Homeopathic Remedies Recalled For Containing Real Medicine 173
ananyo (2519492) writes "The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has recalled homeopathic remedies made by a company called Terra-Medica because they may contain actual medicine — possibly penicillin or derivatives of the antibiotic." Diluted enough times with pure water, though, maybe these traces would be even more powerful.
Sarcasm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sarcasm (Score:4, Funny)
No, it's not sarcasm! It's the gospel truth in how it works!
FREE XENU!
That's okay (Score:5, Funny)
Diluted humor is funnier to those who actually get it.
Re:That's okay (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That's okay (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sarcasm (Score:5, Interesting)
I though the idea of homeopathic water was to dilute the percieved cause* of the ailment. Should diluting a helpful ingredient be considered harmful then?
*) for very, VERY loose definitions of "cause".
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I though the idea of homeopathic water was to dilute the percieved cause* of the ailment. Should diluting a helpful ingredient be considered harmful then?
Quite so, which is why diluted vitamin C will eventually kill you.
Re:Sarcasm (Score:4, Informative)
I though the idea of homeopathic water was to dilute the percieved cause* of the ailment. Should diluting a helpful ingredient be considered harmful then?
Quite so, which is why diluted vitamin C will eventually kill you.
Only if it's diluted in enough water to drown you.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication [wikipedia.org]
Re:Sarcasm (Score:5, Insightful)
Within the insane homeopathic industry, that's correct. However, penicillin isn't always a helpful ingredient to everyone. Some are deathly allergic. So for those people it would "help" according to people who lack any cognitive function measurable by modern science.
Also relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re:Sarcasm (Score:4, Insightful)
"Helpful" is not necessarily true. It's possible to have a life-threatening allergy to penicillin.
Additionally, all antibiotics intended for human medical use are legally available only with a prescription in the US.
Re:Sarcasm (Score:4, Informative)
While at the same time you can go down to the feed store and buy the very same antibiotics, nominally for animal use, by the liter.
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Yeah, but they are not marketed for human consumption nor do they claim to contain no antibiotics.
I would not expect any animal antibiotics I buy to have a claim that they contain no antibiotics. That would defeat the purpose of animal antibiotics, wouldn't it?
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A toxin is bad for you. Therefore, less of the toxin is better for you. Even less of it is even better. Therefore by induction, diluting it down until it no longer exists should be amazingly good for you!
But basically this theory came about at the time when medicine science was already very bad. Thus a bogus theory by a charlatan was not much different from the state of the art in medicine, and probably better for you than leeches or being treated by doctors who didn't wash their hands. The only odd th
Re:Sarcasm (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that the sarcasm gets it wrong. The idea of homeopathy (as its name indicates) is to cause the body to fight against the effects of the diluted substances. So diluted penicillin would make the body fight antibiotics rather than bacterial infections.
If you believe in homeopathy, traces of antibiotics are a really bad idea to have in homeopathic medication. And if you don't believe in homeopathy, there is no point in buying the medication in the first place.
So yes, it makes complete sense to withdraw the medication that is contaminated with penicilline. Depending on the dosage, it can actually be dangerous or counterproductive to people with penicilline allergies. But even if we are talking about homeopathic traces, you don't want them in there if homeopathy is supposed to make sense.
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> And if you don't believe in homeopathy, there is no point in buying the medication in the first place.
So homeopathy is one of those things that requires faith to work? Very scientific indeed.
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> And if you don't believe in homeopathy, there is no point in buying the medication in the first place.
So homeopathy is one of those things that requires faith to work? Very scientific indeed.
So, could I in theory make a homoeopathic bomb. As it becomes more powerful the more it's diluted, eventually I could just rid the world of stupid people.
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Citation needed on your claim that smell is magic.
Re:Sarcasm (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course! Quantum effects!
Every quack claims "quantum effects" for justifying their quackery these days. Nothing new. Me is not impressed.
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I don't think the people selling this believed in homeopathy somehow.
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Re:Sarcasm (Score:4, Interesting)
Depending on the dosage, it can actually be dangerous or counterproductive to people with penicilline allergies.
I'm allergic to Penicillin (and similar *cillins), and to idiocy, so this 'remedy' would be doubly dangerous for me.
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Wait, Homeopathy is like vaccination???? Does it cause Autism?
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Wait, Homeopathy is like vaccination????
Yep.
For a long time allergists and allergy desensitization treatments were disparaged by much of the medical community because of the procredure's similarity to Homeopathic treatments and theory.
Does it cause Autism?
Nope.
