Pioneer Anomaly Solved By 1970s Computer Graphics 169
Frans Faase updated us on a Pioneer Mystery we've been following for many years: something is tugging Pioneer 10 & 11. A few years ago a theory surfaced but now "A new computer model of the way heat is emitted by various parts of the Pioneer spacecraft, and reflected off others, finally solves one of the biggest mysteries in astrophysics. Previous calculations have only estimated the effect of reflections. A computer modeling technique called Phong shading was used to work out exactly how the the emitted heat is reflected (PDF) and in which direction it ends up traveling. Taking into account the reflections on the antenna seem to make the anomaly disappear."
To be fair... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:To be fair... (Score:5, Interesting)
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I think what is remarkable is that the monolith is able to make its effect on the probes look identical to phong shading.
Re:To be fair... (Score:4, Informative)
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And in 1973 a disappointed Sisqo sang "Let me see that Phong..."
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And in 1973 a disappointed Sisqo sang "Let me see that Phong..."
Oh Cisco ..
Oh Pancho ...
The Cisco Kid [imdb.com]
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Wasn't that Bob the Guardian?
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Wasn't that Bob the Guardian?
Thanks! I was waiting for a "Reboot" reference.
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Just got the boxed set so it was on my mind.
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And the saddest thing is that Phong died shortly after completing his dissertation. So he never knew the impact his techniques had on the field.
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The technique for Phong Shading was introduced in 1973 as an improvement to Gouraud Shading, but was too computationally intensive to be used for graphics back then. This is no longer the case [valvesoftware.com].
It was too computationally intensive for *realtime* rendering in 1973, but clearly not out of reach for the kind of modeling software NASA people were using ...
Also, it should be noted that realtime phong shading was already common in demos/intros running on 33 MHz 386 CPUs back in the 90s
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Too bad. (Score:2)
Oh, well. It was fun while it lasted.
But... Phong is wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
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Saying Phong is right after fitting the calculated data to the measured data just suspect.
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Re:But... Phong is wrong (Score:4, Informative)
They did explain why. Thermal effects. The only thing that Phong shading did was to remove an obstacle to that hypothesis that was merely due to built-in inaccuracies in how they accounted for those effects initially.
In other words, the shading increased the accuracy of the calculations and it was found that when it was applied the most likely solution became even more likely.
While it is true that the Phong solution is still likely "wrong" due to being not perfectly accurate, it's still a lot less wrong than thermal effects uncorrected, and much, much less wrong than assuming aliens or an entirely new discovery in gravitation.
Re:But... Phong is wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
The main problem with Phong is, that it can create energy depending on the parameters. Meaning the emitted light can be stronger than the incident light and so in that calculation create thrust out of nowhere.
Additionally the Pioneer probes are made out of metal, Phong is derived from a model of plastic. The properties of those two materials are quite different, one being a conductor the other an insulator, so the Fresnel equation gives quite different values for the reflective properties, additionally metals are often anisotropic in their reflection capabilities. This has influence on the direction and form of the lobe for the first order effects. I also don't understand, why they didn't use one of the established BRDFs which are at least physically correct.
I looked through the paper and I see no prove, that the parameters they assume for diffuse and specular reflection don't violate the laws of physics.
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You have a Ph.D in Astrophysics, don't you?
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What does it matter if he does?
He can't be heard if he DOESN'T have a Ph.D in Astrophysics?
Conversely, if he DOES have one, does that make his proposal magically valid?
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Whatever the real model is, Phong is an approximation of it. We know it's a decent approximation, because when we use Phong to model the effects of illumination, the results look realistic. Nobody said it's a perfect model. It is apparently quite a bit better than the approximations used previously.
Even when we do have an exact model of something, we A) still don't know if it's correct, just that it matches observations made so far, and B) when we use a computer to analyze a situation based on that model, w
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So Phong is "right" for the probe, because it incidentally matches what they're seeing better?
You should not treat this question as though it is a rhetorical. You should treat it as though it is an actual question to which you do not know the answer. And then go find out the answer, if it bothers you so much.
