UAE Clerics' Fatwa Forbids Muslims From Traveling To Mars 363
PolygamousRanchKid writes "The Khaleej Times of Dubai reports that a fatwa committee has forbidden Muslims from taking a one-way trip to the Red Planet. At the moment, there is no technology available that would allow for a return trip from Mars, so it is truly a one-way ticket for the colonists, who may also become reality TV stars in the process. The committee of the General Authority of Islamic Affairs and Endowment in the United Arab Emirates that issued the fatwa against such a journey doesn't have anything against space exploration, Elon Musk's Mars visions, or anything like that. Rather, the religious leaders argue that making the trip would be tantamount to committing suicide, which all religions tend to frown upon."
Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't want to go to Mars? Please by all means, keep your bullshit on Earth and let us evolved human beings make a fresh new life on a fresh new planet without you!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Shut it, Mars. We know what you did to Spirit.
Now you're gonna pay.
Re:Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:4, Insightful)
Please stop this fatwa unsanity !
The muslim word is full of stupid jerks who use religion and the beliefs of other people to serve their own agenda, while pretending speaking in the name of Islam. This is not different from a stupid christian priest who give his opinion about a a society matter, they only represent themeslves.
Re: (Score:3)
This is not different from a stupid christian priest who give his opinion about a a society matter, they only represent themeslves.
Some countries have state religions. The UAE is one of those countries.
AFAIK, all the countries with state religions have a leading religious authority that issues opinions and interpretations on religious matters.
Hence the "Fatwa committee under the General Authority of Islamic Affairs and Endowment"
It's no different than opinions issued under the auspices of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel or the Archbishop of Canterbury (head of the Church of England, under the Monarch).
This should make for some light read
Re:Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:4, Insightful)
The muslim word is full of stupid jerks who use religion and the beliefs of other people to serve their own agenda
All theist communities are like that. Actually, that's what theism is about in the first place! The sooner we get rid of this crap, the better for everyone.
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:3, Insightful)
If you move to another country and never return, did you kill yourself? Why can't we live on Mars?
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:5, Insightful)
Lack of food, oxygen, and liquid water. Maybe it will be possible someday, but not now. This fatwa was discussing doing it now, possibly as part of the one way mission to mars that was discussed, which was a complete suicide mission.
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:5, Interesting)
Again, how is this really different from any other colonization project? Look at the history of colonization in the Americas, and you'll see that many died out entirely as a result of being unprepared for the environment that they encountered. I suspect that you'll see similar results in the history of colonization into Australia, and if records existed, for pretty much any migration into areas where humans had not been before.
The general idea would be to find a way to draw the O2 out of the rust initially, and supplant that and the nitrogen we need from supplies sent from earth. Not cheap by any means, but then the colony would be working to grow plants to recover the O2 from CO2. Some water would be brought from Earth, but some would be recovered from ice on the planet. And food would be one of the other reasons to grow plants.
I'm not saying that the colony would survive. I wouldn't plan on giving even 10:1 against, but presumably we would learn things that could be applied to help the next colonization attempt. But then I'm not expecting the described mission to happen either. If it does, great. If it doesn't, hopefully another will before too much longer.
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Need bread and milk.
eom
Re: (Score:2)
Unlike [wikipedia.org] the conditions the early settlers were subjected to, Mars has a much more predictable environment, so the risk of death should be much lower. Unfortunately, with vastly improved communication today, if people on Mars die, we'll all hear about it immediately, so it'll seem worse.
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:5, Funny)
Predictable environment conditions, yes. Unfortunately, they're predicted to be "fucking crappy".
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:4, Funny)
"Mars has a much more predictable environment, so the risk of death should be much lower."
A vat of boiling oil has is also a more predictable environment.
