Immigrants Crucial To Innovation 463
gollum123 sends this excerpt from the NY Times:
"Arguing against immigration policies that force foreign-born innovators to leave the United States, a new study (PDF) to be released on Tuesday shows that immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities. Conducted by the Partnership for a New American Economy, a nonprofit group co-founded by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, the study notes that nearly all the patents were in science, technology, engineering and math, the so-called STEM fields that are a crucial driver of job growth. ... The Partnership for a New American Economy released a paper in May saying that other nations were aggressively courting highly skilled citizens who had settled in the United States, urging them to return to their home countries. The partnership supports legislation that would make it easier for foreign-born STEM graduates and entrepreneurs to stay in the United States. ... The study notes that nine out of 10 patents at the University of Illinois system in 2011 had at least one foreign-born inventor. Of those, 64 percent had a foreign inventor who was not yet a professor but rather a student, researcher or postdoctoral fellow, a group more likely to face immigration problems."
still... (Score:2)
haters gonna hate, no matter what.
Re:still... (Score:5, Insightful)
Lost in the demagogic hyper-bloviating is the fact that no one is really against legal immigration.
Re:still... (Score:4, Funny)
no one wants to end immigration to america, our country was built on that concept, We simply want it done correctly. like our ancestors did
Re:still... (Score:5, Insightful)
no one wants to end immigration to america, our country was built on that concept, We simply want it done correctly. like our ancestors did
Kill everyone who's already living here, throw the survivors in reservations, and strip-mine all the resources? 0_o
As a European (Score:2)
Yeah. We can get rid of our religious fundamentalists again and our criminals can go down under. Brilliant!
Re:As a European (Score:4, Funny)
Well no one ever said we were not MILITANT religious fundamentalists.
Re:still... (Score:4, Interesting)
>>>Kill everyone who's already living here
90% of the Indians were killed-off by a bacteria and viruses. The Europeans experienced the Plagues of the 400s and 700s and also the Black Death in the 1400s. The native americans did not have exposure to any of these diseases, until the 1600s and 1700s, and it wiped most of them out.
>>>throw the survivors in reservations
The Supreme Court TRIED to stop that practice by issuing decisions that the Indians did not need to move, but the slave-owning Democrats who were in charge (like Andrew Jackson) decided the Supreme Court can shutup, and moves the Indians anyway.
>>>strip-mine all the resources?
Running-out of resources sounds like a good reason to limit population growth to me (by closing the borders & only allowing legal immigrants). Else come the 2030s we won't be able to feed ourselves or heat our homes, due to scarcity.
Re:still... (Score:4, Insightful)
With that aside...I am a 2nd generation American, my grandparents were from Mexico (legally) and nobody hates illegals more than they do. I'm a pretty hard-core liberal, but when it comes to immigration policy I lean towards pragmatism. I'm a bit tired of the hypocrisy that the rest of the world shows the U.S. The Mexican-Guatemalan border is heavily guarded, and yet Mexico complains about us putting up a (ineffective) wall.
I suppose the crux of my post is, immigration is a helluva lot more complicated than the Fox News / MSNBC talking points would have us believe.
Re:still... (Score:5, Insightful)
"The Supreme Court TRIED to stop that practice by issuing decisions that the Indians did not need to move, but the slave-owning Democrats who were in charge (like Andrew Jackson) decided the Supreme Court can shutup, and moves the Indians anyway."
And this is an example of why the executive branch cannot and should not decide WHAT laws to to enforce a la cart. Imagine if Eisenhower decided he didn't like Brown v Board of Education (and he didn't) and wouldn't enforce it. These are dangers waters to wade...
Re: (Score:3)
And this is an example of why the executive branch cannot and should not decide WHAT laws to to enforce a la cart. Imagine if Eisenhower decided he didn't like Brown v Board of Education (and he didn't) and wouldn't enforce it.
Or that if a President decided unilaterally that he'd deport illegal aliens when he was good and ready, duly enacted law be damned. Oh wait....
Re:still... (Score:5, Informative)
It's true that the US policy wasn't to intentionally wipe out all the American Indians (although they certainly had no qualms about doing so), just to take all their stuff and force them further west until they had nothing to live on. This was different from the policy of, say, Christopher Columbus, who just wiped out all the Indians living in Hispaniola, or the French who generally set up trading posts along the rivers and left the Indian societies intact (which was a major reason the Indians tended to side with the French during the 6 Years War).
