Road To Mars: Solving the Isolation Problem 137
An anonymous reader writes: As space technology matures, new missions are being funded and humanity is setting its goals ever further. Space agencies are tackling some of the new problems that crop up when we try to go further away than Earth's moon. This New Yorker article takes a look at research into one of the biggest obstacles: extended isolation. Research consultant Jack Stuster once wrote, "Future space expeditions will resemble sea voyages much more than test flights, which have served as the models for all previous space missions." Long-duration experiments are underway to test the effects of isolation, but it's tough to study. You need many experiments to derive useful conclusions, but you can't just ship 100 groups of a half-dozen people off to remote areas of the globe and monitor all of them. It's also borderline unethical to expose the test subjects to the kind of stress and danger that would be present in a real Mars mission. The data collected so far has been (mostly) promising, but we have a long way to go. The technology and the missions themselves will probably come together long before we know how to deal with isolation. At some point, we'll just have to hope our best guess is good enough.
Antarctica (Score:3)
Not any more isolation than expeditions to Antarctica in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Re:Antarctica (Score:5, Insightful)
Not any more isolation than expeditions to Antarctica in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Less, actually. There were no telegraph lines on the Antarctic expedition, and I don't know how effective radio was (not very in the late 19th century obviously). Aside from when the two planets are on opposite sides of the sun, communication will merely have high latency. We'll be back to sending podcasts and video messages, not chatting on Skype, but it's still quite a bit better than what those early explorers faced without even leaving the planet.
When the two planets are on opposite sides of the sun (which is what, a period of less than a week happening less than once a year?), a third point will have to be used to "go around", reducing bandwidth and adding to latency, but it's still better than nothing.
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Who said Mars One was useless! http://www.mars-one.com/techno... [mars-one.com]
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Who said Mars One was useless! http://www.mars-one.com/techno... [mars-one.com]
Will never happen. Not even their "space relay communications satellites." Noah Money" will see to that.
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From a communication standpoint, I agree. But Antarctic expeditions always had the expectation of water, air, and probably fish, availability, which are valuable and scarce resources in space; the environment is challenging but they could survive. On a Mars exploration not having the ability to survive in the natural environment would be terrifying, and I think that would increase feelings of isolation.
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When the two planets are on opposite sides of the sun (which is what, a period of less than a week happening less than once a year?), a third point will have to be used to "go around", reducing bandwidth and adding to latency, but it's still better than nothing.
I've seen most of the plans indicate a relay sent to Earth's L4 or L5 so that even when on the opposite side of the sun, communications would be uninterpreted, though the delay would be at its peak.
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I think the issue not as big a problem as the article suggests. The sort of people who will be on the first journeys to other worlds will like have to fight hard to be accepted to go, and endure a hell of a lot of training. Psychological testing and training will no doubt be included along with other preparations for such a mission. That doesn't factor in such as-of-yet-undeveloped advancements like prol
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Really though, isolation is only a real problem when you get down to small numbers. One person by themselves will go insane, but a large enough group isn't exactly unusual or unnatural. How many people do you really deal with in an average day, after all? The only real question is wha
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"uncharted" does not equate with "unoccupied".
A couple of years ago, my commute to work included an 8 hour boat ride starting from port passed by Vasco de Gama on his outward trip to Calicut ; at that time, the port had been established for several centuries by Arab slave traders.
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Or India (including "West Indies") in 15-16th centuries. People just went — profit-driven — without the luxury of even the radio communications (however high-latency) with homes and families.
And, on the subject of Antarctica, it just seems crazy to go through the trouble of settling Mars (or even Moon) without settling Antarctica first. It is so much closer, easier, and cheaper — and yet remains empty and unpopulated...
A few other areas (Siberia, Australian Outback, American Midwest, Saha
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Even before that happens, Antarctica is much more habitable for humans than Mars.
If you want to talk about Global Warming, please, start by citing some successful predictions made by that "settled science" in the 20-30 years, that it has been talked about.
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No idea, what you are talking about. Please cite the actual prediction (one link) and its materialization (second link).
And no, a single successful prediction, whatever it is, is not enough to validate a scientific theory — so be sure to have a few... Thank you.
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> It is so much closer, easier, and cheaper — and yet remains empty and unpopulated...