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, why bother with the rust at all? You've got all the 98% pure CO2 you could want in the atmosphere, just pressurize it and get some plants breathing it and you're good to go on oxygen. And assuming you can find a source of hydrogen you'll have all the water you need without too much trouble. Perhaps they could somehow capture the methane plumes we've detected and burn them in the same greenhouse? If you're producing enough oxygen, turning some of it into more CO2 and water would seem to be a good trade, especially if you have a use for the extra energy produced.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Now, this is a hell of a pipe dream: there is no soil on Mars in which you can grow plants. You would have to bring it with you or produce it locally. Neither is easy. Plus, you have to grow enough plants that their O2 output is sufficient to keep the air breatheable. This means you need to plant on a big surface area, which means big greenhouses with a huge surface area through which they will leak heat (its way below 0 degree Celsius on Mars, too cold for most plants). So you need to provide a lot of ener
Re: (Score:3)
Well, I guess the main difference between colonizing the Americas (or any place on this planet for that matter) and the Mars would probably be that the settlers back then could reasonably expect that they would have air to breathe and a more or less agreeable climate that lets them survive. And they could reasonably expect to find edible plants and maybe animals to hunt, too. And as it turned out, they even found other human beings that were friendly enough to help them survive.
And STILL a good deal of them
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:4, Interesting)
Again, how is this really different from any other colonization project? Look at the history of colonization in the Americas, and you'll see that many died out entirely as a result of being unprepared for the environment that they encountered. I suspect that you'll see similar results in the history of colonization into Australia, and if records existed, for pretty much any migration into areas where humans had not been before.
Can anyone in 2014, with a straight face, write that the Americas and Australia were places where "humans had not been before"?
Such statements don't withstand the scrutiny of someone with even gradeschool historical knowledge, yet here we are having to chew on a +4 comment that forgot humans were in these places well before Europeans got it into their minds to begin displacing indigenous peoples.
Imagine a colonization trip to Mars that discovered humans who had been living on Mars since before recorded history. These indigenous "Martian" humans then sheltered and fed those of us who traveled from Earth, receiving as thanks a colonist-driven campaign to kill them and appropriate their resources AND THEN two to three hundred years later the colonizers "recalled" how exceptionally difficult it was to colonize Mars, a place where no humans had been before.
While the likelihood of finding indigenous humans on other planets is unlikely, one day our descendants may encounter extraterrestrial indigenous life forms and, with thinking like the kind exhibited in your post, would destroy those life forms, appropriate the liberated resources, and write a history that enshrined themselves as resourceful adventurers struggling to survive in a harsh "unlivable" environment.
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Well for once I agree with religious crazies (Score:5, Funny)
Come now, don't be such a pessimist, over half the humans who ever lived haven't died*, you gotta like those odds.
*depending on you definition of human. If you include homo erectus the ratio is no doubt somewhat smaller..
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Not true.
I don't know what definition those used though. But it was far from 1:1.
Re: (Score:3)
It isn't a suicide mission but rather lifetime testing. Suicide results in premature failure.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
With that logic you're committing a suicide no matter what you do
Only for definitions of 'suicide' so loose as to be meaningless.
Since when as ANYBODY has ever invoked 'living ones life taking reasonable steps to preserve and prolong in the pursuit of happiness and fulfillment' as 'committing suicide' it until you die.
Suicide is a deliberate and reckless endangerment of ones own life with life. And we're not talking "I like skydiving" or "learning to fly a fighter jet", no, the current state of the 'mars mi
Re: (Score:2)
"Since when as ANYBODY has ever invoked 'living ones life taking reasonable steps to preserve and prolong in the pursuit of happiness and fulfillment' as 'committing suicide' it until you die."
Should be:
""Since when has ANYBODY ever invoked 'living ones life, taking reasonable steps to preserve and prolong it, while in the pursuit of happiness and fulfillment, until you die' as 'committing suicide'?"
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
The probability of dying after going to mars is more like the probability of dying after shooting yourself in the forehead with a shotgun than it is like the probability of joining the army.
The difference is transparently obvious.
And here's an extremely-lengthy example of a fatwa against suicide bombing and ramming planes into buildings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F... [wikipedia.org]
Strangely, people who call themselves Islamic are not actually a hive-mind! Some are rank jack-ass suicide bombers. Others think that's
Let it begin! (Score:5, Insightful)
Cue witty jokes about blowing oneself up not counting as suicide.
But they should also forbid being born, as everyone that does will die eventually.
Re:Let it begin! (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F... [wikipedia.org]
As you might have guessed, Fatwa's aren't really laws as much as they are rules that may or may not be followed depending on whether an individual Muslim wants to.
Re: (Score:2)
Buddhism (Score:5, Interesting)
"the trip would be tantamount to committing suicide, which all religions tend to frown upon."
