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Biotech Science

Scientists: It's Time To Resolve the Ethics of Editing Human Genome 299

An anonymous reader writes: We've previously discussed a system called CRISPR-cas9, which is dramatically reducing the cost and effort required to do gene editing. In fact, the barrier to entry is now so low that a group of biologists is calling for a moratorium on using the method to modify the human genome. Writing in the journal Science (abstract), the scientists warn that we've reached the point where the ethical questions surrounding DNA alteration can be put off no longer. David Baltimore, one of the group's members, said, "You could exert control over human heredity with this technique, and that is why we are raising the issue. ... I personally think we are just not smart enough — and won't be for a very long time — to feel comfortable about the consequences of changing heredity, even in a single individual." Another group of scientists called for a similar halt to human germline modification, and the International Society for Stem Cell Research says it agrees.
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Scientists: It's Time To Resolve the Ethics of Editing Human Genome

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  • fathers (Score:5, Funny)

    by bigdavex ( 155746 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @07:59AM (#49300217)

    I can see fathers objecting to their daughter's suitors on the grounds that they are GMOs. They'll start to demand labeling.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by meta-monkey ( 321000 )

      "List of upgrades includes 'magnum-sized dong.'"

      Hrrrmmmm...

    • Re:fathers (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Catbeller ( 118204 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:42AM (#49300563) Homepage

      I once thought Bob Heinlein was a bit too cynical in "Friday", a world of the near future where designed humans - optimized for health, etc. - were considered subhuman ungodly creatures that were trained from birth to be subordinate to the point where Friday was trained to be a prostitute from birth. And once again, Grandfather knew his fellow Missourans well - and I must move my needle downwards again. A baby made in a back seat by two morons who can't find a condom is superior, "ethically" speaking, to a baby with maladapted genes removed.
      I'm old enough to recall the moment where the "Genetic Ethics" profession was born. I believe it was when Dolly the sheep was born, the first mammalian clone that made it out of the chute alive. The "ethics" chair was created that week, and self-appointed experts at once popped up on TV to tell us what was right and what was wrong. The nature of journalists embraces the idea of the professional expert, so these carpetbaggers hopped up to take charge.
      Most of the "ethicsists" are fundamental christian types or outright clergy, I'd guess from my Heinlein-trained cynical mind, as most media censors are. I do not take orders from them.

      • Re:fathers (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BarbaraHudson ( 3785311 ) <barbara.jane.hud ... minus physicist> on Friday March 20, 2015 @09:10AM (#49300835) Journal

        The worst part was that most of those self-appointed ethicists was that, just listening to them,, it should have been painfully the underlying objection was quasi-religious, No testing, no studies, no empirical evidence, just mental masturbation.

        Ask anyone suffering from a chronic disease if they would like the genes involved to be edited out in their offspring - there will be plenty of motivated volunteers. After all, they have first-hand experience with what it's like with bad genes.

        And yes, Heinlein was AMAZING !!!

      • Re:fathers (Score:5, Interesting)

        by GameboyRMH ( 1153867 ) <gameboyrmh@@@gmail...com> on Friday March 20, 2015 @09:50AM (#49301237) Journal

        A baby made in a back seat by two morons who can't find a condom is superior, "ethically" speaking, to a baby with maladapted genes removed.

        This. We've modified the human genome in most imaginable ways already, most often with no real aim, but the moment we do it intentionally and purposefully it's a big ethical problem?

        Reminds me of the idiots who are categorically opposed to all geoengineering.

        • Think Saurons, think SS shock troops, think of all the 'cool' things that humans have aspired to in the past (and future).

          Now, just placing ethical constraints on these sorts of experiments won't get you very far. It's not like a full blown DNA lab is beyond any villainous billionaire with a volcano (or small country with some sort of GDP).

          I suspect that in our children's lifetimes (not particularly ours, the technology is still pretty primitive and new) that genetically 'enhanced' humans will start to app

          • Using CRISPR-CAS9 you can modify an adult organism just fine. It is only in science fiction where this stuff can't only be done before birth.