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saying the earth is flat. Or saying that Pioneer is a spherical cow. Scientists aren't looking for something that is right rather than wrong, they are looking for something that bounds the error term in a significantly tighter way. Phong apparently does this. Presumably any ad-hoc model that approximated reality closer than what was done before would have also decreased the error bounds.
And Oren-Nayar? Have you mistaken Pionee
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When you say "Phong shading is wrong", isn't that just with respect to visible light? Are you sure "Phong is wrong" for thermal radiation?
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Here's the article ... (Score:5, Informative)
... from Slava Turyshev which describes what they did to model the craft and show that heat could be the culprit.
http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/pioneer_anomaly/update_20080519.html [planetary.org]
sounds like radiosity too (Score:2)
Radiosity being a 90s computer graphics term for calculation how radiation (heat and light) hit surfaces and are absorbed or re-emitted by them. It came from earlier studies on this not relating to computer graphics.
You can render your radiosity results using phong shading or other shading techniques.
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You can render your radiosity results using phong shading or other shading techniques.
You could, but that would be a very stupid thing to do. Why go to the bother of computing an accurate colour for a point on a surface, to then modulate it with an in-accurate plastic surface approximation? That makes absolutely no sense.
Um, Ray Tracing? (Score:2)
Imagine how well you'd model this using monte-carlo techniques / ray tracing.
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I can't tell if you think you're being sarcastic or not. If you are, don't be that's still pretty easy. Especially since the sun is probably 99.9% of the energy.
I could probably setup just such a simulation in pretty short order given a nice CSV source list.
How close did they get? Error bars? (Score:3)
I RTFA, but didn't find the results of their calculation. The old method yielded 67% of the effect, but they didn't say what the new method resulted in (other than get the "right" answer). Also I'd want to know error bars. Does the new answer +/- error bars overlap with the detected phenomena within the error bars of it's value?
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Does the new answer +/- error bars overlap with the detected phenomena within the error bars of it's value?
If you read the paper itself [arxiv.org], there's a graph on page 10 showing exactly that. The error bars on the measured size of the effect overlap almost completely with the error bars on this new calculation.
Direct thermal radiation off the front of the craft explains most of the effect. The "Pioneer anomaly" vanishes completely once you factor in radiation reflected off the antenna dish. It still warrants some more investigation and more papers pinning it down better, but in my opinion this issue can now be pretty
Next mystery (Score:2)
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While a mundane explanation has always seemed most likely, why is is "good to know" that an exciting new discovery isn't going to happen?
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Because focus can now be placed elsewhere instead of continuing to investigate a red herring.
While it is sometimes disappointing that unknown effects don't always turn out to be from unknown causes, having the exciting new discoveries come from the basis of fact rather than imagination is the main difference between actual science versus everything else that claims to be science.
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I'm not sure how this become the "biggest mystery in astrophysics." Maybe to the ADD addled tech crowd and other casual people who were using it as code for "hey, maybe aliens." It was like a "god of the gaps" argument. Well, "alien of the gaps."
Occam's razor, use it.
Re:tao of physics?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well and every crackpot trying to overturn all of modern physics/cosmology without understanding it first. The number of times I've heard the Pioneer Anomaly brought up as evidence that modern physics was fundamentally broken and the Scientific Clergy refused to admit it is... very large. I think I've even heard EU morons claiming that their plasma cosmology explained the Pioneer Anomaly.
Of course nobody who latched on to the anomaly will be satisfied by this explanation. So it goes...
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Of course nobody who latched on to the anomaly will be satisfied by this explanation. So it goes...
Not so. Since I heard about it, I've allowed the possibility that Newtonian/relativistic physics may have some inaccuracies at very large scales, or that something about space was unknown.
Now this calculation offers a much simpler explanation, so I'll count it as far more likely to be true. I'd previously assumed those writing the papers would have accounted for it.
