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Biotech Science

Human DNA Enlarges Mouse Brains 193

Posted by timothy from the what-about-vice-versa dept.
sciencehabit writes Researchers have increased the size of mouse brains by giving the rodents a piece of human DNA that controls gene activity. The work provides some of the strongest genetic evidence yet for how the human intellect surpassed those of all other apes. The human gene causes cells that are destined to become nerve cells to divide more frequently, thereby providing a larger of pool of cells that become part of the cortex. As a result, the embryos carrying human HARE5 have brains that are 12% larger than the brains of mice carrying the chimp version of the enhancer. The team is currently testing these mice to see if the bigger brains made them any smarter.
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Human DNA Enlarges Mouse Brains More

Human DNA Enlarges Mouse Brains

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  • welcome (Score:5, Funny)

    by itzly ( 3699663 ) on Thursday February 19, 2015 @02:16PM (#49089059)

    I for one welcome our new rodent overlords.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by halivar ( 535827 )

      "He dared to tamper... in God's domain..."

    • They are already our overlords. Mice are merely the protrusion into our dimension of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings. This DNA only grows the brain further into our three dimensions.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      I for one welcome our new rodent overlords.

      Well, I find it difficult to be so enthusiastic about our new Congress.

  • Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight? (Score:5, Funny)

    by robinsonne ( 952701 ) on Thursday February 19, 2015 @02:21PM (#49089119)
    Same thing as every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!!

    Does anything ever sound like a bad idea to scientists?

  • The Secret of NIHM (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 19, 2015 @02:22PM (#49089127)

    Prophecy. Pure prophecy.

  • Creepy (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Iamthecheese ( 1264298 )
    I'm not going to complain about "playing god" [wordpress.com] but this definitely approaches immoral conduct. Change this gene in something with a larger brain and you could create animals smart enough to deserve human rights. At that point the only ethical course of action is to give them said rights. The problem is the lack of a proper legal framework for such. Our science is in the 21st century but our laws are 19th to 20th. It's practically a very small step from this to sheep or monkeys.

    We need to start defining lega

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by LWATCDR ( 28044 )

      I am not to worried about this test on mice. Now if they tried it on Chimps then things get into the very creepy zone.

      • Oblig Simpsons Quote.
        Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!
        Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!
        Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!
        Oh, Dr. Zaius
        Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dywolf ( 2673597 )

        Just don't name him Caesar and mistreat him.

      • What about politicians?

      • I'm with the GP post above, we don't know enough about what makes the human brain different from our animal brethren to go around making them more like us without some kind of legal and ethical framework to deal with the results in a way that doesn't make us monsters. Look at it this way, there have been human beings that lived full, healthy lives with average intelligence and only a fraction the brain tissue that typical people have. We simply don't know what it is about the brain that makes us human.

      • Chimps are really violent, strong, and just all around monstrous. I couldn't think of a worse animal to make sapient.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by itzly ( 3699663 )

      At that point the only ethical course of action is to give them said rights

      Why? It's just a criterion that you made up.

    • Re:Creepy (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday February 19, 2015 @02:35PM (#49089267)

      smart enough to deserve human rights.

      Human rights are not based on intelligence. If they were, my brother-in-law would not be allowed to vote. Stupid people and smart people are considered equal before the law, and have the same rights to life and liberty. Even brain dead people with no hope of recovery have greater rights than chimps.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by penguinoid ( 724646 )

        Human rights are not based on intelligence.

        They absolutely are. If we met non-intelligent aliens people would have no trouble treating them as having no rights, as pets, food source, or whatever. If we met intelligent aliens we would treat them as having human rights. Similarly, we may soon have to deal with the question of what sort of rights artificial intelligence have (both computer artificial intelligence, and biotechological artificial intelligence).

        The main reasons we give rights to the very young and comatose and mentally handicapped are (in

        • Re:Creepy (Score:4, Insightful)

          by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday February 19, 2015 @06:03PM (#49091239)

          If we met intelligent aliens we would treat them as having human rights.

