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Microsoft Businesses Medicine Programming IT

Microsoft Hopes To Hire More Coders With Autism (fastcompany.com) 226

Autistic people are methodical and detail-oriented, and a new Microsoft program is trying to hire more of them, according to Fast Company. Slashdot reader tedlistens writes: Vauhini Vara takes a look at the at the (difficult) efforts of Microsoft to recruit more autistic engineers and make a more neurodiverse workplace, through the lens of one of those coders. "The program, which began in May 2015, does away with the typical interview approach, instead inviting candidates to hang out on campus for two weeks and work on projects while being observed and casually meeting managers who might be interested in hiring them. Only at the end of this stage do more formal interviews take place.

"The goal is to create a situation that is better suited to autistic people's styles of communicating and thinking. Microsoft isn't the first to attempt something like this: The German software firm SAP, among a handful of others, have similar programs -- but Microsoft is the highest-profile company to have gone public with its efforts, and autistic adults are hoping it will spark a broader movement."

One autistic coder says they make better employees because "You don't have to tell someone not to go home early. They'll just stay." But there's also a push to bring different analytical and creative approaches into Microsoft's company culture. The article ultimately asks the question, "Could the third-largest corporation in the world make the case that hiring and employing autistic people, with all their social and intellectual quirks, was good, not bad, for business?"
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Microsoft Hopes To Hire More Coders With Autism

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  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @10:39AM (#52862403)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • There is that, but I'm also concerned about the abuse up front. They want them to come and "hang out and work for 2 weeks" without being hired? Is MS paying for food and lodging at least? Is MS just taking 2 weeks of work for free? Do these people do that all of that for the "hope" of being hired in the end, which might not happen?

      I've heard of "speculative interviewing" before, but this really seems over the top to me.
      • but this really seems over the top to me.

        Seems perfectly normal to me. Lots of companies use an approach that's very similar including hiring on temporary contracts before getting a permanent one. This doesn't seem much of a stretch from that. I got my current job by working as a temp with 4 other people for 60 days with a very crappy up front interview. At the end of the 60 days I got a formal full-time offer, the other's were shown the door.

    • by jrumney ( 197329 )
      Burnout is never good for business. Henry Ford worked this out over a century ago, why do modern IT sweatshops think it doesn't apply to them?.
    • In today's American tech industry, it always boils down to "moar slave labor!!!1!!"

  • Spectrum... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10, 2016 @10:42AM (#52862419)

    I suspect that most coders fall somewhere on the spectrum anyway. Are they specifically looking for the rocking back and forth level of autism? The "awkward, can't look you in the eye, bad grooming"? Or the "I'm always right and get insanely defensive" (also includes defense extremists who have OVERLY strong political views)?

    • Re:Spectrum... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:05AM (#52862535)

      Are they specifically looking for the rocking back and forth level of autism?

      The "rocking" is often an indicator of neglect, often as a result of late diagnosis. An autistic child needs treatment, stimulation, and education. They should not be left in the corner to rock back and forth.

      The "awkward, can't look you in the eye, bad grooming"? Or the "I'm always right and get insanely defensive"s?

      Training and education can help here too. "Normals" learn social skills indirectly by observing those around them. Autistic people often need explicit rules and checklists: Greet people in the hallway. Smile and look people in the eye. No political discussions at work. Etc.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        And if you can't look people in the eye, look at the bridge of their nose. They will likely never know.

        Learned off the telly from an Asperger's kid who wrote a book on his experiences.

        Works well, to the point that it ultimately trains you to be much more comfortable looking them in the eye. At least it helped me; I'm probably a 'normal', though at times in my youth, had diagnosis been more common, some of my repetitive behaviours and lack of non-verbal communication ability might have been put down to Asper

        • That's what I do. Either look at their nose or a spot just behind their head (but close enough to their head that my eyes appear directed at them). Looking someone directly in the eyes, though, results in ever increasing anxiety until I need to look away.