But until we have a Grand Unified Theory, or
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Not so. Since I heard about it, I've allowed the possibility that Newtonian/relativistic physics may have some inaccuracies at very large scales,
"Allowed" is what most physicists have done, though the most likely scenario was always considered to be that there was a mundane explanation. "Latched on to" is what crackpots have done, and will continue to do. Because they're trying to overturn all of physics, and "some inaccuracies" still means the existing theory is pretty good and predicts a great many things correctly. But they want to somehow undo all of that with one unexplained thing that the theory doesn't predict.
I'm not going to place any 300-year bets that our current understanding of physics is Correct(tm).
You and every scientist in ex
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Do you think there is, or for some reason that I was creating, a false dichotomy between idiots trying to overturn physics without understanding it, and current theory being indubitably correct?
I suspect "latched on to" is the point of confusion. I had put the Pioneer Anomaly into the "this needs explaining" category - and something I wasn't willing to let go of for the sake of mathematical purity. From your response, I think your usage meant, "this proves all of physics is wrong." So, it seems we're in
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From your response, I think your usage meant, "this proves all of physics is wrong."
My response, and the very first sentence of my first post. :P
But I'm glad we understand each other now.
Suppressed Science? (Score:2)
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=254000146591&topic=16411 [facebook.com]
That is a copy of this site that seems to have gone offline recently:
http://www.suppressedscience.net/ [suppressedscience.net]
Suppressed? :-) At the very least by marketplace forces? :-(
See also:
http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090308132014/http://suppressedscience.net/physics.html [waybackmachine.org]
http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090309114648/http://suppressedscience.net/ [waybackmachine.org]
Stuff I wrote building on those ideas:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/to-james-randi-on-skepticism-about-mainstream [pdfernhout.net]
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People like that will latch onto anything, it's like the people that take a tiny gap in some evolutionary chain and blow it up as a huge missing link, evolution is bunk and creationism is truth. They'll just pick something else and it'll go on, just like they've retconned that the earth is round and orbits the sun, not flat and the center of the universe. It doesn't matter how far science comes, someone will always manage to shoehorn in their religion.
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Well, I admit I am disappointed. If they've explained it, they've explained it. But it woulda been cool if physics had had to changeâ¦
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Occam's Razor is useful for making determinations about what is true among several possible explanations.
It is not, however, useful for helping you come up with the explanations in the first place. As was needed here.
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Also, it's just plain cool when applied math explains away the mysteries of the world. To my perspective as a layperson, it's incredible how many layers of ingenuity piled up to enable someone to explore and explain some odd phenomenon bouncing off a craft hurtling through space.
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Yeah, it's not very exciting, no big theory of physics disproven, no shiny new theory neede to explain this phenomenon. Yet, if you consider the options listed:
1 and 2 are actually pretty far fetched, and when the effect was detected, number 3 was estimated to be not quite enough. Yet someone though "Those estimates aren't quite good enough", and tried a really simple model that I'd wager a great deal many people here have some
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No, clearly this is part of the great conspiracy known as NASA! They're hiding something, I tell you! It's the aliens, the same ones that helped them fake the moon landing! So yeah, this "finding" has to be part of the great cover-up. It couldn't be simply the laws of physics.
(this is the commenter's physician: a sedative has been administered, and he's been returned to his padded cell)
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Your malicious disregard for basic communication makes me want to side with Hairyfeet on principle alone.
Also, you should know that I am a little embarrassed that I took the time to 6 posts in the thread you linked. The fact that you seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of every post you've ever made here leads me to believe you take the goal of winning at internet way to seriously.
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Comes in handy when trolls like Hairyfeet screwup & troll me,
But probably not too helpful in talking to people.
APK, who are you? I apologize for my ignorance, but I'm not certain who you are and why people would seek to defame you. You should know that your anonymous postings and disjointed writing style make you seem less "persecuted intellectual" and more "schizophrenic homeless dude under a bridge".
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Re:tao of physics?? (Score:5, Insightful)
So it seems, the mystery ain't a mystery after all...
That tends to happen when you solve them.
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So it seems, the mystery ain't a mystery after all...
That tends to happen when you solve them.
and like usual, the butler did it!
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So it seems, the mystery ain't a mystery after all...
That tends to happen when you solve them.
and like usual, the butler did it!