            Also this technology has only existed for a few years. Originally CRISPR-CAS9 was ABANDONED by the creators as not workable. It took others to prove it worked at a genetic engineering competition. Now it has becoming the standard by which we judge other techniques in about a year.

            This stuff is moving faster than any of these prediction makers can imagine. I also have n

            • I also have not ethical problems with genetic engineering on humans.

              Do you have an ethical problem with genetically engineering an embryo and accidentally creating new problems that result in an individual crippled from birth, or doomed to a short and miserable life span?

            • I would imagine that if the scientists wanted to experiment to find what genes possibly cause Alzheimers, most people with that disease would gladly step up to be in the experimental group.

      • A baby made in a back seat by two morons who can't find a condom is superior, "ethically" speaking, to a baby with maladapted genes removed.

        Which is bullshit. What's being debated is whether it's right to make experiments who's consequences a person who can't consent to them has to carry. If your attempt to remove "maladapted genes" ends up causing early-onset dementia, what are you going to do?

        The two morons have a right to procreate. So far, every attempt to curtail that right has resulted in material fi

      • Re:fathers (Score:4, Informative)

        by the gnat ( 153162 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @12:39PM (#49303083)

        Most of the "ethicsists" are fundamental christian types or outright clergy

        The people writing the letter referred to in TFA are not professional ethicists at all - they are practicing scientists, including one of the people who figured out how the system in question works. (Disclaimer: I know one of them personally and I've had a handful of interactions with another.) If any one of them is at all religious, it's news to me. I'd guess they're totally in favor of genome editing in general, especially since several of them are involved in companies that have this goal. The ethical issue is whether to leap right into modifying embryos with an unproven and potentially unsafe technology, which amounts to experimentation on unwilling human test subjects.

    • by Hartree ( 191324 )

      We demand all natural chemical free son-in-laws!

  • I'm all for this (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dixonpete ( 1267776 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:01AM (#49300227)
    Ask anyone with Cystic Fibrosis about the morality of gene editing.
    • The fact that hereditary edits can me made, does not imply that we can immediately cure all hereditary diseases as well.

      Although, do not mistake me, I am all for it, were we able to remove those diseases from the world.
      • Re:I'm all for this (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Chris Mattern ( 191822 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:26AM (#49300417)

        Of course we can't cure all hereditary diseases at once with this. But the OP talked about Cystic Fibrosis; it's hard to think of a better candidate to use this technique on than CF. Cystic Fibrosis's genetic basis is simple and well understood. It's just one gene, which has been thoroughly studied. Editing it in germ plasm to eliminate it should not pose insurmountable obstacles.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          There are a number of diseases like this, sickle cell comes to mind as well. Watch out though sickle cell does confer +1 malaria resistance and given the warming trends...

      • The fact that hereditary edits can me made, does not imply that we can immediately cure all hereditary diseases as well.

        True but fatal, genetic diseases are a good reason not to ban use of the technique so that research on using it to cure them can proceed. However I would support strong regulation to limit it to cases where there is severe disability or greatly shortened life span. Indeed I would go as far as to say than an outright ban in these cases is unethical because of the potential to cure these diseases.

        There may be risks for the first to undergo any treatments developed but this has to be set against the risk o

        • by jedidiah ( 1196 )

          Like any tech, it's not "the science" but how you use it. Who is using it and what are they using it for?

          This tech can be used to cure people that have a death sentence, or whose current treatment options have odds like Russian Roullette or involve drugs too expensive for the British NIH to sanction.

          A total ban sounds like Bush-like nonsense.

    • I agree. There are many diseases that would really benefit from this.
      • by morgauxo ( 974071 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:40AM (#49300549)

        But we don't want the DISEASES to benefit. We want to get rid of those!

      • by arth1 ( 260657 )

        I agree. There are many diseases that would really benefit from this.