Neither, apparently, does vaccination. If I recall correctly: The research claiming to show that was sponsored by trial lawyers, many attempts were made to replicate it but they all failed, the journal which published it (and, eventually, even the d
Re:Sarcasm (Score:5, Informative)
The research claiming to show that was sponsored by trial lawyers, many attempts were made to replicate it but they all failed,
Worse than that, it was shown that Wakefield (the fraud who did the bogus study) selected the children in the study because they were already showing the symptoms he was looking to blame on vaccination, then gave them vaccines, blamed their symptoms on the vaccines, and gave them painful, unnecessary tests to "prove" how harmful the vaccination was. This was all so that he could (after being paid to do so) discredit vaccines in order to promote a snake-oil "alternative" immunization method, which was also shown to be completely useless. And of course, blind to the irony, the anti-vaccine movement quite often claims vaccines are there only because the doctors are being paid off, and you should "follow the money" to see proof. (which they never actually do...)
the journal which published it (and, eventually, even the doctor who performed it) withdrew it.
Well, the journal withdrew it, yes. Wakefield didn't though, instead he himself was withdrawn, and had his medical license taken away as a result of his unethical behavior.
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Only if you believe in it.
Though I'm not sure which causes which.
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Except that the sarcasm gets it wrong. The idea of homeopathy (as its name indicates) is to cause the body to fight against the effects of the diluted substances.
It just occurred to me that this is actually kind of how vaccines work. Of course a homeopath would likely just give you a shot of diluted live virulent Ebola (lots of fun if you get some active ingredient!)
Re:Sarcasm (Score:4, Informative)
If you believe in homeopathy, traces of antibiotics are a really bad idea
Traces of antibodies are a really bad idea, period. Exposing bacteria to something that doesn't kill them teaches them to become resistant.
This stuff isn't at a high enough concentration to alter the population dynamics of any bacteria in the gut (the most likely target, there should be few bacteria anywhere else but on the skin). But the concern it the dosage would be high enough to trigger an anaphylactoid response as that system comes with a nice group of biological amplifiers as standard equipment.
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Homeopathic concentrations are so dilute that the odds are you won't get a *single molecule* of whatever the active ingredient was supposed to b
Homeopothy ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Even though it's been diluted to the point where just about every single molecule has been replaced, it can somehow remember all the good stuff it used to contain.
And yet, for some strange reason, it doesn't remember the fact that it used to contain bovine fecal matter and all sorts of other bad stuff.
That's the bit I find curious, although maybe that's where the bovine fecal matter shines through :-)
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Only works when done in a pseudo-sciency way by a homeopathic practitioner - of course.
Re:Homeopothy ... (Score:5, Interesting)
How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.
Re:Homeopothy ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Where's the little glass bottles? Where's the shaking? Where's the successive titrations? You're not applying the true principles here, just a ludicrous caricature! That's why what you propse won't work. Not because it's a fundamentally incorrect Victorian era disease hypothesis.
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How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.
Simple reason. It won't be diluted enough and thus not very potent. I mean you can't get that 1 part in 1.0x10^200 dilution by dumping a goose liver, and even if you could how would you manage to do that magic shake on an ocean full of water at once. Probably at best they could only manage a 1 part in 1.0x10^20 to 1 part in 1.0x10^30, which wouldn't be any where near strong enough, using that method.
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Even though it's been diluted to the point where just about every single molecule has been replaced, it can somehow remember all the good stuff it used to contain.
And yet, for some strange reason, it doesn't remember the fact that it used to contain bovine fecal matter and all sorts of other bad stuff.
That's the bit I find curious, although maybe that's where the bovine fecal matter shines through :-)
Fish urine.
Re:Homeopothy ... (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet, for some strange reason, it doesn't remember the fact that it used to contain bovine fecal matter
This condition is transferred to the homeopathic practitioner.
I've met a few, and the transfer is very effective.
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Re:Homeopothy ... (Score:5, Funny)
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So what happens if you make a 30x dilution of bull feces and administer it to someone who believes in Homeopathy?
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Don't forget, homeopathy is not just about dluting the substances. You must also shake or strike the mixture after every dilution, so that water retains the vibrations of the original substance.
+5 Funny for TFS (Score:3)
The subject line quite literally had me laughing out loud.
Without doubt the funniest thing I've encountered this week, perhaps even this month.
Re:+5 Funny for TFS (Score:5, Funny)
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it's all fake (Score:2)
this comment has been diluted 100,000 times to be politically correct.
First Post! Yes! (Score:2, Funny)
At least it would have been if all of the other posts before this one had been diluted enough.