Hey get your Judeocentric religious world views out of here! Buddhism goes so far as to feature a story of the Buddha himself committing suicide just to feed some hungry tiger cubs.
Which is insane like all religions, but I reserve the right for their insanity to be characterized accurately!
Re: (Score:2)
Buddhism goes so far as to feature a story of the Buddha himself committing suicide just to feed some hungry tiger cubs.
[citation needed]
No, seriously. I'm a Buddhist and I've never heard of such a story. Linky, please.
Re:Buddhism (Score:5, Informative)
I assume he's thinking of this tale. [monkeytree.org]
Re: (Score:3)
Well, *the Buddha* did not commit suicide in that story or in any others of which I'm aware. The name Mahasattva means "great goodness" or "purity", BTW.
Re: (Score:2)
I know you did not write that story but it was quite stupid, they had horses, which they could have killed and given the horse meat to the tiger, it was a valueless "sacrifice."
Re: (Score:2)
it was a valueless "sacrifice."
It was of great value to the horse.
Using their own logic... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Like the man said, "Nobody gets out of here alive."
@Al Kai Da - RTFF - Read the fucking .. (Score:5, Insightful)
.. Fatwa
Stop blasting yourself into pieces, it's forbidden,
and no your chance to survive is below the mars mission.
How is this a suicide? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Choosing to live the rest of your life in a distant location is not a suicide in any way.
From the article:
âoeSuch a one-way journey poses a real risk to life, and that can never be justified in Islam,â the committee said. âoeThere is a possibility that an individual who travels to planet Mars may not be able to remain alive there, and is more vulnerable to death.â
It does sound pretty flimsy as an argument. But keep in mind that current one-way plans to go to Mars really haven't even gotten to the Power Point stage yet. They don't really have a lot of incentive to burn brain power on this. I suspect this is a nice way to say, "please don't fall for these scams".
Re:How is this a suicide? (Score:4)
It does sound pretty flimsy as an argument. But keep in mind that current one-way plans to go to Mars really haven't even gotten to the Power Point stage yet. They don't really have a lot of incentive to burn brain power on this. I suspect this is a nice way to say, "please don't fall for these scams".
I think there's translation issues, but what it amounts to is that the proposed mars journey is not only effectively one way, they're also not hauling enough supplies for you to live the rest of your life.
So rather than living to ~70 or so minimum, assuming no accident takes you out earlier, you're going on a trip with no real scientific value other than studying how you end up croaking, where your life on mars maxes out at around 3-5 years* from lift-off. You're not fighting a war, you're not dying to save others, etc...
Would the Fatwa have been issued if the proposal was 'The plan is to visit mars and come back, but we figure the odds are 50-50 that something will happen that we can't make it back, but in return we'll collect all this information that may help explorers in the future'? Maybe, maybe not. There's plenty of hazardous expeditions that Muslims have gone on without having a Fatwa issued against it - scaling Mount Everest, visiting the South/North pole, etc...
*From what I've seen of the proposal.
Re:How is this a suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
There's plenty of hazardous expeditions that Muslims have gone on without having a Fatwa issued against it - scaling Mount Everest, visiting the South/North pole, etc.
And the ISS, if I remember correctly. There were some issues in determining the direction in which to pray, but those were resolved. Wonder how that would work for Martian Muslims, though.
Re:How is this a suicide? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that the idea is that while visiting the ISS is 'hazardous', there's a lot of hazardous things out there, the religion doesn't forbid hazardous. What it forbids is outright suicide. Join an expedition to reach the top of Everest without a plan to return? That's suicide. Riding a russian rocket up to the ISS? Let's call it a 1% chance of death. Dangerous, but not suicide. For that matter, sacrificing yourself for others (war, evacuation and such) isn't considered suicide either, even if death is certain.
As for the Martian Muslims, it depends on which sect they belong to - the simplistic method is simply to pray facing the Earth, but there's something forbidding praying towards the sun(so when Mars and the Earth are on opposite sides...). Then there's the fact that they don't actually use a straight line calculation, they use the shortest route, which means using a circle route on earth... Alaskan Muslims pray pretty much straight north because of that. Also means that you have an actual direction rather than 'into the ground' while on the opposite side of the planet. But when on mars it'd likely be the retrograde orbit to reach Earth.