Re: (Score:3)
Not all slaves were African. Slavery has existed for all people of all colors since the beginning of history. My great, great, grandparents were white, German, and slaves, for instance--in Auschwitz.
Re: (Score:2)
Better yet: let's send them to fight in a civil war!
Re:still... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you are joking, we force imported people from Africa, we took Irish off the boat to fight in the Civil War for legal status, we have allowed and exploited illegal immigrants for many years (See 1980s/1990s Asian importing of illegals).
Do I wish everyone was legal? Yes. I think they can and are exploited, used as slaves, held for ransom, and paid small and illegal wages because of their status.
To top that all off, if you increase your immigration without control, you will soon find yourself in a situation where food is not highly available, resources are strained, and governments can collapse. There are cases in history where this has happened.
So... if you want to tie it up into a neat little package of "racism" or "prejudice" you are dead wrong and highly uneducated about the issue.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
>>>You're really just trying to keep the poor people out.
And?
It's our home. We have just as much right to keep people out, as we do to shoot someone who tries to break into our living rooms. (Of course it you think illegal entrance is a-okay, maybe I'll come put a tent in your living room later tonight. I need a place to sleep. Oh and some free food. Thanks.)
Re: (Score:3)
More people need to understand this view.
People will do what people want to do. You cannot stop people from doing what they will do, but you can regulate it. If you make it illegal, you will create criminals. Criminals benefit nobody (but the prison owners). You need to regulate it so that it benefits everyone.
People want alcohol. We banned it (the prohibition). People continued to drink, but they did so illegally, and crime flourished.
People want drugs. We banned it (the drug war). People continue to do dr
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Lost in the demagogic hyper-bloviating is the fact that no one is really against legal immigration.
Lots of people are. That's why the quotas are so drastically small. My step-father rants all the time about Mexicans diluting our superior culture. Why don't we raise the quota of Mexican 100x? I bet we'd have very few illegals then, but that's not what you want is it?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you really that naive? If people only cared about the legal status of immigrants, then we could pass a bill to legalize every immigrant and please everyone. The fact that conservatives refuse every opportunity to make legal immigration easier proves that it's not the legality at all that's the issue.
Re: (Score:3)
Legal immigrants have passed through a series of filters that ensures they a) have marketable skills that are in demand b) are able to support themselves or have someone to support them until they are established and c) are not criminals.
Making everyone here magically become legal is tantamount to not having immigrating laws at all, which is tantamount to not having borders.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:still...POPULATION BIOLOGY! (Score:2)
Diversity within a culture allows for more, and usually better, ADAPTATION. That's what societal, enterprise, and individual sustainability is really all about - i.e. it's about adaptation.
That said, this is a complex topic. We are not generating enough indigenous intellectual diversity because our education system needs a rehaul, or a completely new re-start. This probably won't happen, so we import the necessary diversity. This is one of America's strengths.
All that aside, I think it's abominable tha
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Conflating the two causes an intellectually dishonest debate. Period.
Re:Show ID, get a medical screening, ... (Score:5, Informative)
Legal: Someone shows up at the border (perhaps after waiting "in line" to emigrate and/or get their paperwork) and meets with an immigration official. They show their ID, get a medical screening for contagious disease, etc ... You know, the sort of stuff that happened at Ellis Island and other locations for many decades.
Wow.. its clear to me that you've never actually gone through the legal immigration process. It is much worse than you paint it out to be. At best, you'll get treating with disrespect, dismisive attitude, rudeness, made to wait entire days in line, etc.. I speak from experience as a US citizen who had to get a visa for his wife.
At worse, well.. there's no end to how bad they can and do treat people when all they are wanting to do is go on with their life.
Even then, legal immigrants or legal visitors to the US get treated like Al Qaeda every by unprofessional TSA types, and rude immigration officials at the border.
Re: (Score:2)
At best, you'll get treating with disrespect, dismisive attitude, rudeness, made to wait entire days in line, etc
Its part of the acclimation process... civil servants treat native born pretty much the same way here.
Wait until your first run in with a police officer or TSA agent. Talk about delusions of grandeur!