Under international law all nations have agreed not to lay claim to Antarctica or attempt to settle it. Only scientists doing research are allowed to live there and even then they aren't allowed to remain permanently.
Short of the UN suddenly being disbanded, world war 3 happening or some other equally massive disruption in the social fabric of the world Antarctica won't be settled. It's got nothing to do with prac
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We're not that special - we are just another animal.
Slight quibble: you might think it is safe ground to claim that, but we have no idea what sentience is nor how it works nor which creatures have it. Is an ape sentient? Is an ant sentient?
Claiming we are "human" or "ape" or "just an animal" is about as proven as claiming we are "God's children" or "living in the matrix" whatever other claptrap. We know we are sentient of the world, but we haven't located sentience IN the world. We know that what we experience can be altered by altering the brain, but what i
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it just seems crazy to go through the trouble of settling Mars (or even Moon) without settling Antarctica first.
The company that gets the first Moon base will have a captive workforce and no pesky government interference. It will be a libertarian's paradise. Plus, they get to lob rocks at the Earth if anyone argues with them.
I'm not sure, but I think someone wrote a book about this.
Libertarians on the Moon (Re:Antarctica) (Score:2)
Except, in the book it was a nightmare — both for Libertarians and others — exactly because the government, in the person of Warden, interfered with everything.
Granted, any monopoly — corporate or governmental — is likely to lead to a nightmare, but a prison-Warden backed by the armed prison-guards is among the worst systems imaginable.
An
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I would like to see one or more antarctic bases become more self sufficient as a way of moving us towards an understanding of what it would take to sustain a human colony using local natural resources in a completely inhospitable environment. Basically, Antarctica just has air, ice and some rocks once you get away from the coast. What would it take to create a self sustainable human settlement there and could those lessons be applied more generally to the moon, Mars or Venus?
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Antarctica just has air, ice and some rocks
And the Moon and Mars have only the last of these.
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Maybe there is a better alternative than a test colony in Antarctica if the real problem is being able to mine and process small quantities of rocks for necessary materials. Just set up in a barren area with access to a variety of minerals and see if you can bootstrap a small mining operation utilizing solar for power and small/micro scale industrial facilities that rely on minimal oxygen (ie no combustion).
The problem statement is: Find the least amount of equipment you need to transport to the site in
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... or heading west along the Oregon Trail.
Have we really become a bunch of pussies?
Magnificent isolation [Re:Antarctica] (Score:2)
Not any more isolation than expeditions to Antarctica in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Wrong. Hobart is 7 days sail away. Sthn NZ is even closer.
Now. That's why I said " in the late 19th and early 20th century."
Back then, they would get frozen in, winter-over stuck in ice, and in the following summer, do the exploration.
Basement-dwelling Introverts (Score:3)
So just send people who are happiest sitting at the same keyboard for days if not hours on end, with minimal human interaction. Problem solved. Surely we can find some smart ones who would be worth sending, if we can pry them out of their homes.
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This.
Introverts barely have an issue with being alone in the slightest.
I literally see no problem but one of their own creation.
And if they have no intros, just send them all up with occulus rifts and a good VR suit an VR Suite to boot.
Boom, never get bored and can go anywhere.
Look for people with not only skills, but hobbies.
Not all intelligent people have the emotional and mental maturity of a 5 year old. You just have to look for them.
Big Brother is not a reality show, it is an unreality show.
Design spa
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If only Doritos were good at blocking gamma particles ...
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Well, in the 1970's I spent two winters in the Canadian bush. Not much human contact like TV or radio. I'd see someone on their snowmobile every once in awhile when the weather wasn't too cold. It's do-able. (and I did something similar in the 90s). I'd really rather be around other people, but I could do it. They just need to choose people who fit the correct profile.
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Except you had all the resources that come with being on Earth -- air, water, various critters to eat. And, most importantly, you knew, at the end of the day, you could always hike your ass back to civilization: you were not alone, certainly not to the extent a dozen people in a capsule on target for Mars will be.
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we also want people who are physically fit though
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And who can get through the door of the capsule. And who won't increase the fuel budget by 40% due to the amount by which their mass exceeds the design expectations...
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And who can get through the door of the capsule. And who won't increase the fuel budget by 40% due to the amount by which their mass exceeds the design expectations...
That should be simple enough to address if you start ahead of time, just give them some skinny people poop transplants.
