When Geeks Meet, Are They More Likely To Have Autistic Kids? 327
An anonymous reader writes "Psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen thinks scientists and engineers could be more likely to have a child with autism, an idea that is fairly common currency in Silicon Valley. But many researchers say the proof isn't there yet. From the article: 'Baron-Cohen proposes that systemizing ability can be inherited — and that in information-technology (IT) enclaves such as Silicon Valley, where hypersystemizers are more likely to meet, pair off and have children, the result is a higher incidence of autism. Back in 1997, for example, he concluded that fathers of children with autism were more than twice as likely to be engineers as were fathers of non-autistic children. But autism researchers ... found that fathers of children with autism were more likely to work in medicine, science and accountancy, as well as engineering, and less likely to have manual occupations. They suggested that these fathers were simply more likely to have reached a higher level of education. Baron-Cohen says that when he reanalysed the data and controlled for education level, he found that fathers of children with autism were still more likely to be engineers, although the difference was smaller.'"
He is a psychologist? (Score:3)
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Agreed, and the reason why we have supposed "higher rate of autism" as engineers is that engineers usually realize they have no business trying to sort out emotional problems, they seek out professionals "who know better" by taking the misbehaving child to a psycologist, and the psych says "why yes, your child misbehaves, here are some drugs" and we dope the kid up.
The non engineering parents with the lower rates of autism usually don't bother with taking the child to the doctor because they don't see a nee
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most cases of autism I have dealt with are merely children acting out because the boundaries are not clearly defined by their parents and the parents not having any fucking clue what to do with the kids.
The Bullshit is strong in this one.
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the town i live in has a lot of "troubled youth" schools. i'm fairly familiar with the acting-up kid circuit.
http://g.co/maps/8vagy [g.co]
that AC is actually right more than you know. the punks come in 2 kinds: the actual punks; and kids who've barely acted out (or even not at all) and their upwardly mobile parents didn't have the time/patience/interest to expend so they pay $$$ to have their kid locked up.
you could come see this first hand by working at any of the MANY fine establishments... there is such a massi
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When you speak of kids "acting up", I figure that
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Thats what id like to know. I remember working a bounce ride at a childrens party in which an autistic child was in attendance. He got on the ride and would not come off when time was up. I tried to coax him off when his mother came to me and told me that her son had autism. She explained it as a sort of disconnection with the world, he was in his own little world and is unable to understand and socially interact normally with other people. So I just left him on the ride. He would just run around and bump
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Just as lawyers write up new laws to ensure themselves work, psychologists and psychiatrists do the same. Every personality quirk has been labeled as some sort of mental disorder. There isn't a person in the whole world who doesn't have a mental disorder by their definitions.
Basically their purpose in life is to get paid for writing prescriptions for liver-destroying medication in amounts that won't get jackbooted thugs to knock in your door.
Disclaimer: I was once foolish enough to seek their help. I ended
ahh, different Baron-Cohen (Score:3)
Who else said, "wait, is that Ali G?"
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Who else said, "wait, is that Ali G?"
As I trust Wikipedia 100%, they are surely cousins :D
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Go watch the Young Ones
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Go watch the Young Ones
Best reply ever!
I feel sorry for the elephant
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Dupe (Score:5, Informative)
Isn't this a dupe [slashdot.org]?
Wasn't it a terrible story the first time around?
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yes and yes
Solution: (Score:2)
Date a blonde.
jk
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There are blond geeks. I'd pretend to be one, but I'd get lots of marriage proposals.
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my scraggly brown locks do nothing to protect me
Perhaps you need to specify 'ask me biology questions in my journal'?
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my scraggly brown locks do nothing to protect me
Perhaps you need to specify 'ask me biology questions in my journal'?
Probably still not specific enough.
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There are blond geeks. I'd pretend to be one, but I'd get lots of marriage proposals.
I don't have much choice (I don't want to dye my hair). However, I'm male, so I don't think the joke applies.
