7th Graders Find Large Cave On Mars 139
A newly discovered cave on Mars was found as the result of an interesting crowdsourcing project. As EMB Numbers writes, "CNET news reports that 'the science class from Evergreen Middle School in Cottonwood, Calif., found the opening while working on a research project with the Mars Space Flight Facility run out of Arizona State University in Tempe. ... The students examined more than 200 images of Mars taken with the Thermal Emission Imaging System (Themis), an instrument on NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter.' The only other similar opening near the volcano was found in 2007, when Glen Cushing, a scientist with the US Geological Survey, published a research paper on the surface anomalies. The opening is estimated to be 620 by 520 feet and the hole to be at least 380 feet deep."
Just kidding, folks. (Score:5, Interesting)
I looked at the pictures, and it seems that they had a bug on the lens.
In all seriousness, though, I wonder how they can determine the depth of the hole, just from the surface characteristics?
Re:Just kidding, folks. (Score:5, Informative)
They say "at least"; I'd take that to mean "if it was any less deep than that, we'd see some trace of the bottom".
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They were using thermal imaging, not visible light.
Re:Just kidding, folks. (Score:5, Informative)
They were using thermal imaging, not visible light.
ok, to revise then:
I would think that by using the image to get the angle of the sun striking the surface of Mars that they could say that if it was any shallower than that the light from the sun would Heat Up part of the bottom of the cave. Therefore since they see no heat from the bottom it must be deeper than the minimum.
Happy, mister snippy pants?
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Infrared radiation follows the same rules as visible light, being just another part of electromagnetic spectrum. The grandparent's logic still holds.
Re:Just kidding, folks. (Score:4, Funny)
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In all seriousness, though, I wonder how they can determine the depth of the hole, just from the surface characteristics?
Trigonometry?
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Did you see the original image [asu.edu]? The hole is about 9x11 pixels square. That’s a pretty rough guess, if it’s what they’re working off.
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Presumably they used one of the other dozen or so scientific instruments in orbit around mars to examine the site. The image they showed us on the site was just the one the 7th graders were examining when they found the cave.
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If they had a better image then why didn’t they include it in the press report?
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No time to shop out the Martian camp site.
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I looked at the pictures, and it seems that they had a bug on the lens.
In all seriousness, though, I wonder how they can determine the depth of the hole, just from the surface characteristics?
Simple (somewhat) ... take two pictures at different times of the day. See how much the shadow / dark spot changes of the walls. Assuming vertical (or nearly so) walls then it's (somewhat) a math problem...
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Assuming vertical wall, you won’t be able to see them. You’re looking down.
Plus, the camera is using thermal imaging, so a moving shadow wouldn’t show up well.
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Assuming vertical wall, you won’t be able to see them. You’re looking down.
Plus, the camera is using thermal imaging, so a moving shadow wouldn’t show up well.
With any spheroid looking down unless you're directly beneath the camera there will be angled views.
As for thermal imaging - overlooked that part...
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True, but I still am betting that the window of opportunity to get the right angle would simply be too small.
Re:Just kidding, folks. (Score:5, Informative)
Why do they call a vertical hole a cave?
Don't caves typically have roof/ceilings?
Its just a hole, lava vent.
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From TFA, what they've found is a hole in what is believed to be the roof of a hollowed out lava tube, ie cave.
Appropriately, the image in the article is names skylight1.jpg.
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For a second there, I thought you were saying 'Don't caves typically have drawings?'
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Somehow I read that in there on the first read also. :)
Re:Just kidding, folks. (Score:5, Informative)
You also know the angle of the sun at the time of the photo and measure the lit (or unlit) area below the hole, that'll give you an approximation of the depth.
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You also know the angle of the sun at the time of the photo and measure the lit (or unlit) area below the hole
Check the photo, it’s a featureless black splotch. I posted a couple of links up above.
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Wow (Score:5, Funny)
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The opening is estimated to be 620 feet by 520 feet and the hole to be at least 380 feet deep. Wow! That beats even goatse!
I'm sure you'll be moderated funny (as you should) ... however if you reach 5 then I'll know others, too - have suffered the same horrible fate I once did. It'll help heal the mental scars I still carry to this day...
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Wow! That beats even goatse!
Parents should teach their kids to keep their THEMIS away from such things. Most 7th graders are just beginning to understand their instruments at that age.
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The opening is estimated to be 620 feet by 520 feet and the hole to be at least 380 feet deep. Wow! That beats even goatse!
So what are the dimensions on goatse?
these kids today (Score:5, Funny)
Re:these kids today (Score:5, Funny)
Get off my Martian lawn!!
Re:these kids today (Score:5, Funny)
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In a dry ice storm!