        I fear you are right, and that some diseases would benefit by our preventing other diseases. Given that our focus is usually on the "worst" diseases, on average the competition opens to more benign diseases, but there will be exceptions. And some relatively benign diseases that seems easy to cure might become a target for a genetic "quick fix" that might, unbeknownst to us, open up for other diseases.

        The interaction between different diseases and genetic "flaws" is not well understood, but we know there a

        • by jedidiah ( 1196 )

          There are plenty of far less benign conditions to worry about before we get to Cickle-Cell anemia and bespoke babies. There's an ample supply of quite willing guinea pigs that have few other options (and those options are pretty grim).

          • by arth1 ( 260657 )

            There are plenty of far less benign conditions to worry about before we get to Cickle-Cell anemia and bespoke babies. There's an ample supply of quite willing guinea pigs that have few other options (and those options are pretty grim).

            Unfortunately, I fear that there are also a supply of quite willing and rich guinea pigs who want lesser problems fixed, or bespoke babies. Unless regulated, research tends to follow the money.

    • One point is that the off-target effects have a chance of messing up other parts of the genome while repairing the CFTR mutation. We still don't really have a good handle on how bad these off target effects are, and how to control them. So, until that is figured out, I don't think it is such a slam dunk decision.

      If we can eliminate these concerns, then the decision seems rather simple in cases like CF.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        One point is that the off-target effects have a chance of messing up other parts of the genome while repairing the CFTR mutation.

        That is NOT their point. They are not saying we should hold off until technology improves. They are saying that, in principle, individual people should not be allowed to own and control their genome, and that a group of super smart elites, like maybe themselves, should decide what is right and wrong and then have the power to impose that decision on everyone else.

    • by LWATCDR ( 28044 )

      Like every technology it will be all about how you use it.
      Should the mutation that causes CF be removed from the gene pool or does having just one copy give some benefit?
      Should we take control of our evolution?
      What about people that want to order children that are super tall so they can play basketball? Or super smart. Or have big breasts?
      What about if we can remove any genetic factor in sexual preference?

      What is good use and what is a bad use? What should be allowed and what should be banned?
      Fixing DF seem

    • Or EDS. Or diabetes. Or spinal bifida. Or congentital blindness. So many, many things can go away. So much agony, so many lives saved, both that of the victims and their families. And the resources we spend to research "treatment" to be sold at ruinous profit. The miracle fairy has arrived, and they want to shoot it in the head, or at least make themselves a lucrative profession of judging, for us, what we can and cannot cure, because Jesus or whatever.
      There ain't no discussion we can have. We either do it

      • I always thought Star Trek's objection to this was a bit hokey - the episode where Geordi points out that the technology to save a colony of carefully genetically managed humans wouldn't have existed without his VISOR having been invented.

        His VISOR was no doubt based on a huge number of components that were individually created for other purposes.

        What's more of a surprise is how few enhanced humans there are around in Star Trek. The tricorder seems a clumsy and stunted way to extend the human sensorium.

        • What's more of a surprise is how few enhanced humans there are around in Star Trek.

          Well, for humans it was due to our revulsion of the practice after the Eugenics Wars, but it was unusual that they ran into so few other species that had done so.

      • by jedidiah ( 1196 )

        I'm not convinced that GMOs aren't responsible for my own rare acquired genetic disorder. Looking at the underlying biochemistry and noting how pesticides and herbicides relate to that is really quite scary.

        Again. It's not "the science", it's who is using the technology.

        Is it some monk or college professor or is it some herbicide company that wants to be the Microsoft of corn.

        Scope and scale also matters. Stuff that's being thrown into the environment like DDT is potentially much more problematic than anyth

      • The great thing about this type of genetic modification is that the anti-science left and right will get selected out of the population by, ironically, a new process of intelligent design. A century from now there might be an "Amish island" where tourists can go to look at the last of them.

    • I was thinking about a comment along these lines.

      You've summed it up in the most succinct manner I can imagine.

      Again, thank you.