Assuming significant colonization of mars by practicing Muslims, I wouldn't be surprised if some leader there just declares a 'Spiritual Martian Mecca' on Mars for them to face when praying.
Oh, and there's the clarification that if you're spending more worry about which direction to pray in than the prayer itself, you're doing it wrong and that there's an 'any' option in that case. Oh, and you shouldn't change facing during the prayer, even if Mecca is going to pull a 180(start facing towards, end facing away) during that time. Figure out the direction in an expedient fashion(computers are allowed) and pray.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
By that logic, any act that has a reasonable expectation of shortening one's life is "suicide".
I think you misunderstood what I said - I said 'Translation issues' for a reason, it's not just word translation, there are cultural terms in there to be aware of. The proposed trip to Mars was a one way trip with insufficient supplies. As in, everybody would die unless some agency managed to get additional supplies and equipment to them within a relatively tight period of time(for interplanetary travel). You have a better chance of winning the lottery than surviving that.
Climbing Mt Everest and going to
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It is flimsy as an argument, especially as there's a better argument to be made.
Suppose the colonization succeeds, but only supplies can be sent, with no return trips? Due to lack of refueling capabilities on Mars this is a reasonable assumption for the next many years. Now imagine "many" is large enough that children may be born, live, and die on Mars before return trips become possible.
Now how is such a child, able-bodied, supposed to complete the pillar of Islam that is the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Me
Hold the lines (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Apparently many of the early ones.
http://www.actsweb.org/article... [actsweb.org]
Re: (Score:3)
This. Seriously - how many astronauts have ever been devoutly religious? Doesn't NASA generally hire scientists?
Most scientists believe in a God (look it up). They simply have the maturity of character to separate their private personal beliefs from their work. Not all spiritual people are New Earth creationists who believe dinosaur fossils are the work of Satan, you know.
While they tend not to give a great deal of support to mainstream religion, members of NASA are known to practice various Masonic rituals, even choosing landing sites on the Moon etc. based on numbers important to Freemasonry.
Re:Hold the lines (Score:4, Insightful)
you're confused, most Muslims and most Christians have no problem with evolution.
Fine. (Score:2, Interesting)
More space for the rest of us.
Re: (Score:2)
Only until the hard part is done, then it's not suicide anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
Someone may one day make a lot of money running ferry ships from outpost settlements to Earth and back so very rich Muslims can visit Mecca. The target market may be very tiny, but their religlin obliges them to go if they can afford it.
Re: (Score:2)
Oopps... nope... Mars mission is nothing for me... No women for the rest of my life.
Re: (Score:3)
Disclaimer; I am married to a breathtakingly beautiful Indonesian doctor lady who earns so much more than I do.
Shouldn't he issue a Fatwa against Smoking? (Score:5, Interesting)
After all, Tobacco leads to the premature death of most people who use it.
I always thought of suicide as the act of killing yourself just for the sake of killing yourself. While one might call something a "suicide mission", that is not the same as suicide, is it? If a soldier stays behind to man a turret in the face of certain death to provide covering fire so his comrades can escape, is he committing suicide?
Re:Shouldn't he issue a Fatwa against Smoking? (Score:5, Informative)
actually there already is one
http://islam.about.com/od/heal... [about.com]
Murderer (Score:2)
People should be less ignorant (Score:2)
"All religions"?!
It makes sense to study what drives the inhabitants of this planet, which is often their religion.
Irony (Score:5, Funny)
the religious leaders argue that making the trip would be tantamount to committing suicide, which all religions tend to frown upon."
Brought to you by the religion that also endorses suicide bombers, because some suicides are actually ok.
But... but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sure Iran's space progam is solely aimed at sending a missile to that school.
Re: (Score:2)
This from a religion (Score:2, Insightful)
This from a religion famous for suicide bombers.
What a shame the radicals and terrorists don't actually READ the Koran.
Re:This from a religion (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is they did read the Koran. It says non believers should be killed. Quite explicitly. Since it is supposed to be god's literal word many scholars have concluded that jihad is pleasing to him. Therefore death as a result of fighting in his name is fine, to be encouraged even.
Suicide bombing is more contentious, but only in the senses that some people argue against the legitimacy of the war and some argue that it isn't the best way to fight.
