EPA: No Single Cause For Colony Collapse Disorder 129
alphatel writes "Citing a wide range of symptoms, a federal report (PDF) released yesterday has concluded that no single event, pesticide or virus can be held responsible for CCD in North American bee colonies. Meanwhile, Europe has moved towards banning neocotinids for two years. EPA's Jim Jones stated, 'There are non-trivial costs to society if we get this wrong. There are meaningful benefits from these pesticides to farmers and to consumers, as well as for affordable food.' May R. Berenbaum, head of the department of entomology at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and a participant in the study, said, 'There is no quick fix. Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking.'"
One hole at a time (Score:5, Insightful)
Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking
But it is one less hole to worry about.
Re:One hole at a time (Score:5, Insightful)
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You don't even know what you are acting against. Yet you would stop doing what is provably beneficial today to just 'do something'. Sounds like zombie logic.
Re:One hole at a time (Score:5, Insightful)
Support for your line of thinking:
Salon: Without honeybees, we may cease to be [salon.com]
The report concludes, “imidacloprid seems to be a substance particularly ’fit for the precautionary principle’.” It cites the chemicals’ ability to harm honeybees and wild bees at minute doses and its persistence in the soil for several years. Additionally, it notes that after Italy temporarily banned neonicotinoids in several crops, reports of high honeybee mortality decreased from 185 to two.
The line of thinking to keep doing harm without testing wether bans might work, for short term profit, is frankly both suicidal unscientific.
Doing harm in the name of profit is evil.
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No shit...it's obvious that not doing anything at all isn't going to fix the problem.
Yeah, the battle cry of clueless managers!
1. We must do something
2. Here is something
3. Let's do it!
You must also think that Carly did a great job as a CEO, at least she DID something!
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"Doing something" also can include "doing a helluva lot of science and research to figure out our options.
Like what the EU has done - as an experiment. If there are many factors, why not test each one to see which has greatest impact?
Right now
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As opposed to the bee keepers, who, in all likelyhood are incorporated as well?
Always an excuse to rant against the corporations. Jeezuz, give it a rest!
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No, he's right. I'm sick of this "let's blame all of the worlds problems on the megacorps and the 1%" syndrome. It's stupid and just creates a divisive "us vs them" mentality when often times the "them" are either on your side or have nothing to do with whatever the hell it is you're fighting.
Every time somebody such as yourself goes on this tirade it makes me think of how stupid a group of otherwise at least mildly intelligent people can become, like the Salem witch trials. The boogeyman you are fighting i
Re:One hole at a time (Score:5, Informative)
I've heard of, even seen (on TV) places in China where there are no bees anymore. These are agricultural regions that were reliant upon bees to pollinate their crops.
They went to manual pollination. No shit, actual farmers spend 2-3 weeks every year, hand pollinating their crops. It only works because the average income level is comparatively low there. And let's face it, the choice was do the job by hand or get out of farming. Without outside assistance there are many plants that cannot pollinate themselves, or only do so poorly.
Not this again!!!
They were hand pollinating long before they killed off the bees trying to eradicate a different pest.
They were hand pollinating in situations there bees wouldn't have helped at all because in order to obtain high yield the crops required cross pollination between three related varieties of pears that flower at different times. They had been doing it for years to improve the crop.
Only much later did they accidently eradicate the bees, trying to save these same pear crops from a different pest.
But bringing in new bees wouldn't have helped due to the long time between the flowering of the three varieties.
They had not been relying on bees at all for years.
Read about it here. [beewatchers.com]
Lets not get our stories mixed up, mKay?
Hand pollination is also done in the US, especially when breeding new varieties of corn or apples, where its very important to know exactly what went into the mix. Its actually not that unusual.
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Not to mention, with every hole you patch, the rate that the boat is sinking at will decrease, giving you time to search for more holes and/or duct tape.
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AC gets it in one.
That it might be more expensive is moot.... more expensive food is still more desirable than no food at all.
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I know you live in your own little life and have very little appreciation to what it's like in other parts of the country or the world. But to many people, more expensive food is the same as no food at all.
Re:One hole at a time (Score:5, Insightful)
what it's like in other parts of the country or the world. But to many people, more expensive food is the same as no food at all.
