What Spotlighting Harassment In Astronomy Means 432
StartsWithABang writes: Geoff Marcy. Tim Slater. Christian Ott. And a great many more who are just waiting to be publicly exposed for what they've done (and in many cases, are still doing). Does it mean that astronomy has a harassment problem? Of course it does, but that's not the real story. The real story is that, for the first time, an entire academic field is recognizing a widespread problem, taking steps to change its policies, and is beginning to support the victims, rather than the senior, more famous, more prestigious perpetrators. Astronomy is the just start; hopefully physics, computer science, engineering, philosophy and economics are next.
Lots of harassment in science (Score:5, Funny)
I'm an astrologer and I frequently encounter harassment from mainstream astronomers and academics, so it swings both ways.
Re:Lots of harassment in science (Score:5, Funny)
Well, if you're good at it, you should see it coming before it happens....
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No, just that astrology gets dissed and that's unwelcome.
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I bet people running Three-Card Monte games don't welcome being "dissed" either.
Who? What? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who are these people? Why did you separate a list of names with periods?
What did they (allegedly) do? How do you know there are "a great many more" who have done, and are still doing, the same?
For bonus points:
When were these things done?
Where were they done?
Why? How?
FUCK!
Re:Who? What? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Who? What? (Score:5, Insightful)
Trying to vaguely synthesize a "problem" may work in other circles, but hard science doesn't want to hear that there's "some kind of thing going on, maybe", it wants facts, places, numbers, reproducible events, documentation, data, something real, something tangible.
Hell I would settle for some correlation at least:
Is the rate of sexual harassment higher for $field than it is for the general population?
If it is then maybe there is more research to be done to discover why and try to correct it.
If not then there is not a problem in $field, there is an asshole problem. And you deal with the asshole problem by getting rid of the assholes and not blaming the field the assholes happen to work in.
(disclaimer: I am not calling anyone from TFA an asshole, just stating in general)
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What is a summary? Why does it not contain every detail about a story?
For bonus points, use a dictionary to find out what a summary is and use Google to find out what those people did along with when, where, why and how.
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What do you hope for? (Score:3, Insightful)
"hopefully physics, computer science, engineering, philosophy and economics are next."
Don't you really mean, "hopefully this is only a problem with astronomy and no matter how deep we dig we will not find this issue in any other field"? Do you really hope this issue is widespread?
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"hopefully physics, computer science, engineering, philosophy and economics are next."
Don't you really mean, "hopefully this is only a problem with astronomy and no matter how deep we dig we will not find this issue in any other field"? Do you really hope this issue is widespread?
Um. Sorry. I read the article, we're not supposed to do that I know, but it says, in the last article that it's a problem across academia.
So, yes, it's a widespread problem where a lead scientist or teacher controls the lives of those underneath them and takes advantage (sexually or otherwise). You never knew someone in college who did the teacher's job for them without pay? We called them grad students.
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in the last article that it's assumed to be a problem across academia.
There, FTFY.
Re:What do you hope for? (Score:5, Insightful)
AThere is a huge difference between low paid work (like an internship) which is part of the learning process, and being sexually taken advantage of. Making the two the same is stupid.
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I quoted the part I wanted to talk about. I have nothing interesting to say about the prevalence of sexual harassment in academia. I mean, I've seen anecdotal evidence,but nothing interesting on a largescale (interesting stories on the other hand...)
But I can talk about the idiocy of comparing grad students doing shit work that someone has to do (which seems fine) and sexual harassment.
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They have already decided the issue is widespread before they even do any research into it.
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Science: It's a Girl Thing! (Score:2)
Published on Jun 22, 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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That's sexist!
Forbes -- adblock -- no read. Your loss. (Score:4, Insightful)
So, the last link is for the Starts With A Bang blog, which is on forbes.com. They have their silly "turn off adblock" policy, so I don't get to read it because I use Ghostery. Not reading this particular blog is not a huge loss for me, after all it's a speck of dust in an infinite internet universe of interesting stuff. When enough feel like I do, it'll be a much bigger loss for the blog, and indeed for Forbes.