Ah, ha. But, who is the Butler?
When I first saw the splash paragraph I was expecting a Commodore PET was figuring into this somehow.
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Ah, ha. But, who is the Butler?
The radar dish
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So Radar was the butler too. That actually makes sense. Now to get hawkeye and pierce to openthe still.
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Most certainly not. Jeeves was a gentleman's gentleman, a valet, not a butler.
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It's always in the last place you looked.
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Once you find it, why would you keep looking? Ergo, the place you found it is *always* going to be the last place you looked.
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Real men know how to butle themselves.
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Re:tao of physics?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly, unless it's one of the big unsolved problems or it takes a PhD to even understand the problem it's probably been solved before. We had a math book that so barely mentioned perfect numbers, I spent a lot of time reaching a result that I felt was "new". Eventually it turns out I had recreated a proof that Euler did in the 18th century. At least it wasn't the Greek, every time you feel bright then you learn someone already figured this out 2000 years ago.
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Hey, you did the work from scratch and that's what counts.
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Notice how in that sentence he was talking about the Greeks.
Re:tao of physics?? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, he said "at least it wasn't the Greeks", because of how often he finds out that something he thought was novel was discovered by them. Which would be 2000 years ago. Merely 300 years ago is better. Thus "at least it wasn't the Greeks".
Got it now?
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Now, if only I could find where I put the answer booklet for members of congress...
It's in your wallet.
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To futher clarify ColdWetDog's answer.
The answer booklet is gray/green hand has a picture of a dead president, or a Founding Father on it.
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Pretty hard to fit any of those, except for credit cards, into your wallet.
How *do* you fit an intern in there, anyways?
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Pretty hard to fit any of those, except for credit cards, into your wallet. How *do* you fit an intern in there, anyways?
You tell them to get in there and make it their problem to find a way.
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It's just global warming (for a tiny globe) :)
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Because the "room" they are shading is rather large, think universe size.
Also, since the Phong shading did the trick why bother?
Re:Phong shading? (Score:4, Informative)
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That is an easy one to answer. And the answer is no.
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There is the Solar Sail [wikipedia.org]
On earth, you can play around with Crookes radiometer [wikipedia.org]
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A solar sail wouldn't accomplish what he was proposing. The CMB is (as far as a solar sail would be concerned) pretty much the same in all directions. In a universe with no stars and only the CMB, a solar sail would go nowhere.
Also, a Crookes radiometer isn't a good example, as it requires a partial-vaccume to work. They don't work in the hard-vaccume of space.
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Re:Stupid scientists (Score:4, Funny)
Fucking Phong Shading. How does it work?
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The important part is not the mass, but the momentum. Total momentum is conserved, therefore to accelerate (i.e. to increase your momentum) you'll have to emit something carrying the momentum difference (because in space, there's nothing else you could transfer your momentum to). One way is just to throw some matter out, which then of course has backwards momentum, thus giving you forward momentum (remember, the sum must be zero). But radiation also has momentum, therefore you can also emit radiation backwa
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Exactly. Photons have the worst case energy/momentum ratio. The advantage of photon drives is not energy efficiency (because they're completely the opposite), it's that you don't need reaction mass.
So if you only need minute amounts of thrust, and have some long-lasting but light-weight source of energy (like an RTG), you can thrust basically forever.
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An ion engine needs a source of energy and reaction mass. It's a very efficient use of reaction mass, but nevertheless. So for the same energy source, you can thrust longer with a photon drive.
Massive thrust is not the point of a photonic drive because they suck at it. Ion drives aren't great at thrust either, but they do have more. So it depends on the particular application which one would be better, though I think for most things we're doing in the near term ion drives are better.
Re:Excuse my ignorance (Score:4, Informative)
The WORST thing is light, because light has so very little momentum for so much energy.
Unless of course the light is free. The solar constant is about 1 kW/m**2, so solar sails get 1 N per 150,000 m**2, or a circle of about 250 m diameter.
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Photons may not have mass, but they do carry momentum, and that's what counts.
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You mean Pushing Ice, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushing_Ice [wikipedia.org]