Re: (Score:3)
At best, you'll get treating with disrespect, dismisive attitude, rudeness, made to wait entire days in line, etc.
Are you sure you haven't mistaken immigration for the DMV?
Re: (Score:3)
I have run the whole gamut (H1-B1 -> green card -> citizenship) and I have never had to wait in line for more than an hour or so. In general, the agents have been polite. The
Re: (Score:3)
Well, my experience was from an overseas embassy.. not from within the US. Maybe there's a difference there.
LEGAL IMMIGRATION DOES NOT EXIST (Score:5, Informative)
Ok, my subject is hyperbole. But anyone who has ever tried to legally immigrate or help a foreign friend try to move to the US knows that it simply isn't possible for the vast majority of people.
I will be brief and concise.
There is no "line." Illegals cannot get in the back of the "line" because the "line" does not exist.
The Green Card lottery [wikipedia.org] is biased against the best countries. Ok, that's not exactly how it works in theory, but that's kind of what happens. Example: In 2012, Japan was awarded 435 visas and Nigera 6,204.
You can't come to the US just because you want to. You can't come regardless of whether or not you have the means to support yourself. You can't come regardless of your education level or English-speaking ability. You can't even come if one of your family members is already here--you must be the direct blood relative of a US citizen, a non-citizen permanent resident sibling is, for instance, not good enough (and becoming a citizen takes decades).
Almost the only way to immigrate (outside of political asylum) is through the arduous and exploitative higher education route. We, the American people, will spend hundreds of millions of our tax dollars to educate foreign students at the best universities in the world. Upon graduation from a prestigious American school with American knowledge, they either must get a job immediately (not easy in these economic times) or get out. Often times, they do get out, and they start those companies which are now out-competing us on the world stage. For instance, I challenge you to find a foreign technology company whose CEO doesn't have a Ph.D. from a California university. Now, assuming that the student is really, really dedicated to staying in the US, there are still substantial roadblocks to them staying here. Firstly, the paperwork for hiring a foreigner is insane. It's insane enough that really the only places that foreign-born U.S. graduates can work are universities, oil companies, or huge technology companies. Any smaller companies can't afford to figure out the legal mess required to figure out the visas, nor can they accept the risk that they'll hire a foreigner and their visa will be denied. The other issue is that if the foreigner doesn't keep their job, they will be deported. They have limited job prospects in the first place due to the visa and legal regulations, and the employers know it. The employers almost universally abuse these people because they know that their only chance to get a green card is to stay employed, the green card process is restarted if they change jobs, and they know that the foreigner wants a green card. So they can overwork and underpay them because they know the foreigner won't quit until they get their green card.
I have tried to figure out legal avenues for some friends in Japan. They have college degrees, speak near-perfect English, and have a passion for America and its culture. Nevertheless, we could not find a route for them to work in the US, so they remain in Japan.
Re: (Score:3)
Almost the only way to immigrate (outside of political asylum) is through the arduous and exploitative higher education route.
Huh?
1. Get a job in a company that is willing to sponsor you for an H1-B.
2. Once in the country and working, apply for a green card as soon as possible.
3. Get your green card, wait 5 years, and apply for citizenship.
It's very lengthy, I agree; much more so than other countries that are lucrative from an immigration perspective (e.g. Canada and Australia). But not impossible.
I have never talked to a foreign national who has graduated and found a job that hasn't run into all of the following problems.
1. Small companies don't hire foreign nationals because the the paperwork and red tape for sponsoring them is arduous, and because H1-B visas are limited (and much of those are taken by technology and computer companies), they can't afford to invest time and money into somebody that may be rejected from getting a visa through no fault of their own.
2. Once you do get a job at a unive
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Bullshit!
Sorry.. I am fine with legal immigration but I can't stand amnesty. No matter what they have done after getting here their entire stay is predicated on an illegal act. I can't overlook that. The best we should do is *not* throw them in jail. They shouldn't be in the line until they return home because there are thousands or MILLIONS that did the right thing and did not break the law. Yeah they had kids... well tough darts.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
What hate? (Score:3)
Though I have heard that legal immigrants frequently get jerked around by the system. I've heard nothing but sy
Re:What hate? (Score:4, Informative)
I have never once seen an ounce of hostility toward legal immigrants in my life.