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Of course it's wrong (Score:4, Funny)
If it were true, that would imply that when geek guys meet geek girls, they get it on, instead of just looking awkwardly at each other.
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If it were true, that would imply that when geek guys meet geek girls, they get it on, instead of just looking awkwardly at each other.
My geek girlfriend and I (we're both engineers) get it on... the awkward looks back and forth are just a kinky bonus :D
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If it were true, that would imply that when geek guys meet geek girls, they get it on, instead of just looking awkwardly at each other.
Umm, have you actually met any geek girls? Better grab on to something*.
* blatant over-generalization based on anecdotal experience
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Umm, have you actually met any geek girls? Better grab on to something*.
* blatant over-generalization based on anecdotal experience
Well now, isn't that the whole point?
Or perhaps... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parents that are in better paid positions such as engineering ones are more likely to be able to afford to have their children properly diagnosed. Poor children with learning disabilities are just lumped into the "stupid poor kids" category.
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You have that backwards. People who are more well off tend to get diagnosed less frequently because they have the means to avoid such diagnoses. The poor students though, end up needing to get diagnosed and having less control over it than the well off do.
Re:Or perhaps... (Score:4, Insightful)
You apparently have never been around a parent that has a ASD child. You don't "avoid such diagnoses" as avoiding them only makes life more difficult for the child as well as the parent. Depend on the degree of the ASD, it's not like other conditions where you can just live in denial and hope no one notices there might be an issue.
Re:Or perhaps... (Score:5, Interesting)
AC because I don't remember my login credentials and lost the associated email address years ago. If someone can mod this up to at least 1 or 2 so people can see it, I'd appreciate it.
I am an engineer, my wife is an astronomer. We have an ASD child. Around 18 months we definitely noticed odd behaviors, all red flags. She wouldn't respond to her name. She'd line up objects of the same color. She'd stack identical objects precisely, not the typical stacking you see from toddlers. She'd walk on the balls of her feet. Her speech was delayed. She wouldn't make eye contact. She'd arch her back away from hugs or other physical contact.
The initial diagnosis was PDD-NOS, pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified. Our daughter's behavior didn't map precisely to an autism diagnosis, but she was on the spectrum. I will readily admit that I did not want that diagnosis. I wanted someone to tell me that my daughter was just a late bloomer, that the language delay was because we are a bilingual household, that all of the autistic behaviors weren't really autistic. It threw us into a very unfamiliar world of speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, insurance coverage, insurance denials, out of pocket expenses, sensory integration equipment, weighted vests, sleep disruptions ... the list goes on.
It's not easy. Sometimes I feel sympathy for the parents of neurologically atypical kids when they say "sometimes I wish my child just had cancer" because that's something that can hopefully be treated, hopefully be cured, as opposed to having to wrap your brain around the fact that your child is autistic, and you just. don't. know. if she'll ever be able to live independently, if she'll be able to be a productive member of society, if she'll be able to tell you that she loves you.
I didn't seek out the diagnosis. I didn't want her to get one at first, but it's true that having one has made it easier to open doors to certain treatment options. It's also closed other doors to certain treatment options -- "Oh, we only cover 20 occupational therapy visits per year, but none for developmental disabilities, and we consider spectrum disorders developmental issues, so ... yeah, sucks to be you!"
It's been over a year since that dx, and since then, thanks to aggressive early intervention we're seeing improvements. My wife has put her career on hold to devote herself full-time to this -- the window of opportunity is closing, and we're fortunate that this was caught early on, so we need to make the most of these early years -- and spends her days dealing with children's hospitals, therapists, early education from the school district, sleep specialists, insurance companies who give you a different answer every time you call. The last time we saw the developmental pediatrics specialist, he changed the diagnosis to high functioning autism. We're making progress but it'll be with us forever.
Still, when I can get a "papa, up" from her as I lift her into her bed, I tell myself that hopefully it'll be ok.
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If anything, the fact that the parents referred to in the story and yourself are successful simply means you are
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My daughter was diagnosed with PDD-NOS a year ago and turns 3 in January. She's adopted, so I don't know if her birth parents were "smart" or "geeky" but I can second everything else here. My wife and I are smart and geeky, respectively.