          Yet when Europeans encountered black Africans, they denied that they had intelligence, and did not recognize their rights. We did the same for chimps and other primates, which are far more intelligent than was recognized a few decades ago. If history is any precedent, we will give sentient aliens whatever rights are economically convenient, and then make up a post hoc rationale.

    • That would be problematic. Our notions are already inconsistent - the lowest-mental-capability humans (The brain damaged, the mentally disabled, the very young) are already far below the level of many animals on practically any scale you could come up with. It's impossible to come up with some 'you must be this advanced to qualify' definition for legal rights that a two-month old child could pass and an adult rodent couldn't. The current approach is to just assume humans are magical creatures and so deserve

    • Change this gene in something with a larger brain and you could create animals smart enough to deserve human rights. At that point the only ethical course of action is to give them said rights. The problem is the lack of a proper legal framework for such. ...

      We need to start defining legal rights for intelligent, non-human entities immediately.

      Totally not necessary:

      1. Wait until animal brains improve some
      2. Have them pass the bar exam
      3. Now the burden is on them to define and argue the appropriate legal rights
      4. Continue to improve animal brains
      5. Legal framework is now in place once they reach the appropriate level of intelligence
      6. Prosper!

    • Is growing a non-human sapient any different from building a perfect artificially intelligent robot?

      Should we be okay with those possibilities, or should we artificially limit ourselves from making such things to begin with?

      • Macroscopic animals need to act in their own interest to continue existing. Robots can be turned off for years at a time and suffer no harm.
    • I'm not going to complain about "playing god" but this definitely approaches immoral conduct. Change this gene in something with a larger brain and you could create animals smart enough to deserve human rights

      Exactly! Any day now they could make a mouse as smart as the pig I ate for breakfast!
  • I'm waiting for some spider genes and a bit of radiation....

  • The Pinky and the Brain jokes.

    Seriously, if we enlarge their brains, are they enlarging their skulls at the same time? Will we soon have butt head mice like the little aliens in Star Trek's "The Cage"? Will they be telepathic???

  • I think I can predict what would happen to the mice.
    It's like when you upgrade a Commodore 64 to a Core I7 and try to run CPM on it. They'll crash and die.

  • Forget mice - consider dogs, horses, cats, and men (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Karmashock ( 2415832 ) on Thursday February 19, 2015 @02:36PM (#49089277)

    Dogs are genetically disposed to imprint on their owners. Imagine a dog that really does understand human language... complete with grammar. Lassie, sort my mail then bring me bills and magazines.

    Consider a horse that isn't stupid. Able to know when it is needed, what it is to do, and when it is to leave. And possibly the damn things could be taught to take care of themselves a bit better so that the owners don't have to spend as much time fussing over them.

    Imagine cats that are not only bred by instinct to depopulate the rat population in the area but that understand that is why you keep them there. Possibly useful as lookouts etc in ways that they're not today.

    And then... people... perhaps this can be stimulated further in a human embryo. They've said our brains won't work much better if made larger but no one has put that little theory to the test. It is possible that a modified human could enjoy a qualitative advantage over normal humans comparable to the advantage normal humans have over chimps. And that sort of advantage is worth the swelled head and sore neck.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by digsbo ( 1292334 )

      It is possible that a modified human could enjoy a qualitative advantage over normal humans comparable to the advantage normal humans have over chimps. And that sort of advantage is worth the swelled head and sore neck.

      Didn't they do a study that showed women would give up IQ for breast size? That sort of advantage, to them, being worth a swelled chest and a sore back?

      • And I'm sure a baboon would give up some intelligence for a bright blue ass.

        Greater intelligence could mean greater capability which could mean wealth and power. And nothing is sexier then wealth and power. Young women will happily jump into bed with a diseased old man if he's rich and powerful enough.

        Beyond which, the day is coming when you might just gestate your young in an artificial womb rendering the need to woo or romance or court your mate irrelevant.

        Strange days are coming, friend.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by digsbo ( 1292334 )
          Once people can plug in and escape via totally immersive VR, only tax payers and some religious people will still bother with the real world.

