Acetaminophen Reduces Both Pain and Pleasure, Study Finds 187
An anonymous reader writes: Researchers studying the commonly used pain reliever acetaminophen found it has a previously unknown side effect: It blunts positive emotions (abstract). Acetaminophen, the main ingredient in the over-the-counter pain reliever Tylenol, has been in use for more than 70 years in the United States, but this is the first time that this side effect has been documented.
Headache (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Headache (Score:5, Funny)
"Not tonight dear, I don't have a headache"?
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or rather "Not tonight dear, I had a headache"
Re:Headache (Score:5, Funny)
The most common problem here is that men open with the wrong question.
"Would you like some Aspirin, dear?"
"No, I don't have a headache"
"Eeeexcellent"
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Not tonight dear, I had a Tylenol.
(and you could go further down the rabbit hole and bring in the product tampering case.)
Re: Headache (Score:2)
Except it's been shown that orgasm released chemicals in the brain that can eliminate most headaches. So the correct come back to "Not tonight, I have a headache" is "Excellent, because I have the cure for that in my pants". :) ;)
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Orgasms are, at least. So long as it's not an orgasm induced headache.
In my opinion, copious amounts of caffeine and aspirin are better for treating headaches.
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Yeah, but other things being equal, would you rather have caffeine, aspirin, or sex? (Yes, I know, for the archetypical /.er it's a hypothetical question.)
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Where's the conflict?
He claimed that orgasms could both treat a headache or induce a headache depending on the details of the headache. And then that caffeine and aspirin can also treat a headache - which is clearly true for most people aspirin helps for those with a caffeine withdrawal headache caffeine will help too.
How does any of that conflict?
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Yes, caffeine is especially good for treating headaches for the same reason it gives you one when you stop taking it. They'll give you IV caffeine sodium benzoate in a hospital if it's bad enough.
I do think caffeine is a horrible drug for regular consumption though.
oh yeah, that....uh....i don't know (Score:1)
Mandatory prescription for all Mericans (Score:1)
Pump em full of Tylenol! Don't want em having fun; then they might start thinking for emselves and become terrists.
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Err worse yet yooroopeens!
Tradeoffs (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps this is why they are sold over the counter. If they didn't also deaden pleasure, they may otherwise be too addictive to be allowed over the counter. To be non-addictive, they may have to reduce pleasure to compensate for reduced pain. They could be (relatively) non-addictive because the overall affect averages out to neutral feelings so that a "pill=good" feedback cycle is not produced in the brain.
Re:Tradeoffs (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep, because feeling good via any other means than mass consumption is bad. Although the principles mass consumption are very bad psychologically and do drive a need for feel better drugs. Mass consumption is also very bad for the environment, so what exactly are we doing by favouring it of simpler less environmentally taxing feel good methods, especially when the need for the feel good methods is driven by the feel bad nature of mass consumption ie you are not consuming enough so the engines of mass consumption purposefully sets out to make you feel bad in you failure to consume, which you can only alleviate via consuming more and more and more. The feedback cycle on mass consumption seems to be far worse all around, individually and environmentally.
Re:Tradeoffs (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you believe it is the job of government to regulate pleasure inducing substances?
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Within reasonable (cannabis, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, peyote) limits I don't view it as the job of the Government to regulate pleasure inducing substances. If you want to talk about the extremes (heroin and other opiates, cocaine, barbiturates), then yes, I think the use thereof should be regulated.
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Regulated, sure, but, banned seems to be doing more harm than good. Not saying they're good things, they're not but, banning them is just making criminals rich and powerful rather than keeping them off the streets. Not a good policy in my book.
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It's all on the heads of those damned Puritans
That should be the next 'go back in time' movie, send the Puritans to colonize Krakatoa and let the good-timing criminals colonize America
Re:Tradeoffs (Score:5, Funny)
We know where that leads: Australia.
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they were the parolee's who got out for good behavior.
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So,
Weed, Booze, Coffee, Cigs, Peyote good.
Coke, Smack, Barbs, Opium bad.
What about Shrooms, Acid, MDMA and Tryptamines?
And....uh... why should you be granted the right to make those decisions for me?
Just sayin...