After talking with a lot of doctors and specialists over the past year, my feeling is not so much that the incidence of ASD is higher as much as it is that we're identifying it better now. But there are two things I know for sure: that early, intensive intervention is ext
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That's definitely not true. Your child's best chance in life is to get enormously expensive therapy, which requires either diagnosis or a lot of money (like top 2% money). For everyone but that top 2%, fighting to get a diagnosis is a must. The poor are left undiagnosed because it costs the insurance companies a lot of money, so they push back with the doctors hard.
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or it's environmental, and things that more affluent professionals are exposed to in their work or choose for their lifestyle is to blame. Lack of Vitamin D from working indoors. toxic components in electronics. whatever... the indoor built environment most engineers/medical personnel or the like is used to is simply FULL of new, offgassing, toxic components on a fairly regular basis.... especially if they like buying new stuff at home too. New Car smell? New couch, desk chair, pressboard desk, carpeti
Mod Parent Up (Score:2)
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to whoever modded me as a troll, Go buy a new plastic rolling chair mat sometime. Throw it under your desk. If you don't get a sore throat on the first day, working a regular day on it, send me your address and I'll send you $20 toward the cost of the mat. I am AMAZED at the level of toxins we tolerate normally.
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Whoever modded this troll is crazy.
The other really obvious candidate theory not discussed, though, is age (of the father and the mother) at conception, which is a known factor already, and obviously connected with education, which geeks tend to get a lot of.
Meet or mate? (Score:2)
I've met lots of geeks and don't have any children, autistic or otherwise. Am I doing it wrong?
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Pair off is a euphemism for mate, in case that was unclear.
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Let me guess... your parents are geeks?
Keyboard (Score:2)
When I was a kid we didn't have autism spectrums (Score:4, Insightful)
If a kid was socially awkward, we just called them shy or socially awkward (or geek and dorkwad on the pejorative side). Now every kid who isn't happy all day and whistling zippidty-do-da out his ass 24-7 has some kind of disorder. Not to dismiss those who legitimately have real autism (and they are out there), but all this "My kid has autism spectrum disorder/Asperger's," etc. shit has gotten ridiculous. Between that and all these ADHD kids (we called that hyperactive or just "rebellious" when I was a kid), these kids are so doped-up that I'm amazed they can even walk upright. Christ, NOBODY took medication when I was in school (except for one diabetic kid we had). And I don't recall meeting a single kid that had a "peanut allergy" before a public hysteria began over it.
Now get off my lawn!!
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And I don't recall meeting a single kid that had a "peanut allergy" before a public hysteria began over it.
Yeah, that's because they all died when they ate their first peanut butter & jelly sandwich.
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Yeah, that's because they all died when they ate their first peanut butter & jelly sandwich.
I'm pretty sure someone would have noticed that pattern long before the 90's.
Re:When I was a kid we didn't have autism spectrum (Score:5, Funny)
When I was a kid 24.679 years ago I had 4 kids in my 9am class with special needs, 2 in my 10 am class, 6 in my 11 am class, and 5 in my noon class. I had an average of 4.25 kids with special needs in my classes. There was only a 0.003% mention of incidence of autism on a daily sliding window basis but that didn't matter because we all got the same number of pencils, exactly 1 per week for the school year for 36 weeks of school, but on leap years we didn't get an extra 0.00555 pencils which I thought was wrong, nor did anyone take into account the total length of carbon trace each of us used or the exact pressure each of used pushed with.
When I was a kid we didn't have autism.
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And I don't recall meeting a single kid that had a "peanut allergy" before a public hysteria began over it.
The predominant method of roasting peanuts changed in the 80's to a faster, higher-temperature process that changes the protein profile of the resulting peanut products. Most people don't seem to have a problem with this.
I don't know of a good study comparing the two (or how one could ethically design such a study).
