Thirty Meter Telescope Likely Never Gets Built ... In Hawaii
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An anonymous reader writes: After years of its backers of doing everything the state of Hawaii demanded in order to get permission to build the Thirty Meter Telescope, a state judge today ordered that the whole process should start over again. Since this order was instigated by the protesters, and that it appears the government favors those protesters, it appears that there is no chance TMT will ever get approval to build in Hawaii. We've been following the back and forth, back and forth story of this telescope for a while.
And for what? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:And for what? (Score:5, Informative)
> "The planned construction site is on land considered sacred by some Native Hawaiians."
What the *modern* natives fail to mention is that the *pre-western* natives used the top of the mountain as a rock quarry. It wasn't sacred at all. Turns out that lava erupted during an ice age, when there were glaciers on top, hardened rapidly, preventing crystal growth. Crystals fracture more easily, so the lack made for excellent stone tools, which the natives used before westerners brought metal tools.
The top of the mountain wasn't habitable for the same reason it makes an excellent telescope site - very little rain. The altitude also means it's cold, and it is high enough to induce altitude sickness if you are acclimated to sea level. So the natives didn't live up there, but rather set up mining camps to extract the rock, then took them back down. There is literally tons of archaeological evidence all over the Mauna Kea Science Reserve, the area on top of the mountain that the University of Hawaii controls. The astronomers are careful about not putting a telescope in archeology areas. There's rock debris, partial tools, shelters, etc. up there.
If it was originally an industrial site, I see no reason not to use it now for a scientific site. It's not like they are knocking down the Parthenon to build a telescope.
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If you are reaching for the stars, then god dam it reach for the stars, build the fucker on the moon and build the base around it to support it. Stop with these stupid half arsed set ups pretending you are doing something. I want a big arsed telescope on there on the moon where it belongs. Want more build some out in the asteroid belt as well, time to stop dicking about with token efforts at space exploration, time to get serious. Whose is the cheap luddite who is afraid to leave the surface of the earth a
Re:And for what? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Kingdom" - Oh, you mean that brief moment when one tribe subjugated all the other tribes on the islands. The island was of extreme tactical and logistical importance to many factions. It was either going to become a part of the US, the UK, or Japan. Frankly, they got the best of the alternatives to self-rule.
Yes, how terrible of the white man to move in and stake a claim -- as opposed to the "Kingdom" which slaughtered various tribes to make it "theirs."
It's stupid to claim the mountain as "theirs" simply because their ancestors owned it. I may as well go back to Ireland and claim an area where my former clan ruled if that were the deciding factor in who gets to control land today. "But it's mine! My ancestors lived here and ruled this area! Let me determine what gets built in Ireland!" Lots of Irish here in the USA. I bet Ireland doesn't give a crap what we want for our homeland we were forced to leave due to famine or oppression.... or our ancestors, rather.
Shut up. Move on. Every Hawaiian today is a citizen of the USA & most of the natives of native ancestry don't even recognize the group blocking the observatory as their leaders. Have you even ever been to Hawaii?!?!? B/c I have! My family visits often, and some family are looking into moving there permanently. Most natives are chill & don't give a damn about the "holy mountain." This is a bunch of self-absorbed, self-aggrandized rebels that want to secede from Hawaii and just love stirring up trouble wherever they can so they get headlines -- b/c they crave attention to their dying special interest group.
Why does the summary state (Score:5, Interesting)
... that it likely never gets built, when the article says that officials have said that they'll continue the process? You're basically just changing actual reporting into an opinion piece, and presenting said opinion as if it's in the reporting.
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You're new here, right? Two clear tip-offs
1) you RTFA
2) are surprised that the summary misrepresents the article in order to make a different point
Please note this for future reference
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... that it likely never gets built, when the article says that officials have said that they'll continue the process? You're basically just changing actual reporting into an opinion piece, and presenting said opinion as if it's in the reporting.
The anonymous submitter was likely one of the current presidential candidates.
Re: Why does the summary state (Score:5, Funny)
Unless there's such a thing as Formicologists, Entomologists is the word you're looking for.
Though why they'd be bothered with telescopes is a bit of a puzzle. Perhaps they're worried that they could be used to fry their subjects.
