Brain-Eating Amoeba Scoffs At Chlorine In Water Pipes 151
An anonymous reader writes: The Naegleria fowleri amoeba typically feeds on bacteria in water and soil. Human digestive systems have no problem killing it, but inhaling water that carries the amoeba gives it the opportunity to work its way into the brain after it sneaks through the nasal mucus. It happens rarely, but 97% of people whose brains start swelling because of this amoeba end up dying. Like most microorganisms, N. fowleri can be neutralized with concentrated chlorine. However, the systems we use to deliver tap water aren't so clean. Researchers found that N. fowleri can easily survive for 24 hours when it's mixed with the types of biofilm that tend to reside in water pipes. Increasing chlorine levels isn't a good option, since its reaction with these biofilms can generate carcinogens.
Re: Article (Score:2, Funny)
Tonight at 10 - Everything kills you.
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My goodness, how did Cavemen even survive drinking muddy water and eating raw meat...it's a wonder we are even here!
Re: Article (Score:1)
It is horrific, however... (Score:5, Interesting)
" 97% of people whose brains start swelling"
So basically, if you start showing the signs, you are probably gone. However, IIRC, they found a fairly large portion of the population actually has antibodies for N. fowleri, indicating that getting infected may not be that uncommon, just that most infected are asymptomatic (or maybe mistook it for some more trivial ailment).
It would be interesting to also know the percentage of exposed who do not experience brain swelling...
Re:It is horrific, however... (Score:5, Funny)
Let's put it this way. Before his infection by N. fowleri, the APK troll was a perfectly well adjusted heterosexual male with normal bodily desires, and a healthy, can-do attitude towards life. After the infection, he became a host file-obsessed lunatic who can think of nothing else.
Tragic, really.
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It also made him gay.
Re: It is horrific, however... (Score:1)
He is now, anyway.
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Let's put it this way. Before his infection by N. fowleri, the APK troll was a perfectly well adjusted heterosexual male with normal bodily desires, and a healthy, can-do attitude towards life. After the infection, he became a host file-obsessed lunatic who can think of nothing else.
Tragic, really.
The APK troll is a bot.
Well he is NOW. Before N. Flowleri he was as human as you or me.
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Look up Encephilitis (inflamation of the brain.) the outlook is not in favor of the brain with this illness.
Neti Pots (Score:5, Insightful)
Guess I should boil that water first.
Re:Neti Pots (Score:5, Informative)
Guess I should boil that water first.
Definitely [cbsnews.com]
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as well as removes a heaping lot of other garbage too
Including a bunch of nutritionally important minerals, which are also responsible for making the water taste pleasant.
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Dr. Hibbert: Another broccoli-related death.
Marge: But I thought broccoli was—
Dr. Hibbert: Oh yes. One of the deadliest plants on Earth. Why, it tries to warn you itself with its terrible taste.
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There is a largish group of people who believe that distillation somehow makes water poisonous. This is utter ignorance. Distillation makes water pure, and the body *loves* pure water.
It doesn't make the water "poisonous", per se; but it does leave behind some beneficial micronutrients.
So, if you drink exclusively distilled, or Reverse-Osmosis water, you should look into taking some micronutrient supplements, too.
I am also of the opinion that attempting to remove all the immune-system challenges from your life is actually not a good thing; but I also understand that there are limits. I just think that the limits have both an upper, and a lower, boundary, beyond which we are in increa
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Guess I should boil that water first.
I use bottled purified water (used to be called "distilled") for my neti pot.
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Purified and distilled are two separate things. Purified really just means filtered (paper filter, reverse osmosis, etc).
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Purified and distilled are two separate things. Purified really just means filtered (paper filter, reverse osmosis, etc).
Not always. At least not anymore apparently. I buy distilled water regularly and recently it changed to "purified" but the label still states that it was distilled from municipal water sources, just like before. Not sure why the switch in marketing but you're right, it CAN mean other thing so not really happy about it.
Re: Neti Pots (Score:2)
Re: Neti Pots (Score:1)
oh god no, you are thinking of mineral water and if you think that is tasty you must be european.
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I always thought that meant they added minerals back in for taste.
That's "spring water" or "drinking water". Yea I don't get it either. I need distilled water for my humidifier. It's annoying having to check labels to see if it's just distilled water, filtered, or spring since I can't trust the names all the time anymore.