  • Lord Baltimore, eh? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by damn_registrars ( 1103043 ) <damn.registrars@gmail.com> on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:01AM (#49300229) Homepage Journal
    While this time he does have a point - there needs to be an ethical discussion - he is another character who has ruffled a lot of feathers after winning his Nobel Prize. He's up there with James Watson and Kary Mullis in the realms of prize winners who some of us wish would just go away so we can go back to just doing science.
  • I don't think a resolution passed by an NGO or a couple of research groups are going to stop this. There's too much profit potential for successful edits. What would a parent pay to have a child that was free of a genetic defect? Blonde hair and blue eyes? Etc...

    • by jimbolauski ( 882977 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:26AM (#49300423) Journal
      Before you can perfect editing the genome without side effects you are going to mess things up. That is the ethical dilemma that needs to be answered who do you practice on.
      • by itzly ( 3699663 )

        First practice on consenting adults with nasty diseases that have a good chance to be cured using gene therapy.

      • by Dr. Zim ( 21278 )

        Before you can perfect editing the genome without side effects you are going to mess things up. That is the ethical dilemma that needs to be answered who do you practice on.

        Certainly! But our* corporations have a pretty crappy record of balancing ethics and profits.

        * Humankind's. No country or race has any claim to superior ethical behavior.

    • There's also too much profit for the professional nay-sayers to keep opposing it. Same as any cult where the leader needs to have a flock to fleece.
    • by Livius ( 318358 )

      I don't think a resolution passed by an NGO or a couple of research groups are going to stop this.

      It isn't necessary to stop this in order to have a conversation about it.

  • by hooiberg ( 1789158 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:03AM (#49300247)
    Even if scientists in the Western World ban human editing, there are many parts of the world (For example China; India; South America) where ethics are not always that high up the list of priorities. The technology will be used, as long as there is money to be made by doing so.

    From that point of view, we might as well open up the technology for every one to use, and let everybody handle it as he or she sees fit.
  • I know that 'genetic engineering' is something that attracts somewhat nebulous 'ethics' questions like shit attracts flies; but the concerns in TFA seem more like 'risk questions' rather than 'ethics questions'(except in the weak sense that it's very plausibly unethical to do highly risky things that will end up affecting large numbers of people if they go badly).

    I don't wish to say that there aren't ethical questions(or, if there aren't, they could be raised); but "Scientists say that germline modificat
  • There's no stopping technology, and many cases, e.g. genetic disorders, where there will little desire to do so.

    But starting the discussion is a good idea.

  • We perform a human genome modification every time we make a baby. The results are not spectacularly successful; we've an enormous number of genetic defects.

    Time to kick the dice bag away, and let humans sort it out instead of god. Modify away. No more diabetes. No more lupus. No more EDS. Let it end. Human evolution is now in our own hands.

  • Most of the fear around genetic manipulation falls around Science-Fiction scenarios. Which in order to make it entertaining they will often play with the worst case scenarios. Super soldiers, Freaky Person/Animal hybrids, etc. which to get such a case means a lot of experimentation, that would lead to a lot of dead or grossly Ill people. Such science on humans is already unethical, as your are giving birth to a bunch of people with a high chance of failure, and Illness.

    However the goal for Genetic Manipulat

    • However the goal for Genetic Manipulation in humans, isn't making someone a super human, but an average human.

      That may be your goal but I guarantee it won't be the goal of the people with the most money available to invest in this technology. Life extension or more gifted children will be their primary wants.

  • Natural evolution takes millions of years and doesn't select for traits we would find useful. It is time to take matter into our own hands. Start hacking genome. Sure, there will be numerous failed experiments and disasters along the way, but self-programming is the only way we can get better. Do-nothing alternative eventually leads to resource exhaustion and collapse of our civilization.

    Ethics? Who cares about some rigid individualist standards that are based on logically bankrupt bearded-man-in-the-sky
  • Soon it will be a sin for parents to have a child which carries the heavy burden of genetic disease.