Tap Water (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe "contains actual medicine" could be said of tap water.
http://www.rsc.org/chemistrywo... [rsc.org]
Wonder if there was a freak out. . . (Score:5, Funny)
I can almost hear the screams of terror when the news was announced:
"WHAT?! There's REAL medicine in this? Holy shit, that stuff will kill me!"
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Homeopathic principles (Score:3)
Shouldn't sea water be considered a wonder drug in homeopathy, because everything eventually makes its way into the ocean and gets ultra-diluted.
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Shouldn't sea water be considered a wonder drug in homeopathy, because everything eventually makes its way into the ocean and gets ultra-diluted.
Well, I hear that diluted sea water is a very effective cure against drowning.
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Shouldn't sea water be considered a wonder drug in homeopathy, because everything eventually makes its way into the ocean and gets ultra-diluted.
No. A homeopathic remedy is typically diluted by a factor of one hundred, one hundred times. So one liter of original substance would be diluted by 1e200. All the world's oceans contain about 1.35e9 cubic km, or 1.35e21 liters. So diluting with the ocean would be shy by 179 orders of magnitude.
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Re:Homeopathic principles (Score:4, Funny)
Pfft. Whatevs. You guys both missed the point which is that homeopaths "tap the bottle". That's how it works, with the tapping. Sheesh, you guys are ignorant.
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Those that get diluted get repeatedly diluted by a factor of TEN not HUNDRED.
Both Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] and The Society of Homeopaths [homeopathy-soh.org] state that the standard "C-scale" is based on dilutions of one hundred.
And this is NOT repeated 100 times, the maximum AFAIK is 23.
Nope. Some remedies go up to 200C which is 100^200 or 1e400. For instance the anti-flu drug Oscillococcinum [wikipedia.org] uses a dilution of 200C.
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Then either wikipedia is wrong or the american homeopaths do it wrong.
Re:Homeopathic principles (Score:5, Funny)
Or both.
Question: How can a homeopath do it right?
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That is wrong.
First off all plenty of homeopathic medicals are not diluted at all.
If they aren't diluted, they aren't homeopathic. Holistic, maybe.
Those that get diluted get repeatedly diluted by a factor of TEN not HUNDRED.
And this is NOT repeated 100 times, the maximum AFAIK is 23.
Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C [wikipedia.org] dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.
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If they aren't diluted, they aren't homeopathic. Holistic, maybe.
Why don't you simply google for homeopathic medicals and check yourself?
Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.
Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.
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Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate. Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.
Wait... are you suggesting that some of this bullshit actually isn't complete nonsense?
Re:Homeopathic principles (Score:4, Interesting)
If they aren't diluted, they aren't homeopathic. Holistic, maybe.
Why don't you simply google for homeopathic medicals and check yourself?
I'm well aware of the theoretical basis of homeopathic medicine, but even so I already refreshed my memory with google and a few sites both supporting and debunking it. I even included a link to wikipedia in my original. If you want to dispute my claim, provide a citation and not a "google it yourself" response.
Homeopathy is based on the idea that a substance that causes the symptoms in normal quantities cures the symptoms in smaller quantities. Hence the dilution.
Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.
Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.
Quite a lot of homeopathic products use the C dilutions, in surprisingly high numbers. Of course, there are also a number of products that use small numbers of X (1/10th) dilutions as well. The 3X-6X dilutions do result in a product that contains the active ingredient. Of course, if I started with a 1g sample of a drug, say, tacrolimus, and performed a 3X dilution on it, I'd end up with a 1mg product. This isn't homeopathy, because that is well with in the dose-response curve for that drug and the drug at that level produces a direct and specific response in line with its properties.
Re:Homeopathic principles (Score:4, Interesting)
Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.
Of course, there are also a number of products that use small numbers of X (1/10th) dilutions as well. The 3X-6X dilutions do result in a product that contains the active ingredient.
Funny example: Recently a (real ;-) doctor recommended a particular plant extract to my wife, to treat a minor skin condition that caused major itching and reddening. She found it at Whole Foods, and I noticed that it was labelled as "homeopathic", with a 1X dilution. So it was actually 10% the active ingredient.
It actually worked quite well; the problem disappeared in a few days and hasn't recurred. Checking online showed that it's one of many "natural" ingredients that can be sole OTC, as long as no specific medical claims are made.
So we might ask why they labelled it "homeopathic" when it has such a high fraction of active ingredient. Our guess is "marketing": The company that packages it wants to sell to the not-insignificant fraction of the population that believes in homeopathic cures. The doctors probably just grin, knowing that it's meaningless, but also knowing that a good number of traditional "folk" remedies are actually useful, as long as the problem is minor and precisely-measured medicine isn't required.