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Distilled "and/or" RO.
It's marketed as purified because it may not be distilled.
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Why is this being discussed? (Score:2)
Hasn't every single case in USA been due to someone swimming in a open body of water?
Why would we care about them surviving in drinking water?
Re: Why is this being discussed? (Score:5, Interesting)
For people that use things like neti pots. They provide a direct route past the blood-brain barrier.
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For people that use things like neti pots. They provide a direct route past the blood-brain barrier.
Wow..... if your neti pot is bypassing the blood-brain barrier, then, my friend, you are using it wrong.
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No, some cases have been attributed to the use of nasal irrigation (Neti Pots) (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tap-water-in-neti-pots-behind-two-brain-eating-amoeba-deaths-in-2011-investigation-finds/). Those products now have warnings to use only distilled or boiled (and cooled) water in them.
There are many ways to get water up your nose such as kids playing in the bathtub or a childrens pool), submerging your head, laughing at posts on slashdot while drinking, etc. Even though the odds seem unlikely it
Re:Why is this being discussed? (Score:5, Funny)
"There are many ways to get water up your nose such as... laughing at posts on slashdot while drinking,..."
Those are going to be some poor, hungry Amoebas!
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laughing at posts on slashdot while drinking
I don't think Naegleria fowleri can survive in Mountain Dew (nectar of the 'tards).
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Those products now have warnings to use only distilled or boiled (and cooled) water in them.
Insufficient warnings in my opinion. The actual text:
Warnings: Rinsing your nasal passages with only plain water will result in a sever burning sensation. Always Use Distilled, Micro-Filtered (through 0.2 micron) Commerically Bottled or Previously Boiled & Cooled Down Water at Lukewarm or Body Temperature, properly mixed with NeilMed SINUS RINSE packets. Do not use tap or faucet water for dissolving the mixture unless it has been previously boiled and cooled down. Do not rinse if nasal passages are completely blocked or if you had recent ear or sinus surgery, contact your physician prior to irrigation. If you experience any pressure in the ears, stop irrigation and get further directions from your physician. Keep out of reach of children. Read and retain the enclosed brochure, if provided, for instructions and other important information. Inside components of this unit are not for individual sale. Do not discard this printed box and any enclosed printed material. The inside final product may not have all the details you require for the ongoing use of the product. If this printed box is used as an inner subassembly box, it will not have the lot number and expiration date. Please refer to the main point-of-sale box for further details. STORE IN A COOL & DRY PLACE
I guess the Capitalizing Every Word is their way of putting it in bold text, though not as bold as the end which becomes red and eventually all caps.
Anyway, the warning makes it out to be something not all that important (particularly because it's mentioned after something that, while painful, isn't likely to cause any long-term damage), and also because they didn't bother to bold it, but rather, they merely capitalized all of the nouns. So it comes acr
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laughing at posts on slashdot while drinking
A, that's what is meant when somebody says "this joke is killing me"...
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Hasn't every single case in USA been due to someone swimming in a open body of water?
No. [cbsnews.com]
Why would we care about them surviving in drinking water?
Because it's also the water that you shower in, swim in, get sprayed with if someone uses a squirt gun on you, get splashed with when you wash a dish by hand and so forth. Most people don't want to constantly be exposed to a parasite that can kill them.
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Frankly I don't think someone that would do something so stupid are a big loss to the gene pool. I had never heard of a neti pot before, and now I wish I didn't.
Re: Why is this being discussed? (Score:1)
Cured my hay fever when drugs stopped working
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They do a great job getting rid of nasal clogs without putting too much pressure on the inner ear. used appropriately, nasal irrigation is effective source [webmd.com]
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Frankly I don't think someone that would do something so stupid are a big loss to the gene pool. I had never heard of a neti pot before, and now I wish I didn't.
You, sir or madam, are an ignoramus! You don't even get a pass for being unfamiliar with modern medicine, since this is very, very old medicine (that's still prescribed by mainstream doctors).
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Exactly. The article points out that the amoeba can survive in choline levels found in drinking water. That is precisely why chlorine levels in swimming pools are much higher than those in drinking water.