It's Sacred. (Score:5, Insightful)
You didn't learn the lesson of the movie Avatar (Score:3, Interesting)
The lesson was this:
Sure we're all supposed to share resources and we all support Bernie Sanders taking from people and giving to others. But if there's a native group involved, then they have an absolute right to completely control any resource, for any reason. Even if the resource is infinitely valuable, and not sharing it will result in poverty and starvation for billions of people. The natives can't even be asked to talk about sharing it; their rights are supreme because they have the righteous skin
Re:You didn't learn the lesson of the movie Avatar (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh please. It's the left that wants to build the telescope. When was the last time you heard about right-wingers giving a shit about astronomy or basic science unless there's profit involved? There's no profit in astronomy.
As someone above stated, this is a fight between the pro-science left and the SJW wacky-left. And unfortunately it looks like the wacky-left is winning.
This is why we can't have nice things (Score:3)
A tiny pressure group can stop virtually any big project, by filing court action after court action, delaying it until everyone gets tired of it and gives up. If they hadn't succeeded this time, they would have found some endangered flea, argued indefinitely until they won or lost, and lose, try again with a newly-invented religious icon.
It happens time and again. For example, the NFL (with regard to the Washington Redskins) is on record for saying "if one person objects, we will take action". Whether you think the word is offensive is beside the point. This sort of thinking allows the loudest complainers to exert veto power over virtually anything. So we get absolutely nowhere.
Re:This is why we can't have nice things (Score:5, Interesting)
"A tiny pressure group can stop virtually any big project, by filing court action after court action,"
The real opposition to TMT came from the Deep Greens, who tried the same tactic in the Nineties to stop telescope construction in Arizona. Republicans (astronomy is a major "industry" in AZ) beat them back by the skin of their teeth, but the Green victory in Hawaii means that the US is through as a location for any major project of this kind, barring some major political reformation.
It's an election year, so write your candidate. It can't hurt.
eminent domain for nice [public] things (Score:2)
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Actually his controversy is about using eminent domain for private development, which is not at issue here. The TMT site was on a 52-acre 'telescope reservation' that has existed by contract since 1960, and where a number of other instruments are already located.
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Eminent domain isn't relevant in this case. The land already belongs to the State of Hawaii, under their Department of Land and Natural Resources. Basically the entire upper half of the Big Island by altitude is a nature reserve. The very top of Mauna Kea is a science reserve managed by the University of Hawaii (another state institution). It includes archaeological sites where natives used it as a *rock quarry* for stone tools, and the area where the telescopes are set up.
Nobody has ever lived up there
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I posted the Deep Green manifesto above.
Re: This is why we can't have nice things (Score:2)
That's why private property is a good idea. If the natives owned the property (the last monarch's corruption makes it worth a separate argument) , they'd probably want the rent. Or at least the builders would have known ahead of time that building the telescope was not worth their time. If the scientists owned the property then it would have just been built already. The idea of "public property" is what leads to these sorts of conflicts; low - IQ politicians are a far worse way to decide issues then ration
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"That's why private property is a good idea. If the natives owned the property (the last monarch's corruption makes it worth a separate argument) , they'd probably want the rent."
That would be true if the real opposition were just the natives, but the Greens will stall projects on private land just as surely as on public land. In a case like this, they are just using the natives as a weapon.
How long has it been since we could build a nuclear plant, even on land the utility owns outright?
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You still need planning permission to build on private property.
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In a city, sure. Rural land, not so much. Though it's changing as counties belly up to the bar.
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rationally-enforced market discipline.
Oh, that's funny. *sorry* On what planet are you going to find that?! The market is everything but rational, and is why economic 'science' is no better than phrenology.
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If they were called the Washington Negro's would we be having this discussion? No, they would've been pressured into changing their name decades ago. The point being that the "redskin's" are a marginalized group that nobody seems to give a fuck about it which is the issue.
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That'
Re:This is why we can't have nice things (Score:5, Interesting)
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Which part of The only time it's worth for businesses to actually fight for such a project is if it's really big and if it has massive support from politicians. did you not understand?
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> Or do you just not care, you have a highway to pave, and to hell with anybody who gets in your way?
All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local galactic planning department for years.