    • Yes and further they are in the spectrum, the more problems they usually have with being able to communicate at sufficient level. For an inhouse western coder the ability to clearly communicate why something matters is as important as pure coding ability. You need to be in meetings with business owners, marketing, designers and deliver your expertise in way that is understandable to people with no coding experience. If it's OK that someone drops you a spec and you start hammering away, they can ship it to I
      • You seem to be saying that I, as a software guy, need to talk to business and marketing types as a routine part of my job. From my point of view, that's one of the things management is for. Granted, I could make more if I got into management (which I really really don't want to do), but I'm an important part of the company making more money than I really need anyway. I almost never get a comprehensive spec, but usually talk with the end users (like most developers, I write software that gets used inside

    • Re: Spectrum... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by undefinedreference ( 2677063 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @12:00PM (#52862777)

      That was my first thought as well. All the best developers I've ever worked with were quite socially awkward, most probably somewhere on the spectrum. The best I ever hired was absolutely awful in the interview and nobody else could see what I saw in him.

      High-functioning autistics succeeding in tech careers have resulted in what some have described as an "epidemic" of ASDs among children in Silicon Valley. One of the problems is that high-functioning autistics still seldom move up into management (even if they want to), which keeps companies from hiring lower-functioning people with strong skills.

      At the very least, it's good to see some companies looking at working on diversity on this front. Too bad it will probably take decades to catch on in smaller companies where they'd likely be far more comfortable.

    • That's because the "spectrum" has been continuously expanded in recent decades so now just about anyone with an awkward personality straight is on the "spectrum". It has even become trendy to be on the "spectrum". Probably because of stupid articles like this one that assign mystical superpowers to people on the "spectrum". The reality is that only a small percentage of people with autism would be capable of coding for Microsoft.

    • "I'm always right and get insanely defensive..."

      So Slashdot autism, then.

  • Exploited? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 10, 2016 @10:44AM (#52862439)

    One autistic coder says they make better employees because "You don't have to tell someone not to go home early. They'll just stay."

    Ah, it makes it easier to exploit employees.

    And now, businesses are going to start putting in their requirements "diagnosed autism" in their job descriptions. It's like when MS started asking those brain teasers and every business started doing it.

    I'm glad that business is starting to see non-normal behavior as being a reason for instant disqualification, but I see this going to extremes.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Exploitation, and the fact that it creates pressure on others to do likewise. Overtime should be heavily discouraged, a last resort when proper planning has failed, ideally matched by extra time off elsewhere.

      • by Z80a ( 971949 )

        Do overtime actually even work well at all? or the time you "save" with it is lost with an extended QA?

        • I understand that you probably are a programmer and you probably live in a happy, insular world where all you have to do is push some buttons on a keyboard a few times a week and and maybe get out of bed before 1PM once a month to wander into the office and roll your eyes at your manager for being a square, and out pops a paycheck for $200,000/year, so let me explain to you how overtime works.

          People who work on salary don't get overtime. They get paid a specific amount per year no matter how much work they

          • by Z80a ( 971949 )

            Actually, the job you described sounds eerily similar to game programming at a place like EA.

    • Ah, it makes it easier to exploit employees.

      Is it exploitation if the employee wants to work late? Employment gives autistic people purpose and social engagement that is often lacking in other areas of their lives. So if they choose to work late with their co-workers rather than going home to sit in an empty apartment, why is that a bad thing? That decision should be theirs, not yours.

      but I see this going to extremes.

      You shouldn't. Rates of employment among autistic people vary widely by country. Some countries do a way better job of integrating these people than others. The E

      • Read "A Deepness In The Sky", by Vernor Vinge (the prequel to A Fire Upon The Deep, but a completely unrelated story with the same main char.)

        Among a dozen interesting ideas he explores is abusing people by inducing a hyper-autistic fixation on whatever you happen to be good at. The ruling class thus has excellent technicians, engineers, and fantastic artworks. The autists are happy because they get to pursue their interest with a single-minded fixation, never bathing and often forgetting to eat.

        They are

        • Read "A Deepness In The Sky", by Vernor Vinge

          No thanks. I, like many autistic people, have no interest in reading fiction. And I think it is silly to cite a work of fiction in a discussion about reality. For a better insight into the world of Auties, try reading Thinking in Pictures [amazon.com], written by an autistic woman diagnosed as retarded, who went on to earn a PhD in engineering.

          Your description of autistic people as helpless children, incapable of making their own life decisions, is paternalistic crap.

          • Sorry Bill, but it appears you did not understand Impy's post. There was no description or comment on actually autistic people there, just a concern of analogous exploitation. The people he described were drugged.

        • Came here wondering if anyone would reference the Emergents' Focused. Was not disappointed.

