Ancient Campfires Led To the Rise of Storytelling 89
sciencehabit writes A study of evening campfire conversations by the Ju/'hoan people of Namibia and Botswana suggests that by extending the day, fire allowed people to unleash their imaginations and tell stories, rather than merely focus on mundane topics. As scientists report, whereas daytime talk was focused almost entirely on economic issues, land rights, and complaints about other people, 81% of the firelight conversation was devoted to telling stories, including tales about people from other Ju/'hoan communities. The team suggests that campfires allowed human ancestors to expand their minds in a similar way and also solidified social networks.
The campfire gave rise to two things (Score:3, Insightful)
The campfire gave rise to two things that permeate human society: religion and ghost stories.
Unfortunately, both are about equally grounded in reality and truth.
Re:The campfire gave rise to two things (Score:5, Funny)
And smores
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
You know, I've noticed that even though there's a strong impulse to make smores, and preparations made, it always ends up with everybody drunk and just burning the marshmallows on the end of a stick, eating all the chocolate and then running around the campfire naked before tripping over a branch, passing out and waking up covered in ticks and mosquito bites.
I've been part of so many camping trips where there was every intention of making smores and it never seems to work out.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm willing to guess that this type of situation is a lot of the science that went into the discovery the article is bragging about.
Oh BTW, been there too. Except for some reason, someone always has some fireworks and throws them in the fire because they got damp or something and we usually ended up losing at least one tent. It was safer to sleep half naked with the ticks than bundled up in a tent with shit that would keep burning- it would appear.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: The campfire gave rise to two things (Score:1)
Amazing Stories.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
I was going to say "never killed anyone", but yes, people believing in ghosts have killed people.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
I know, check spelling and grammar.
Re: (Score:2)
whats a good way to try to make an intellectual snub at someone without adding to the conversation? I know, check spelling and grammar.
Missing apostrophe in "whats" - should be "what's".
Just getting into the swing of it.
Re: (Score:3)
And nothing would match the bloodbath preceding existence of any religion, organized or not, that would be the sole reason (according to you) that you now exist (and the other hominids don't), as a product of evolution.
Why suddenly drop context?
Re:The campfire gave rise to two things (Score:4, Funny)
Campfires gave rise to story telling and conversation, leading to the expansion of the human mind. This started about 400,000 years ago [wikipedia.org], and continued until the mid 1950s, when television became widespread, and families stopped talking to each other. It has been downhill since then.
Re: (Score:1)
But here [thelancet.com] is some peer-reviewed grounding for you. [altervista.org]
Re: (Score:2)
You can find "proof" of anything you want to on the internet. That doesn't make it true or real. Religion and ghost stories are the fantasies of idle minds, and nothing more. There isn't a single tale of religion that is substantiated by facts, especially Judeo-Christian-Muslim. Oh, sure, Mohammad existed, but he was a freakin' delusional schizophrenic who convinced his followers his fantasies were the "word of God."
Re: (Score:3)
"quite good" is a very strong description to use for the Bible's historical accuracy. A more suitable description would be "rarely but occasionally gets it right".
Re: (Score:2)
The selection bias in history/archeology to match the researcher's beliefs is staggering.
History is written and rewritten by the winners. It's all bunk.
Re: (Score:2)
Many, many tales in many religious traditions are simply oral histories, eventually written down. There's quite a bit of good history there, both in stories at least "inspired by real events", and fairly accurate representations of customs and values of ancient peoples.
Re: (Score:2)
Many, many tales in many religious traditions are simply oral histories, eventually written down. There's quite a bit of good history there, both in stories at least "inspired by real events", and fairly accurate representations of customs and values of ancient peoples.
They also tend to contain a lot of superstition, prejudice, ignorance, outright nonsense, and religious/social/political spin.
(Just like secular literature.)
Re: (Score:2)
I did not realise /. predated the internet!
Re: (Score:2)
They also tend to contain a lot of superstition, prejudice, ignorance, outright nonsense, and religious/social/political spin.
It's polite to call that "customs and values of ancient peoples", no? Or don't you think humans centuries in the future will see your beliefs the same way?
Re: (Score:2)
In fact kids play this game, except they call it Telephone. So you can understand that it's entirely likely the Jesus character is an amalgam of several other virgin birth and resurrection stories floating around at the time they finally wrote it down.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
But you forget about message degradation the further down the line
I think that's just what "oral history" means. However, it's not so random as you imply, when you have a class or caste of people dedicated to accurately repeating the tales through the generations.
Of course, written language has been around for longer than most modern religions. How much got written down when, and how texts changed over the centuries due to scribes' errors and deliberate manipulation, is itself a fascinating geeky field, and quite scientific.
Re: (Score:2)
It's still vulnerable to survivor bias, ideological manipulations and political pressure.