Victory (Score:5, Insightful)
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Another victory of religion and superstition
Hawaiians spontaneously gave up their religion in 1819, before the arrival of western missionaries. It seems a lot of them really didn't like the kapu system.
There are still superstitions in Hawaii but mainly revolving around ghosts.
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It's not really accurate to call kapu a religion
It was more than just giving up Kapu. They destroyed the temples, the wooden statues, and abandoned the gods. What exactly would you call that?
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They were really only paying lip service to those gods. Imagine if the US president ordered everyone to stop believing in Jesus. And then imagine that they did!
So the Hawaiians were clearly never as religious white people. They had some weird hangups though - women couldn't eat bananas? That's weird.
If you want to see some real religious and superstitious primitives, turn on the GOP debate some time.
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"Getting the shaft"? The per capita GDP of Hawaii is slightly above US average at almost $50000. That's ten times that of other Pacific Islanders. In addition, Hawaiians have free access to labor markets across the US, receive US passports, and receive a massive net influx of federal money. Hawaiians should th
The score at half time. (Score:5, Insightful)
Science: 0
superstition: 1
greed: 4.
Sounds familar (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds a lot like what happened to the company that tried to run ferry service between the islands, the government supported the company and helped them start up, 2 years (and several lawsuits) later a judge shut them down because whatever law was passed by the government was against Hawaii's constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
In December 2008, environmental groups and the company returned to court for an appeal of the previous ruling. On March 16, 2009 the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that allowing the Superferry to operate prior to completion of the environmental study was unconstitutional.[37] The company immediately suspended service and laid off its 236 employees.
Hundreds of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars of investment lost.... and probably hundreds of millions of future investments lost because investors won't invest in infrastructure when they have no assurance that when the government says "we need this, do it", that they really mean it.
I actually had tickets to ride the boat, but the company had already shut down before my trip.
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I seriously that Hawaii would be able to find any investors. Even if the State Legislature approves, the Native Hawaiians will hit it with yet more lawsuits, and the courts will shut it down. After the TMT fiasco, potential investors will decide that it isn't worth the risk.
Anyway Hawaii already has tradition Native Hawaiian inter-island ferry services . . . they are called outrigger canoes. That would give the Native Hawaiian groups enough ammunition to claim that the new services were trying to use mo
The difference between abstraction and reality (Score:3)
But when you naively put theory into practice, you start to get some less-than-happy outcomes and get mugged by reality and start to get a visceral understanding of some facts, like
1. Turns out that the marginalized peoples are marginalized not because they're innocent noble pacifists more in tune with nature, but because they're superstitious anti-science savages who worship sacred rocks and can't be reasoned with.
2. The Man actually has a millenia-long tradition of scientific inquiry and exploration, which is how you get to have a roof over your head, food on the table, indoor plumbing, electric lights, and a lifespan longer than 30.
3. Fighting for Justice (TM) is all well and good. But when we're sitting pretty in the civilized world, there really isn't much real injustice to fight against. So like a child raised in a sterile environment only to develop allergies to everything, a society taught to attack "injustice" will turn its energies against itself, and superstition and paganism can trump science.
4. Freedom of religion is all well and good, but we in the west tend to have more personal and private religions, where my faith doesn't place any demands on your lifestyle. The savages, on the other hand, tend to have communal 'religions' with sacrifices to pagan idols in the extreme case, and elaborate restrictions on the freedom of their inherents in the most charitable interpretation. One is compatible with capital-f Freedom, one is not. Our culture is about freedom, theirs isn't. You can't compromise between the two.
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where my faith doesn't place any demands on your lifestyle.
Yeah, right. Try telling that to Evangelicals. Go back hundreds of years and try telling that to the inquisitor. You are never going to win an argument with "My religion is good and benign. Yours is evil and superstitious." They're all nuts. As long as they keep to themselves, mutter strange words and wear funny hats, we'll let it slide.
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Re:The difference between abstraction and reality (Score:4, Interesting)
That's my point. Ours tend to be the types that can keep to themselves. Theirs are the kind that can't.