          Crankyspice, Programmer at Arms

      • by jrumney ( 197329 )
        Do they really choose, or are they unable to read the social ques of when it would be acceptable to leave, so they just sit at their desk and keep working until everyone else has left?
    • And now, businesses are going to start putting in their requirements "diagnosed autism" in their job descriptions

      And this will be just perfect for the doctors who are no longer doing "420 evaluations" when pot is legal. All they need to do is work on getting "1420" to become slang for autism, and it'll be easy to re-do the signage.

  • by zenlessyank ( 748553 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @10:45AM (#52862441)

    You have to be autistic to like Windows 10. Mystery Explained.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      You have to be autistic to like Windows 10. Mystery Explained.

      More like retarded.

    • Excuse me, I'm on the spectrum and I hate Windows 10. It makes me nostalgic for Vista.

  • Considering the state of their GUIs, particularly Ribbon and Tiles, I assume that they could hire trisomy-21 cases as coders and it would still be an improvement.

  • One autistic coder says they make better employees because "You don't have to tell someone not to go home early. They'll just stay."

    And they often think very literally. For example, many will think "sweatshop" is a place where sweat is made, not an IT office.

    (Also, can't wait for someone to sue MS for not getting hired because they weren't autistic.)

    • by IMightB ( 533307 )

      No kidding, we have a guy whos on the hogher functioning autism spectrum at the office right now, he's talented, but picks up on no social cues. He will literally have a conversation with the back of your head for 10 minutes, not picking up on the fact that it's not a good time come back later. I can see this being abused easily. Boss's will think "Hey they'll work 20 hours a day if we stimulate them just so". Day in, Day out, no overtime.

      • As someone who has high functioning Autism, let me just say that social cues are hard for us. People on the autism spectrum do very well in absolutes. Black and white. Social rules aren't black and white. They're a confusing mass of grey. The same action that is perfectly valid in one situation is horribly wrong in another, very similar situation. Over the years, I've gotten good at faking neurotypical (not on the autism spectrum), but it can be tiring and I can miss cues. Think of it as if everyone runs So

  • Good (Score:5, Insightful)

    by penguinoid ( 724646 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:10AM (#52862553) Homepage Journal

    A flawed hiring strategy was passing over better candidates in favor of people with more social skills, because bigoted and incompetent hiring managers were failing at their jobs by favoring people they like over better-qualified candidates. "Being liked by the sort of people put in charge of hiring" shouldn't be a job qualification.

    (although I'm rather suspicious of this "hang out on campus for two weeks and work on projects" approach, at least if it is not paid)

    • by Kobun ( 668169 )
      Thank you for putting this so well. I will refer to you if my post up the page requires me to clarify why I'm in support of this.
    • A flawed hiring strategy was passing over better candidates in favor of people with more social skills

      Indeed. Having a group of people hammer a candidate with questions while they write solutions on a whiteboard is a terrible way to do interviews, and does not reflect the actual working environment. I prefer to keep interviews low stress, and if a candidate seems nervous, I offer to leave the room and give them 30 minutes or so to work on a problem in peace and quiet. I have hired several extremely introverted people that way, who have turned out to be great employees.

    • by dbIII ( 701233 )

      "Being liked by the sort of people put in charge of hiring" shouldn't be a job qualification.

      Mod this up to 11. I'm sick of the HR types who stalk everyone on Facebook instead of working coming up with lists of nice people who are not qualified for a job, then finding out that there were actually a large number of qualified applicants who didn't like the same sports as the HR people or something.

      • If you're having to hire people through HR, here's a tip: check their filters. At one point I was doing technical interviews with job candidates who passed whatever filter HR applied, and I got access to the "reject bin" as well. In some cases I queried HR about those rejects, e.g. I saw a pretty good match who got rejected because he had no certificate for Agile (as a team member, not a scrum master or anything like that). Checking HR filters also means being very careful when specifying must-haves or n
      • I have a suspicion the main role of the social media screen is to eliminate people who might reflect badly on the company image or get caught up in scandals. If the employee appears to have very strong religious views, or uncomfortably fixated on some cartoon fandom, or posts about their discovery that the chemtrails are made of vaccines, then they can be passed over in favor of a nice, safe, boring candidate.

