Researchers Teach Subliminally; Matrix Learning One Step Closer 103
An anonymous reader writes "For the first time ever, scientists from Boston University and ATR Computational Neuroscience Laboratories in Kyoto, Japan have managed to use functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging, or fMRI to decode the process of learning. As the research stands to date, it isn't capable of much. Rather than working with skills like juggling, the researchers relied on images so they could tie into the vision part of the brain, the part that they have managed to partially decode. Nevertheless, they demonstrated that information could be taught using neurofeedback techniques. And it was effective even when people didn't know they were learning."
Re: (Score:1)
But first (Score:1)
Let us make fMRI machines less noisy and more portable.
Re: (Score:2)
TL;DR
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Physics a bitch ain't it.
In order to get the magnetic fields necessary to do imaging you're going to generate a big magnetic field which is contained to a room and the coils itself are going to make a lot of noise as their fields get switched several hundreds times per second.
Re: (Score:2)
obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
I know kung fu.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Don't forget Idon'treadthesubtext-fu.
Re: (Score:1)
Flicks fingers, "show me, bitch."
Citation needed (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
I wonder if they've had any success with the opposite -- trying to get rid of memories. I bet there'd be a big market.
Re:Citation needed (Score:5, Informative)
Getting rid of memories is something that’s already being done, primarily with trauma victims, especially veterans.
It is actually really simple: since the act of recollection pulls the memory from long-term storage and then processes it back through short- and mid-term storage, patients are given drugs that inhibit passing from short-term to mid-term storage. (My mother was also given those after waking up from a coma; even though she was conscious, she remembers almost nothing. Which is good, given that just being plugged in to all those machines is very painful and causes a tormenting feeling of thirst even though you are properly hydrated. A week of those memories would leave serious consequences.)
Anyway, people come to a psychiatrist, drink a pill, and talk about their traumatic experiences, which are then slowly erased from their memories.
It is not always the preferred method; after all, we learn from bad experiences, and it wouldn’t do to erase them all. We’d only make the same mistakes again.
Re: (Score:1)
Um, citation needed.
Yes, there are drugs that can prevent you from forming long-term memories such as in painful hospital situations (many people may experience these when getting a tooth removed). However, there's no such thing as deleting memories this way. When you retrieve a memory, you don't do anything to diminish the long-term memory, so it's ridiculous to suggest that talking about an experience while on memory-inhibitors will somehow erase those memories.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, apparently I’d remembered it wrongly. It seems the memories are not deleted, but their reconsolidation is blocked, which I’d then remembered as “deleted”. Using propranolol can retain the memory, but diminish or eliminate its emotional impact.
And no, it is not ridiculous to suggest it, though I was mistaken.
Every retelling modifies a memory slightly, which goes to show that something is done. I recall reading about the above procedure here on Slashdot, but not when.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder if they've had any success with the opposite -- trying to get rid of memories. I bet there'd be a big market.
Yes, inhibiting protein creation while a memory is being recalled, which actually re-creates the memory, can prevent the memory from storing again. There have been human trials. This Radiolab discusses it http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jun/07/ [radiolab.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
(+1, Flamebait)
Am I doing it right?
Re:Citation needed (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:1)
It might be spam, but I understood more of it than the GP :/
The sorry state of science reporting (Score:3, Informative)
The article claims that they recorded the brain patterns of jugglers imagining the act of juggling, and then had a non-juggler imagine doing the same thing and rewarded them if they matched those brain patterns, thereby teaching them how to juggle.
That's absurd on its face. But then the article tucks away the fact that what the study really only dealt with visual imagery. It used fMRI, which has been around for years and "decodes" the visual process of the brain. So what this study is really about is figuring out visual perceptual learning, not a physical skill like juggling. Using fMRI, they can "improve performance on visual tasks" [infozine.com].
It says right in the article that they have yet to test if this process works with any other type of learning. It's more likely that it may have uses in rehabilitation and memory learning, or at least provide insight into those processes. There's no Matrix learning here.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)
Who reads summaries?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:The sorry state of science reporting (Score:5, Funny)
It's like a wintery, only warmer.