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People don't OD on opiates (heroin) when the doses are controlled. The typical heroin overdose is because the user is sold heroin that is significantly stronger than they are used to. They then cut a "normal" dose and it's 50% stronger than they are used to.
This was proven in the dutch and other European studies where they started giving pharmaceutical grade heroin to users and saw a 95% drop in deaths. These studies halted almost all the bad effects of the drug as well in that the average user was able to
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It should, perhaps, be noted that what is defined as "extreme" depends largely on personal opinion.
If you give the government the power to regulate something, THEY define what is extreme. And the next Congre
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I really don't think that it is drugs that "turn a large majority of their users into slobbering idiots", this attitude is part of the problem.
I think that drugs are a side effect of a larger more fundamental issue in those people's lives. I mean, who doesn't like feeling good? Drugs can make you feel really, really good.
I think it is just that most people don't know how to talk about drugs because they can't, we don't let them. What they are going through is outside the experience of non-dr
Re:Tradeoffs (Score:4, Interesting)
Funny, as a pot smoker myself, who would love to see the terrible jobs program known as our drug war ended, I actually think its MORE important to legalize the harder drugs, even though they have a lot less users.
Fact is, drug laws have not been found even marginally effective at their intended purpose. Addiction rates do NOT go down as a result of them. In fact, about the only things drug laws have accomplished are filling prisons and creating law enforcement jobs. They also did a pretty good job making sure any violent street gangs that formed had easy access to lots of money, making them more lucrative and more able to expand and war with eachother.
There is ample evidence that drug addiction is not the cause of criminality either. However, criminality is the entirely predictable result of raising the price of people's addictions beyond their ability to pay and causing them to make irrational decisions like choosing between drugs and food or criminal acts and starvation.
Do you blame the drug addict who knows a little chemistry and knows he can feed his own addiction and maybe make some money cooking meth? Or do you blame the policy makers who created the black market for meth in the first place? No (or exceedingly few, there is always one of anything) homes burned before drug laws came to town. Now? Now half the people in burn units are there as a result of meth cooking..... and.,... the laws haven't even reduced drug use!
Whats worst, if you go back, its pretty clear all this hubub started as a jobs program after alcohol prohibition. It was the very people like Harry Anslinger who were facing possible loss of funding and their jobs with it, if new drug laws were not created..... they lied to congress like it was their job. Seriously, google good old Harry, you will see.
On the other hand, we have the swiss heroin study that looked at EXACTLY these issues. What did they do? Very simply....they provided heroin to junkies at what they believed would be an open market rate without prohibition and a safe place to use their drug. The result? well, they continued to use heroin, but there was a reported 90% drop in all other forms of criminality.
Drugs are not the problem, idiots who think they can solve all problems by just making laws against anything they dislike who are the problem.
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100% correct. I would mod you up except I already posted in this thread.
The song was wrong! (Score:4, Insightful)
So there *isn't* a fine line between pleasure and pain. At least in this case.
Hmmmm (Score:2)
Are they positive about this?
Re:Hmmmm (Score:4, Informative)
As someone who was prescribed acetaminophen with codeine(Tylenol 3) as a starter treatment for migraines I can say in my experience it does both. In the last 15 years I've since moved onto ultram and fiorinal c 1/2 which is it's own fucked up ball of wax. Why this is news though I have no idea, it was well known in the 1920's an 30's that both acetaminophen and codeine depressed the nervous system and they used it to treat shell shocked troops.
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No, they are not, as all good scientists are. From the actual journal article:
"Some limitations of our work should be noted. Specifically, we cannot ascertain from the current studies whether acetaminophen might blunt individuals’ attention or motivation to process emotionally evocative stimuli instead of (or in addition to) their evaluative processing of these stimuli."
Honestly, it's a pretty weak self-critique. I wish they had talked more about how meaningful the differences they found were. Yes, th
Zoloft is a 1000 times worse (Score:1)
Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse (Score:5, Insightful)
I had depression in college. They put me on Zoloft. It makes your head feel like its in a cave. While I'm sure the intent is to make sure your lows are less, it also makes your highs less. How was I supposed to get undepressed if I can experience as much happiness as before? I guess its for people who experience lows way more often than they experience highs.
