humane euthanasia, provided the exposure concentration is kept low. Argon has been shown to induce aversion in rats (as an indicator of pain), while N2 exposure has had mixed results in varied studies. It's possible N2 is more humane, if the mix was correct, but that is
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I shot Bambi's mother.
If I had gotten an any deer tag, I would have shot Bambi and had his head mounted.
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I didn't. You don't even see the damn deer get shot. Just the kid inexplicably meeting his dad.
Seriously... some venison would be nice for tomorrow's dinner, I think.
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I assume you're grossed out by squirrels as well, right? They're basically cute, stupid rats after all.
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I'd be careful of that metric - human penises are among the smallest in the animal kingdom, relative to body size, and there's a LOT of animals as large or larger than us.
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Remember that one time when rats killed off half of Europe?
In hindsight, providing rats with guns, knives, and ammunition wasn't the brightet idea Europeans ever came up with...