Re: (Score:2)
I was commenting on the linked article, which lists the "process" in this study and uses juggling as an example. Yet the study doesn't involve that process at all, and that's not mentioned until after the hyperbolic headline and several paragraphs.
But you're right that I bucked the usual trend by reading a link first and summary second on Slashdot.
Re: (Score:2)
But you're right that I bucked the usual trend by reading on Slashdot.
FTFY.
Re: (Score:2)
Also in the summary was this bit of silliness: "And it was effective even when people didn't know they were learning". People learn without realizing it all the time, no fMri needed.
Re: (Score:2)
Wax on, wax off.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Imagining doing something and actually doing it physically is close to the same thing as far as learning and the brain is concerned. Yes, that means that you can get better at, say, basket ball by sitting in your couch imagining playing basket ball - the rate of learning is nearly the same as actually playing basket ball. Presumably your assumptions of how basket ball works will get out of sync with reality after a while, so you will need to actually go play for real too every once in a while. So there is r
Re: (Score:1)
The article claims that they recorded the brain patterns of jugglers imagining the act of juggling, and then had a non-juggler imagine doing the same thing and rewarded them if they matched those brain patterns, thereby teaching them how to juggle.
Maybe you should read it a little more carefully. That was a hypothetical procedure which the article specifically states they did NOT do, because they're not at that point yet.
But yeah, this article/attention-getting-blog is crap; they didn't even bother crediting where they got the news from. Here's the actual source:
Science Magazine - Perceptual Learning Incepted by Decoded fMRI Neurofeedback Without Stimulus Presentation [sciencemag.org]
Re: (Score:2)
And worse, it's not even a particularly new finding from this research team. They reported on something similar 3 YEARS ago:
http://pinktentacle.com/2008/12/scientists-extract-images-directly-from-brain/ [pinktentacle.com]
Last, neurofeedback -- a technique that's been around and well-understood for 2 decades now -- isn't likely to teach anyone a skill like juggling. It can help guide you to better understand your bodily responses and reflexes, but it's not like you can imprint one fMRI image onto another person. Neurofeedback
Does anyone even remember The Matrix anymore? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Does anyone even remember The Matrix anymore? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Does anyone even remember The Matrix anymore? (Score:5, Funny)
My eight children all saw the Matrix before their fourth birthdays. I also reinforce with annual refreshers.
It's too bad they never made a sequel.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
A sequel was never made.
Re: (Score:1)
It's too bad they never made a sequel.
I'll have to disagree. Twice.
So you're saying it's a good thing they never made two sequels?
Re:Does anyone even remember The Matrix anymore? (Score:4, Funny)
It's too bad they never made a sequel.
I'll have to disagree. Twice.
So you're saying it's a good thing they never made two sequels?
It's an exclusive or kind of disagreement: !too bad XOR !they never made a sequel.
Re:Does anyone even remember The Matrix anymore? (Score:4, Informative)
It's too bad they never made a sequel.
I'll have to disagree. Twice.
I'll have to whoosh: http://xkcd.com/566/ [xkcd.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Most. Basic. Sci-Fi concept. Ever.
It's been done to death in modern sci-fi ages before Keanu had this glint in his eye, and much, much, much better.
Re: (Score:2)
http://xkcd.com/566/ [xkcd.com]
Re: (Score:2)
I think I actually never saw the third film, (which is not to say any sequels were ever made). Or maybe I have repressed that memory.
When I was a kid and saw back to the future, I thought it was the greatest movie ever made. At later inspection, one wonders how it was possible to be so immersed, noticing things that should have broken the spell. I find this happens a lot with movies or TV-shows.
I've often first thought a new show with a new take on a genre being better than anything else so far but later ge
Re: (Score:2)
Neo is Jesus.
Complete with crucifxion-pose sacrificial death..
Re: (Score:2)
Complete with superman flying.