How long were you on Zoloft? Sometimes the first few weeks can have very strange side effects that will diminish over time but on the other hand everyone's chemistry is different and perhaps Sertraline just isn't as compatible with your body as much as other people's bodies. Sometimes Prozac will work for a person who didn't get much benefit from Zoloft or perhaps Zoloft will work for someone who didn't get much benefit from Effexor. For me, personally, Zoloft has been a life saver; it elevates my moods and helps me control my anxiety.
I also have this theory formulated from both my own personal experiences and my observations of other people is that people who have depression, or other mental disorders, are so used to such extreme emotions that taking a drug that brings them down to an emotionally nominal level feels like being turned into a zombie to them because they're only used to feeling everything to such an extreme.
Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse (Score:5, Informative)
The best anti-depressant I have found is distance running. The second best is other forms of cardio exercise. SSRIs or SNRIs? Been there, done that, they did very little to help me with depression. I don't even think they took the edge off, although it's hard to prove that negative. Tried Celexa, Zoloft, Effexor, Prozac, and a few other ones. Not only did they fail to address (or even make manageable) the depression, they all came with a lovely side effect [wikipedia.org] and then six months of the other extreme [wikipedia.org] when I discontinued them.
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Yea, I used to think the same thing until I dated a woman who was bipolar. There are people out there with real problems, problems that aren't easily solved by "shake it off and take a lap." You probably went to the wrong doctor, who instead of taking the time to find out what your problem was (or wasn't), put you on the pharma cure.
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Antidepressants are fairly safe drugs, in that the side effects tend to be more annoying than dangerous. We don't understand depression all that well. (It's diagnosed by asking questions about symptoms, after all, and there are no confirming tests. Not last I saw, anyway.) SSRIs are pretty cheap when not patented, much less expensive than talk therapy.
Given that, I'm not convinced that giving drugs to a person who has depression is a bad thing.
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Yea, I used to think the same thing until I dated a woman who was bipolar. There are people out there with real problems, problems that aren't easily solved by "shake it off and take a lap." You probably went to the wrong doctor, who instead of taking the time to find out what your problem was (or wasn't), put you on the pharma cure.
Actually my MD saved my life, with a single verbal statement that was far more effective than any of the drugs that him or his predecessors tried, "Suicide is the most selfish decision you'll make and your friends will never forgive you for it."
I concur with you in principle, there are some people who need meds, but my gut feeling (reinforced by seven years of working for a mental healthcare agency, incidentally) is that we reach for them too quickly.
Well you're both right. Anti-depressants should always be used together with non-pharmacological treatment e.g. cognitive behaviour therapy. Often they're a vital component, making the patient more receptive to treatment by psychiatrist, but not always necessary. It's quite common to go through several SSRI/SNRI before finding one that works. This is how it will continue until the etiology of clinical depression is more completely understood and we get better meds.
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If I may ask, when did you begin running? Was it before you tried the anti-depressants, while trying them, or after you stopped? At any point did you take a long hiatus from running, either before you started anti-depressants and then picked it up after you started, or stopped and started while on the same anti-depressant?
(I deal with depression, currently on Celexa and Welbutrin; I've tried Zoloft in the past with same effects as GP, and most recently had a go with Venlaxflexin. I'm curious in drug-free po
Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse (Score:5, Insightful)
Doctors lack a fundamental understanding of the effect the drugs they prescribe for mental health treatment, and are effectively guessing as to what they think will work.
I came to this idea after a psychiatrist told me that the drugs were about balancing the chemicals in the brain, but I eventually realized that he had taken no measurements or anything before throwing any of them at me.
So what balance was out of whack? What effect would the medications have? Oh wait, he didn't know. These concerns were dismissed and antagonized. I was merely a patient, I needed to learn to obey the doctor. So what did I learn?
That the doctor, while purportedly concerned, was hardly treating me in a sound and reasonable manner, but was behaving in a way that worsened my problems and caused me several more issues.
Only sheer chance got me out with relatively little harm.
Maybe Zoloft, or Prozac, or whatever is serving you. There are others who are being damaged by the worst kind of treatment. One with delusions of grandeur.
I'd have been safer going to an herb shop and inhaling a potpourri.
Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse (Score:5, Interesting)
...a psychiatrist told me that the drugs were about balancing the chemicals in the brain, but I eventually realized that he had taken no measurements or anything before throwing any of them at me.
So what balance was out of whack? What effect would the medications have? Oh wait, he didn't know.
He's likely even more annoyed about it than you are.
The problem is that the imbalances may be located in a small part of the brain, and may be on the order of a few dozen molecules, from any of a few thousand chemicals. Thanks to the blood-brain barrier and the localized nature, the only way to actually measure such chemicals is with very invasive (and probably-lethal) brain surgery. There just isn't a simple test where the doctor can prick your finger, put a drop of blood in a magic machine, and tell you which of your neurons are misbehaving.
For much the same reasons, there are no direct treatments. We can't just poke your amygdala until it works like everyone else - and even if we could, the rest of your brain may not accept the change, and your problems could get worse.
Psychopharmacology is not engineering. The cause-and-effect relationships are not simple or direct. Rather than study in vain all of the chemical interactions in your brain, your doctor has studied in depth all of the medications he prescribes, memorizing all of their many side effects (with incidence rates) and known relationships to other medications.
For the actual treatment, yes, it is purely educated guesswork. In your particular case, you may have showed symptoms of X but not Y, so you're a good candidate for treatment 1. That didn't work at all, so treatments 2 and 3 are ruled out, because they work on the same principles. Treatment 4 might be an option, but it only treats symptom Z, which you don't have, but in a certain percentage of cases it does absolutely nothing for Z and causes inverse symptoms to X and Y. Now, that treatment only begins to work after a three-month buildup, so let's start you on that while also trying treatment 5, which starts working immediately and doesn't interfere with treatment 4. Unfortunately the improvement from treatment 5 is very mild, but it can be improved with treatment 6 which amplifies the effects of 5, but does interact negatively with 4.
These concerns were dismissed and antagonized. I was merely a patient, I needed to learn to obey the doctor. So what did I learn?
We learned that you think you know psychopharmacology better than the person who's studied it for several years.
Only sheer chance got me out with relatively little harm.
Or your stubborn attitude provided the push to develop a coping mechanism on your own, which is also a perfectly valid (though sometimes risky) treatment. When done intentionally (usually involving the field of psychiatry, rather than psychopharmacology), it's more an attempt to change the person to fit their condition, rather than fixing the condition to fit the person.
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There are bad psychiatrists. You may well have gotten one of them. It happens. Due to the sorry state of healthcare in the US, you may not have an alternative psychiatrist available.
However, the main point is that nobody knows what your depression really is or the best treatment, and that's not just a characteristic of your psychiatrist. An excellent one would have tried treatment after treatment until finding something that seems to work, and would have been annoyed at not knowing how to do better.
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And, if you have a better idea, please publish. The "many such doctors" are correct, whether you like it or not, and will be until we can gain a lot more understanding of how the human brain can go wrong.
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There is no money in antidepressants. They are cheap as cheap can be genetics.
Zoloft, Celexa, Prozac and Paxil are all generic and $10/90 days virtually everywhere.
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Like many other anti-depressant Zoloft is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor...
The other way to treat this is by increasing level of serotonin...
Seeds of Griffonia simplicifolia [wikipedia.org] contain a lot of 5-HTP, a precursor of serotonin..
It's non-patentable so I guess it won't be as popular as patented psychotropic drugs anytime soon..
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You can find HTP-5 (also known as oxitriptan) in many drugs, not only herbal supplements..
http://www.catalog.md/drugs-in... [catalog.md]
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One of the problems is that depression isn't a single process. It's a symptom, and we lump a lot of things under that name.
The exact details vary from patient to patient. Also, the differences in the way the drugs used to treat it are metabolized in different people can be pretty significant.
I've taken Prozac for nearly as long as it's been available. It works well for me. When I've gone off of it to see if I could do without, the depression came back on a pretty predictable timeline. I tried another antide
Re:Depression is a symptom (Score:2)
Depression is a symptom of the fundamental fact that life sucks.
Life is pain and suffering, and to create it is to condemn that life and it's progeny on average to hell. Not creating it means that niche will be filled with other life which will suffer on average.