    • better candidates

      Better in what regard? Better is a big spectrum. Often the ability to have social skills is an indicator of what would make someone "better" for a position. We see this in engineering quite a lot. In my line of work problems are rarely if ever solved by yourself and often take a multi-discipline approach. I knew someone at university who was better academically than me in every way. She could solve all problems by her self and could engineer the shit out of anything. She would not be suited in my workplace

    • Passing over better candidates in favor of people with autism is just as flawed. I applaud the general idea behind this, i.e. "Maybe we should look more carefully at different qualities that make people successful in different jobs. And perhaps that requires a different hiring strategy and management approach". But I can easily see this being carried out in the sloppy, lazy, half arsed manner that is so typical for HR. "Autists make good coders (according to Gartner or whatever), let's hire some of them
  • Who would want to code while they could be out socializing?

    Aspie people made this Valley.

    • Who would want to code while they could be out socializing?

      Aspie people made this Valley.

      Redmond is a valley? It seems to be missing a side.

      • Redmond is a valley? It seems to be missing a side.

        OP probably meant Silicon Valley. Without Intel to provide processors, Microsoft would be missing a side.

  • by ErichTheRed ( 39327 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:20AM (#52862603)

    For whatever reasons they're doing this, it seems like a good idea. I'm in the systems integration world, so I don't write software per se. However, I do a lot of "glue scripting" and automation work, and work with lots of developers getting their creations to function in the real world. Our chosen field of work is _definitely_ suited for autism spectrum folks...doing it right requires intense focus and literal thinking. For Microsoft, it seems like they would win on a couple fronts...they get kudos for hiring the disabled [1] and they get a workforce who is happy to work untold hours that "normals" wouldn't be able to.

    It does sound like a plan hatched by some evil HR VP though. A bunch of normal execs tour the back buildings at Microsoft, see the more autistic of the bunch basically living in their offices, and conclude that hiring more of these will keep productivity high. It could definitely devolve into a sweatshop quickly. I wouldn't classify myself as ASD, but I'm definitely introverted. i can deal with normal people, but don't like to, as in it doesn't give me pleasure but I'll avoid it if given the choice. Fortunately I've found workplaces that let me have a healthy mix of socialization and independent work. I wouldn't thrive in a startup "brogrammer" environment as an example. If Microsoft encourages an adaptive workplace, that's a good thing in my mind. All companies need a healthy mix of cocaine-fueled salesmen and caffeine-fueled worker bees. Giving those worker bees what they need to be productive (offices, privacy, etc) is key.

    [1] Yes, I'm aware that ASD being classified as a disability is very controversial. But as the number of technical jobs dry up in the First World, I can see it becoming a fully protected disability. When the entire employed world is extroverted project managers and executives, us introverts are going to be in for a world of pain.

    • by dbIII ( 701233 )
      Wind back a couple of decades and these people would not be classified as Autistic. It's seen as a disability for historical reasons from when high functioning people were not on the list
      • It's more of a mixed bag. It grants greater-than-average ability in some areas, but crippling impairment in others.

  • by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt AT nerdflat DOT com> on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:21AM (#52862613) Journal
    Favoring a particular demographic because they have a particular disability is still discrimination. If it's against the law to discriminate against someone because of a disability, it should not matter whether they actually have that disability or not.... one should not be using said disability as a basis for discrimination, period.
    • by raftpeople ( 844215 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:56AM (#52862767)
      The worst is the NBA, they target all of those tall people. Discrimination at it's worst.
    • There is an exception to most non-discrimination laws though: If the disability impairs someone's ability to do the job. It's allowable to refuse to hire a blind person to handle quality inspection at a print shop.

      This is a rare case of the opposite: A situation where the disability is an advantage. The only other one I can think of in recent history was a company mentioned on slashdot years ago using sociopaths to process abusive content reports, as they could spend months looking at pictures of abuse and

      • by mark-t ( 151149 )
        Obviously, but the basis for disqualification is (our should be) actually only based on their ability to do the job, and it may only happen to be the case that a disability impacts ability to perform the tasks that the job requires. Autism may or may not make a person a better software engineer (I suspect it does, but I won't try to make an argument here for it), but even if it did, using that disability as a basis for discrimination to prefer those people in such positions rather than only on their actua
    • Exactly what do you mean by "disability"? There are things I can't do, sure, and the same applies to you. I can focus on things very well (a little too well sometimes; I had to learn to compensate with that). The things I have a lot of trouble with aren't that important in my job, since I've learned (not as easily as some) how to get along with people and communicate with them.