It's kind of sad when smart people implement dumb solutions.
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Use uBlock Origin instead, it somehow evades their "turn off adblock" policy.
Mod parent down. (Score:2)
Bah, humbug (Score:4, Insightful)
Does harassment exist? Sure they do. So do sociopaths, thieves and other lowlife scum. However, I remain unconvinced that this is any sort of widespread problem. More than thirty years in tech, and I have yet to see first-hand, or hear second-hand, of one, single harassment case. I read about incidents in the news, but like weird accidents, they seem to make the news precisely because they are unusual.
The people pushing this stuff claim to be helping women. In actual fact, they couldn't hurt women more if they tried. In a professional context, men actively avoid meeting one-on-one with women. Two people need to talk about a project? If it's a man and a woman, the man (if he has a brain) will refuse to meet anywhere but a public space. No man will mentor a women, for fear of being accused of ulterior motives. Male-dominated teams actively avoid hiring women, because doing so risks unfounded harassment complaints, gender discrimination lawsuits, etc..
Re:Bah, humbug (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Bah, humbug (Score:4, Insightful)
I am guessing you're a male? Try asking women you know. I think you'll be surprised (if not shocked) by the crap women have to deal with on a fairly regular basis.
Why am I not surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
More than thirty years in tech, and I have yet to see first-hand, or hear second-hand, of one, single harassment case.
There is safety in posting as an anonymous coward. ---
But, to my ears, you describe a male-dominated workforce that has circled the wagons and s profoundly hostile and suspicious of women:
men actively avoid meeting one-on-one with women. Two people need to talk about a project? If it's a man and a woman, the man (if he has a brain) will refuse to meet anywhere but a public space. No man will mentor a women, for fear of being accused of ulterior motives. Male-dominated teams actively avoid hiring women, because doing so risks unfounded harassment complaints, gender discrimination lawsuits, etc..
-1 Self-Refuting (Score:2)
You can't claim that all of this stuff is so unusual that it is newsworthy and then a paragraph afterwards say that it's so common that men everywhere are actively avoiding women. Pick a story and stick to it.
My own anecdote, btw, says that mild forms of discrimination happen relatively often in male-dominated professions (jokes, phrases, or inappropriate conversation) but that serious harassment is relatively rare (I've never seen it). On the other hand, most women I've worked with have been competent and
Re:-1 Self-Refuting (Score:4, Informative)
Bah. It's just that women-on-women harassment isn't an interesting story that fits the narrative.
I can tell you, though, the harassment I've gotten from women (and yes, when four of my co-workers come to me and tell me that one woman has been talking about me to them behind my back) has been, I think, probably more insidious than anything I've gotten out of men.
Men have approached me for sex (I think they thought more that I had low self-esteem as opposed to "stupid girls can't engineer", which is why I don't call it a "sexism" problem as much as a "well, what do you want, there are assholes in every environment" problem). When I've been told about the women in my vicinity sneering at me, it was in that "you clearly don't know how many people she told that to before it got to you" way.
So, I see your male-dominated professions and raise you asshole women wherever asshole women may be found.
Re:Bah, humbug (Score:4, Interesting)
We once needed to hire another developer, but we were short on space. There was a woman that we really wanted to hire, but she would have had to share my cube with me. I told my boss no way no how. I would never harass a woman or do or say anything even close to harassment, but the chance of some sort of harassment complaint would go so high with us working in such close proximity (what if I accidentally backed my chair into hers? Obviously that was an unwanted advance) so I flat out refused. We hired a man instead. I felt bad for the woman, but the environment is so toxic for men working in close proximity to women that we couldn't chance it.
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We once needed to hire another developer, but we were short on space. There was a woman that we really wanted to hire, but she would have had to share my cube with me. I told my boss no way no how. I would never harass a woman or do or say anything even close to harassment, but the chance of some sort of harassment complaint would go so high with us working in such close proximity (what if I accidentally backed my chair into hers? Obviously that was an unwanted advance) so I flat out refused. We hired a man instead. I felt bad for the woman, but the environment is so toxic for men working in close proximity to women that we couldn't chance it.