Re: (Score:2)
But this is true of all historical accounts. That doesn't mean it doesn't shed light on history, and doubly so if we see evolution over time, as that gives great insight precisely into ideological manipulations, political pressure, and the like of centuries past.
Re: (Score:2)
But all historical accounts don't claim to be infallible word of a supreme deity.
Re: (Score:2)
Nor do most believers, but that's orthogonal to the value of religious texts as historical documents. There's nothing so crazy that you can't find someone who believes it, but at least in the West there are very few literalists left.
Re: (Score:2)
For example, take the battle of Jericho. This is an iconic story that is used as an example of the bible being a reliable history book.
The problem is that the latest evidence shows that the city of Jericho was abandoned at the time of the "battle".
Could you list out some examples of where the bible has been a reliable history book?
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
That second link has been posted here recently enough that my browser still shows it as visited. It *uttterly* failed to support the claims of the person who posted it, leaving the impression that they hadn't actually read it. Or maybe read it and didn't understand it. Or maybe read it and understood it, but thought they could get away with misrepresenting it. Who knows...
In your case... uhm... what claim about history, religion, or ghost stores do you think it supports? Merely posting a link doens't wi
Re: (Score:1)
No, my beliefs being real is what makes my beliefs real.
The link is peer-reviewed, authored-by-multiple-PhD's, published by probably the most prestigious medical journal in Europe, eyewitness accounts of direct correspondence between "religion's" claims and reality, as perceived precisely at the point when said "religion" predicts these. Note, -those in particular-, rather than random hallucinatory phenomena one might expect as a consequence of brain failure. You'll handwave this as coincidence, or have s
Re: (Score:3)
It doesn't matter how prestigious the publication is, if it doesn't actually support what you want to think it does.
Last sentence of first paragraph:
The subjective nature and absence of a frame of reference for this experience lead to individual, cultural, and religious factors determining the vocabulary used to describe and interpret the experience.
Did you actually read that far? Or are you just citing it because some authority figure told you it supports your religious beliefs?
Re: (Score:1)
And... so?
Wherever you think this means that "the vocabulary used" invalidates the experiences quantified by the paper, you are wrong.
Everything is described through cultural linguistic constructs. That's irrelevant to the reality of any given experience, and if your assertion as to what the sentence implies were what it in fact implied, there would be no reason to continue with the presentation of the study. Since they did in fact continue, we can fairly conclude that this wasn't the assertion--as we can
Re: (Score:2)
Though I think that for one of them, staring intently into a campfire might have been a contributor.
Re: (Score:2)
I could introduce you to a couple of blind people that I know...
Though I think that for one of them, staring intently into a campfire might have been a contributor.
I have a little scar in one eyebrow where my younger brother poked me with a hot coathanger while toasting marshmallows at the beach. I'm about half an inch from being blind in one eye due to a campfire.
Along the lines of: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
...which proves that the Ju/'hoan invented the door handle.
Re: (Score:2)
...which proves that the Ju/'hoan invented the door handle.
And were passingly familiar with the hook.
Will it burn? (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Slow down, cowboy! The article is about anthropology — 'social studies' — with some speculation thrown in. It doesn't have to be science, just 'news for nerds', whatever that means.
And fish are good swimmers (Score:1, Insightful)
Experience with long distance hiking (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hmmm, you only had 1800kcal/day food rationing on average? You messed up your preparation/logistics planning in that case. You can easily cook up 3800kcal/day rations yourself(plenty of nuts, plenty of fat, dried fruit, dried meat etc. Skip grains etc, by mass you do not get the same amount of energy out of them, and makes you more thirsty than dried meat and dried fruit does), something I do when I go out for 2-3 week hikes, incl ski hikes along Kungsleden in winter(and contrary to expecations, you actuall
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Early human life must have been gritty when things weren't bountiful.
With twelve hours of darkness per day (on average), and needing only eight hours sleep, they had a LOT of time in the dark while awake. Especially in winter. I reckon they must have had a lot of snuggling up time on their hands.
Re: (Score:1)
Interesting.... (Score:2)
That is interesting, please continue. Tell me s'more about these campfire activities.
Frist Ghost? (Score:2)
And then... Boo!
Ahhhhhhhhhh!
Social Networks (Score:1)
Wait, Facebook was invented around a campfire in Botswana?
Probably Al Gore again.
News??? (Score:2)
I read the same thing on a Bill Cosby album liner forty-five years ago.
And when they got home... (Score:1)
And when they got home, there was a bloody hook attached to the cave door!
Oh, and in my day we had to make s'mores out of two flat rocks, mud, and bird shit. It tasted awful and broke our teeth which absessed because we didn't have dentists and we liked it!
Storytelling led to campfires (Score:1)
There they were, sitting around telling stories to each other and someone said "Y'know, it's pretty fuckin' cold tonight."
"And dark," said another.