      If you gave me a magic wand that I could wave to cure my depression, I'd wave it without a second thought. Give me one to mak

  • by freeze128 ( 544774 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:25AM (#52862629)
    It's fine that Microsoft wants to start hiring more autistic programmers.... Just as long as they hire them from INSIDE the U.S.
    • It's fine that Microsoft wants to start hiring more autistic programmers.... Just as long as they hire them from INSIDE the U.S.

      55% of Microsoft's sales are international. Global companies grow globally. Get over it.

      • by Calydor ( 739835 )

        So they're hiring autists, who generally have trouble communicating with other people, to do sales?

        How much of Microsoft's programming is done internationally, and how much in the US where they have their headquarters?

  • by Stormwatch ( 703920 ) <(rodrigogirao) (at) (hotmail.com)> on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:27AM (#52862637) Homepage

    Judging by Windows 10, it seems the idea of hiring coders with Down syndrome didn't work too well.

  • by __aaclcg7560 ( 824291 ) on Saturday September 10, 2016 @11:45AM (#52862709)

    As someone who looked liked the poster child for mongolism (large head and slow learner), misdiagnosed as mentally retarded due to an undiagnosed hearing lost in kindergarten, and spent eight years in Special Ed classes, I can tell you exactly what quality Microsoft is looking for. It's the same quality that my Special Ed teachers prized the most when I was in class: a well-behaved idiot.

  • I would love to "try out" new employers for a couple of weeks before committing, without having to through a more formal temp-to-hire or contract-to-hire arrangement.

    Granted, this probably won't work for most people who already have jobs, but it would be very good for new-college hires, independent contractors looking to get back into W2 work, and people who are unemployed or who have been told they will be laid off and whose employers are willing to let them take vacation or go on unpaid leave. It might w

  • as a novel, as a poem, song, etc. As soon as Bill Gates stopped working on Windows, it became what it is now.

    My Ethernet card stops working periodically as soon as I installed Windows 10. And I cannot find a solution, no matter what I try. Such things would have never happened when he worked there. Bill Gates would have thrown papers in the developer responsible for this bug.

    I will have to install Ubuntu with a dual boot, as I still sometimes need Windows for some applications.
    • You think that's bad?

      Windows 10 cannot do link teaming. No LDAP. Even if you have drivers that support it. It's a limitation built into the kernel.

      Windows Server 2012 has no problem, even though it's almost exactly the same kernel. The limitation is artificial: A little thing that Microsoft threw in to discourage people from using a Windows 10 computer as a server, and so avoiding the need to purchase the more expensive Windows Server licence.

    • My wife's computer has started requesting to reboot to finish installing an update. But once you reboot, it claims it still needs to reboot to finish installing the update.

      I've tried many different things to fix this, but now think her computer might have tried upgrading to Windows 10 (without us giving the Ok) and gotten stuck somewhere along the line. To make things more annoying, it'll often prompt her to remind her to reboot (like that will solve it), give her the option of postponing up to 4 hours, and

  • I did not realize that Pervasive Developmental Disorder had been added to the spectrum (2012) until last summer, but it explains a lot. While I was in the civilian business sector and self-employed I called myself a solutions developer. I could go into any technical situation (software, hardware, network) that I had never encountered before, and figure out a solution and correct the problem often in under an hour. These were problems that their internal IT hadn't been able to fix sometimes for weeks befo
  • "Autistic people are methodical and detail-oriented"

    Whoever wrote that clearly never met my eleven old, slightly autistic boy.

    I think SAP, who has been hiring autistic employees for a while, has a better handle on it. To quote on of their HR people:

    "If you met one autistic person, you know just one ."

    • I think the difference is that the autistic person who has become successful in overcoming his failings has tended to be methodical and observant. It isn't a guarantee, and it takes us often into 20s or far more to reach that point. It is the most common means to success for a person who is not neuro-typical to develop that way, not a natural trait.
  • What they should do is make a management hierarchy with people increasingly higher up on the spectrum so that they can translate language and cognitive styles kinda like in this Hot Fuzz scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cun-LZvOTdw

    • That's not a terrible idea really. My thoughts are not in English (or a "verbal" language at all), but I have a complicated system of echolalia scripting to where I come off as really well spoken. I don't know any other autistic people besides my daughter, but I could probably relate well to someone lower on the spectrum, with say, Asperger's, then them down to someone a little lower, etc.
  • Yeah, let me walk around for two weeks, before you tell me if you want to hire me. I have nothing better to do in the meantime.

The opossum is a very sophisticated animal. It doesn't even get up until 5 or 6 PM.

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