So, in other words you got your male boss to hire a less qualified male employee instead of the more qualified woman on the basis that you didn't want to work with a woman, and you think this story is an example of how women don't get harassed in the workplace?
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StartsWithABang: Pushing pro-malware Forbes, again (Score:4, Informative)
Remember: StartsWithABang submits articles for the sole purpose of driving traffic to his own articles on FORBES. Forbes is unworthy both for supporting content like this, and for their aggressive pro-malware stance for adblock suppression.
Poor summary as per usual (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't just go on about something you haven't even told us about yet.
It's gender discrimination the editor was talking about by the way. You have to be clear in these situations because every special snowflake is being "discriminated against" in some way either because the way someone fucking sits or because someone doesn't automatically know they are a genderfluid, cross horse/dragonkin from Planet Zarblox X and are only attracted to slightly rounded triangles.
It's a good thing that problems like this are being tackled, but nowadays I'm always skeptic when people start trying to make a deal of it because most of the time it's someone being over sensitive because they wore cat ears and a tail to a job interview and yell "DISCRIMINATION" or "CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE" when they don't get the job.
That's what SJW's have done to actual battles for equality: they've bastardized it and made it less than it actually is by yelling louder than the people who experience the ass slaps or slurs or unprofessional jokes.
Everyone's so eager to be offended.
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are only attracted to slightly rounded triangles.
well i would like to point out that pie chart sections are being a total teases! i mean, why would you be outside of the rest of the pie if you weren't asking for it?! ;)
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Right, most people aren't like you.
Sounds like something interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
Too bad it's on Forbes and there is no way I will turn off my adblockers to view the page.
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Exactly. Fuck you Forbes.
Oh, it's "StartsWithAShit" -- and nothing of value was lost.
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Just improve your adblocker. Add the Adblock Warning Removal List to AdBlock, and Forbes is once again viewable. Of course, you can also boycott them.
Click here (Score:3)
Uh-oh... (Score:5, Funny)
Of course it doesN'T (Score:2)
Does it mean that astronomy has a harassment problem? Of course it does
Does it?
Or does it just mean that some people have a "harassment problem" and that by the law of averages some of them will work in astronomy, or engineering, or botany...
Did anyone actually read the articles? (Score:5, Informative)
Did anyone read this article? [space.com]. "Geoff Marcy, a leader in the field of exoplanet research, has resigned from his position as a professor of astronomy at the University of California, Berkeley, following an investigation that found he violated the school's sexual harassment policies."
Or how about this one? [cnn.com] "Results from a recent AAS survey were reported at the last week's plenary session on harassment, defined as unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability or genetic information. Some 82% of astronomers have heard sexist remarks from their peers; 44% heard sexist remarks from supervisors; 9% experienced physical harassment from peers or supervisors."
Those articles do not read like SJWs and the do seem to indicate some sort of a problem.
What does it mean? (Score:2)
I read the whole story summary and I still don't know what "spotlighting harassment" means, in astronomy or anywhere else. I assumed it meant preventing people from engaging in astronomy by shining bright lights or something, but then other fields are mentioned.
Maybe the linked articles explain it, but from the summary it doesn't sound like they do.
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"This week’s all-AAS town hall was the first since Marcygate. Hundreds of members attended the meeting, which was intended to address sexual harassment, with a view toward fixing the culture in astronomy, but also science more broadly, and society at large. It was an ambitious goal for a town hall, but astronomers like to dream big." http://www.theatlantic.com/sci... [theatlantic.com]
It's rather obvious.
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I thought that's what it was too.
Wait, I've got it (Score:2)
"I demand a safe space where I can act like an asshole."
Watch people's head explode.
Agreed, we should stop harassment (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, we should stop the harassment of astronomers and astrophysicists just because they wore tacky shirts in a press conference. Once we're satisfied that's been settled (say, 5 years with no incidents), we can start working on the rest.
