Steps Toward a Universal Flu Vaccine 177
Plasmoid writes "The NYTimes is reporting that scientists have starting developing what could turn out to be a 'universal' flu vaccine. They created antibody proteins that can neutralize different strains of the influenza virus, including the deadly H5N1 bird flu, the virus behind the 1918 epidemic, and common seasonal strains. These new antibodies target part of the virus that is shared between different strains and thus appear to be broadly effective. However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution. An article on nature.com describes the work further."
Just incase anyone needs an update (Score:5, Insightful)
Influenza [wikipedia.org]
In humans, common symptoms of the disease are chills, fever, pharyngitis, muscle pains, severe headache, coughing, weakness, and general discomfort.[1] In more serious cases, influenza causes pneumonia, which can be fatal, particularly in young children and the elderly. Although it is often confused with the common cold, influenza is a much more severe disease and is caused by a different type of virus.[2] Influenza can produce nausea and vomiting, especially in children,[1] but these symptoms are more characteristic of the unrelated gastroenteritis, which is sometimes called "stomach flu" or "24-hour flu".[3]
We geeks often neglect our health, especially during the cold and flu season (Which is a prime time to stay inside, Frag noobs, write badass scripts, Watch Babylon 5, etc). Make sure you take all the necessary precautions [wikipedia.org] to keep your wetware virus-free!
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I don't know what you're trying to say, but we geeks are actually taking much better care of our health in this respect than non-geeks, simply because we tend to spend a bit less time in the company of other people, and more time indo
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Provided they don't have children to bring home contagions............
Oh wait this is /.!
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Yeah. Like not driving a car because you could crash, instead of learning how to drive.
Your body has a immune system. That system can be trained. Kissing and sex are the best training. Now tell me you do not like that idea... ;)
But on a more serious note: The body is a machine, made for complex thinking and long running/hunting. But it need a very specific set of resources and be kept from rusting in, to do its work.
You know. Not much short carboydrates and saturated fats. But non-denaturalized proteins, lo
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No, they don't land you in jail. As my teacher said: It's not cheating that will get you an F in this test. It's getting caught. ^^
That was a very enlightening moment.
After all, successful cheating means a great deal of cleverness. If it gets you where you want to be (and stay there), then it's as good as anything other.
Hey, I just noticed, that this too is a way of hacking the system in an unconventional way.
Laws are only an agreement of a group of people, to ensure that you can work together. Right and wr
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I wouldn't call that neglecting, good luck getting the virus in the first place if you don't meet anyone.
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Or get a mac, Linux, whatever UNIX, so on so on, people use to shout how they can't get any viruses.
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Or use a toilet as your working surface. Think of the time saved!
vaccine even possible? (Score:3, Insightful)
some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution.
Experts in what? Theology?
So either evolution is perfect and has already done it or it can't be done?
Riiiight. Evolution != god.
FUCKIN' A (Score:1, Funny)
Slashdotters really really need to get over the obsession with evolution, there is no such thing. How many fuckin' times do I have to tell you pimply kids that? If it was real, you wouldn't have pimples...
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Man o' man... those pimply faced kids got a whole lot of cavin' action - if ya know what I mean.
Re:vaccine even possible? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:vaccine even possible? (Score:5, Funny)
That must be why the human body didn't come with a vaccine for smallpox either. Oh wait...
Actually, in history, two humans have instantaneously developed full immunity to smallpox through the correct antibodies. Sadly, before anyone could work out they were immune to it, they died of the common cold.
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The human body doesn't come with a vaccine for anything. What the human body did come with was antibodies that were effective against smallpox. All the vaccine did, all any vaccine does, was encourage production of the cells that made these antibodies. So when your body came in contact with smallpox, or whatever else you were vaccinated against, it was already primed for the fight.
What the article seems to be implying is that in this case, there are no naturally occurring antibodies to be produced. If
Re:innoculation or vaccine? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:innoculation or vaccine? (Score:4, Informative)
They have never been toxic, ever.
The mercury was about 3-5 Nano Grams with a half life of 4 days. Completely undetectable in 30 days.
Just an FYI
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The key word in that wall of text is "chiropractic". Chiropractors are not doctors. By and large they are quacks trying to cure things by supposedly realigning the vertebrae (which they don't in fact).
I've heard the arguments pro and con, but have a personal anecdote. For about 6 months of my life, I had excruciating back pain. It got much worse when laying down, so my nightly routine was to eat four Advil or a couple of Alleve and maybe some sleeping pills and try to get a couple of hours of sleep before the little gremlin shoved the rusty knife into my spine. I went to several well-respected doctors who gave me painkillers and muscle relaxants and told me that it would go away on its own - but it di
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They're not doctors.