From a utilitarian point of view, while your life might not be bad, life on average is expected to suck, and the most humane thing to do would be to destroy or sterilize life and remove it's very niche so other life can not evolve to fill it.
Piloti
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No, Zoloft made your head feel like it's in a cave. It didn't do that for me.
For some weird reason, different SSRIs have wildly different side effects on different people. A friend of mine said that Zoloft made him feel like his skin was crawling off, but he didn't mind.
It's true! (Score:5, Funny)
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You should take some happy pills and dismiss all bugs as WORKSFORME! It works for me.
= paracetamol (Score:5, Informative)
Most of the world calls this drug paracetamol.
Re:= paracetamol (Score:5, Informative)
are you sure not Tylenol? also Panadol, Mapap, Tempra, Feverall, Ofirmev, Acephen, Mejoralito, Xl-dol, Bf-paradac, Aypanal, Aphen, Nortemp, Apap, Ringl
Paracetamol == drug name.
Panadol == brand name.
I never ask for a pain reliever by it's brand name as brand name pain killers are more expensive than generics and the generics are just as effective.
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In Europe all medicines have to have a code printed on the box so that you know they have been approved for sale. These codes often give them away. For example, brand names often use the same codes as the own brand/generic ones, which means that they are identical in every way. Same pills, only the packaging can vary.
Often you find that brands sell the same medicine under different names. For example, you might see a "fast relief" version and a "period pain" version, but they have the same code so they are
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We have at least one instance of that in the US - Excedrin [wikipedia.org]. Their "Extra Strength" formulation has the exact same amounts of the active ingredients as their "Excedrin Migraine" and "Excedrin Menstrual Complete". At least at Walgreens Online [walgreens.com] they charge $17.99 for 200 Extra Strength caplets and $18.49 for 200 Migraine caplets. In the actual brick-and-mortar stores the prices are usually identical. Walmart's [walmart.com] prices are the same.
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If you look up Tylenol you'll be told that it's active ingredient is acetaminophen which is only really a recognised name for the drug in the US and Japan, it's paracetamol pretty much anywhere else. So it is worth pointing out.
Re:= paracetamol (Score:5, Informative)
You really need to start taking your own advice.
Your sources come from brand name manufacturers. Of course they're going to claim generics dont work as well.
The FDA and it's counterparts in every other western country has a requirement that all generic pharmaceuticals are as safe and effective as the brand name pharmaceuticals they're competing against.
Studies have shown that generics are not only bioequivalent, but the lower cost leads to better adherence (I.E. patients "forget" to take the brand name medication more often).
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Re:= paracetamol (Score:5, Informative)
Growing up in the UK, I'd never heard of Tylenol until I moved to Canada as an adult. You occasionally hear it on American TV shows these days, but unless you know what the characters are referring to, it will just pass most people by. Even "acetaminophen" is an unknown term in the UK, it's always just "paracetamol"
Tylenol is most definitely a N. American thing that nobody else knows about. Panadol seems to be the generic antipodean headache drug - I know this because my wife is Aussie and after six years in London she's still confusing people by saying "panadol" instead of "paracetamol" :)
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Aspirin is much better for you (Score:2)
But hospitals don't stock them or least they claim not to, cause it makes the blood thinner (easier flowing) yet give one Sodium Warfarin to do the same thing - difference is Warfarin will cause you to bleed to death.
I avoid Acetaminophen, Tylenol what ever you want to call it, it's a liver killer. Consider that they mix it with codeine as a pain reliever; they would rather harm or even destroy your liver than allow misuse.
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Well the liver Is one of the few internal organs that can heal itself.
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Aspirin isn't a sliver bullet [wikipedia.org] either....
My preference is ibuprofen for head or muscle aches, followed by naproxen, and then aspirin. I'd concur with you about the liver impact of acetaminophen, I had my MD tell me once upon a time that I needed to cut back on the drinking, because of my liver results; I hadn't had a drink in over a month but had been on a regime of acetaminophen + codine following wisdom tooth surgery. That was a wake up call. :)
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Paracetamol overdose results in more calls to poison control centers in the US than overdose of any other pharmacological substance, accounting for more than 100,000 calls, as well as 56,000 emergency room visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and 458 deaths due to acute liver failure per year.