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relevant username
You talkin' trash 'bout me again? (Score:4, Informative)
"Basement-dwelling Introverts"
That's completely untrue.
I don't spend much time in the basement any more. I've become allergic to the mold down there.
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The truth is, that kind of person is damn near the worst choice possible and the polar opposite of the kind of person you need.
You don't need someone who can't or won't deal with individuals. You need someone who can deal with forced close quarters interactions with individuals while also being able to deal with near complete isolation from society. These are two very diff
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This is exactly right: only send introverts. They're generally happy with small groups of familiar people anyway, and don't need lots of socialization.
On top of that, make the mission bigger. Have at least a dozen people, or even 20, and that really should be plenty of interaction to keep everyone happy. If you can't afford to build the ship big enough for 20 people, you can't afford the mission.
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But, but, the ping times...
Virtual Reality (Score:1)
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The technology and the missions themselves will probably come together long before we know how to deal with isolation.
That is very optimistic. There are a lot of problems more difficult to solve than the problem of isolation. As mentioned, it's similar to the problem of a long-term sea voyage.........
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There's a guy who unintentionally got stuck somewhere and didn't see anyone for 70+ days, no ill mental effects. He's not the only one with a simlar story. I remember reading a case from a magazine (pre-Internet, and I'm not finding it, but that one kept popping up), where someone lasted months. At the end, he went a little crazy, but he also hadn't eaten for months, so they attribute the craziness to the lack of eating, not the lack of human companionship.
People don't
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ISS studies (Score:2)
Re:ISS studies (Score:4, Interesting)
The ISS crew stays in their tin can for six month stints and seem to get along fine
Six months is not a year, and a year is not three.
Now, we are sending up a guy who will be there a full year, so we may see other things. Subtle (or not) effects of neurosis is almost a certainty. But such isolation could bring out more serious manifestations.
I think studies of prison inmates in isolation would probably be useful.
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I could hang out on Slashdot all day and nobody would know I wasn't on Earth.
I'll look for your "First Post!" down in the middle.
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Re:ISS studies (Score:5, Interesting)
I think studies of prison inmates in isolation would probably be useful.
Not really. Solitary confinement is more a study in sensory deprivation. Child molesters are pretty much cut off from most social interaction, lest they get beat to death, but while away their time reading books, doing crafts and like, and most importantly, have a definite release date, so they get by okay with limited social interaction.
A man can endure most anything as long as he knows it will end eventually, and he has something to occupy himself.
And even then, I'm not certain the emphasis on socialness is all that it seems to be. There is a persistent myth that all humans require social interaction, but they never differentiate it from sensory deprivation, so it is hard to say what exactly they are measuring. More than social interaction, people require novelty and new things to occupy their time. Several people are perfectly at ease with never seeing another face for years at a time. What is going to be hard is seeing the same face, especially locked up in a tin can hurtling through space.
Antarctic research stations usually sign on for 6 month stints. Several usually sign on again and again, so it's clear that the right tight-knit group is able to go long periods without much outside interaction. The data is already there. You just have to be smart enough to look for it.
200 Miles up is not far away (Score:2)
The ISS crew stays in their tin can for six month stints and seem to get along fine (from what we know, anyhow).
They get along fine but they also are only 200 miles from Earth and could come back down within a few hours/days in an emergency in most cases. Any trip to Mars is going to be substantially more isolated and getting home will be months if not years if possible at all. Radio to the ISS is more or less instantaneous. Close to Mars there would be 8-20 minutes of latency. While we can get useful info from the ISS astronauts, it isn't the same as a Mars mission. Not even close.
Scale issues (Score:2)
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I fully agree. The problem is political and social will. We're so obsessed that everything return on their ROI in less than a year, preferably less than six months that a large scale project is considered an anathema to our current "values" (a.k.a. worshipping the almighty dollar/pound/etc.). I really wish we had the will to explore like we did in the 60's but, I don't see it anytime soon and that makes me very sad. The truth is that the advancements we made then are what created the information age an
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To be rotating at less than 1 rpm to avoid nausea means a radius of over 200metres though
It doesn't need to be less than 1 rpm. Less than two is low enough that it would be virtually impossible for a human to notice Coriolis effects internally (they still might be able to notice their morning coffee slowly stirring itself). 90% of people would be pretty comfortable at anything under 7 rpm. That lets you have a radius of about 7 meters to simulate Mars gravity. The kind of person who couldn't take that couldn't take a gentle sea voyage and would be screened out. Aside from that, the craft wouln'
Prisons (Score:1)
It might be interesting to look at studies done with long term prisoners in jails, where isolation and the effects of it, are fairly known.