Actually, years ago I was diagnosed with chronic "dry skin" by a doctor, who recommended olive oil. He did explain that it really isn't a medicine at all; it just slows down evaporation and lets the skin retain more of the water it gets from deeper tissues. It worked well enough that he said real medication wasn't needed. I've used it off and on ever since, mostly in winter when indoor air is typically very dry, and it works quite well. I wonder if such plant oils are ever labelled "homeopathic", perhaps at a 0X "dilution factor". ;-)
(That doctor also joked about it being a medicine he learned from his Italian grandmother.)
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We have hairless dogs, and their skin gets quite dry in winter. Their ears can even crack, and one of them has a notched ear from it. Most of the time baby oil is enough, but we have to reapply every few days. Olive oil will last for a week or two, but I have to put it on them and then take them for a long walk to let it penetrate fully or it gets rubbed off on the furniture and bed clothes. When we go on vacation we slather them with Udder Butter, a cream dairy farmers use on chapped cattle teats. Gre
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So we might ask why they labelled it "homeopathic" when it has such a high fraction of active ingredient. Our guess is "marketing": The company that packages it wants to sell to the not-insignificant fraction of the population that believes in homeopathic cures. The doctors probably just grin, knowing that it's meaningless, but also knowing that a good number of traditional "folk" remedies are actually useful, as long as the problem is minor and precisely-measured medicine isn't required.
A "medicine" marked "homeopathic" is technically regulated by the FDA, but isn't tested for safety or effectiveness.
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That is wrong.
First off all plenty of homeopathic medicals are not diluted at all.
Those that get diluted get repeatedly diluted by a factor of TEN not HUNDRED.
Please, no-one mod the parent up, because this is disinformation or ignorance.
There are two scales used in homeopathy. The traditional C scale is 1:100 per dilution and the X or D scale is 1:10 per dilution. Both are in use.
And this is NOT repeated 100 times, the maximum AFAIK is 23.
Samuel Hahnemann, who invented homeopathy, typically recommended 30 C dilutions. That's equivalent to 60 D.
A fairly common homeopathic remedy [wikipedia.org] is 200 C (or 400 D).
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Samuel Hahnemann, who invented homeopathy, typically recommended 30 C dilutions. That's equivalent to 60 D.
That is wrong, too.
He recommended to do not more than 30C.
C dilutions are not really used anymore ... as everyone knows: they don't contain the original element anymore.
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That's six molecule per 18 grams of water.
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That's six molecule per 18 grams of water.
Less, because the homeopath does not start with a 100% concentration, but a Mother Tincture.
The MT is already strongly diluted - just like a glass of perfume isn't 100% rose leaves.
It's time to fix this (Score:3)
It's about damn time something was done to fix this homeopathic mess. Read the Wikipedia article on Homeopathy [wikipedia.org] for a moment. The thing that struck me about it is not the "diluting makes it stronger" part. Everybody knows that. What struck me is that "homeopathic remedies" are basically always prescription-only.
Why do we allow non-prescription drugs to bypass FDA inspection because they are labelled "homeopathic"? I mean, truly homeopathic drugs should not be any cause for concern, but then they should also only be taken by prescription. What we have instead is a menagerie of sham drugs claiming to be "homeopathic" to avoid drug testing. Nothing 1x or 2x diluted should ever seriously be sold as "homeopathic".
It's about damn time to get rid of the special treatment altogether. Slapping a "homeopathic" label on a drug must not be enough to excuse it from proper testing. I could understand it it was diluted 10x, but then that only applies to the "active ingredient". What we have here is a drug with an "inactive ingredient" that happens to be penicillin (whether it was intentionally added or not - and excuse me, but what part of diluting a homeopathic drug involves "fermentation"?).
Alternative medicine is one thing, but it's something else if the producers themselves mix the product with real medicine because they think it is actually snake oil.
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Homeopathic remedies are not 'prescription', if by that you mean an approval from a licensed Medical Doctor, Doctor of Osteopathy, Doctor of Medical Dentistry or Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (and some other practitioners depending on the state*.
Homeopathic remedies are approved by the FDA because some Congresscritter decided it was a good idea for the FDA to follow the manufacturing practices of these 'pharmacies'. And that is exactly what the FDA did. They found that the level of manufacturing quality w
Effective against... penicillin poisoning? (Score:3)
Diluted enough times with pure water, though, maybe these traces would be even more powerful.
According to the homeopathic principle, its efficacy would be directed at ailments caused by penicillin.
FDA, why not FTC too? (Score:2)
They were recalled for saying "no antibiotics" on the package but having measurable amounts of them in the product.
In my dream world, this should have been a joint effort by the FDA and the Federal Trade Commission.