Re: (Score:3)
Funny.
The Koran translation I read explicitly ordered the Muslims to get along with the Jews and the Christians and to live in peace amongst them because they all believe in the same God.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Have you actually READ the Koran? It's basically disgusting hate literature. What do you think inspires the radicals and terrorists?
So is staying on earth (Score:3)
Indeed... (Score:2)
Another collective thinking they have.... (Score:2)
...control over the choices of others.
Israel means "to battle god". Islam means "voluntary submission to god the infinite." Christianity mean saving by sacrificing savings. Hinduism means going with the whatever flow, and Buddhism means "the awakened one". So Israel wars against Islam sacrificing Christians all with the help of Hindus while Buddhist are "many" busy practicing to be "one awake" in their slumber. And all the rest help fill in any gaps in what is going to be nuclear WWIII due collectives thin
This might be a blow ... (Score:2)
How to make it OK (Score:2)
As long as they blow themselves up when they get there, it'll be OK.
How is it suicide? (Score:3)
Its no more suicide than it is to settle in another country with no intent to return, and live the rest of your life there. The 'Mars settlers' plan on living the 'normal' remainder of their life, not just getting there to starve to death in a couple of weeks. ( sure, accidents happen but the plan is what is relevant )
Or as a Muslim you are required to go 'home' before you die?
Stupid religious fanatics. Get rid of them and the world would be a much happier ( and safer ) place.
Re: (Score:3)
Its no more suicide than it is to settle in another country with no intent to return, and live the rest of your life there.
There is a distinction between deliberately and inevitably shortening your life by some action (e.g. by going to Mars), and choosing to live your life in another country. This is about the choosing to die, not about hazard, and not about location. Mars residents can expect to live up to a year, maybe less, maybe slightly more. They have no chance of living a full life.
This Muslim is not alone in considering the current plans for suicide missions to be ethically problematic. Many of the people signing up f
The Emperor has no clothes. (Score:5, Interesting)
The Malaysian National Space Agency (MNSA) and its Department of Islamic Development held a two-day conference in April [of 2006]. They invited 150 scholars, scientists, and astronauts to discuss "Islam and Life in Space."
Five times a day (before sunrise, at midday, in late afternoon, after sunset, and at night), earth-bound muezzins call Muslims to prayer. A spaceship traveling 17,400 miles per hour orbits the earth 16 times in a day. Does that mean praying 80 times in 24 hours?
If interrupting work to pray is not possible, the astronaut may practice a shorter version of the prayer or combine midday and afternoon prayer times, or the evening and night ones.
The next problem: Where is Mecca?
Muslims on Earth face Mecca, in central Saudi Arabia, when they pray. The MNSA suggests that the astronaut pray toward Mecca as much as possible, or at the Earth in general. But if it becomes necessary, the astronaut may simply face any direction.
How does an Islamic astronaut face Mecca in orbit? [csmonitor.com]
The conference went on to discuss a broad range of concerns. To sum up: The rituals of the Islamic faith are meant to focus the believer's attention on his relationship with his God. They are not an exercise in puzzle-logic and they do not require a geometric or technological solution.
Moving on.
In January 2014, former German astronaut Ulrich Walter strongly criticized the project for ethical reasons. Speaking with Berlin's Tagesspiegel, he estimated the probability of reaching Mars alive at only thirty percent, and that of surviving there more than three months at less than twenty percent. He said, "They make their money with that [TV] show. They don't care what happens to those people in space...
Mars One [wikipedia.org]
Captain John Smith ran a tight ship and had no use for the Virginian colonist whose plans were based on magical thinking and not careful planning, adequate material and financial resources and a rigorous internal discipline.
He published a list of supplies he believed to be the minimum requirements for survival on the frontier: essentially a year's supply of all consumables and durable goods, and allowing for a generous margin of safety.
New France saw one or two supply ships a year, which may give you some idea of the expense. New France, remember, had an economically viable export trade in furs and unflinching support from the crown. Those ships would be coming, hell or high water. Other colonies were less favored.
Smith's budget has no allowance for a healthy communal and social life. Entertainment, education, religion and so on.
No successful American colonial settlement ever began with a base as small as twenty or bound to a space that is at once so physically confined and isolated. I would expect to see alcohol as a problem. I would expect to see suicide as a problem.