The episode of "Monsters Inside Me" that featured this lovely organism was based on someone who had swum in a warm, freshwater pond. Which is yet another reason I won't swim in anything but a chorinated pool.
Is it a problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
N. fowleri can easily survive for 24 hours
But is it surviving? Does it even exist in our water system at present? I only know about this amoeba, because it became an issue up here in Minnesota when a boy swimming in Lake Minnewaska was believed to have contracted the disease and passed away. (Although, it was later determined that he died not from an amoeba but rather from bacterial meningitis. [cnn.com]) But, as this was happening, it was shared that there's been only 35 confirmed deaths from amoebas [cnn.com] over the last 10 years. Do we really need to concern and trouble ourselves over something killing 3.5 humans a year?
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That article also says: Someone can get infected with PAM from swimming in warm fresh water, such as a lake or river. So, there have possibly been zero deaths from chlorinated water. So it's more like being concerned over something that kills no people per year.
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That article also says: Someone can get infected with PAM from swimming in warm fresh water, such as a lake or river. So, there have possibly been zero deaths from chlorinated water. So it's more like being concerned over something that kills no people per year.
2 > 0
However, the victims - a 28-year-old man and a 51-year-old woman from Louisiana - had not been near freshwater. The only thing they had in common was that they both routinely used the tap water with neti pots. Further tests on their home plumbing came back positive for the amoeba, although the city's water distribution systems' tests came back negative. The bacteria was found in a tankless water heater in the man's home and in the bathroom sink and faucet tub of the woman's home.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tap-water-in-neti-pots-behind-two-brain-eating-amoeba-deaths-in-2011-investigation-finds/ [cbsnews.com]
It's rare, sure, but it can and does happen.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ta... [cbsnews.com]
It happens currently, just not commonly either.
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That article also says: Someone can get infected with PAM from swimming in warm fresh water, such as a lake or river. .
How does someone get infected with Cooking Spray?
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Few deaths, but come on, anything that eats your brain is really fucking scary. They are like microscopic zombies.
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Clorine isn't the solution (Score:5, Interesting)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Better than Chlorine.
Re:Clorine isn't the solution (Score:4)
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Even better make water pipes out of Cobalt 60. That will take care of it.
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Probably not much better than copper pipes but a lot more expensive.
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Probably not much better than copper pipes but a lot more expensive.
Not at the current prices for copper!
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Whenever somebody asks a question starting "Why don't they...." - the answer is always "money". (R. Heinlein)
We call Ozone the nuclear option of water treatment. Chlorine can generally do the job and it isn't just cheaper but more reliable.
Re:Clorine isn't the solution (Score:4, Insightful)
Whenever somebody asks a question starting "Why don't they...." - the answer is always "money". (R. Heinlein)
That's pretty optimistic. In my experience at least half the time the answer is "because that idea doesn't actually work".
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Ozone is pretty much universal in any modern treatment plant. It just doesn't last when put into the pipes so the water is open to recontamination as it goes through the system. These systems are far from sealed.
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Chlorine produces cancer causing chemicals. Water treatment at the plant is nice, but contamination along the way is worse. Use Ozone at the delivery endpoint, and eschew Chlorine altogether.
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Are you suggesting having an ozone treatment system fitted to every house, every water fountain, every tap in the country?
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Considering many (most) homes where I live already have a water treatment system (aka Water Softener) in place, considering that a few more also have reverse osmosis to make chlorinated water actually taste good ... Yeah.
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Holy shit the water quality in your area must suck. I know a few people who have a water filter but they would be the minority and it is usually because they got a fridge with the built in water chiller.
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AFAIK chlorine isn't used for disinfecting the water, but only to keep it clean as it travels in the pipes.
Nasal rinsing ... use some care (Score:5, Informative)
Using a Neti pot, NealMed or homebrew .... it seems still sensible to either:
1) Boil water, and hold at temp for several minutes (a "hot pot" e.g. http://www.zojirushi.com/app/p... [zojirushi.com] typically holds the water at a boil for 4min) or
2) UV sterialize http://www.steripen.com/advent... [steripen.com] as an example
While one can use distilled water, often it sits around potentially growing something (but probably nothing brain eating) so making it fresh has advantages.
Yes, these pests are rare; but the results dire enough one should take reasonable care before putting water up one's nose these days.