The only difference here is which culture is being alienated. If they had started with the 3rd film and moved backward we would have had a lot of angry Christians bitching about why they took a classic Revelations movie and made it all Eastern philosophy. No one on
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
As a current high schooler I'm calling bullshit. The Matrix was part of most of my friend's childhoods.
No, I'm not getting off your lawn.
Re:Does anyone even remember The Matrix anymore? (Score:5, Funny)
If you're not getting off it, could you at least do something useful with it?
The garden hose is out back, and the mower in the garage. thanks.
Re: (Score:2)
We’ve already got memes.
Re: (Score:1)
Ah, you try doing a Lawnmower Man reference... Even get the crickets by most /.'ers...
What? (Score:2)
No martial arts or helicopter flying downloads yet?
Re:What? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Sure you can. I've done it twice. Each time, reality was replaced with something stranger.
Don't ask what it was like before. I'm fairly sure it would cause a paradox of some sort. I believe that's what happened to the 1970's.
Not to rain on the parade... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, reading the actual article (which ziel gratefully provided a link for [slashdot.org]) reveals that while the participants didn't know that they were learning visual patterns, they still had to actively participate (their task was to somehow increase a green circle). I'm pretty sure you can't be put into an MRI machine without noticing it (unless you are unconscious or sleeping, but then this scheme cannot work anyway). So if you are put into an MRI, and you fear them secretly teaching you bad things, just refuse to
Re: (Score:2)
If corporations can convince people to wear headgear that can measure brain activity, either EEG or fMRI (fMRI headgear is far-future tech, I know) and give access to the results, some bad shit's gonna happen. I was watching a feature yesterday that showed a marketing firm that uses EEG outputs to fine-tune advertisements to make them as irresistible as possible to specific individuals. At what point does it cross the line from advertisement to mind control? Or to look at it another way, this would allow ad
Re: (Score:1)
For that they don't need any new technology. They are already very good in it.
what makes you think? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If it had already happened, why would we be allowed to talk about it?
Parade is appropriate (Score:1)
Welcome to the new MRI taught army.
Re: (Score:3)
But couldn't this be a terrible thing? And it was effective even when people didn't know they were learning. Translation: It will eventually fall into the hands of someone not-so-nice (politician, corporation, etc.), and suddenly we will "learn" that they are good, or we should buy their product, or elect them to be our leader, etc.
They already do that, no fMri needed. Where do you think all the middle and low income tea partiers come from? These poor fools have been trained to vote against their own intere
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, they just have to convince to to visualize, over and over, whatever they want you to learn.
Re: (Score:2)
All they have to do is convince you to visualize whatever they want you to learn. Over and over. Responding to feedback until you have it perfect.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
French pronunciation is bloody difficult, no way around it, unless the teacher was an ass or something this won't help any more than lessons.
The Matrix? Try... (Score:2)
Salmon (Score:2)
So, did they also try a dead salmon? [prefrontal.org]
Just think what this could mean: well-educated zombies!
mapping knowledge is not difficult. (Score:2)
Its about core or prime knowledge.
I.e. you do not try to remember all possible mathematical equations or results for that would be impossible, instead your lean the abstract symbols, meanings and rules of use of mathematics, from there you can formulate and extrapolate any mathematical result. There is no spoon feeding here, you are the one who bends.
Of course this is all abstract, even the visual self image of you juggling, is only in your mind. Its like using a computer, you can know all there is to be fo
Laugh... (Score:2)
It's called television and it's been programming people for decades.
First thing I'm going to learn.... MATH!!! (Score:1)
All of it. Math is a lot more useful in life than kung-fu.
Blech (Score:2)
Every fMRI story I read is summarized basically by "Guy 1 puts Guy 2 in fMRI and now ALL THE SECRETS OF THE BRAIN HAVE BEEN REVEALED AND WE CAN CONTROL LAZERS WITH OUR MIND".
That would be like saying "I looked in a telescope and NOW I AM EMPEROR OF SPACE"
fMRI is a painfully inexact technique, and sample sizes for fMRI studies are generally very small (either very few subjects or few trials compared to a non-MRI study), because of the expense of MRI time and the difficulty in finding subjects who will actual