Re: (Score:3)
YOU might not care.
But the fact that many, many other humans DO care is a factor that you should not dismiss so quickly or lightly, Grasshopper.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You realize Muslim people aren't a hivemind, right? The people blowing themselves up aren't the ones issuing this fatwa. I presume you're an atheist... are you a "fucking hypocrite" for opposing mass murder, given the actions of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?
Re: (Score:3)
Bullshit. Point to the Fatwa against Jihad.
Re: (Score:2)
You realize Muslim people aren't a hivemind, right?
Actually, the problem is that a lot of radical Muslim terrorist haven't realized that they are a hivemind.
Islamic terrorism is a world problem that can only be solved by Muslims. Those radicals will not listen to anyone else besides their fellow Muslims.
The USA can send as many armies as it likes to places all over the world . . . but that will not stop those terrorists. India could hatch another Gandhi who could starve himself to death . . . that would not stop Islamic terrorism either. The only folks
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
The USA can send as many armies as it likes to places all over the world . . . but that will not stop those terrorists.
No it doesn't stop them. It makes them feel justified and tends to greatly boost their recruitment efforts. There's nothing quite like a foreign army marching on your soil for the flimsiest reasons (WMD anyone?) to piss off the locals. Then we have reason to send our military out there again.
From the point of view of the military-industrial complex, all of this is great for business. I wonder if we sold our old weapons to them in order to arm them first, like we did with Desert Storm and Desert Shiel
Re: (Score:2)
No, it's completely valid. A muslim who believes in peace and leaving others alone living in Birmingham has nothing more common with a Jihadist Somali suicide bomber than I, an atheist, have with Pol Pot. Being a muslim doesn't entirely define someone, nor does any religion fortunately, and it's no fairer to tar them all with the same brush than it is when extremists do it to 'all westerners' etc.
Re: (Score:2)
Fact of the matter is that when someone blows up civilians in a suicide bombing, then 49 out of 50 times they're muslim. That's a problem.
Other religions generally do not have a problem assimilating into society and identifying with it. Muslims, OTOH, bunch up in ghettos, prioritize speaking arabic before the national language, keep each other in check with regards to following the Koran (ostrasizing those who stray), and pine for the day when the world is r
Re: (Score:2)
And last but not least, muslims will claim the above is not true. But then again they're explicitly allowed to lie in defense of their religion (taqqiya and kitman). Try and remember that whenever an imam or other islamic scholar tries to dodge questions about sharia. They WILL lie in order to "smooth over" differences, and they'll feel good about it.
That's because they understand that all warfare is based on deception. No one explained this better than Sun Tzu.
Re: (Score:3)
So when these atheist dictators banned religion and went around killing those who practiced it, that was just ONE BIG COINCIDENCE and had nothing to do with their atheism?
Riiiiight. Just grow up, and realize that religion, atheism, whatever... none of those things kill. Assholes who think their way is the only way... they kill. Assholes with your mindset, only with more power and less morals.
Also Atheism is not an organized institution like religions are, so there's no one that can speak "for" atheists, that's like someone who would speak "for" people who love sunsets.
You realize Catholicism isn't the only religion, right? Most religions don't have a central authority. Any Islam
Re:"suicide, which all religions frown upon" (Score:5, Insightful)
But the fact that 99.9% of Muslims oppose terrorism doesn't seem to be swaying the terrorists.
Quotation needed. I think that you are considerably underestimating amount of 'angry Muslims' in the world.
If you would say 99.9% of Muslims aren't _actively_ involved in terrorism - sure. But oppose?
Because, again, religions aren't hive minds. Members don't really have much influence over each other, and they have even less influence over people who have already proven themselves willing to kill.
Now, this is pure BS. Religions are closest thing people have to hive minds (I count cults of dictators, like in NK, as a religion, even if it is not using world 'god'). Religons influence minds of people in extreme ways. Think about Scientists or other strange cults/sects - this is example of religion completely brainwashing the person. Bigger religions are trying to be slightly more subtle, but still, religion is probably best mind manipulation tool ever invented by mankind.
Re: (Score:2)
I would argue that religion is just a specialised form of cult.
Not really that much difference between the crowd at a rally in NK and one outside the Vatican.