RTFA... (Score:2)
Apparently they want a closer look:
The students have submitted their site as a candidate for imaging by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera on NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. HiRISE can image the surface at about 30 centimeters (12 inches) per pixel, which may allow a look inside the hole in the ground.
With a resolution of 0.3 meters... I hope they share their results if they are able to get the site imaged.
Re:RTFA... (Score:4, Insightful)
That was from the University press release [asu.edu], by the way, not the cnet article.
Is this where (Score:5, Funny)
Wow .. Grade 7 has changed (Score:5, Insightful)
When I was in grade 7 we learned about nothing even remotely as interesting as this. I think we looked at plant cells under a microscope.
It is pretty amazing that students can work with data like this, with computers and tools that enable it. Makes me wish I could go back to school and work on some of the stuff they teach in basic courses, particularly in high school.
Kids these days! (are damned lucky!)
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If you read TFA, the kids were trying to find Lava Tubes around Pavonis Mons, a volcano on Mars.
It seems to me that the forces of vulcanism, pushing up lava with only 1/3 gravity MIGHT cause them to form differently from those on Earth, which is why Olympus Mons is much taller than any volcano here.
There is a cave found recently in Mexico with Crystal formations unlike anything ever seen before, outside of that I don't know how much interesting stuff there still is in caves on Earth.
I've been to Mammoth Cav
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I've been to Mammoth Cave in Kentucky, and none of the caves there are 5-600 feet wide, tall, or anything.
The Parks Service begs to differ. Would length fall into your definition of anything?
Naica, huge crystals (Score:1)
You are talking about Naica, an impressive cave with no life conditions. A friend of mine was a producer for all the documentaries made a couple of years ago.
http://www.naica.com.mx/english/index.htm
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Some people would think that looking at cells under a microscope is more interesting than geological formations. Are these caves significantly different from those found on earth?
Are those cells your looking at significantly different from those found on Mars?
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I kinda suspect that this is a function of the teacher's willingness to reach out to the university and actively participate in the science than it is any kind of sign of the times.
I would wager that most 7th grade classes still look at the cells in an onion skin or whatnot.
I further wager that 25 years ago there was a 7th grade science class designing experiments for the STS-51 (Challenger) flight, just no /. to report on it.
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Wait, we are supposed to give more money to schools where teachers are getting robbed at knifepoint? That doesn't seem like a great investment to me...
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Re:Wow .. Grade 7 has changed (Score:4, Interesting)
The final was a shuttle simulation. The class was broken into teams. One team build robotic arms to perform actions in space, another was the crew that spent the night in an old room converted to a shuttle simulation, and a few other teams I can't remember. I was on the media team, and it was our job to talk to the different crews and make press releases. We released them on K12 newgroups. Back in 1994, this was really awesome, and I had no idea what we were doing. Little did we know, the teacher had some students from another of his classes send us an email claiming to be from the FAA advising us to take our vehicle out of airspace, or something to that effect. It was 1994, I had no internet savvy -- this was before spam and everything -- so I took it to the teacher. He laughed.
It was a great class. Go Mr. Donelson at Gahanna Lincoln!
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I think my parents said the same thing about me. Now I think I'll go pick up some non-credit classes at the local community college. ;)
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What exactly stops you from doing this right now? Except for socially conditioned pointless embarrassment? :) :)
Really. Go live the life of your dreams. People find other people more attractive if they are independent, anyway.
More pics (Score:5, Funny)
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Yeah, you have to credit a troll who gets you to click a link you _expect_ to be goatse.
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NASA has decided to call it the Cave of Caerbannog.
.
Who dripped Solder on Mars (Score:2)
Looks like someone was Soldering and started just NorthEast of this "cave".
Although the "Cave" looks like a "Hole" to me, still cover it with a UV filtering Geodesic Dome, pressurize it and I know where to drop the first colony.
Having some of that Water Ice, and CO2 Ice nearby wouldn't hurt either.
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Having some of that Water Ice, and CO2 Ice nearby wouldn't hurt either.
See I grew in south jersey, where they borrow slang from philadelphia and I always wondered why people were so interested in italian water ice [wikipedia.org] or, as we called it, "water ice". I mean its nice on a summer day, but there's more to life than frozen flavored water.
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Given the time I usually redact them.
Is this more of a British or an American English thing?
It's the site of the first Mars colony (Score:1)
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You kid, but NASA had plans for inhabiting Lava Tubes on the Moon, to shield astronauts from Radiation, you'd think Lava tubes on Mars would offer similar protection.
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Plus, you just cap the hole with a dome and you've got a nice, pressurisable habitat with a skylight.