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Isolation from humans is different than a prison isolation from everything. On the trip they'll have movies on USB and laptops, messages to send home and get from home. Completely unlike any prison experience.
They'll have work. They'll be scientists in a highly specialized and unique lab with unique opportunity. Like people in the ISS, anybody going to Mars on a space craft will have a laundry list of things to do, things to research, and otherwise things keeping them busy. They'll probably need off time to do nothing just to keep them sane. Their job won't start once they get to Mars, but well before they get on their way, and it won't be over till well after they get back to Earth.
This why Mars One is a doomed concept (Score:2)
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It's not a problem for most people, but I bet the people they're going to send include faggots who can't go a week without putting their erect penis up another man's anus.
That's probably by design - they don't want people giving birth to kids with severe radiation damage from the get-go.
ancient sea voyages WERE Suicide Missions (Score:1)
The "Right Stuff" was a myth of the Cold War (Score:2)
Now it's just a bunch of privileged rich kids playing with taxpayers toys ... no wonder it's forty years since we accomplished anything great!
Well if you want to restart the Cold War I'm pretty sure you'll be able to get all kinds of funding. The Cold War was 99% of the reason we made it to the moon.
We don't even have a real space station yet, what a joke.
If you think the ISS isn't a "real space station" you should probably put down the Babylon 5 DVD and come visit the real world.
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If you think the ISS isn't a "real space station" you should probably put down the Babylon 5 DVD and come visit the real world.
I have no idea what the OP was talking about there either, but perhaps he was taking issue with the ISS being in close proximity to Earth. So close in fact that Earth's gravity at the ISS is nearly 90% of that at sea level - it's only the freefall orbital velocity that gives the effect of zero-g.
Not that makes it any less a space station in my book. Just not a Deep Space station p
Existing study groups (Score:2)
Can't the scientists just study various IT departments around the planet?
Find a way to have internet access (Score:2)
If station in Mars could have internet access, many of the people would not know the difference. They could have Facebook, email, wikipedia. Internet signal lag would be 1000 seconds or approx 15 min, but internet access is possible. To be precise lag will be between 3 to 22 minutes, depending on the location in the orbit. You can surely play chess, trade stocks, read news and leave voicemails.
Heck, NASA can already sponsor invention of new type of games where delay in decision making is built in. Quite fra
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Interplanetary Internet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... [wikipedia.org]
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On top of that NASA is very bureaucratic and security conscious. There's zero chance open internet access would be allowed. What you'd get is some subse
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And who cares what NASA thinks, if the trip is privately funded, or co-funded in a way that allows some private access?
No "IP" laws on Mars! (Score:2)
Mars will need a good Deep Space Internet connection with Earth with no extended black-out periods so there will be a 24 minute delay tops (and about 4 minutes best-case). So I can send a message home and have a 3D virtual reality video reply back within the hour. That's not really isolation.
One thing that needs to be taken care of is to make sure there is no copyright or any other form of so-called "intellectual property" on Mars. Not only will this save lifes by not having to worry about patents / design
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One thing that needs to be taken care of is to make sure there is no copyright or any other form of so-called "intellectual property" on Mars. Not only will this save lifes by not having to worry about patents / design marks and whatever they come up with next, this also allows the Martians to have complete, full access to whatever media they want (think U.S.S. Enterprise-class storage systems with "the complete cultural accomplishments of planet Earth"), and create and share freely among themselves.
When sample-based hip-hop is only legal on Mars, only Mars will have... wait, what was the down side again?
Isolation (Score:1)
Setting up a new planet. (Score:4, Insightful)
People will die. It's that simple. It is not safe, it is not known and mars is an environment hostile to human life. For the first people doing this, isolation will be another issue to deal with.
It seems like an unrealistic ambition to attempt a Mars landing without an established space transport infrastructure, in the same way moon landings were attempted. Consequently, IMHO, I think any realistic colonization of Mars will start with humans orbiting it. First in a capsule/ship, then in a space station with repeatable journeys back home. Who knows, it maybe cheaper to just send a space station there in the first place and solve all of the problems of not having a magnetosphere to shield it first.