What? No. There is no kind of religious type that can keep to itself once it gets the power to start forcing other people to live like them. There are some kinds of religious, though, whose beliefs inherently prevent them from amassing such power. You're not going to see the Amish forcing anyone to live like them any time soon because their religion forbids them taking up arms. They don't have the means, and their lifestyle forbids them acquiring them, so it's not going to happen.
The only thing that stops any particular Christian sect from going bad (they all have the same book more or less, so they all can justify any kind of bad behavior if they cross their eyes just right when they read it) is other competing sects, and the fact that their numbers are all dwindling. The only religion growing right now is Islam, and IMO that's only because they have a large captive audience to which they can sell their story. Depressed people are easy targets for religion. Bring up quality of life in the places they're making inroads and you'll see them falter rapidly. Nobody happy needs religion.
This was actually the result of a proxy fight. (Score:5, Interesting)
This was actually the result of a proxy fight.
It was a proxy for the ke ea Hawai‘i movement, which is a movement that is demanding some form of sovereignty for Hawaii. they have been around forever, and they make themselves a pain in the ass wherever they can in order to attempt to draw media attention to their cause.
Their favorite hobby horses are self-determination and self-governance, for Hawaii as an independent nation, or for people of native Hawaiian ancestry to obtain "tribal sovereignty" similar to the relationship with Native Americans, for Native Hawaiians.
They generally don't care about "sacred spots" unless caring about them publicly will get major headlines.
Alphabetically, the organizations involved include: ALOHA, Hawaiian Kingdom, Hawaiian Kingdom Government, Ka Lhui, Ka Pkaukau, Mauna Kea Anaina Hou, Nation of Hawai'i, Nou Ke Akua Ke Aupuni O Hawaii, Poka Laenui, and Protect Kahoolawe Ohana (PKO).
Frankly, I'm surprised there is not a "Bring Queen Lili'uokalani Back From The Dead Society". They are unhappy with the 1893 U.S. Marine invasion that got rid of the hereditary monarchy, and they are unhappy with the U.S. annexation of 1898.
Re:This was actually the result of a proxy fight. (Score:5, Interesting)
Their favorite hobby horses are self-determination and self-governance, for Hawaii as an independent nation, or for people of native Hawaiian ancestry to obtain "tribal sovereignty" similar to the relationship with Native Americans, for Native Hawaiians.
Well, there's the solution right there . . . give the Native Hawaiians the right to build gambling casinos, in exchange for the right to build a telescope.
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Native Hawaiians
None left. The Polynesians wiped them out hundreds of years ago.
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Ate them, actually.
Proxy fight: Parent Is Correct (Score:2)
13 year Hawaii resident, lacking mod points, so chiming in to say that tlambert hit the nail on the head. The sovereignty and similar aligned organizations have little political power, other than what they can exercise in the state courts.
I used to argue with sovereignty advocates (via Maui News letters to editor) that if they wanted to make some real headway, they should consider forming a party and contesting elective office like the various Puerto Rican independentistas, rather than expending all of thei
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Oh, so they want to build tax free casinos on their tribal land. Now it all makes sense.
More like Texas secessionists.
Easter Island Anyone? (Score:2)
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Easter Island gets 1,147 mm of rain a year, Mauna Kea Observatory gets 187. It's a better site for lots of other reasons (altitude, stability of the air, etc.)
Sad posters ... (Score:2)
Sad but not unexpected to see posters slathering on ad hominem attacks rather than addressing the issues. The subtext of most of the messages here today is unmistakable: the nerve of these savages.
I majored in science at university. I read most of the technical books I was supposed to read. I quit religion as soon as I could get away from it. I can clearly see the progress for humanity fostered by reason, empiricism, and applied technology. But.
When I look at what has been done to this world in the previous
Your conclusion is wrong. (Score:4, Informative)
Astronomer here, I live and work on the Big Island. You are completely wrong to assume this means the end of TMT in Hawaii, it was pretty much what was expected to happen after the state supreme court vacated the permit last December [slashdot.org]. While the new permitting process is going to take more time (months or years, nobody knows for sure), TMT seem to be taking their time deciding on their next step [hawaiinewsnow.com] and are still hoping to continue as planned. I have heard nothing that would suggest otherwise. Please understand a big project like that doesn't just up and leave after having so much invested. Supporters of the TMT here (of which there are plenty) are still hoping a new, watertight permit will come out of all this. Frankly, we're more shocked by the recent news about another batch of anti-TMT protesters being acquitted [hawaiitribune-herald.com] because they claimed to have "prevented a greater harm from occurring". But then again, this is Hawaii, and that's how things work here.