Literal spotlighting (Score:2)
Reading the title, I thought that "spotlighting harassment" literally meant shining bright spotlights where astronomers use their telescopes. Which is, I guess, an effective way to piss them off.
WTH is Spotlighting Harassment? (Score:2)
Does it involve shining spotlights at astronomers? Wouldn't the perpetrators simply be fired?
Or you mean just "harassment". That is fairly well defined legally and is generally a crime, if you are the victim of harassment, then you should collect evidence and talk to the police.
And why the hell are the only sources between Forbes and CNN? Since when do they do anything scientific or actual news?
weekly SOCJUS (Score:2)
Punish or cure? Your choice is your measure. (Score:2)
Sure our entire society has an issue with how people interact, that is obvious, but a social maturing process should be achieved in a nurturing rather than a punitive manner. Not only do we need to educate potential perpetrators (which
Re:Have you upset someone in the victim demographi (Score:4, Funny)
His conduct was unwelcome to me! BURN THE WITCH!!
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At the very least, it was written in a "clarity, logic, and grammar are optional" field of some sort.
Re: Of course it does (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, you know what to do next time someone tells you to check your privilege -- by which they mean "shut up, independent white male". That kind of aggression is primarily based on race, sex, and ability.
Re:Of course it does (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, for the the snowflakes who consider the sentence "I disagree with you" to be hate speech, I must be a monster.
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Re: Of course it does (Score:2)
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I tell a woman I like her new haircut? Nope - that can be taken as a sexual advance - lawsuit time.
Yeah, but if you don't talk to her, then you're excluding her--which is also harassment.
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When a woman tells me she likes my hair, I don't usually take it as a sexual advance unless she is trying to touch it in which case I find this awkward and a little uncomfortable. Most times it turns into a conversation about hair care products although not always.
I have long hair and have no problem talking about how I keep it or what unmanly products I have to use to make it shiny. I've never complained that a woman sexually harassed me but probably should have on a couple occasions.
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That's not how most sane, non-SJW's define it.
That's how it's been defined in private industry for decades (although it has eased off a bit in recent years).
If a member of a protected class feels threatened or uncomfortable, they were harassed. Period. Should I tell a woman I like her new haircut? Nope - that can be taken as a sexual advance - lawsuit time.
You're not making any argument that this is a sane definition. But maybe you knew that.
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So, how does this whole SJW thing work ... the world is divided into raging fanatics who want a nicer world, and assholes who want to preserve their right to act like assholes?
I'm a little unclear on the concept.
Mostly it seems to be a bunch of guys whining they can't act like ignorant douchebags without consequences.
Re:Here we go. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, you see, son, there's this group that raised a bunch of strawmen, and a group that didn't like being picked on by that one group created strawmen of their own, and every so often one side puts their strawman up in a field and demands highway travelers just passing through to help burn down their strawman, to show those guys over there how awful they are, and they should repent.
And then the other side sees this, flags down the traveler, and says "yeah, their strawman sucks, but here, burn down ours; it'll make you feel better about that strawman since that other strawman there was a commentary about YOU, friendly and possibly disenfranchised traveler."
Said traveler raises brows, alarmed, mutters, "Not my circus, not my monkeys" and promptly floors the pedal.
Both sides are filled with first-world-problem-ridden douchebags that want to act like ignorant assholes without being called on it. Both sides think they're doing the right thing.
Everyone else ain't got time for this shit, until it invades their space.
Oh, look, it's time to gather straw. Anyone got a few extra flannel shirts lying around?
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Well, we can make some fresh popcorn for you as soon as we start a fire.
Here, have a match, friendly traveler.
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You don't need microwave radiation to make popcorn, you retarded millennial one-chromosome-too-many dungdong.
Any heat source plus a wok/skillet works.
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So, how does this whole SJW thing work ...
Ask the women of Cologne. They may have some insight about the workings of social justice.
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Clearly the blue-eyed bitches were insulting the prophet (PBUH) by dressing as decadent western whores.
They should all be sentenced to mandatory sensitivity training. Whose country do these dirty blonde slappers think it is?