Fortunately, EU countries where neocotinids have been temporarily banned, tend not to be among such countries. [bbc.co.uk]
No, not even Greece. [bbc.co.uk]
Neonicotinoids... (Score:2)
NOT neocotinids. Fuck!
Still haven't learned NOT to copy/paste from the summary.
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There was useful information included in the summary?
That's a first!
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Only when people who are better off aren't willing to share.
Wanting those who might be able to afford to help the less fortunate also starve to death because the world's actually run out of useful food altogether doesn't help.
Re:One hole at a time (Score:5, Informative)
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While in your little life, you can justify releasing toxins in our food- and water-source, causing mass-extinctions and making people sick, to get cheaper and less nutritional food?
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Your "logic" is flawed. No food means EVERYONE goes hungry, and the hungriest will die. Expensive food means that more people will go hungry, and only some of the hungriest will die.
Plentiful resources is desirable, of course.
Limited resources is undesirable. Again, of course.
No resources is a circumstance that ensures that people do not survive.
Take your pick.
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Who are they?
Srsly, I once dated a guy who had food stamps. It was quite the nice budget. It made me wonder what a sucker I was when I was younger scraping by on ramen and working a job.
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Good points.
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Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking
But it is one less hole to worry about.
True, but if it costs you $billions to patch that hole and you save no colonies due to the many other factors, that's $billions wasted. I don't think the original quote was suggesting that we do nothing, but that we be highly selective about which holes we attempt to patch.
There's a great tendency with situations like this to feel that we need to do something, randomly pick something, do it, then feel good about yourself for having done something regardless of whether you've lessened the severity of the sit
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In the history of mankind, it has never been a BAD idea to ban a pesticide.
Maybe this ban will not save the bees, but it will help humanity in the long term.
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In the history of mankind, it has never been a BAD idea to ban a pesticide.
The obvious counterexample is DDT. It got banned and as a result malaria wasn't eradicated. This link claims 50 million lives lost [discoverthenetworks.org] due to the ban since the 70s.
Re:One hole at a time (Score:4, Insightful)
You're suggesting that the only way we will ever stop malaria is to poison mosquitoes into extinction?
That's very short term thinking.
50 million lives were lost because they weren't "rich enough" to deserve our health care or research funding. It's as simple as that.
Re: One hole at a time (Score:1, Redundant)
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You're suggesting that the only way we will ever stop malaria is to poison mosquitoes into extinction?
It works.
50 million lives were lost because they weren't "rich enough" to deserve our health care or research funding. It's as simple as that.
Nonsense. The developed world doesn't have malaria now because they drove it to extinction in the wild via DDT and similar pesticides.
Re:One hole at a time (Score:4, Informative)
You're suggesting that the only way we will ever stop malaria is to poison mosquitoes into extinction?
It works.
No it doesn't (exception being smallpox) as almost always a resistant strain develops
50 million lives were lost because they weren't "rich enough" to deserve our health care or research funding. It's as simple as that.
Nonsense. The developed world doesn't have malaria now because they drove it to extinction in the wild via DDT and similar pesticides.
Actually the important thing was mechanical. Draining swamps is very effective to control mosquitoes along with judicious usage of pesticides, ideally a variety to prevent immune strains.
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In the US it's now illegal to drain swamps, because they're "wetlands" that must be preserved. Another victory for environmentalists over human beings.
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How many swamps are infected with malaria carrying mosquitoes in the USA?
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But we still have birds.
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And neither were Bluebirds, the Bald Eagle, or many other Avians affected by DDT-caused Eggshell thinning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Environmental_impact [wikipedia.org]
Re:One hole at a time (Score:4, Informative)
Not this bullshit again. DDT was never banned for malaria prevention, just every other use and is still used for indoor treatment for malaria carrying mosquitoes though I doubt they make wallpaper out of it any more. Pesticides are like anti-biotics, use them only when needed as immunity is built up in the target population which is one of the main reasons that DDT isn't used as much for malaria prevention, just as penicillin isn't used much anymore for infections.
The Stockholm convention banned DDT for all uses except malaria carrying mosquito control though they did discourage it. Currently the World Health Organization does encourage using DDT for indoor use to control mosquitoes in malaria infected areas. Press release, http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ [who.int]
And staying on topic, I had a pesticide application ticket many years ago. It was stressed to only use pesticides as a last resort, to use what was effective, and no more and one of the main dangers was how sensitive bees were to insecticides compared to most insects. Fish were also very sensitive to some insecticides and herbicides so you'd have chemicals with a low LD50 yet a high LC50 level. Toxicity can be very complex.