"Billy," said the first, "Can you form a committee and brainstorm this issue, see if you can figure something out?"
"Right on it!" said Billy. He always was a suck.
Re: (Score:3)
I think I saw your Scoutmaster on the news.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't forget beans and flatulence.
Can I get a research grant? (Score:3)
I'm not sure this is true. We need to research this further. It's only 99 percent obvious, so clearly, we need more research. Where do we apply for a grant?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The next logical step is to research the story-telling of people drinking heavily at a bar.
Re: (Score:2)
The next logical step is to research the story-telling of people drinking heavily at a bar.
But you've got to research it while drinking heavily, so you'll understand the stories from the perspective of the intended audience.
In Other News ........ (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's the problem with fish stories -- they smell and get bigger every time they are told. :-)
Correlation is not.... (Score:2)
With a fire, people are brought together as a community. There is not enough light to go hunting or engage in any other practical activity, but there is enough light to communicate with gestures and facial expressions as well as verbally. So people will engage in conversation, assuming they're not engaged in some other nocturnal activity, but for all we know they were doing that in the dark before they had fire.
Re: (Score:2)
With a fire, people are brought together as a community. There is not enough light to go hunting or engage in any other practical activity, but there is enough light to communicate with gestures and facial expressions as well as verbally. So people will engage in conversation, assuming they're not engaged in some other nocturnal activity, but for all we know they were doing that in the dark before they had fire.
Bumping into things?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Bumping into things?
There are things, and they are bumping. I guess that makes your statement correct.
Look at who tells the stories now (Score:1)
And you get why society is broken.
Old News is Very Old (Score:2)
We've known this for a very long time. Longer than I've been here even.
Croods (Score:1)
So The Croods were right?
Eyeshine, Paleo-Humans, Children & Campfires (Score:5, Interesting)
I have noticed in myself and several others an extremely strong fear-reflex to orange eyeshine. The eyes need to appear suddenly, they must be perceived as being near, and most interesting -- it seems to peak out at an ruddy orange color. Blue and green are surprising, yellow can be alarming but into the orange there is an extreme response, a silent 'snap' in the upper spine like an electric shock followed by a sensation of warmth/adrenaline response. As a kid I would shine my flashlight into the bushes as I walked at night to find cats. Countless times I caught yellow or green reflections (even up close) I'd smile and say "gotcha!" Then one night I got a shine that was a dull ruddy orange, I think it was an old tomcat with cataracts... I was riveted to the spot with symptoms described above, with great effort I stepped backward then sideways, and (though I knew it was just a cat) found myself running home.
Didn't think about it for years... until I encountered a young girl who loved Fantasia 2000. She'd watch it over and over. But as one particular moment approached she would hide her eyes under a blanket or even jump behind the couch. It was this moment [youtube.com] . After the Firebird rose up moments later she'd be fine, sitting down watching intently. I started asking around. At least one other person had a similar reaction to orange eyeshine, and several others when given a choice chose orange as the eye color they'd least like to encounter at night.
This led me into a theory. Imagine paleo-humans around a campfire. The adults exhausted or asleep from the strenuous activities of the day... but the children are alert and awake, keeping watch. They are watching for eyeshine on the fringes of camp. This makes sense because it is the children that predators are watching. Whether or not they were tasked with this duty, or even if it was an "eye game", it may be that we are descended from a successful lineage of children who kept watch at night and successfully sounded the alarm.
Before people huddled around campfires this eyeshine predator fear response could not have been so strongly tuned to orange as it seems to be. Reflected moonlight may give you a faint flash of eyeshine if conditions are right. But when you are between the fire and the eyes it would be really bright, and a predominately orange fire would reflect mainly its own color. Only with the modern electric light would we 'see' those brilliant greens and yellows. So an eyeshine predator fear response would have developed after we tamed fire. As such it might be the most recent base instinct, and because it arises from firelight -- exclusively human.
I have another theory too, it was the domestication of the canine that initially allowed us and our children to sleep through the night, leading into the elaborate REM sleep and dream cycle of modern humans that acts as a wellspring of intelligent creativity.
And it has scarcely been one hundred years since we were paced by animals. [slashdot.org]
Re: (Score:2)
domestication of the canine
In other words, the domestication of humans by the canine. They chose us, not the other way around.
The campfire is the "TV" of camping (Score:3)
No question of it, I've been on multiple big camping trips, mobile phones banned, things like that - and we just had a big big fire in the middle, sat around talking, relaxing and staring at the warm glow of logs slowly crumbling. It's incredibly mesmerising when there's nothing else to look at. Very relaxing.
Drugs or alcohol may or may not assist but are not required!
I heard "gossip" a main driver of language (Score:2)
I heard this on Facebook. He-he. Social media is just the modern technological extension of primordial gossip.
I feel more "alive" around the campfire (Score:2)
Teaching literature the old-fashioned way (Score:2)