Re:Nasal rinsing ... use some care (Score:4, Funny)
1b. Let the water cool for a while before using the Neti pot.
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Oh, just throw ice in it, it will cool down quick enough like that /sarcasm
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Using a Neti pot, NealMed or homebrew .... it seems still sensible to either:
1) Boil water, and hold at temp for several minutes (a "hot pot" e.g. http://www.zojirushi.com/app/p... [zojirushi.com] typically holds the water at a boil for 4min) or 2) UV sterialize http://www.steripen.com/advent... [steripen.com] as an example
While one can use distilled water, often it sits around potentially growing something (but probably nothing brain eating) so making it fresh has advantages.
Yes, these pests are rare; but the results dire enough one should take reasonable care before putting water up one's nose these days.
I guess that means that you shouldn't go swimming in fresh water? Even a chlorinated pool could contain this parasite for 24 hours if there is that same film inside the pool's plumbing.
Re:Nasal rinsing ... use some care (Score:4, Informative)
The pools are chlorinated to a much higher level, because you don't need to keep the water drinkable.
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Boil water, and hold at temp for several minutes
Do we have any evidence that N. fowleri survives more than a moment at boiling temperatures? The only info I could find is a study that found N. fowleri spores survived 2.5 minutes at 65 C, but they only tested very cold and somewhat hot water. No boiling. I've been boiling water for just seconds to sanitize it. But while this study doesn't show it's immediately killed, it *does* imply that letting boiled water cool down naturally will provide enough time to kill N. fowleri spores. (Unless you drop its temp
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Oops, here's the link to the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm... [nih.gov]
P.s., here's a link to another study that I can't access due to paywall. It was cited in the appropriate place, so it's relevant: http://www.sciencemag.org/cont... [sciencemag.org]
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The instructions I've seen said specifically to use distilled water, never tap water.
So chlorine is not a good option? (Score:1)
What alternatives work?
chloramine?
ozonation?
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ultraviolet sterilization (my drinking water supply)
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Not sticking tap water up your nose?
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Chlorine is a good option. This is just a stupid study. They took tap water and added this microbe then waited to see how long it took to die.
The water treatment systems kill these microbes before they go into the pipe network so you are looking for somewhere else that these things can get into the network. Once you add the low risk of contamination anyway with the fact that 24hrs in the system will kill them it is a non issue.
sigh - bad summary (Score:2)
Lightweights... (Score:2)
Why not infect Naegleria fowleri with Mimivirus? (Score:5, Interesting)
According to this 2008 biomed paper: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1... [biomedcentral.com], Naegleria fowleri is likely vulnerable to Mimivirus (possibly Mamavirus too?) infection.
Given that Naegleria fowleri is close to 100% fatal, why not try infecting the Naegleria fowleri infection with Mimivirus?
Mimivirus is only speciously associated with Pneumonia in humans, and Pneumonia has a much better survivability rate. Worst case scenario it does nothing and the patient dies (which was going to happen anyways), best case scenario the Mimivirus kills Naegleria fowleri and the patient survives with no pathology. Middle road scenario, the Mimivirus kills Naegleria fowleri, the patient survives but has Pneumonia.
Personally, I would choose having a bout of Pneumonia over having my brain eaten by an amoeba any day.
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Naegleria fowleri is close to 100% fatal,
It's close to 100% fatal once symptoms present (and are further successfully diagnosed as n. fowleri). There are confirmed instances of signs that some of the population has unknowingly gotten into their systems, so it may be significantly less than 100% fatal even when infected.
So the number to eye is about 3.5 deaths per year. So it's either the case that exposure is actually very low or else that most that get infected never even know. Pneumonia on the other hand has a much higher death count.
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Pneumonia on the other hand has a much higher death count.
Sure, but you'd only be trying this on people who are *already* symptomatic for N. Fowleri infection, at that point the base rate is irrelevant.
Yeah, pneumonia is nasty, but it isn't 100% fatal. Besides, the link between Mimivirus and pneumonia is only speculative, Mimivirus might not cause pneumonia at all.
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What would be your assessment if the chances of the brain eating amoeba was 1 in a million, but the chances of the pneumonia infecting you was 1 in 10?