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SJWs are mostly a "progressive e-penis contest" that spiraled into insanity.
Goes like "i'm complaining on twitter that people should not offend black people!", "oh yeah? i'm complaning on twitter that people should not offend black transsexual people!", "yeah? you two are small fishes, i'm complaning about all the microagressions against black transsexual disabled indian women that happens on campus!" and so forth.
Re:Here we go. (Score:4, Insightful)
Which story was this? I skimmed the articles, but didn't see this story described (and am far too lazy to actually read the articles in full).
Also, I don't know about whether punishment is fair, but it's certainly not fair to the student to ask them to find another advisor. An academic advisor isn't something you can change like a pair of shoes, and requiring a change can have an impact on your academic career.
If the man had serious problems with the idea of continuing working with her, that sounds like a mental problem on his part. Maybe the solution is to find the student another advisor, but to simply say "you're too sexy, out of luck" is the wrong way to frame it, even if it leads to the same outcome.
Re:Here we go. (Score:5, Informative)
One of the astronomers in that list was punished for realizing he had emotional feelings about a student and telling her to go seek another adviser.
You're leaving out the part where he also harassed a second student. She provided the school with chat logs and other correspondence where he said things like âoeDo you think I am a shady person because I let myself be emotionally involved with my student?â and âoeI think I may actually be prone to this sort of thing.â The guy knew he was in the wrong, but instead of correcting his own behavior, he just moved on to the next student he could harass the same way.
The university barred him from contact with students and forced him undergo rehabilitative training not to punish him, but because he was a lawsuit waiting to happen when he finally went too far.
Re:Here we go. (Score:4, Insightful)
Please don't muddy a good rant about how men are so put upon with actual facts.
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No there are some levels where it's gone quite far beyond "normal human beings". I knew a professor once that seemed to just hate women. He would tell female graduate students "why are you here and not at home having babies?" That's not normal human behavior. Of course he also berated male students as well, he was an equal opportunity hater. But students were reluctant to call him out or complain to others because this was a senior professor so he got away with it.
Re:Here we go. (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps you are not clear about what harassment is?
If you take a little bit of Google for a moment, you learn that harassment is "aggressive pressure or intimidation".
Your definition is too broad. Perhaps some people like it that way, but not me. I like words to mean specific and precise things so that when I bring my case to the law, they know exactly how actionable it is, and so that justice is appropriately served, and so that nobody can misuse the law against me with too broad a definition.
I might "disregard" your feelings and call you an ignorant jerk. But that isn't harassment. At least I hope so. I don't know anymore.
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Perhaps you are not clear about what harassment is?
If you take a little bit of Google for a moment, you learn that harassment is "aggressive pressure or intimidation".
....chomp....
Of interest to bystanders is that this is a spectrum issue.
For some "aggressive pressure or intimidation" is "good morning you
are looking good today".
i.e. what was a compliment is now an acknowledgement of other topics not related
to the work at hand.
Other bystanders ponder the astounding permutations of the modern world of LGBT+
where inclusion and exclusion are difficult to quantify for a laundry list of reasons the
least of which is Sex on employment records is binary M/F. It does not even address
the obv
Re:Here we go. (Score:4, Insightful)
Harassment is everything said, done after you have been told No or stop.
"I'm sorry , you haven't done any of the work, I have to fail you for this class."
No. Stop.
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Harassment is everything said, done after you have been told No or stop.
"I'm sorry , you haven't done any of the work, I have to fail you for this class."
No. Stop.
Why is this modded up? As "Funny", maybe, but not really even that.
Re:Here we go. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the kind of mentality that leads to witchhunts and dark ages. Stable societies depend on free flow of the truth, regardless of how upsetting it might be to some.
Re:Here we go. (Score:5, Insightful)
Meaning that it must be ok to speak regardless of hurt feelings so that truth can be heard and false statements called out. I never said that no means yes. Of course, you're equating the former with people who think the latter, which is an ad hominem fallacy.
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Re:Here we go. (Score:4, Insightful)
Have you ever been given unwanted romantic / sexual attention? Or seen it happening? Isn't it uncomfortable? And shouldn't people be able to work without it?