          • I wouldn't worry about that. The only way VR is going to get that good is if we have full neural interlinks. And if we have that then the flow can go both ways. You can't have real VR without cyborgs. And cyborgs will be more then just VR users... they'll be drone commanders, neural programmers, and possibly mentally augmented with subordinate AIs.

            Till then... VR won't be an issue.

            A more credible problem might be people that get a wire put into their brains to stimulate the pleasure centers of their brain.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by digsbo ( 1292334 )

              You pretty much just described an electrical version of MDMA (taken in unsafe doses). I agree, it's probably more of an immediate risk than believable VR. But even visuals plus rudimentary tactile feedback plus the pleasure stimulator you describe could pretty much be "close enough" to immersive VR to put many in a state of permanent incapacity outside the system.

              I'm reminded of the Logan's Run episode with the "joy" headsets.

            • Easy to regulate. Neurosurgeons are rare enough that the government could easily track them and watch for some under-the-table surgery, and the implant procedure would be prohibitively expensive. Now, a TMS rig might work. It's non-intrusive. Aiming would be tricky.

              • You say that but you haven't considered remote surgery. The US army is experimenting with drone surgeons. A soldier carries a backpack, a fellow soldier is wounded, he takes the backpack off and places it on the wound. He then switches it on. It links to a doctor somewhere in the world that controls the drone. With the assistance of the other soldier to act as an onsite nurse, the surgeon can remove bullets, stitch major arteries back together, and close wounds. Instead of a soldier having to wait possibly

              • ""This cost a lot," she said, extending her right hand as
                though it held an invisible fruit. The five blades slid out, then
                retracted smoothly. "Costs to go to Chiba, costs to get the
                surgery, costs to have them jack your nervous system up so
                you'll have the reflexes to go with the gear..."

                The USA isn't the only place with surgeons [mylibrarybook.com].

      • When given the hypothetical 'magic option' to 'be good at math, but have a fatter ass.' a tiny percentage of women said 'yes', Likely those who already had a fat ass and would not lose the ability to get what they want from men.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by digsbo ( 1292334 )
          Hopefully, there's a lot of overlap between that group and the group that's fun to hang out with.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dywolf ( 2673597 )

        Sure it wasn't a poll of their husbands?

    • Dogs are genetically disposed to imprint on their owners. Imagine a dog that really does understand human language... complete with grammar. Lassie, sort my mail then bring me bills and magazines.

      *wag*.... aroo?... grrrrrr....

      Translation: Yaay, I can help! Wait. Nooo! Dammit, I can't sort mail, I have no opposable thumbs! That thoughtless bastard, giving me physically impossible orders! I'm gonna crap in his slippers!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by T.E.D. ( 34228 )

      Imagine cats that are not only bred by instinct to depopulate the rat population in the area but that understand that is why you keep them there.

      Massive analogy breakdown here. Cats are only out for themselves. If you could wave a wand and make them smart enough to have that level of self-awareness, it would not change the fact that they don't really care what we want. It would just give them the mental tools to be more effective manipulators of their humans. I for one don't find that an appealing idea.

      • Humans likewise are opportunists... with intelligence they learn to cooperate for mutual gain.

        A cat smart enough to know why it is kept around is one that can be bargained with... deliver this many rats and you get this amount of whatever it is you want.

        • FWIW: I just read an article about a house cat's brain being more complex than that of a dog .

          The interesting thing to me about the link is the mice were tested with the human gene against the corresponding chimp gene in a mouse brain as a control.

          We have at least one allele for brain development identified in three species. Don't you just know experiments with the human gene inserted in the monkey is the next logical step? Hail Caesar...

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by T.E.D. ( 34228 )

          Humans likewise are opportunists... with intelligence they learn to cooperate for mutual gain.

          People will do that, but it isn't all about sociopathic cooperation with us, as this implies. We are innately social creatures, and naturally seek to form groups together, even when there is no (non-emotional) personal gain. We have a word for people who cooperate with others only when it gains them something: "sociopaths".