    But not yet please. I have two issues: First, We still don't know enough to prevent unintended consquences or complications. We could edit-out one problem and accidently edit-in another.But one day, in the not-so-distant future, perhaps another generation or two, yes - definately. We should erradicate all heritable diseases.

    The second thing, I would draw the line between correcting errors/curing diseases and between creating eugenic supermen. Please no Gattica-style selection of socially prefered traits

    • Should we really eradicate all heritable disease, or post-edit the afflicted to mitigate effects?

      Like for example, the often cited benefit of being heterozygous in the sickle-cell anaemia gene. You are more resistant to malaria, a definite survival trait.

      My point is that if you reduce genetic variability by always using the 'best' gene variant, your species becomes more vulnerable to extinction due to a sudden environmental change.

      If you come up with a lot of gene variants as a patch for a broken one, all

    • We still don't know enough to prevent unintended consquences or complications

      Yes we do, the "consequences" are every human being without the genetic disease, or every human being who already has the desirable trait you're inserting. It's just like rocket science - smarter people than you understand it more thoroughly than you, and every risk you can possibly conceive of they have already considered.

      You people talk like this shit is like fucking magic, as if there is a metaphysical price that must be paid fo

    • Whats so wrong with ubermenchen??? If it's the parents choice coupled with a strong prohibition on government or business use of DNA should be reasonable.

  • I see three levels of genetic engineering:

    1) Copying DNA from one human to another.

    2) Copying DNA from a non-human into a human (or a large amount of human DNA into a non-human creature)

    3) Creating our own DNA from scratch.

    These three things are dramatically different. Set 1, modifying a human to be like another human - for example giving anyone that wants the gene for blue eyes, the gene for blue eyes, is almost within our grasp - technologically and ethically. I see no problem with allowing

    • by itzly ( 3699663 )

      1) Copying DNA from one human to another.

      As long as you don't copy the DNA of a Disney princess...

    • by Livius ( 318358 )

      modifying a human to be like another human - for example giving anyone that wants the gene for blue eyes, the gene for blue eyes, is almost within our grasp - technologically and ethically. I see no problem with allowing that at all.

      You realize that includes selecting gender, right?

  • I don't see any ethics problem with treating genetic diseases, which is where this tech will be applied first - though I'm sure that in both the more progressively-inclined and the most God-fearing parts of the US and Europe there will be a Natural Disease Coalition, led by the likes of Dolce and Gabbana, promoting breast cancer as the Lord's will.

    The ethics will get interesting when we start to see lines of humanity modified to fit extreme environments, such as microgravity or underwater. At some point the

    • The ethics will get interesting when we start to see lines of humanity modified to fit extreme environments

      Or, far more likely, to be stronger, prettier, smarter.

      • This will happen too, but in this area there will be no forced speciation. A steady drift toward choosing similarly-enhanced mates, but no specific point at which the species divides into two or more non-interbreedable groups. Instead, we will se gradual decline in the numbers of the unenhanced.

    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      Interesting. I always thought of Intelligent Design as a fake history to allow people of low IQ to continue to believe in magic, but maybe its time hasn't come yet, is all.

  • It's time to resolve the ethics of telling other people what they can and can't do with their own DNA and reproductive choices.

    And the resolution is: you can butt right the fuck out. It's none of your god damned business.

    • by sinij ( 911942 )
      Yep.

      Not only that, but "ethical" is all too often is synonymous with "what won't ever lead us to getting sued" and has nothing to do with greater good or even doing the right things for a group of individuals.
    • See, a real person is created and has to LIVE WITH and SUFFER FROM the changes you've inflicted upon them.

      Think about it. Standard reproduction, you have no control over the result except what you can do with nutrition and environment. So your liability is also limited. However, if as a result of your DIRECTED genetic change, someone lives a life of suffering, well, your liability is enormous. You controlled it and caused it, therefore, you are responsible.

      And it's a mind-blowing responsibility. If in

  • Cowards! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Graydyn Young ( 2835695 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:54AM (#49300689)
    These people want to put a stop to progress because they think humans are some kind of holy ground that must not be tred upon. Does anybody ever even consider the suffering caused by NOT pursuing gene mods?