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They're not doctors.
Careful there. In some jurisdictions, including mine (I just looked it up), they are indeed licensed as doctors. Although you're entitled to your own opinion about what that actually means, the people who get to make the official decision have said (here) that they are doctors.
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Exactly.
I'm not a chiropractor (I'm a massage therapist on the side).
Fact is that a bone being 1/16th out of position and "stuck" is pulling one or more muscles and making them spasm. All you have to do is get the bone to slide back in it's normal position and everything can relax. I can massage a muscle forever but if it is attached to a bone in the wrong position, my work won't do any good.
I know a couple of chiro moves and tho I can't use them during a professional (aka paid) massage, I have fixed two
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However some things make a lot of sense that seem squirrelly- like adjusting your back to fix a stomach problem- because the nerves leading to your stomach were being pinched.
Well, it's not helped by certain chiropractors who claim it can cure almost anything. A neighbor once told me, with a perfectly straight face, that he could have cured my appendicitis and that he'd had good luck with viruses. I can understand the basis behind mis-aligned bones pinching nerves and causing pain and other symptoms, but I'm not willing to throw out germ theory just yet.
From an evolutinary standpoint... (Score:5, Insightful)
However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution.
Firstly adding to your point (and according to the theory,) evolution is only "perfect" over an infinite time frame. The fact that there is no universal antibody could mean one of two things: the time frame was too short or there's a reason why the human body doesn't want a universal solution, and I can think of at least one big one.
The human body has thousands of known symbiotic relationships and potentially thousands or millions of unknown ones. Most of these are bacterium (or more rarely viruses) that do something to help the human body. The digestive tract has literally trillions of non-human cells within it. There is even an organ who's use (which was previously unknown) is to store 'good' bacteria when the body is fighting other harmful invaders. I'm speaking of course of the appendix - the one organ which literally oozes symbiosis. The human body might not 'want' a universal solution as those which are adapted to allow the potential for additional symbiotic relationships before ejecting them have a better chance at thriving as every tiny advantage helps.
I'm not saying this is a step in the wrong direction and I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing because the vast majority if not all viruses of this strain are harmful to humans at this point, but to say that evolution couldn't come up with a solution therefore there isn't one makes a ton of huge assumptions which probably aren't all valid.
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Aren't modified flu viruses used to perform "gene therapy" with some rare genetic disorders. What if someone did get the perfect "universal flu vaccine", then found out they had a genetic disorder that could only be fixed using gene therapy?
I always wondered whether viruses were deliberately created by the cells in all sorts of creatures as a way of spreading beneficial modifications - the only disadvantage being it sometimes ends up reaching the wrong species.
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Even over an infinite time span, natural selection may not be perfect in dealing with an enemy which is evolving too!
Re:vaccine even possible? (Score:5, Informative)
So either evolution is perfect and has already done it or it can't be done?
Keep in mind that every single vaccine out there merely uses your natural immune system. All vaccines do is present the immune system with a target, then the immune system does it's work. That's it. Vaccines absolutely rely on the immune system. So yes, if the immune system absolutely can't make you immune to every flu virus, then we can't make a vaccine that could.
A non-vaccine based approach might work, like the antiviral cocktails used to treat AIDS, but that's horribly inefficient, would require constant medication, and could end up making superflu. Really the best solutions all end with priming the immune system to do the dirty work.
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I think the argument against its possibility is pretty simple.
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5. Specific immunity is sufficient in the overwhelming number of cases, making there be no real selection for natural immunity.
Antibodies are randomly constructed until our body stumbles upon one that happens to stick to the outside of the flu virus. It doesn't matter to our immune system where it sticks, just that it does.
Since the flu mutates very rapidly, it's likely that our immune system will stumble across antibodies for a region that changes all the time.
While our brains would prefer a general immun
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Evolution is not really the mechanism for developing antibodies. It's also normal for a person to be immune or resistant to viruses they've had , but successfully fought off. In fact, vaccines rely on human antibody production to be effective. Even if we can develop a antibody in the lab that fights all influenza strains, there's no guarantee that the human body can be coaxed into producing that antibody on its own.
The problems with making a universal vaccine are *because* of evolution's weakness, not be
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If God meant Man to fly He would have given us wings. So don't bother inventing airplanes.
If Evolution meant Man to fly it would have evolved us wings. So don't bother inventing airplanes.
Both pretty silly arguments!
If Evolution meant Man to be immune to the flu, we would be, so don't bother trying.
Equally silly and is theological because it treats Evolution as if it was perfect and all-knowing, i.e. God.