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In your dream world you'd involve two huge government bureaucracies when one accomplished the recall without the other? I can see handing off from one to the other if they were still causing the problem and the first agency was unable to change the behavior. Maybe we should think a bit before pulling in all the coordination costs up front though when they may not be necessary.
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would the FDA be concerned about the mouldy bread in my cupboard?
If you tried to sell it by stating it had medicinal properties, yes.
Oblig. Mitchell and Webb video (Score:5, Funny)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Life imitating art again... (Score:2)
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/201... [newsbiscuit.com]
This happens all the time (Score:3)
This happens all the time, some quack alt "medicine" is recalled because it actually contains a known effective drug. Most often it is "herbal" dick pills that contain the active ingredient in traditional ED medications.
Getting on the "Recalls, Market Withdrawals and Safety Alerts for U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA)" email list can be very entertaining:
http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/ContactFDA/StayInformed/GetEmailUpdates/default.htm [fda.gov]
Many pharmacies carry these (Score:5, Interesting)
Several of my local pharmacies have "homeopathic cures" sections.
A pretty clear violation of ethics, I would think.
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My local pharmacist carries these as well. I know them fairly well and this is a source of endless entertainment on my part (I'm a 'classic' MD). They do it for money. Plain and simple.
And, to be fair, the stuff is generally less dangerous than the stuff I prescribe which fails to work a distressingly high percentage of the time.
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You can cure homeopathy?
Amusing - But Contamination is Contamination (Score:3)
The fact that an inert placebo product is being contaminated by some random active pharmaceutical is funny, true, but contamination is contamination. A consumer product is contaminated with something it is not supposed to have; and low levels of antibiotic are actively harmful, not helpful. Since a safe product is rendered measurably unsafe, it is good that this was caught. Drug manufacturers regularly demonstrate that without monitoring and regulation bad products will enter the marketplace.
clear that up a bit (Score:2)
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The review updates a previous Cochrane Systematic Review, carried out in 1999, with data from several new trials. In total, data from 15 trials, involving 1,360 people, were included. According to the results, zinc syrup, lozenges or tablets taken within a day of the onset of cold symptoms reduce the severity and length of illness. At seven days, more of the patients who took zinc had cleared their symptoms compared to those who took placebos. Ch
Homeopathic Innovation! (Score:3)
I have invented a homeopathic work-around for the concerned.
I have just discovered a way to dilute the diluted water itself! Placing the homeopathic pure water solution into a crystal goblet near a west facing window during the week prior to and/or following the summer solstice will dilute the water with pure sunlight!
Soon one will notice that the water itself has been completely diluted and is filled with the radioactive echo of the quantum entangled liquid. Be warned: You must drink the entire cup of sunlight energy & air diluted liquid; Resist the urge to take a small sip or else the dosage dilution in your body will be so powerful you may overdose on the potent hot air.
DISCLAIMER: Consult a local fire station immediately at the first sign of smoke as it may blow up your ass!
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Oblig: Ben Goldacre: Homeopathy has side effects? (Score:2)
Ben Goldacre at Nerdstock [youtube.com]
NSFW: language
Ahhh, homeopathy (Score:2)
My constant reminder how diluted and deluded must somehow belong together.
what about "2x HPUS" products? (Score:3)
Can someone explain to me why the FDA thinks is OK to label real medicine "homeopathic"? And why would a company chose to label real medicine "homeopathic", when it's likely to put off people who know that homeopathy is bunk?
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The big problem here is that they introduce a non-effective amount of antibiotics on a semi-large scale to a large flora of diseases.
This is essentially a training camp for widespread antibiotic-resistance.
You mean like what happens at industrial CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations)? Ground water near such a facility could likely have all sorts of traces of such antibiotics, and could easily find its way into products made with that water.
Closer to densely populated cities, products made with ground water or reservoir water can have traces of all sorts of potent drugs, some with very long half lifes. Most unused medicine ends up in local landfills, and the rest tends to end up in waste water treat
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Well shit. Then this is a news for everyone on the planet. I expect everyone is nerdish about some things. How about an article on the proper methods of making moonshine.
Dumbass.
[John]
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I'd be interested in that article.
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Actually, if you have an article like that, please share it, I'm sure a lot of people here would find it very interesting.
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What's the homeopathic cure for dehydration?
Probably a dilute form of something that causes dehydration. Take your pick what that is, dilute it a lot, and then drink it. Voila, cure for dehydration. Homeopathy works! [Not.]
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It's the same with food recalls and why they ask you to return these products; if you bought, say, chicken strips that were subsequently recalled due to possibility of listeria contamination (which just happened here in Canada), are you 100% guaranteed to have a bag of chicken listeria? Of course