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Tylenol can cause significant liver damage with a moderate overdose, even recommended doses taken over a course of two weeks can cause moderate liver damage
The biggest problem occurs when a person takes many different medications, each of which has a normal dose of acetaminophen
I'll bet the effect is very mild. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild. (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't forget that in North America, people pop these pain killers like candies the moment their head feels a little stuffy.
That makes it a bigger deal (of course the fact that they're overused in the first place is an issue in itself)
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That's pretty much what morphine does to me. It does very little to reduce the pain, but it makes me completely not care about it. That, and throw up a lot, like most narcotics do with me. For the life of me I can't understand how people get addicted to the stuff. I'd *much* rather be in pain than feeling nauseous.
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For the life of me I can't understand how people get addicted to the stuff. I'd *much* rather be in pain than feeling nauseous.
The same drug can have radically different effects on different people. Sounds like you dont react well to morphine. Others will react differently.
My brother in law gets knocked out by small doses of doxylamine (over the counter sedative used in some pain killers) but I'm almost completely unaffected by a slightly higher dose.
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That's pretty much what morphine does to me. It does very little to reduce the pain, but it makes me completely not care about it. That, and throw up a lot, like most narcotics do with me. For the life of me I can't understand how people get addicted to the stuff. I'd *much* rather be in pain than feeling nauseous.
When I had my ACL in my knee repaired, they put mophine w/ a button I could press to deliver it when it was safe for the next dose.
I felt it didn't do much for the pain, but it did make me nauseous. I really didn't have too much pain so I stopped using it.
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I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the real measurement here is that when you feel shitty you're not gonna be as happy even if you're on a painkiller.
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I would be also interested in the number of participants, how they were divided, if the effect in dose-dependent, the statistical analysis and so on, unfortunately I have seen too many psychology papers that barely reach the P=0.5 but still are confident about their conclusions.
Tylenol does nothing (Score:2)
I'm curious. Does Tylenol actually do anything for anyone? I've tried it for aches and pains, bruises, sprains and fever and it's never had the least effect.
Ibuprofen, yes, that works. Aspirin works. Other non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, all work to varying degrees. Tylenol? Nothing.
Do any of you use acetaminophen with good results? I know hospitals give it out, but here in the States, hospitals don't really give a shit about patients' pain. They probably just give Tylenol because it has so few c
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I thought it might have helped me with a fever once. But nothing for pain.
I don't find ibuprofen to be particularly useful for pain, either. Aleve is pretty good. I had my best results with Orudis KT but I guess that was horrible or something so it was here and gone in a moment.
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More than theoretically the same, according to Wikipedia.
It's strange that one works for you and one doesn't. I don't doubt you one bit though. I have heard a lot about "bioidentical" generic drugs that work differently. I'd never heard of paracetamol until this discussion, but I live in the States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Not surprising (Score:2)
That's my experience. (Score:2)
This'll cheer you up (Score:2)
Why is there no aspirin in the jungle?
Because no-one's been able to establish a viable consumer base.
Numbing (Score:2)
Benefits Don't Outweigh Liver Damage (Score:2)
I just don't take Acetaminophen anymore. I can't say that it ever helped pain for me. Besides, it kills cats.
So, corporate life then. (Score:2)
Except in IT, of course. It's all pain there, regardless.
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And that's good enough for a lot of people.
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Than they are really out of luck as they're out double. I wanted to say doubly screwed but, it just didn't seem likely.
Re:Positive emotions are a myth (Score:4, Funny)
Well, this is Slashdot...
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You jest, but people with major depression don't feel happy after either. Somewhat relaxed, sure, but still mostly miserable. That is, what a clinical depression does to people - they just can't enjoy anything anymore.
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Yeah. I started taking an antidepressant once, and noticed a month later that I wasn't even having any sexual thoughts. The depression had hit my sex life hard enough that I didn't really notice earlier.
Re:Laugh (Score:4, Funny)
Doctor: Oh you're feeling suicidal... and so on and so on.
I'm sorry, but I don't get it. Did they manage to kill the fly in the end?
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I doubt most Americans know this. (Some do, for sure.)
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Just call it APAP, it's shorter and works in both places. Used as a pain reliever I'd also accept "placebonol", because it doesn't work.