I have, many times. And i would be surprised if you actually haven't. A lot of it takes the form of racism. I've heard people told "go back to ________". There are numerous immigrant small business owners who suffer abuse solely because they are (or are perceived to be) not native americans. The stereotype is Korean store owners in non Korean communities, who are purportedly prime targets, especially when things start to go bad.
Not so much... (Score:5, Informative)
I think the majority of US citizens are very welcoming of legal immigrants that come here and (hopefully) want to become American citizens...and meld into our culture.
We're especially welcoming of legal, documented immigrants that have education and skills.
I think for the most part, the main thing we care about for our immigrants...is to just sign the fucking guest book on they way in....you know?
Re:Not so much... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think for the most part, the main thing we care about for our immigrants...is to just sign the fucking guest book on they way in....you know?
If only "just signing the guestbook" was as simple as it sounds. Go look up the actual process and you'll find out really quick why some people avoid the legal route: It's loaded with bureaucratic red tape & bullshit and, in the cases of some key foreign nations that supply many of our legals and illegals, chocked full of corruption right down to the bottom level of officials.
I appreciate those who go through all of that to do it the legal way, but the reality of illegals is similar to the whining about free markets: Gov't regulation is making it hard for many to play fairly, so many just break the rules and pay for it when they get caught.
Re: (Score:2)
Your post is the true source of hate; you don't like someone's argument so you revert to grade school name calling ("haters!"). In an era of ever-increasing oil prices & food prices, it makes logical sense for the U.S. (or EU or China or any country) to try and stabilize the population at a sustainable level to make the coming crisis less painful. Hell even the UN is currently holding meetings about how to stop population growth - does that make them haters?
Re:still... (Score:4, Insightful)
You seem to be unaware that the populations of both the EU and the USA are increasing solely because of immigration. Birthrates in the USA and EU are already below replacement rates.
Theoretically, China is also already into permanent population decline, but it's unclear to what extent the One Child Per Family laws are ignored/bypassed....
Re:still... (Score:4, Funny)
I hate hater haters.
I love hater haters because i hate haters.
When we invite or grant safe haven to ... (Score:3)
... those who already are highly educated and working on something, we benefit at the loss to other countries.
Re: (Score:2)
- Lower quality primary and secondary school systems (less funding, less parent engagement, teachers being treated as communist enemies, etc)
- Universities that get more prestige and money for having foreign undergrad and grad students (who tend to be cream-of-the-crop and harder working, something that cutting-edge researchers want)
This isn't a bash on immigrants; it's a bash on ourselves.
So bottom line... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
And patent count is no measure of innovation.
Re: (Score:2)
Mkay.
My Take (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't have any problems with people going through to correct immigration process to come to the "land of opportunity".
If somebody from another country want to immigrate to the US to better their education or persue better opportunities, the i fully support you as long as you go through the correct process of obtaining a visa and or citizenship.
My beef is with the illegal immigrants that sneak into the country, work under the table and not pay their fair share of taxes, and then get government assistance and benefits at the tax payers expense.
If you want to come to the US, then GREAT! i think that's wonderful!..... Just do it legally and pay your taxes like everybody else.
Re:My Take (Score:5, Insightful)
this is always confusing to me. People here illegally live somewhere. They have to at least pay rent, and at some point, the landlord or property owner is paying property taxes. This funds local government and schools, and seems to me that is just as much of a contribution to those as any other non-home-owning tenant. Also, working does often require a tax id or ssn. These are often forged or stolen for illegal workers. There is tax paid on the money earned, but it is credited to someone else who actually owns the ID being used. The illegal immigrant will never recoup the social security paid in this way.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
every morning there is a group of around 20-30 illegals standing outside of lowes and home depot, they wait until someone drives up, points to them and says wanna make a few bucks, than they go, start hammering or doing other things that high school students should be doing to learn a hard days work, They dont pay taxes on the money cause they get paid around 80 bucks a day cash off the books. Than they send around 60 of that back to mexico, ta
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
exactly.
Everyone in the loop knows that the SSN is fake.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
No need to be careful connecting the property tax dots. It is true that the money would be paid in any case, but it isnt as if people arent paying rent because they are illegal. Their money is paying for a residence, and money from that is paid in property taxes, and the people occupying that space are paying the EXACT same property tax for service that any other tenant would, legal or not. If there was a case that the home could/should/would be occupied by a legal resident then a case could be built, but
Re: (Score:2)
Zero. None. It's only the U.S. We're the only country in the world that doesn't stringently enforce laws that give citizens first crack at jobs (even if they are on the books).