          Dogs are that way too. Evolution crafted them to live and hunt in groups, and co-evolution with humans has further crafted them to watch and understand humans and want to please them.

          Ca

    • as smart as you are take orders/be penned up/allow itself to be slaughtered en masse for food/etc? A different but familiar Orwellian outcome ;)

    • I don't know ... there are so many people that act like they've been injected with extract of Mickey Mouse ...

    • Humans already have as big a skull at birth as is possible. Any larger and it simply wouldn't fit through the pelvis. If you want to try a larger-brained human, you'll have to get it out by caesarian.

      • A large number of births happen by caesarian already and we quite near to have effective artificial wombs. So... it doesn't especially matter.

    • Consider a horse that isn't stupid.

      This kills the self-driving car. Seriously. A sapient horse could learn the city like a London cabbie, and at your command, take you where ever you want to go.

      • It would also be very green... running on apples and cuddles.

      • Now imagine Manhattan, with 2 million horses producing a total of 60 million pounds of manure a day, 22 billion pounds of manure a year. Think of walking across the East River on the sludge thus accumulated. And Oh, the lovely odor. London would be far worse, the Thames hardly flows in comparison.

    • Dogs are genetically disposed to imprint on their owners. Imagine a dog that really does understand human language... complete with grammar. Lassie, sort my mail then bring me bills and magazines.

      Consider a horse that isn't stupid. Able to know when it is needed, what it is to do, and when it is to leave. And possibly the damn things could be taught to take care of themselves a bit better so that the owners don't have to spend as much time fussing over them.

      Imagine cats that are not only bred by instinct to depopulate the rat population in the area but that understand that is why you keep them there. Possibly useful as lookouts etc in ways that they're not today.

      You mean, imagine having slaves?

    • Dogs are pack hunters and social animals. They submit to the leader of the pack. For domestic dogs, their owner is an ersatz pack leader. Saying that "Dogs are genetically disposed to imprint on their owners" is subtly inaccurate.

  • Flowers for Algernon (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ClickOnThis ( 137803 ) on Thursday February 19, 2015 @02:48PM (#49089391) Journal

    This reminds me of the novel [wikipedia.org] by Daniel Keyes, who BTW died last year. [slashdot.org]

  • Ok, this stuff is just too creepy and fucked up. Frankenstienish. Definitely worthy of the whatcouldpossiblygowrong tag. Its just too dangerous for this kind of meddling to be legal.

    • Naw not frankensteinish at all. They didn't even use any bolts. It's more of A island of DR. Moreau kind of mad scientist experiment.

  • enlarge human ears ? If so, Disney would sue!

  • Voted #1 most realistic movie of all time, gatacca may become reality. http://news.moviefone.com/2011... [moviefone.com]

    Far from a fear of genetic tampering, bigger boobs and blonde hair will quickly devolve into less important things like health, lifespan, and more intelligence. But don't worry my non-augmented friends, while you won't be able to vote, hold a job, or hold any preferred life form rights, our kind masters still allow us to serve them. Isn't that enough?

  • I'm not anywhere near knowledgable about medicine, but if the brain is larger, does the cranial cavity grow increase to the same level?

    I wonder if there a round hole, square peg kind (big brain, small cranial cavity) of issue coming. The brains might be smarter, but they may suffer from decreased mental abilities from intracranial pressure.

  • Just another harebrained scheme.

  • Do not ask for the videos of how they 'injected' human DNA into mice. Rule 34 and all...

  • ... what I'm pondering?

  • They already have some very impressive abilities for their small brain size, and many are already natural mimics for sound. Some crow species even have tool use - and one step beyond, tool creation. Just a little bit of a boost and you might get a parrot that can understand what it's saying. The potential is there - Alex showed that, but Alex was a fluke, no other has come close.

  • Would it make the mice any smarter? Not if the humans I interact with on a regular basis are anything to go by. If anything, I'd expect it to make the mice dumber.

  • The mice will see you now (Score:3)

    by Trogre ( 513942 ) on Thursday February 19, 2015 @09:05PM (#49092069) Homepage

    That is all.

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