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But what I notice is that they retreated from a focus on eradicating malaria to treatment and prevention of infection (such as insecticide impregnated netting) during that time. Maybe the problem of eradication really was too intractable for the remaining regions (either physically or politicall
Re:One hole at a time (Score:5, Informative)
Consider the facts surrounding this insecticide.
First - it is DESIGNED to kill insects. That is it's purpose.
Second - it was approved for use based on flawed research, conducted in Canada only, in an area that had no honey bee populations to be affected. Private research, conducted by Bayer - research that should never have been admitted as "science".
Third - the colony collapses happen most frequently in areas that use this specific insecticide.
Fourth - there is data that supports the ban - Steeltoe posted a link above: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/21/without_honeybees_we_may_cease_to_be/ [salon.com]
"Additionally, it notes that after Italy temporarily banned neonicotinoids in several crops, reports of high honeybee mortality decreased from 185 to two."
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I don't really want to get into a debate about whether it is or is not a good idea to ban any particular insecticide. Frankly, I'm not qualified to argue either side of such a debate.
This is exactly why I do think it makes sense to listen to the experts hired by the U.S. government to study the issue. It appears the experts feel that banning one class of pesticide won't solve the problem. Unless you think they were all paid off by Bayer or aren't really scientists or are maybe all Canadian, there would seem
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Please note - the location of the "study" being in Canada has nothing to do with the Canadians. It was a flawed study, performed by Bayer. Canadians didn't do the study, didn't approve of the study, didn't participate in any way.
All in all, Canadians seem to be better at regulating business than the US.
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Oh wow. Excellent troll, sir. Appeal to authority and the whole nine yards.
*rummages around*
I know I've got some mod points around here somewhere.
but srsly
Unless you think they were all paid off by Bayer...
That's EXACTLY what we're suspecting.
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That reminds me of some sitcom or cartoon where the characters are lost in the desert and their only food supply catches fire, so they dump their canteen of water on it to put it out. Knee-Jerk reactions rarely work out for the best.
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But it is one less hole to worry about.
Unless in the process you punch several more holes. Now, I get your point, but I find it interesting that even the EPA is cautioning against just "plugging holes" without evaluating whether that's worth the cost or not.
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It's difficult to really read all of the meaning here. One less hole can be worse than nothing with our congressional circus.
Give the scientists some benefit of the doubt: They are not only aware of the scientific issues involved, but of the political minefield any change must charge through. Trying to focus all efforts on one issue (banning an insecticide) is relatively simple.
Even if you got an insecticide ban through, these scientists apparently don't feel it's enough. Banning the insecticide first, and
No, See, We're going too need a Villain here. (Score:5, Funny)
Jim Jones? (Score:5, Funny)
As if anyone is going to listen to him again.
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Right.
The last colony that did, didn't even have a chance
to regret it for the rest of their life.
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Monsanto does not produce neonicitinoids.
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Damnnation, I meant Bayer, not Monsanto.
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
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It's not that simple.
Some countries like Switzerland that don't have
2. Introduction of pesticide
do have
3. Bees die.
While other countries like Australia that have
2. Introduction of pesticide
don't have
3. Bees die.
HFCS used to feed the bees. (Score:2)
We had a discussion about that about a year ago.
http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/04/07/167230/colony-collapse-disorder-linked-to-pesticide-high-fructose-corn-syrup [slashdot.org]
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Switzerland is not an isolated island thousands of miles away from accidental contamination sources. It has been shown that this pesticide is spread by the wind, after which it "soaks" into the vegetation and the soil.
Complex system has multiple modes of failure (Score:4, Insightful)
News at 11...
Since Bees don't vote... (Score:2)
I told the bees that they needed to contribute to both parties if they wanted a voice in these matters.
1 > 0 (Score:3)
Patching zero holes also won't keep it from sinking, and, indeed, is pretty much guaranteed to do less to delay the sinking than patching one hole.