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Wow, that's an incredibly interesting fact. The only ethical way of doing such a study is to grab a large sample of people who are not known to have a peanut allergy. Then, when people in each group have a reaction, it's not your fault.
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I don't recall meeting a single kid that had a "peanut allergy" before a public hysteria began over it.
It's a real thing. I have a cousin who runs a day care and she says that the number of kids she deals with who are allergic to peanuts has exploded from practically nothing in the last 5-10 years. She says if some of them even smell a peanut they could go into a coma.
Me and my friends ate tons of peanuts when we were kids, and never heard of peanut allergies...
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Saying they could go into a coma is not the same thing as actually going into a coma. I'm sure there are kids (actually parents) that think they're allergic, but are exposed every day. My first grader brings peanut butter & jelly sandwiches to lunch weekly, as do many other kids. None of the kids are 'careful' not to wave their sandwiches around - hell they throw food like kids do. No one's ever had a coma, or any freaking reaction whatsoever.
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Oh I knew lots of kids with other problems, (and grew up in the heyday of ADD overdiagnosis as well) but peanut allergies weren't one of them.
some of the "slow learners" were probably autistic (Score:2)
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Re: the peanut allergy: that was because in your day, they were all dead already.
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As I told an earlier poster, I'm pretty sure a pattern of kids dropping dead after trying peanut butter for the first time would have been spotted *long* before the 90's. When a kid dies suddenly, doctors and medical examiners make a pretty major effort to find out why.
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SIDS is still a big mystery, but since they started restricting peanut allergens in schools, the rate has dropped by about half.
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When I was in elementary school in the late 80s/early 90s, there were usually 0-2 kids (out of 30-35) in my class each grade that had to take some kind of medicine for hyperactivity. At least one of them I remember specifically it was pretty clear when he hadn't taken his medicine that he literally couldn't sit still in his chair.
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We didn't have them when I was a kid, either, but that is a sad and unfortunate thing.
In decades and centuries past, many disorders were not understood, not diagnosed and just attributed to stupidity, or rebelliousness, or negative character traits. Those people just failed or succeeded as best they could on their own -- mostly they failed. In the case of allergies many of them just died.
These disorders are fundamentally no different from, say, presbyopia. They have a mixture of congenital and enviro
Autism in Silicon Valley (Score:2, Informative)
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Steve more likely had the ADD/Aspergers overlap than being only an Aspy.
There's sometimes misdiagnosis with ADD and Aspergers as certain types can look very similar while having completely different root causes.
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It's not really a problem of misdiagnosis, it's a problem of poorly defined categories. That's why it's now all headed for being described as 'the spectrum'. The reality is, we don't understand the root cause well enough for any diagnosis to be definitive, it's all about trying to best label the observed behaviors in order to effectively (usefully) categorize these kids into treatment bins.
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I had mononucleosis once, does that mean I am now qualified to diagnose it in others? A hallmark of the autism spectrum is difficulty communicating - Steve Jobs, seriously?
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I had mononucleosis once, does that mean I am now qualified to diagnose it in others?
Realistically, yes.
Age of father (Score:2)
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Mod parent up. Studies have shown strong correlation with age of the father. It's an obvious explanation that should have been tackled by this article if they wanted any credibility.
Evidence is ambigous (Score:2)
So the guys claim is only backed by his own research while two other studies had opposite results. I think we shoudln't jump to any conclusions just yet.
Moral of the story (Score:2)
Assortative Mating (Score:3)
... to give it it's proper name. Basically, people with similar behaviours end to seek out each others company. For example, heavy drinking smokers will probably find themselves at the bar or outside in smokers' alley. Similarly, ability to survive economically will determine where people can live. If some of these behaviours are genetically determined then they are also more likely to reproduce and so lead to a concentration of those genetic predispositions. But, and this is the bit but, there's a very thin thread between genes and complex behaviours, despite what you might read in the papers. There is a breathtaking array of interactions between, for example, genes and environment in producing behaviour and that are far from being properly inderstood that Baron-Cohen's thesis is, to put it mildly, overinterpreting the available evidence.