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... if the chances of the brain eating amoeba was 1 in a million, but the chances of the pneumonia infecting you was 1 in 10?
You are missing the point completely. Like I said previously, you would only try this on people who are ALREADY SYMPTOMATIC. Once you've developed N. fowleri infection symptoms (e.g. Primary Amebic Meningoencephalitis (PAM)) what the chances were of you developing those symptoms to start with is pretty fucking irrelevant.
Once you are symptomatic, your chances of dying are pretty close to 100%. Whatever the fatality rate of pneumonia is, it certainly isn't 100%, and even if Mimivirus can actually cause Pneu
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That makes more sense, I thought you were saying to put this other bacterium in the water supply to kill off this one, which sounded a little insane.
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... I thought you were saying to put this other bacterium in the water supply to kill off this one, which sounded a little insane.
Putting *enough* Mimivirus (which is a virus, not a bacteria) into the water supply to kill off ALL N. fowleri amoebas WOULD be insane. Mimivirus is already present to a certain level in the same environments as N. fowleri though, so it's already in the water supply, just hopefully not in enough quantities to infect people...
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According to this 2008 biomed paper: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1... [biomedcentral.com], Naegleria fowleri is likely vulnerable to Mimivirus (possibly Mamavirus too?) infection.
Given that Naegleria fowleri is close to 100% fatal, why not try infecting the Naegleria fowleri infection with Mimivirus?
Mimivirus is only speciously associated with Pneumonia in humans, and Pneumonia has a much better survivability rate. Worst case scenario it does nothing and the patient dies (which was going to happen anyways), best case scenario the Mimivirus kills Naegleria fowleri and the patient survives with no pathology. Middle road scenario, the Mimivirus kills Naegleria fowleri, the patient survives but has Pneumonia.
Personally, I would choose having a bout of Pneumonia over having my brain eaten by an amoeba any day.
Dr. House, is that you?
E-Cigs as Infection Vector (Score:1)
Then I remembered a friend who has gotten into these vapes/e-cigs or whatever they are called. The thing is, he mixed his own juice, because ordering raw nicotine fluid is apparently a lot cheaper than premix.
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Contrary to what the mass media says sometimes, they do not use water vapor.
They work by boiling propylene glycol and/or vegetable glycerine. These have a much lower boiling point than water.
Directly inhaling boiling water from from an inch-long metal pipe wouldn't let water vapor cool, and would cause nasty burns.
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Whilst a comment above says that E-Cigs don't use water vapor, what about humidifiers that atomize instead of boil the water? I have an expensive one for when my children have colds or the flu.
I'm thinking I might boil the water first...
Its probab ly possible, but insignificant compared to the risk of legionaries disease [eurosurveillance.org]
Biofilm, yummy (Score:2)
"A biofilm is any group of microorganisms in which cells stick to each other on a surface. These adherent cells are frequently embedded within a self-produced matrix of extracellular polymeric substance (EPS). Biofilm extracellular polymeric substance, which is also referred to as slime (although not everything described as slime is a biofilm), is a polymeric conglomeration generally composed of extracellular DNA
Safety instructions (Score:2)
1. Sterilize water before using Neti pot. (Boil tap water, or use distilled water.)
2. Inspect Neti pot for zombies before use.
97%? (Score:2)
It happens rarely, but 97% of people whose brains start swelling because of this amoeba end up dying.
And the other 3% end up not dying? I like those odds!
Pipes, making noise (Score:1)
Sometimes at nights I'm quite sure that a distant "Brainzz" could be heard from the water facet.
Even more shocking. (Score:2)
Not just 97% of those with brain swelling dies, but 100%!
Not only those with brain swelling die, but 100% of those exposed die!
Even 100% of those NOT exposed die. Eventually.
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Re:If you can't beat em... (Score:5, Funny)
I used to play in a garage band called Brain Eating Amoebas.
I was once in a band called 1023 Megabytes, we never made it to our first gig.
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You also solved overpopulation!
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Not for long. Humans will quickly breed and repopulate.
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The problem is that from an evolutionary perspective, you are probably leaving the 3% alive that have evolved a resistance. Those are most likely all very closely related to each other (from the same lineage that carries the resistance) so you are going to be inbreeding a lot more than is already the case, inbreeding causes more defects and thus lower life span.