    I have to suspect that the real reason they are arguing against mods is that suffering and dying of muscular distrophy, or cystic fibrosis, or any other horrible genetic condition, is "natural".

    Those people out there that are willing to accept the risks inherent to genetic modification shouldn't be limited by cowards that are OK with people dying, as long as they don't get their own hands dirty.

  • by Rande ( 255599 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:54AM (#49300693) Homepage

    My ethical problem would be that in the short-medium term, we don't understand what we're doing and will hurt more than we heal.
    So need a few more decades with animal testing.

    After that? Open the floodgates. Not everyone will want the 6'2" white blonde blueeyed children. I can see a market for catpeople, dogpeople, merpeople (colonise the oceans!); I'm sure there'll be one or two who want to incarnate Cthulu; wings capable of unaided flight might be difficult.
    Never worry about being the wrong skin colour as everyone will be any colour of the rainbow - or even rainbow coloured!
    Nightvision - eyeshine a reality!
    Solar powered - get a lot of your daily calories just by standing naked in the sun.
    Turn hair-growth on and off. Never have to shave again.

    People who worry about eugenics are just lacking in imagination.

  • by gestalt_n_pepper ( 991155 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:57AM (#49300717)

    This technology will be developed to the point where traits like intelligence, disease resistance, emotional stability, beauty, et. al. will be almost guaranteed. If it's outlawed in one nation state, wealthy people will just have it done in another. Their children will benefit. The poor will be at a financial AND genetic disadvantage.

    The hand wringing ethical concerns of "scientists" will have no effect on this whatsoever.

    • This technology will be developed to the point where traits like intelligence, disease resistance, emotional stability, beauty, et. al. will be almost guaranteed. If it's outlawed in one nation state, wealthy people will just have it done in another. Their children will benefit. The poor will be at a financial AND genetic disadvantage. The hand wringing ethical concerns of "scientists" will have no effect on this whatsoever.

      The question is not wether this will happen. It will, if it can. The question is, wi

    • The poor will be at a financial AND genetic disadvantage.

      Which is precisely why they'll try to outlaw it. It's the only way it will remain expensive.

  • Morality Wizards (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jim Sadler ( 3430529 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @09:45AM (#49301181)
    It seems that we have a group of people who just insist upon applying theories of morality to every little situation. We still have people protesting abortions for example. Yet none of the abortion protesters take into account what our population level would be like if we had not allowed abortions. Obviously the offspring would be a huge number and might have been such a great burden that our nation could not survive. The same thing can be said about subjects like the Civil War. Without that war we surely would have now had several hundred million extra Americans. War is not completely negative. Pregnancy is not completely positive. Weak minds latching onto an absolute position simply demonstrate the absurdity of modern life. Yet we have numerous pumpkin headed citizens that fixate on really stupid issues and just make their entire life all about pushing some supposedly moral platform. As far as the human genome goes we can store it and revert back to unedited DNA any time we like. It is simply a matter of not allowing people to reproduce who have had unwanted consequences from edited genes.
    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      >> As far as the human genome goes we can store it and revert back to unedited DNA any time we like

      Lets assume that some therapy that tweaks DNA in a way that gets passed on is later found to be detrimental. By the time we identify and agree the need to revert, the genie would be well and truly out the bottle.

      >> It is simply a matter of not allowing people to reproduce who have had unwanted consequences from edited genes.

      Nice one Adolf. This is incredibly naive, You really think the victims the

    • "if we had not allowed abortions." was solved with allowing anyone to jump the borders. Almost all new jobs since year 2000 were reported to have been taken by recent immigrants of all types. Guess what that did to downtrodden minorities in the US with minimal education and skills?

  • If you edit a human egg and wind up producing a new &/or murderous in-nonhuman species, do you have a right to kill it?

  • Show me just one example where humans have messed with nature and got it completely right.

Some people manage by the book, even though they don't know who wrote the book or even what book.

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