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Yeah, it seems pretty obvious to me as an American from a different State that this just means some judge doesn't like the telescope. Judges are not generally considered representative of the rest of government. ;)
Actually that idea is what we call "batshit crazy."
TPP to the rescue (Score:2)
Re:Unhelpful Whining (Score:5, Insightful)
"Historically marginalized people are now getting their legitimate say in the process" translates to "they want to be paid a bribe, at which point the construction will stop being blasphemous". It's a shakedown.
We have no business as a society stopping building on the basis of blasphemy anyway.
Re:Unhelpful Whining (Score:4, Informative)
> We have no business as a society stopping building on the basis of blasphemy anyway.
Except the top of Mauna Kea was never a holy site. It was a rock quarry, there is evidence all over the top of the mountain. Before Westerners brought metal tools, the natives used stone ones, and the lava that erupted up there during an ice age cooled quickly, making it chip-resistant. So they set up mining camps and dug up the mountain top. They didn't live up there, not enough rainfall to grow things. That's also the reason it is a good telescope site. So the natives commuted from lower altitudes, dug up stone tools, and went back down. Not exactly a religious pilgrimage.
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"Eppur si muove": now a microaggression.
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Said the person who lives in neither a totalitarian nor a leftist state. And has experience of neither of them.
And would like to keep it that way. But that requires more people to start saying no to totalitarian-minded leftists.
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It's leftist science types versus leftist racial justice warriors in a dispute mediated by a leftist government in Hawaii. Whichever side loses might want to rethink their allegiance and start supporting laws and due process and legal procedure rather than arrogantly stomping on people in the usual leftist way.
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No, you need to grow up. If this was a fight over some land with significance to Christians you'd like be all "fuck them."
Those of us with a fairer eye on the question of religion don't play the denomination game. Fuck these savages. Stop your PC bullshit and grow a set. The idea that people identify themselves with something that they had no hand in from their ancestors is simply bullshit.
Re:Unhelpful Whining (Score:5, Interesting)
> Fuck these savages.
I don't see why /. is losing their minds over this. It's just a straight up NIMBY issue. The people who live there don't want it, and obviously nobody has successfully explained why they should care. I don't even know if anybody has even tried. I certainly haven't seen an explanation here about why the TMT is so important, and why we must have it so bad that we should override the wishes of the local residents.
I don't know why everybody here needs to play up the pacific islander aspect, poking fun at their hokey religion and ancient weapons.
Re:Unhelpful Whining (Score:5, Interesting)
I've never seen it explained how a telescope (of which several are already up there) could possibly be a "NIMBY" issue, considering that it has exactly zero possible negative consequences for the locals. It's jot nuclear waste, it's not noisy - shit, it doesn't even block anyone's view. To say nothing of their "hokey religions and ancient weapons" being exactly what they, themselves cite in opposition: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
Since you were fortunate enough to be under a rock for the last few decades, you've missed the rapid proliferation of "identity politics." The basic idea is to assert that you are a member of a sexual, social, religious or ethnic minority, so that you may characterize any criticism directed at you as inherently bigoted, racist, et cetera. It is a variant of "moral fiat high ground" argument style - the idea being to avoid debates one cannot win by making it impossible for anyone to speak against you.
You have probably seen articles/comments on /. about "gamergate;" this was simply a lot of 20-somethings with no prior interest in politics getting a crash-course in identity politics when they found a "game dev" trying to hype a very poor game on its merits as femenist-affiming art, or something. These same 20-somethings were also astounded to discover that journalists are neither honest nor principled (fancy that,) and they all got very excited. That entire fracas is a case study in how widespread exploiting identity politics has become - and how commercialized. You can reasonably expect to drum up undeserved hype (and sales) for a poor product if you cast it as pro-whatever; by writers seeking to establish their moral righteousness, or just seeking to head off accusations of bigotry or intolerance (i.e. character assasination.)