It's only a matter of time... (Score:2)
...until students start taking field trips to other planets, as seen on Spaceship Earth in Epcot Center.
Question (Score:2)
Re:Question (Score:5, Funny)
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Spoiled kids (Score:5, Funny)
In my day, a fieldtrip consisted of nothing more than going outside -- in a field. The only caves we saw were the ones we had school in, and those were shared with the grizzly bears. If you've never seen your best friend's head get popped like a grape in the jaws of a grizzly, you've got it easy. It wasn't all bad though. Whenever we got a new transfer student, we'd convince them to yell into the cave really loud to "scare away the bats." Man, that was hilarious.
Anyway, yeah.. Mars.
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> In my day, a fieldtrip consisted of nothing more than going outside -- in a field.
You were lucky to have a field. We weren't allowed outside... /cue Monty Python skit...
In other news... (Score:1)
Look carefully ... (Score:2)
I found it first (Score:3, Funny)
Opposite side of the planet as the face on Mars.
Vvv...Vvvv..vvvrRvvROOOM.... (Score:2)
'Daddy, can we roll the Lander into the cave? Read fast?'
'But Will-- Dr. Robinson is standing in the entrance!'
It's not a cave (Score:2)
Just looking at the pictures one can plainly see a string of sharp edged depressions (or pits) having a shadow on the left rim. The circled area of this image is simply another one of those depressions which happens to be slightly smaller in diameter than the width of the shadow. It is therefore obvious that this is just another one of those depressions. In order to be a cave it would need to travel UNDERNEATH the ground.
And The NASA Scientists Are All Asking Themselves (Score:5, Funny)
Are You Smarter Than A 7th Grader?
Cannon (Score:5, Informative)
That's no cave. That's the opening to the underground cannon the Martians used to fire their invasion cylinders at Earth during the opposition of the last years of the 19th century.
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Quoting Robin: (Score:3, Funny)
Seriously offtopic (Score:3, Funny)
Y'know what I find frustratingly unfair about virtually ALL Internet comment-posting systems?
They all have a "submit" button, but there's never a "dominate" button ...
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With a small Greasemonkey script, you can completely change that. :D
Cottonwood? Really? (Score:2)
I live near Cottonwood, and I never suspected they taught anything beyond logging, ranching and truck driving.
Great job, kids. I really have to reconsider Tehama County schools.
Wow.
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Ahem. That's SHASTA County schools. Unless they're on the wrong side of Cottonwood Creek.
-- old Redding boy
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Actually I retract that correction. Evergreen is indeed on the wrong side of the creek. Shasta Co. has some catching up to do, clearly...
Put the brilliant kids to work on their website (Score:2)
Curses! (Score:2)
The secret Martian cave from which I was going to launch my plot to take over the Earth has been discovered! My plans are foiled! And I would have gotten away with it, if not for these meddling kids!
the real force at work here (Score:1)
Return of the stone age (Score:1)
Launching Pad (Score:2)
It's one of those launching pads for flying sourcers. They just forgot to put a cover on this one, or perhaps the capping mechanism jammed.
Re:Interesting location (Score:4, Funny)
Diametrically opposite to the face on mars.
Perhaps we will be seeing National Enquirer headlines about "The Giant Martian Anus" soon?
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That joke is so old it's even been on Futurama
I honestly wasn't aware of that but in retrospect, it does seem pretty obvious.
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unpaid slavery
...as opposed to, what...paid slavery?
slavery
...because these people are being forced to do it against their will. Speaking of will...
if you will
Well I won't! Is it still slavery?
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I usually stay away from trolls, but.. are you really suggesting that American education is akin to slavery?
I wonder what an 18th century slave in the American south would think of that comparison..
How about jury duty, is that also slavery? I'm sure all those people picking cotton were just thankful they didn't have to sit in a classroom or jury box all day. Imagine the horror.
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Just because previous versions of slavery were it worse doesn't change the definition.
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They didn't cut the budget.
Did you know there is a space plane in orbit? how about the many,many other project going on?
Parts of constellation got scrapped, and for good reason.
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They didn't cut the budget.
The parts dealing with going to the moon did. [slashdot.org] Though not all of it was cut and some parts did get more money. Seems like the joke went over a few peoples heads (seeing how it was marked down...)
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The total budget is still larger, and thank goodness they're getting rid of Operation Lets-Repeat-Apollo-And-Act-Like-That-Means-Something which was preventing other actually new and interesting things from being accomplished.
BTW I got that you were joking, but it wasn't funny. It seems like there could be a joke premised on NASA hiring 7th graders, so maybe try working on it. Or not.
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Ya, the USAF gets to tag everything with "Classified". :)
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