Re:1 0 (Score:3)
Yes, but patching the smallest hole in the boat with your marine radio instead of using it to call for help wouldn't be wise either. His point was that you need to think before you act, and he's right.
Sink the boat (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, much better not to patch any holes at all, and let the boat sink, than to risk patching a hole that wasn't leaking. Hell, maybe we should drill a few more holes, just to be sure.
There are meaningful benefits from these pesticides to farmers and to consumers, as well as for affordable food.
There are meaningful benefits from these bees to farmers and to consumers, as well as for affordable food.'
There, fixed that for you.
I think it would be better to be condemned for doing something and failing, than to be be damned for standing back and watching it happen.
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"Do something, right or wrong."
That was one of my Dad's favorite witticisms, so yeah, he would agree with you.
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boggle!
Hello, Nirvana fallacy (Score:5, Informative)
'There is no quick fix. Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking.'"
Hello, nirvana fallacy.
For those who aren't familiar, the basic explanation of the nirvana fallacy is rejecting a solution because it isn't perfect/ideal. In this case: rejecting a ban on the pesticide because there are other additional causes of colony collapse disorder that wouldn't be affected by such a ban.
Idiotic, and amazing that a scientist could utter it.
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You're conflating two different things, no doubt due to the confusing nature of the post. The quote about patching holes was from a participant in the study that looked at a wide range of factors, including pesticides and viruses, and concluded there was no single culprit.
In the midst of this the OP mentions Europe banning "neocotinids" [sic] for two years. This has nothing whatever to do with the study mentioned or the quote from the study participant. So the patching holes quote isn't suggesting we should
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nah but I agree - these articles aren't written by accident - they're is an agenda, and the agenda is on the side of the supply and production chain, and this organization is for pesticides because it is yet another product that goes into the supply and production chain. There logic isn't sensible from the standpoint of survival of the whole, just of their particular organization. It's .. corrupt and sick.
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Oh great! So they are now going to spike our foods with the same addictive shit they used to bind us to their brand of tobacco!
Re:Hello, Nirvana fallacy (Score:5, Insightful)
No Single Cause For Colon Collapse Disorder (Score:2)
This is the worst possible outcome. (Score:1)
If they at least banned one type of pesticide but got it wrong, we would have noticed it in a year or two. As it is now, we can't even trial and error a way out of this...
captcha: reactive
EPA? (Score:2)
The report seems to be from the USDA, not the EPA. There are some contributors from the EPA though.
A cop out by quasi-politicians so they look good. (Score:1)
To quote House, Bullshit, there's a cause for everthing; you just haven't figured it out, yet.
It's Obviously... (Score:2)
...a result of our failure to make timely sacrifices to the Wicker Man
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Who is really behind this report (Score:1)
Note the disclaimer on page 3. Not the policies or positions of the USDA, EPA or USG.
It is also interesting to see who was on the different work group.
Lots of academia
CropLife America (used to be The Agricultural Insecticide and Fungicide Association).
Bayer
Monsanta - directly and indirectly (CropLife)
DuPont
A little background info... (Score:5, Informative)
A little background info for aspiring entomologists. Neonicotinoids are an interesting class of insecticides. They are valued because they have relatively low mammalian toxicity but they are very effective against insects. Neonics are systemic insecticides, i.e., they get inside plants and are distributed into all plant tissues. Neonicotinoid residues found in pollen and nectar are consumed by flower-visiting insects such as bees. Concentrations of residues can reach lethal levels in some situations. Neonicotinoids can persist in soil for months or years after a single application. After plants absorb neonicotinoids, they slowly metabolize the compounds. Some of the breakdown products are as toxic or more toxic to honey bees than the original active ingredient. Honey bees exposed to sublethal levels of neonicotinoids can experience problems with flying and navigation, reduced taste sensitivity, and slower learning of new tasks, which all impact foraging ability. Keep in mind that neonicotinoids were on the market for about 10 years before colony collapse disorder was noticed.