In this case, identity politics is stopping Science, which /. is fond of. Therefore many cnsider it a big deal. You may disagree with the above assesments (and you'd be a fool not to do your own research on all this and just trust my word, anyway,) but it is a description of the issue as I (and many others) percieve it.
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It's all playing to hurt an indignation of white poor uneducated americans who feel left behind and carry a big grudge.
There's actually a name for it: "privileged panic." It refers specifically to people who honestly have no clue why the disenfranchised are angry, or that they even ARE disenfranchised. [weeklysift.com] All they know is, they're suddenly under attack for things they've done all their lives and never thought twice about, much less been criticized for. The hue and cry is what happens when you shift a paradigm without a clutch. [terminallance.com] And as you say, it is playing to the panic - Fox news et al has a very simple model of journalism; i.
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OK, thanks for this insightful reply. I had never heard the term privelaged panic. I also appreciate you adding links for more information. tell me more about your perspective on gamergate? I think my understanding is pretty spot on. based on my understanding, the whole thing started when some women were making videogames that were outside of the mainstream and blurred the lines of what a game was. Other women were making cultural commentary videos about videogame history. I never saw any attacks on gamers
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I shoudl add that I'm a gamer tool. Currently working my way through just cause 3. looking forward to uncharted.
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"If the telescope doesn't get built it will be because the people who want to build it aren't willing to make the compromises that are required as part of a democratic process."
Hawaii doesn't want astronomy, and it is not the job of astronomers to convince them otherwise. Even if they were to start the 7-14 year permitting process over again, it wouldn't change the opposition. Start construction right away at an alternate site.
Sierra San Pedro Mártir in Baja California is a site on the original list fo
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Wrong, Hawaii as a whole might well want astonomy, but a flawed process and flawed judge gave some outcast weirdos a megaphone. Disgusting how the ignorant can hold back human progress.
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Since this controversy started, I've been following the state news closely, and I from what I can see the response to the native oppositions is...lukewarm indifference. I see a few positive comments in newspaper story response threads, sandwiched between huge blocks of misspelled but fervent screeds from the religious opposition. Where are the business organizations like Rotary and Chamber of Commerce? Where are the counterprotests? Where are the academics at UH and other schools?
I get the impression that t
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Where are the academics at UH and other schools?
They are keeping low lest they come into the sites of the Native Hawaiian groups. UH has some brilliant researchers who do work on marine life and volcanoes. They want to pursue their own research. If they dare to put their fingers into the TMT hornet's nest, they will be hit with lawsuits try to block marine life research, because the marine life has religious meaning ("that fish has the spirit of my great-grandmother in it!"), and lawsuits against volcano research ("that's where my great-grandparents u
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are you funny! "native Hawaiins" are only ten percent of the population. a minority should not be given control over what the majority wants.
Re:Unhelpful Whining (Score:4, Informative)
I'm in Arizona, where the real organizers of this protest tried the same tactics during the Nineties, when the telescope construction was on our Mt. Graham, with somewhat less success. You might want to read their manifesto:
http://dgrnewsservice.org/2015... [dgrnewsservice.org]
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If nothing else, the bribes should be more affordable in Mexico. They'll need their own paramilitary force to discourage going back on the graft, however.
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There's historically marginalized people everywhere, if you go back far enough in time everyone was and everyone has. Those "natives" oppressed other natives at some point (unless you believe in that wholesome native tribe - Comanches, Tibetans, Hawaiians - they weren't very nice to their neighbors) so do those ancestors get to claim the land? If you do keep giving people what is 'rightfully' theirs by going back further and further, then you get into situations like Africa where tribal wars and slavery hav
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The argument against the TMT is that it would be built on sacred ground, essentially for religious reasons. Isn't that an establishment of religion and, therefore, in violation of the first amendment?
No. This is not, in the words of the First Amendment, about passing a law that prescribes a particular religion or impedes the free exercise thereof. This is a dispute about the usage of land. Scientist want to use it to build a telescope. A group of native Hawaiians object on the grounds that the land has historic and spiritual significance. IMHO, both sides have standing, and I hope they work something out that preserves both of their interests.
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There are two possibilities. Either these lands are public or they are private (or could be sold to a private group). If I build a telescope on my private land, you have no right to interfere with that even if it offends your religious beliefs. If the lands are public, then trying to maintain them
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If I build a telescope on my private land, you have no right to interfere with that even if it offends your religious beliefs.