China is kick out Koreans looking for jobs as we speak. Even the Chinese government, who has about the same regard for human lives as a 3 year old has for the lives of ants, wants too make sure their people have jobs first.
Re: (Score:2)
If somebody from another country want to immigrate to the US to better their education or persue better opportunities, the i fully support you as long as you go through the correct process of obtaining a visa and or citizenship
So I am a poor unskilled Mexican with no family in the US. Please post the URL to "the correct process of obtaining citizenship"?
If you can't, than consider recognizing that for most people, there is no "correct process".
Re: (Score:2)
If I'm reading things correctly, you would start with Form I-140 [uscis.gov], which covers workers of a range of skill sets, including unskilled workers.
Re:My Take (Score:4, Interesting)
When I was a boy in the mid 60s, I sometimes accompanied my dad to Chinatown on business. The place was full of old, old men. No women, no children, almost no men under 60. The reason was that America had needed Chinese labor in the late 19th and earty 20th C., because the ingenuity and work ethic of Chinese workers were valued. But Americans didn't want Chinese people settling here, because they were afraid of being out-competed if those workers settled down here with their families and started businesses and farms. Until 1943 it was illegal to bring Chinese women into the country, and between '43 and '65 only a handful of Chinese immigrants were allowed in each year.
Through the 19th and early 20th C., successful Chinese businesses were frequently attacked, sometimes whole communities driven out of town. Although many Chinese men had agricultural experience, it was impossible to farm because of vandalism by Americans. It was rough making a living. These old men had spent the prime of their lives making money under adverse conditions and sending it back home to support the families they couldn't bring in here, and now they were too old to go back home.
So don't talk to me about the sanctity of American immigration law. It's nothing but a hypocritical crock of shit.
For years Mexicans have been coming here illegally, and we've turned a blind eye to them because we need them. They'll work harder for less money than all but the most industrious Americans. Our comfortable middle-class lives are underwritten by "illegals" providing cheap food and services, but we won't offer them the dignity of legal status because we want to pretend we're not letting in as many brown people as we actually are. We don't really go after the people hiring these immigrants because we want the benefits of more labor than we're willing to let in.
What do people do when faced with a stupid, hypocritical, unjust law? They break it. Speed limit on some stretch of road lower than is reasonable? I bet you go over it and never think of yourself as committing a *real* crime. But what about some poor bastard who just wants to feed his family and comes here *because we need and want him* to work like a dog to support our lifestyle? He's a criminal, right? What about the people setting immigration policies with the clear understanding that they could and should be broken? They have conspired to systematically undermine the rule of law, but we don't call *them* criminals. We re-elect them because they're tough on illegal immigration and pro-business, which means they cater to the needs of people who hire undocumented workers.
American immigration policy is sickening. It's disgraceful, racist, and hypocritical, because we elect politicians who pander to us and undermine the rule of law.
Re: (Score:2)
Any state has a legitimate right, and for that matter a legitimate need, to control its own influx of immigrants. What you are suggesting is only trivially different from uncontrolled immigration.
The Partnership for a New American Economy (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
And any time I parse something like (MS)NBC, I immediately lump it into the left wing propaganda bin. Actually now that I think about it, I barely watch Cable News at all... it's all just corporate-owned propaganda. I listen mostly to RT or DemocracyNow or Infowars ("We are in the middle of an infowar." - Hillary Clinton.)
Re: (Score:2)
Any time I parse something like "(Partnership).*(American|(Econom(y|ic)))", I immediately lump it into the right wing propoganda bin.
The Partnership for a New American Economy [renewoureconomy.org] sounds more corporatist than hard-right; there's more than one right-wing propaganda bin, and they're not in, for example, the right-wing nativist bin.
(Oh, and given who heads up the list of co-chairs [renewoureconomy.org], the "chair" part is a bit amusing....)
Correlation and Causation (Score:2, Informative)
Universities like non-citizen researchers because, as indentured servants, they cost less.