Once the infrastructure is established isolation will become less of a problem. The biggest problem we have NOW is the will to get human crewed craft out beyond LEO.
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You're right; all of the people who go to Mars will die.
Of course, all the people who stay here on Earth are ALSO going to die. And while it's quite likely that the ones who go to Mars are likely to die sooner than the ones who stay behind, that isn't quite so certain - and we'll learn lots of stuff about Mars, and about ourselves, in the attempt.
In his book "The Right Stuff", author Tom Wolfe noted that all of the streets at Edwards Air Force Base were named for dead test pilots. Getting out of bed and
London Times Advertisement (Score:3)
Men wanted for hazardous journey. Low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness. Safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in event of success.
Solution (Score:3)
Go up with Bethesda's current RPG. You'll be back before you finish it.
Seriously, though: cp library_of_congress /media/box_of_microsd_cards. Read books. Watch movies (and binge on TV seasons). Play games with your crewmates. Teach yourself something. Watch recordings from friends and family, record clips to send back. Invite tech companies to develop push versions of their services; they can't buy publicity like astronauts checking Facebook from Mars.
It's hardly isolation, and six months will go by before you know it.
I guess our biggest challenge is getting to Mars before our collective attention span has decreased to the point where we can't survive without minute-by-minute feedback from our social circle.
we could have AI companions (Score:2)
I'm Sorry Dave
I'm Afraid I Can't Do That
Obligatory Ren & Stimpy: Space Madness (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Choose the right people (Score:2)
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Nice troll.
Introversion *is* a thing. You might not believe it (or you might just be a troll), but plenty of people actually don't want nonstop social interaction, and voluntarily choose to be left alone. They may not even be ostracized at all!
Now, do introverts want to be 100% alone all the time? No, they usually have a few friends they see fairly often, and are usually happy to be more widely social every so often, just not all the time. But mostly they would be just as happy having a few friends, and *no
Isolation is the tip of the iceberg (Score:1)
Use bubbleheads (Score:2)
Since the trip is most like an ocean voyage, send submarine sailors. They're used to being isolated for long periods of time while being reasonably self-sufficient. They know how to manage their environment and deal with emergencies.
Just don't send anybody with them that isn't used to their sense of humor.
Thanks for the info.. (Score:1)
Send Me (Score:2)
Years of relief from people jabbering on about soaps, football, reality-tv, fashion, relationships, breakups, the weather and their dog? Oh god yes please!
How is this a problem? (Score:2)
Why does anyone even think this would be a problem?
Did the Homo Erectus walking from Africa to Asia in small family groups often murder each other?
Did the Polynesian cross-pacific crews commit suicide en-route?
Did the native americans all go crazy while crossing the land bridge on the way to becoming native americans?
Does this ever happen on submarines?
NASA has been worried about isolation, sex, and infighting since the 60s. Maybe they should stop asking themselves what will happen, a large group of nerds p
A new problem? Not at all. (Score:2)
You know, humans have operated in isolation on long, dangerous trips in very small groups regularly throughout history: for example, the voyages of exploration throughout the 16th-18th centuries.
I suspect that those only are remarkable in the level of documentation, and that primitive peoples did it a lot - a small group of hunters (or simply explorers) would depart and come back weeks or even months later. The fact is that the earth was a large, hostile, and relatively empty place for much of human histor
There is no isolation problem anymore (Score:2)
The problem now is how to provide sufficient bandwidth so that tablets and phones can be used indefinitely as a distraction. Think of a trip to Mars as just a really long line to wait in.
The Martian (book) - Andy W (Score:2)
Just a plug for a book I just finished, a great read about a near-future manned Mars mission that goes wrong and strands an astronaut on the surface - fast-paced, lots of technical details, sometimes funny. I couldn't put it down.
The Martian, by Andy Weir.
http://www.andyweirauthor.com/... [andyweirauthor.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T... [wikipedia.org]
Rum, Soddomy and the Lash (Score:2)
"Future space expeditions will resemble sea voyages much more than test flights, which have served as the models for all previous space missions."
Learn from experience, the Royal Navy had it worked out generations agao.
Cheaper and less Dangerous (Score:1)
People will die... (Score:1)
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