I'm a heterosexual man, and I've got a male coworker who is bisexual, who once when (in a group of coworkers) discussing a particularly smart outfit I was wearing, said "You're making me hot just looking at you." He genuinely meant it as a compliment, but given that we had never had more than a professional relationship, it was inappropriate.
Now he hasn't really made any further comments, so it hasn't been much of an issue (although I am much more circumspect about how I interact with him now). But suppose he said something like that once a month. Or that he kept asking me over to his place or to go see movies 1-1. That would make me pretty uncomfortable -- and I shouldn't have to put up with that at work.
That's not to say you can never ask anyone out at work. It's to say that you should be aware that the other person is unusually constrained. It's not like a party where they can just mingle somewhere else: they're stuck working with you unless one of you finds a new job. You should always be reasonably sure that the question itself will not be unwelcome, even in a merely social situation; at work, the level of "how sure should I be" is higher -- not because of the risk of being fired, but because of how much more constrained the other person is in how they can respond if they're not interested.
Doesn't that make sense? This seems like basic human consideration to me.
Re:Here we go. (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit. We're all allowed emotions. Harassment is when you let your emotions affect your actions and disregard the feelings of others.
Your feelings are no one's problem but your own. Any time you find yourself about to say "you made me feel", stop, and shut up before you proclaim your immaturity to the world.
If you think there's something wrong with a professor realizing he's on dangerous ground, and has either lost objectivity about, or might begin actually sexually harassing a student, and stepping out of the adviser role, WTF? It's exactly the right behavior - better to not fall for the wrong person, but humanity has never found a solution to that problem.
Re:Feelings are part of being human. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but when it comes to truth, no one should expect exemption from it at others' expense. The more we enable these hugboxes, the less society is capable of dealing with reality.
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Funny. The other day someone on TV was saying that in America you still have the right to be obnoxious. Did he and I both miss the memo where Freedom of Speech is still Free, but only as long as you say the right things?"
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Except that people who perceive injustice are called SJWs before they've done anything about it, or called that when the only action they took was to point out that the injustice existed. There very act of perceiving injustice offends these anti-SJW-warriors.
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Really? Because the majority of people who are accused of being horrible evil SJW scum
Did you, or did you not see his qualification that sometimes the "perception" is actuality and sometimes it's imaginary.
He didn't use a qualifier like "there people always..."
As for your supposition that "the majority of people".
I'd ask you to actually support this claim. So long as it doesn't anger you to the point of starting an SJW movement to persecute people who ask for tangible proof of ass-pull statistics.
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And therefore proving that you said it so that's you.
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We call them "School Directors" over here.
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Where, specifically?
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Where? Reality. You should perhaps try to live there?
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"Simple solution .. castrate everyone who thinks they are a SJW.
They already act like a bunch of whiny punks with no balls anyway, and this way they won't procreate."
There. Fixed that for ya,
They are all trans anyway so they'll end up doing it to themselves just to fit into their own crowd!
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Is soulskill posting these angrily while coming down between crack cocaine hits?
No, the problem is that StartsWithABang was foaming at the mouth when he typed it, which caused his keyboard to malfunction and spew all this garbage into the text box.
Worst headline, too. (Score:4, Funny)
I read "What Spotlighting Harassment in Astronomy Means" to say they were going to explain some harassment of astronomers by people with spotlights.
The headline should have said something about Sexual harassment, and "Implications of ..." rather than "What ... Means".
Is the headline's author not a native speaker of English?
Yeah I know... (Score:2)
I initially thought "Spotlighting" was as an adjective here qualifying harassment. So I was wondering if some group was harassing astronomers with spotlights clipping their sensors or something and being a nuisance.
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Mars' surface is red, not the atmosphere which is practically invisible since it is so low pressure.
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/ Triggered
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Yeah, but how else would Slashdot get clicks for internet drama?
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Are you on drugs? Incoherent shit about something with gaslights and other crap including not understanding a simple fucking sentence?