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Not only that, but (Score:4, Informative)
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Weird logic (Score:4, Insightful)
"However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution. "
Using this logic we shouldn't have come up with vaccines for smallpox, polio or rabies either.
Re:Weird logic (Score:5, Informative)
"However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution. "
Using this logic we shouldn't have come up with vaccines for smallpox, polio or rabies either.
We were able to come up with vaccines specifically because the body can come up with an antibody solution. Those vaccines (all vaccines) work by stimulating the production of the same antibodies it would produce to fight an infection.
The challenge here is to develop a vaccine that causes the body to produce antibodies that it would NOT produce in response to an infection. This vaccine must cause the body to produce antibodies that are more general than those it would produce for any specific flu, but still specific enough that they won't attack anything beneficial.
I'm not a doctor. But I did take health in 9th grade.
Cat and Mouse (Score:3, Insightful)
... or not attack the beneficial ones for long enough to cause serious long term effects. Kind of like the viral equivalent of antibiotics, right?
Can you say "superbug?"
Let's
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Using this logic we shouldn't have come up with vaccines for smallpox, polio or rabies either.
The body does come up with antibody solutions to those diseases... it just does it a little slower than you'd like after the first infection (IE the virus spreads and you get sick and die before your body identifies an antibody that works and starts pumping it out to make you immune.)
With the flu, you catch one and become immune to it, but the next year a different strain comes out and you're not immune to it. Your antibodies don't recognize the newer form and you're not immune. Fortunately that doesn't h
Mod point inflation (Score:2)
Too many mod points out there if things like this are getting to the top.
So much for the meaning of "universal" (Score:3, Funny)
I found this quote rather comical.
"If you have one or two that cover the vast majority of isolates, I wouldn't be ashamed to call that a universal vaccine."
So, universal now means "vast majority." So I guess, to really refer to universal, we'll have to say "actually universal." Hm.
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If you have one or two that cover the vast majority of isolates, I wouldn't be ashamed to call that a universal vaccine.
I wouldn't be ashamed to take this large wodge of money and get my name in all the papers, but I reserve the right to be contrite, abashed, and sheepish. Sheepish, especially. That costs extra. First, you have to pay for the sheep - but then the shame takes care of itself!
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Heh... well you have a point, but that's a pop culture world, not a scientific world.
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In the English world, words mean the same thing universally. But, then, that's only in the English world :)
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the human body has been unable to come up with.... (Score:5, Insightful)
However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution.
No offence, I love the human body and all, but there are LOTS of things it has 'been unable to come up with', including the much needed ability to render stupid people unconscious by concentrating hard.
Being part of a system of evolution is not a panacea for disease; quite the opposite. Almost every positive thing you can say about our resistance to disease comes directly or indirectly off the back of people who didn't have a particular type of resistance 'taking one for the team', so to speak. There's nothing wrong with hunting for cures that DON'T involve the mass extinctions of the genetically unfortunate. There'll be plenty of time for it to all work itself out.
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Man, I really hope scientists are working on a vaccine for that. That alone would advance humanity much further than curing cancer.
Yeah, and if we could keep stupid people out of the picture, we'd probably have a universal cancer cure in record time anyway.
The human body is S-M-R-T (Score:1, Insightful)
Well if the human body hasn't figured it out by itself, then what chance do we have.
I don't why we invented armour, our skin should have learned how to protect itself against sharp stabby knives by now.
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I don't why we invented armour, our skin should have learned how to protect itself against sharp stabby knives by now.
Funny, but not really helpful. Your evolved defense against a knife is: avoid getting stabbed. That's far more effective than avoiding the flu. And also knives are a much newer thing that haven't caused much evolution yet, wheras viruses seem to have been around a lot longer and did shape evolution.
The human body is pretty smart, especially on a molecular level. We don't have machines yet that rival the efficiency of many enzymes found in your body. The old adage that the dumbest kidney is far smarter
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With some notable exceptions like the blind spot in the eye, the kneecap, or our teeth. Also, why is the liver the only organ which can grow back? Why don't we have limbs that can regrow? Why can't we control our own immune system consciously, for example to designate HI and Influenza viruses as hostile?
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And also knives are a much newer thing that haven't caused much evolution yet...
Nature's [wikipedia.org] knives [wikipedia.org]; Many [wikipedia.org] and [wikipedia.org] varied [wikipedia.org].
Some Experts Question... (Score:5, Insightful)
> some experts question whether a universal
> vaccine of this kind is even possible, since
> the human body has been unable to come up with
> an antibody solution
First, the researchers don't claim a universal anti-virus, simply a broad spectrum one.