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Fourth, in the old days, such awkward/geeky people didn't get much chance to reproduce.
I don't think this is true. I think in the old days such people were much more likely to reproduce with a partner who is more "normal", though, because it was harder to find a mate with similar characteristics. Instead, they just found someone who was less desirable in other ways. For example, uglier.
Evolution to geeks: (Score:2)
Marry the cheerleader (football captain). That is all.
Intelligence downside (Score:3)
Look -- there _has_ to be some downside to intelligence. Neuroses, depression, whatever. Otherwise, the entire human race would have self-selected for some higher intelligence level than IQavg=98 sd=15 .
There has been more than enough evolutionary time to estabilsh equilibria during the agriculture phase (5ky), probably also during the industrial phase (150y), but not yet enough during the info phase (50y).
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The "downside" might simply be that intelligent people have more interesting things to do than breed like bunnies.
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More intelligent individuals are also more likely to innovate and find better ways to flourish which would encourage breeding unless there is a downside to the additional intelligence that would counteract that benefit and ultimately inhibit breeding.
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You understand that IQavg = 100, and that it's normalized, right? That 100 is average not because that's how smart people are, but because that's how smart people were when they normalized it?
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Yes, IIRC IQ was normed at 100 (and spanned at sd=15) in the 1940s based on US GI testing. Averages have drifted slightly down, but sd has not changed.
Uh, no. IQ is continuously normalized such that 100 is always the average, and the adjustments that need to be made have always and consistenly been to compensate for a rise in IQ, not a decrease. It's called the Flynn effect [wikipedia.org]
One of the explanations for it is that, even though IQ tests try to be as culture neutral as possible, as education improves, people are more familiar with the type of questions in an IQ tests and as a result become better at answering them.
Definitely not (Score:3)
Geeks are not more likely to have autistic kids.
- but there is a very high probability that they will have kids that are indistinguishable from autistic kids.
The takeaway? Engineers, marry artists (Score:2)
Too bad who you fall in love with has nothing to do with personality types or abilities.
Geeks must date hot models (Score:2)
That's the conclusion, folks. Therefore, Julieanne Hough must dump Ryan Seacrest and date me. Julianne, call me.
Conservative families (Score:2)
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If you live in a conservative area, then it's probably explained by sampling bias. SV is very, very liberal, and has the highest diagnosis rate in the country (for whatever reason).
correlation not causation (Score:2)
For crying out loud. How many times do we see this? I think it has to do with more educated people being older when they have their first child and nothing to do with their personality.
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Mod parent up. This is a much more obvious, and proven explanation that needs to be discounted by any competing theory, and wasn't in this case.
Old Wired Story (Score:2)
This just shows, in a roundabout way... (Score:2)
...that engineers are smarter than doctors. Well, we all knew that.
Testesterone plays a role in autism as well (Score:2)
First, there are more than one type of autism. And they may have different kind of causes and even multiple triggers. Second, in Asperger syndrome cases they found out that elevated levels of testosterone during pregnancy can cause Asperger, especially with male embryos.
Another aspect is, the more people look for a special dysfunction, the more they find. This is one cause why there are more autistic kids found in academic families then elsewhere. Especially mild cases of autism are not recognized by teache
on the plus side (Score:2)
The Bay Area is Full of Hg (Score:2)
When discussing the supposed link between autism and the Bay Area, perhaps people should consider that it is a giant pit of mercury. During the Gold Rush "quicksilver" mines sprung up everywhere, particularly in South Bay/Santa Clara (i.e., Silicon Valley). The mercury was also haplessly spread around in the gold mining process. To this day, there are signs all over the place---parks, hiking trails, creeks, etc.---warning of mercury contamination. But before modern regulations, Silicon Valley was a giant or
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I can't condone studies that perpetuate a stereotype at the expense of a vulnerable group.
Quite
can you imagine the PC crowd if it read "when Muslims meet they are more likely to have terrorist children"?
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Frustrated by their child's autism, the young couple turned to becoming geeks. Tragic, really.