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A little background info for aspiring entomologists. Neonicotinoids are an interesting class of insecticides. They are valued because they have relatively low mammalian toxicity but they are very effective against insects. Neonics are systemic insecticides, i.e., they get inside plants and are distributed into all plant tissues. Neonicotinoid residues found in pollen and nectar are consumed by flower-visiting insects such as bees. Concentrations of residues can reach lethal levels in some situations. Neonicotinoids can persist in soil for months or years after a single application. After plants absorb neonicotinoids, they slowly metabolize the compounds. Some of the breakdown products are as toxic or more toxic to honey bees than the original active ingredient. Honey bees exposed to sublethal levels of neonicotinoids can experience problems with flying and navigation, reduced taste sensitivity, and slower learning of new tasks, which all impact foraging ability. Keep in mind that neonicotinoids were on the market for about 10 years before colony collapse disorder was noticed.
Very interesting and I'd mod up if I hadn't already posted.
The other questions. How destructive are the insects that the neonicotinoids are controlling? How effective are the alternatives? Is this just maximizing huge profits or make or break scenario? I'm not knowledgeable on this subject.
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Just a general observation, pesticides generally work on a range of insects. Killing off the insects is probably not a wise idea given they are near the base of the food chain for many mammals.
Worst. Analogy. Ever. (Score:2)
Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking
So, we should not patch a hole in a sinking boat? That's so absurd only Congress would fall for it. WTF are you proposing we do, swim?
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Aren't these the same people who said that a rising tide raises all boats?
corn syrup? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Read an article recently that said they have evidence to suggest that feeding bees corn syrup to replace the honey that they would normally eat weakens their immune system because the honey contains all sorts of good biological things that are remnants from the plants they harvest the nectar from. Instead, we steal their honey and feed them factory produced high fructose corn syrup. Pesticides, insecticides, corn syrup.. It's no wonder they're dying....
I have no reference to show for it but I read an article last year where there was DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE (someone did a study somewhere) that "feeding bees corn syrup" was most likely one of the factors contributing to CCD.
Again, this news was shouted down with "well if you can't prove that it absolutely in all cases leads CCD then we're not gonna change our practices".
Difference between US/EU (Score:5, Interesting)
I really like how this really shows the difference between policy making in the US and the EU:
EU: maybe those pesticides are really hurting the bees, so we going to ban them for 2 years and see if it's help.
US: there are many stuff that hurts bees, but behind the pesticides are big cooperations so we rather do nothing.
"non-trivial costs to society" meaning the big cooperation don't like to take the hit on profits if there is a ban.
EPA puppets (Score:2)
Tobacoo got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Big Tobacco delayed progress with FUD for decades but where they finally tripped up is that they didn't fund research into other causes of lung cancer. By conflating the whole issue with tons of information about contributing factors and flat out admitting they were a contributing factor they could continue to this day!
If you ever came in contact with Asbestos, ate poorly, lived in a polluted city, failed to get X minutes of aerobic exercise and then smoked... (I'd love the aerobic part since smokers tend to hate aerobic exercise; I'm sure their stats would be low on that "contributing factor")
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Wrong. This is the bought dogs of Bayer for a change.
So many holes around me, I want to fill them all! (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, well, there's so many holes in this boat, and patching one of 'em takes, you know, effort -- Well, a different kind of effort than I'm used to anyway. So, I think we should just try spending all our time bailing more water -- It won't keep us from sinking eventually, but, I mean, I'm a card carrying member of the water bailer's union, and the Bucket Supply Store gives me a percentage of the sales on referrals... Meh, I'll probably be dead before the boat sinks, so, yeah. Screw the boat, just bail faster!
It couldn't be from Imidacloprid (Score:2)
A Pesticide? C'mon, that would just be ridiculous. It must be from feeding the bees high fructose corn syrup. Which probably contains....
Corn treated with pesticides that contain neonicotinoids. Bayer is going to weasel it's way out of this in typical US corporate fashion.
EPA - Dumbass Analogy (Score:2)
Rational Political Speak (Score:2)
+1 for intelligent political speak.
-10 for defending this foolishness.
There is no single cause for the bank robbery; therefore, we must be careful about accusing any single person for the loss of money because it could harm those components if we take measures against them.
If you think my logical transform is a false analogy, think about the fraudulent banks that caused the depression.
Should we worry about some peoples' jobs when we have a potentially big disaster on our hands? no. life sucks. get another
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The bee colonies under discussion are created and maintained by human beings; they would not exist without human beings. Humans made these hives for their own advantage, i.e. greed. So you're complaining about greed damaging greed.
Go away. Come back when you're mature enough to add value to a discussion of difficult human problems.