NKs might be there to look good (or avoid disappearing in to a gulag), but how many that turn up to church at 10am on Sunday are also there only because of social pressure (and the fear of an eternity in hell).
Oblig George Carlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjVLJKR6g7U [youtube.com]
Re:"suicide, which all religions frown upon" (Score:4, Informative)
So when these atheist dictators banned religion and went around killing those who practiced it, that was just ONE BIG COINCIDENCE and had nothing to do with their atheism?
dictator
1. a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.
How can you have absolute power when people follow religious leaders, not you? And that claim to answer to a higher authority than you? Dictators suppress and eradicate religion because it's a threat to their power, it's in the nature of a dictator not an atheist. Sharing a religion means you are both working for the same god, you might disagree on the ways and means and goals but you're in it together. Branding it as ateists makes it sounds like we're your equal and opposite, but it's not. If two people go skydiving, they have something in common. If two people don't go skydiving, they still have nothing in common.
But the fact that 99.9% of Muslims oppose terrorism doesn't seem to be swaying the terrorists.
Are you lying or just ignorant? Here's an example from a huge study [pewforum.org] showing that just in Bangladesh is 150 million * 90% muslim * 26% = 35.2 million who think suicide bombing of civilians is sometimes/often justified. In Egypt there is another 85 million * 90% muslim * 29% = 22.2 million people and the same in Pakistan with 180 million * 97% muslim * 13% = 22.7 million. Together that's over 80 million people or about 5% of muslims that DO support terrorism. And a majority [economist.com] of the population in Egypt, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palestine and Malaysia want to kill you for leaving Islam.
Re: (Score:2)
Other than the Pope, who can (at least theoretically) speak for all Roman Catholics, I can't think of a single religion that has someone who can (even theoretically) speak for the religion.
Protestants? Nope, in spite of what your prejudices may tell you, each church is independent, and even the pastor can't speak for his congregation without their permission.
Orthodox Church? Nope. The Patriar
Re: (Score:2)
You realize Muslim people aren't a hivemind, right? The people blowing themselves up aren't the ones issuing this fatwa. I presume you're an atheist... are you a "fucking hypocrite" for opposing mass murder, given the actions of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?
The flaw there is assuming atheism is a religion rather than a state of mind.
There is no church of atheism and no holy text containing commandments; being an atheist is a self-description, a label, and nothing else.
The central tenet of atheism is that "there is no God". The central tenet of religion in general is that "there is a God (or gods)".
Neither can be proven in a hard scientific sense. In that way, the two are on equal footing to me.
Incidentally real skepticism is "I don't know". Skepticism in the form of "I don't know, therefore it cannot exist" is really just a way to avoid justifying one's own beliefs while simultaneously demanding that others justify theirs. Any actual thinking person recognizes
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
That's because culture shapes interpretations of religious texts. You cannot simply look at a religious text and, using only that, make broad statements about the religion itself.
The religion filters the text through human interpretations. What you put in is not necessarily what you get out.
Look at christianity, for example.
Re: (Score:2)
That's because culture shapes interpretations of religious texts. You cannot simply look at a religious text and, using only that, make broad statements about the religion itself.
The religion filters the text through human interpretations. What you put in is not necessarily what you get out.
Look at christianity, for example.
It's sort of like the people who read the Constitution and find phrases like "Congress shall make no law" and "shall not be infringed" and manage to find excuses for doing those things anyway.
Jesus Christ preached love, non-judgment, tolerance, benevolence, and non-violence. Yet people who claim to follow him have tortured, murdered, and persecuted others for the flimsiest of reasons. I would posit that the problem is with those people and not with the New Testament, because when I read the Bible I fou
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
wrong, mainstream ones contribute to "charities" which are terrorist sponsoring organizations. they think they are helping the "truly faithful" while getting to live a more mundane and less riskful lives themselves.
Re: (Score:3)
Why should I respect stupidity and willful ignorance? Because that is what religion is. ALL religion.
You could do it out of altruism and grace. That is, you could respect freedom so much that you don't need to always approve of what other people do with it.
If you need a self-centered reason, like most people do, there is one: you want them to respect your lack of religion, right? You had the same choice they did, to believe or not to believe. They simply chose differently. The way this works, is that either everyone has the freedom to make that choice, or eventually no one does. Because the moment y