My neighbors objected to my building an unshielded reactor on my private property. This is why America is going to hell. No respect for private property.
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I suppose it's not surprising that someone who believes in scientific racism (as you obviously do) also would think that a religious symbol on your neighbor's property is the equivalent of an unshielded nuclear reactor.
I am sort of surprised that you took a comment noting that property rights are not 100 percent on the side of the property owner, and gyrating that to scientific racism. Especially, what the hell is scientific racism anyhow?
If I wanted to place a 300 foot cross on my property in my neighborhood, I wouldn't be allowed. If I wanted to pan for gold, I wouldn't be allowed.
What the hell are we arguing about anyhow? We seem to be more or less on the same page, except my attempt at humor upset you. Hint, I don
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Generally, you can do both of those things on private property. You are restricted from doing them if you bought your property without mineral rights or if you bought property where there are CC&Rs or zoning restrictions.
Scientific racism is the use of scientific and pseudo-scientific techniques and hyp
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Wow... what religion prohibits building unshielded reactors?
The church of Christ, nonScientist?
Re:Establishment clause (Score:4, Informative)
There are two possibilities. Either these lands are public or they are private (or could be sold to a private group). If I build a telescope on my private land, you have no right to interfere with that even if it offends your religious beliefs. If the lands are public, then trying to maintain them in a way that caters to the religious feelings of any group amounts to an establishment of religion; that's unacceptable as well.
And, of course, "native Hawaiian" is an ill-defined and corrupt concept to begin with, so "native Hawaiians" ought not to have any legal standing as a group at all. That isn't just a question of justice; if you let people retroactively interfere with property and ownership rights based on their membership in some racial group, you create so much risk and uncertainty that you scare away investments and business. Any sane businessman and investor is going to ask: if we build a new power plant or factory or dock or shopping center, how much risk do we face that some "native Hawaiian group" is going to claim that we are treading on their sacred ground and kill the project halfway through, or demand pay-offs?
That isn't just a question of justice; if you let people retroactively interfere with property and ownership rights based on their membership in some racial group, you create so much risk and uncertainty that you scare away investments and business. Any sane businessman and investor is going to ask: if we build a new power plant or factory or dock or shopping center, how much risk do we face that some "native Hawaiian group" is going to claim that we are treading on their sacred ground and kill the project halfway through, or demand pay-offs?
Especially since the Mauna Kea Telescope is just a proxy fight. This group of Hawaiians at core do not want white people on "their" islands at all. The native Hawaiians refer to anyone not of their race as Haole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] , although it is mostly used as a racial epithet against Europeans.
From the article:
In 1944, Hawaiian scholar Charles Kenn wrote, "In the primary and esoteric meaning, haole indicates a race that has no relation to one's own; an outsider, one who does not conform to the mores of the group; one that is void of the life element because of inattention to natural laws which make for the goodness in man. In its secondary meaning, haole ... implies a thief, a robber, one not to be trusted.
In likewise manner, in Hawaiian schools, on the last day of school, they have "Kill Haole day", where natives are supposed to harass and attack the white students. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
The Southern Poverty Law Center has this to say about the incredibly racist Hawaiians:
https://www.splcenter.org/figh... [splcenter.org]
So sorry Hawaiians, I consider you to be just as racist as the southern preacher in the 1859's preaching how the bible condones owning black people, as racist as any group of KKK members, who lynch and burn crosses on lawns. As racist as any southern state you care to name.
And do not even attempt to hand me the idea that since some white people have been racist, that its okay with you being racist, because you are then condoning their racism. You are 100 percent as big a collection of racist scum as they were.
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I can see why the natives would be upset, having been invaded and subjugated by the US army and their land taken.
Not sure how that affects building telescopes though.
Yes, wrong is wrong. The thing is that they aren't exactly innocent or pure. Their religion is a caste system, their religion practices human sacrifice, segregates men and women and as far as I can tell, the Tahiti takeover (Disputed) or Maori merely shows whatever they are, they aren't the first, so they have no permanent claim.
Some researchers think they may even had pre-Columbian American contact due to the presence of the sweet potato in Hawaii.