Not to imply that they aren't doing their fair share of research, but they make up a significant portion of the university research body. Of course they'll be on a significant portion of the results.
immigrants crucial to cheap and exploitable labor (Score:3)
It's a nice employment loophole for corporations to get cheap labor instead of having to relocate or off-shore. It's that simple. Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
Re: (Score:3)
Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
So you are saying that bringing skilled people into the US will not generate additional economic benefits (which will employ more people)?
Maybe Sergey Brin's parents should not have been allowed to come to the US. Then we wouldn't have Google. Would more programmers be employed?
By your logic, if we kill all the programmers in the US, unemployment will fall to zero! Woo hoo!
Re: (Score:2)
Depends if you consider a US citizen working at a local restaurant that wouldn't exist without the demand generated by all those foreign workers a benefit. Technically yes...
Now what if that US citizen is actually qualified to perform the work of the foreign worker? The US citizen would make even more money and his increased earnings would also generate demand for that l
so those 20 people standing in front... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Bad logic. Economic benefits don't equal more employed people. The corporate wish list is, in order of preference:
1) Don't hire people.
2) Hire people in a cheap backwards country.
3) Hire people in a cheap backwards state.
4) Hire where they really have to pay a real wage.
What you stated is trickle down economics and, if it ever was valid, is totally invalid in the age of the Internet where most corporations can hire wherever the hell they want.
Wow (Score:3)
You mean that the smartest and brightest are not all born in the USA? I'm shocked.
Re: (Score:2)
Nope, but they move here eventually.
Those are not the immigrants people hate (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
As much grumbling as there is in the tech sector over the HB1 folks (legal status), the average Joe out on the streets is far more resentful of the uneducated migrant workers picking strawberries than they are the post docs with PhDs filling up the universities. The former ones are lowering the wages at the bottom end of the scale for everyone by providing cheap, illegal labor. The smart, educated ones are a minority - and probably speak English pretty well, too.
They are grumbling about that, but often when Joe gets put in a field to pick those strawberries he quits after a day because being unemployed is better (you can Google some of the high-profile stories about this). Joe is happy to leave these jobs to the immigrants and appreciates the lower cost of food.
On the other hand, Joe doesn't want to work in a fast food restaurant or at the grocery store for $8-10 an hour but might do it for $18-20 an hour (a lower but livable wage). This is where things get me
I hate it (Score:5, Insightful)
when number of patents is used as a measure of innovation. It's only a measure of who has the most lawyers.
Stop conflating (Score:2)
Regardless, the very fact that t
Re: (Score:2)
In that case, if it's just the legal process, let's change the legal process. If we make legal immigration easier than illegal immigration then there would be no point to illegally immigrate. Then you have nothing to complain about, right?
So we need better greencard policies (Score:5, Insightful)
It takes 5 years or more for people from certain countries (India/China) to get a greencard after they obtain advanced degrees in the US.
Politicians don't care or talk about this, because these people don't give them enough votes. That's the problem.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, as far as "STEM" goes, my question is - what patents are there that *aren't* in science, technology, engineering, or math? Maybe business processes (though even those are debatably called "industrial engineering"...)
In any case, STEM must make up 95%+ of filed patents, so it's pretty silly to differentiate in this article.
Suddenly number of patents is a good metric?!?!? (Score:2)
Apples and Oranges (Score:2)
They are countering an argument against H1B abuses that keep wages low on the lower skilled tech jobs by giving examples of how, when H1Bs are used correctly, they work as intended.
The "Partnership for a New American Economy" is lobbying for larger numbers of H1B visa to be issued so they can continue to have cheap foreign labor. I have nothing against H1B workers. In fact I work with more than a few and I enjoy working with them. They are students and scientists working on an international project and th
Re: (Score:2)
The problem with overly restricting H1B visas is that the corporate response would be to just move more operations offshore.
That would obviously be worse.
Re: (Score:2)
Could that be the real reason for free trade zones? Free as in corporations can always threaten to leave in exchange for more favorable terms from the government at the expense of its citizen.
Besides that argument rings hollow to me. Corporations wouldn't want to give up any political clout by moving too much offshore. This would make them more or a pariah than an ally. There are plen
Re: (Score:2)
Between the arguments here, and recently watching Niall Ferguson's PBS special (http://video.pbs.org/program/civilization-west-and-rest-niall-ferguson/) about immigration's relationship to economic growth.. /.
it seems we have a lot of 'rednecks' and trolls on
The argument that
" mexicans don't pay taxes" > "mexicans work for less" > "mexican labor takes jobs away from US citizens"
sounds an awful lot - to me - like
" I download free music" > " I don't have money to pay for all t
I think their argument may be flawed. (Score:2)
It sounds like they are arguing to change a broadly applied visa policy to support the one-in-a-million foreign-born propeller-head who actually produces a patent. I am skeptical.