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Well, before you get all pushed out of shape, you might start telling us who you define as "Hawaiian". How many "drops of blood" should a "Hawaiian" have according to Ol Olsoc to be legally considered a member of the "Hawaiian race"?
As I said, personally, I don't consider Hawaiians anything at all, since I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Hawaiian".
What there is is "native Hawaiian groups", which seem pretty similar to something like the
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As I said, personally, I don't consider Hawaiians anything at all, since I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Hawaiian".
What there is is "native Hawaiian groups", which seem pretty similar to something like the Thule Society.
Yes, you are right. There is a lot of ambiguity over the original Hawaiians, Polynesians, Tahitian, and Maori and even possible pre-Columbian Americas influence. As well as the dates of occupation. Some have even noted some sort of "little people" living there, although that is disputed.
So Ol Olsoc doesn't think a pure Hawaiian exists at all - and that's just another knock against these folks. I pretty much dispute their claim over the islands any more than anyone else's.
I also dispute that some deity
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> A group of native Hawaiians object on the grounds that the land has historic and spiritual significance.
It doesn't. The top of Mauna Kea was used by the natives as a *rock quarry* for stone tools. There is literally tons of archeological evidence of that:
http://www.mauna-a-wakea.info/... [mauna-a-wakea.info]
https://photos1.blogger.com/bl... [blogger.com]
Re:Fuck you, protesters (Score:5, Interesting)
if Hawaii was still its own country, you'd have your own 1%ers
That was certainly the historical case, and going back into pre-Western-contact days, the ruling class (ali`i) were so elite that if a commoner even looked at them the commoner was subject to death.
Having said that, though, the situation, like everything here in Hawai`i, is complex. Certainly bad things happened back in 1893; it's hard to study the history and think otherwise. But that was a long time ago. What's right? I don't really have the right to be the judge of that.
However, most of the protesters overlook the fact that their ancestors were astronomers and skilled in things like celestial navigation. The ancestors might very well have supported something like the TMT. The ali`i seemed to believe in progress (a little known fact is that Honolulu was, in the days of the Kingdom, an early and enthusiastic adopter of the telephone, under the direction of King David Kalakaua).
Last spring I happened to be on the University of Hawai`i Manoa campus (the main campus, in Honolulu). There was a large group of TMT protesters spread along Dole Street. Granted, they were all very polite and behaved very well, which is a credit to their movement. But was it their movement? I stopped and listened to some of them talking; a number of them were speaking `olelo Hawai`i (the Hawaiian language). Very cool. But they really didn't know what was going on. I overheard them saying that they (at least many of them) were taking part because their UH Hawaiian Studies instructors told them they had to be there.
Re:Fuck you, protesters (Score:5, Interesting)
"That was certainly the historical case, and going back into pre-Western-contact days, the ruling class (ali`i) were so elite that if a commoner even looked at them the commoner was subject to death."
And in particular, only the ali'i were permitted to go above the treeline on Maunakea. The kãnaka, or commoners, would be clubbed to death for venturing up to where the telescopes are now.
Yippee! Macrons work now. Thanks for the encoding fix, new owners!
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Yippee! Macrons work now. Thanks for the encoding fix, new owners!
Now if only there would be a way to render the `okina correctly, in a way that would display reliably on most browsers!
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A little of the money is from Stanford and UC, but most of the $1.4G comes from a consortium of foreign countries. Choose one that has a good site, and build it there.
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A little of the money is from Stanford and UC, but most of the $1.4G comes from a consortium of foreign countries. Choose one that has a good site, and build it there.
Small correction - that's Caltech and UC.
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Um, how many really tall mountains in the northern hemisphere do you think there are among those countries? Ignore any in the US because it'll probably have this same problem.
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No, there are not many good sites for an instrument this size. The only other alternatives besides San Pedro Mártir would be Gran Canaria (Canary Islands) or the Tibetan Plateau.
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> At $50 per month per infant,
I say, stick with the boob, it's free!
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"Why would you object to a stellar observatory on or near Stone Henge? "
Yes I would, because it rains a lot there and the sky is hazy that close to sea level. One passable viewing night every ten years and my detectors would keep rusting out.
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