Immigration is simple (Score:5, Insightful)
This whole thing about immigration (legal or not) is simply ridiculous.
Like most industrialized nations, the rate of population growth of the US is declining. We would be under replacement rate already were it not for immigration.
The population growth rate is in decline even with the current rate of immigration [cis.org], which is at historically unprecedented levels (about twice as many as the early 1920's).
Illegals make up a disproportionally large segment of the prison population, but overall, violent crime is way down [cbsnews.com]. (Blacks also have a disproportionally large prison population.)
Thinking that the country cannot sustain the influx, or that these people will somehow reduce our standard of living by requiring more services, or increase the crime rate is simply not supported by the evidence.
Then there's the innovation. Jobs come not from existing businesses, but from starting new businesses, and from new-ish businesses growing large. Immigrants tend to make the most of their opportunities by inventing new things, starting new businesses, and encouraging their children get educated and become successful (source [amazon.com]).
Then there's the infrastructure. Illegal immigrants don't contribute to the infrastructure by paying taxes (as much), but at the same time they become a burden on the infrastructure by avoidance. They avoid the hospitals until something becomes an emergency, they don't alert the police to minor situations before they get out of hand, and so on.
Then there's the exploitation. Illegal immigrants have no recourse when their employer abuses them.
It would almost seem, from a completely neutral viewpoint, that just allowing illegals to become citizens would be a win all around.
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
Perhaps someone can craft a reasonable sounding "what if" scenario that outlines the sophistry for me? I'm not having any luck identifying any evidence-based reasons.
Wow, no non-STEM patents? (Score:4, Funny)
As opposed to all of those patents in English lit and women's studies, I suppose...
Rob
Statistics... I hate them. (Score:2)
First, let me say that I have no problem with immigrants or doubt that they make a huge contribution to... everything.
That said, they're counting any situation where immigrants "played a role"... so if the project had 50 people in it and one of the junior members was an immigrant, would this thing have counted that into their vague as hell statistics?
See, these are the worst sort of stats. You can make these say anything depending on how you play with the numbers.
I'm to the point now where I don't even want
Legal immigration for skilled immigrants (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
In other words, you only want White, Immigrants, no ones with a little brown in their skin.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Half-true (Score:4, Insightful)
"The Mexicans are doing the jobs we don't want to do. The Asians are doing the jobs we don't know how to do. Where does that leave us?" - Colbert
Re:Half-true (Score:4)
Unemployed.
Re:Half-true (Score:4)
Well most likely said immigrant was required to do the WORK for the patent, whether or not he was crucial to the viability of it. That's a double edged sword, without them it wouldn't have happened (or as many wouldn't have happened), but by using them we are training them to be innovators. They very shortly WILL be the key innovators, whether or not thye are now.
Re:Half-true (Score:5, Insightful)
Replace the CEOs with H1bs and you'll get better results.
Re: (Score:2)
Leftists?
I don't really see any of the corporates wanting anything done about illegal immigration. Bush II was pretty hep on keeping a good supply of "slave" labor in for the southern states.
Re: (Score:2)
You should take a look at the Affirmative Action Bake Sale. Like universities it makes it easier for immigrants to "enter" the market by making them only score half as much as whites. Just as they only need to score 750 on SATs to get into college (while whites must score 1000), they only have to pay $1.50 to get a muffin (while whitey must pay $2). Seems fair to me...... after all whites have an "unfair advantage" according to a new campaign run my the Democrats.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-09-2 [nydailynews.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Before the 1950's Europeans (I assume like your ancestors) made up the majority of immigrants to the United States. Immigrant != "non-white", and immigration certainly doesn't have anything to do with "affirmative action". The whole point of the article is that many of the grad students and PhDs publishing the papers and patents at US universities include many immigrants (who are in the US legally, and probably beat your SAT score by a large margin).
The mark of a real racist is one who doesn't even do it
Re: (Score:2)