Those nay-saying, have no lab data, those doing the research do. Its effective in animal studies and human studies will soon begin.
The human body does not search for the best antibody, or the most universal one. It simply throws stuff out there and sees what sticks (figuratively and literally).
This approach goes after an area on the virus that is hard to reach because of its structure.
Quoting TFA:
" The flu virus uses the lollipop-shaped hemagglutinin spike to invade nose and lung cells. There are 16 known types of spikes, H1 through H16.
The spikeâ(TM)s tip mutates constantly, which is why flu shots have to be reformulated each year. But the team found a way to expose the spikeâ(TM)s neck, which apparently does not mutate, and picked antibodies that clamped onto it. "
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You're right - the researchers don't make that claim at all.
From TFA in Nature (emphasis mine):
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Quoting TFA:
" The flu virus uses the lollipop-shaped hemagglutinin spike to invade nose and lung cells.
That right there explains why the flu is so contagious with kids - you stick a lollipop in front of them and presto, they're all over it.
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This approach goes after an area on the virus that is hard to reach because of its structure.
Err, not really. Your body *could* produce antibodies to that region, but that region doesn't normally get your immune system very excited.
Flu has five primary antigenic sites that do provoke your immune system. Not surprisingly, these are hyper variable regions, hence the need to reformulate the vaccine every couple of years.
There are a standard set of tricks that you can use to force an immune response to particular part of a protein. For example, get rid of the stuff that normally provokes the immune
Human arrogance (Score:2)
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That's not human arrogance. Human arrogance is that we can create a universal drug.
It's Divine Arrogance which states that God/Nature/The Universe would have cured it if it was possible and that science has no business messing around with The Way Things Are (tm)
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It doesn't take millions of years for the body to create an antibody solution, generally it does it really fast. However the body keeps doing it for the specific strain and the strain is different each year.
The researchers have a huge advantage the body doesn't have, they can compare all the strains to find similarities and thus create a broad spectrum antibody.
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Is it just me, or does this statement seriously underestimate the millions and millions of years necessary (during which the majority of the population must die from the flu the entire time) necessary for evolution to come up with an "antibody solution"?
I think they're talking about the current human body as opposed to one in millions of years. Your immune system as it is now appears unable to prevent all flu viruses, maybe that's because of -current- inherent limitations on it, which is of course of interest to you right now. I don't think anyone would dispute that given enough time and natural selection, the immune system would be able to find a way.
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The evolution argument also assumes that antibodies know what the object of the exercise is. I did research on them, but was a chemist way back, and g
Universal Flu Vaccine (Score:2)
This is the second relatively invariant influenza target antigen identified now. The previous one being the M2 protein, which has given rise to great hopes of a universal flu vaccine [sciam.com].
As for which one seems more promising, I think we'll definitely see results from the M2-based work first. It has a substantial head start (I think there are some candidates in Phase II testing already), and it doesn't look like there are any fundamental obstacles popping up yet.
File it with 100 MPG carburetors (Score:2)
I was going for the tin-foil hat look, but I don't think I have enough caps... no pun intended.
I am legend vs terminator (Score:2)
It really seems odd to me that any stories dealing with genetics, vaccines, or medicine in general get the "iamlegend" tag. This one for example: no viruses are being artificially made, nor is there much gene splicing going on. The equivalent would be be like someone tagging "BASH 4.0 Released" as "terminator2000" or "skynet."
Benefits of Telecommuting (Score:2)
Besides the "clothing is optional" benefit, working from home greatly limits exposure to contagions.
Although going to the grocery store and seeing the checkout clerk wipe her nose is hard to avoid.
HIV vaccine is a cause for pessimisism (Score:2)
Speaking of vaccines (Score:2)
Go here and get some good info on vaccines and why they aren't dangerous:
http://quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/48f9db861d8a83f764792aa4b77990f8-29.html [quackcast.com]
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Uh, in case you are not aware, I Am Legend is a work of FICTION.
How do you know? It isn't 2012 yet!
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A little skepticism is good, but remember:
Books/Movies != Real life
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You're right...that silly Jules Verne, actually thought we'd be up to the moon someday. HAHAHA
Next all those weirdo reading books about artificial intelligence would actually expect us to do research and developing neural nets.
And cloning, you can't possibly ever make a genetic duplicate. I mean come on, someone else walking around with your same genes that wasn't born at the same time as you? The odds must be astronomical.
The point is, imagination and wondering and writing about what could be, can lead
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Sure, books divided by movies do not equal real life, but I am legend was a book AND a movie.
Book + movie = totally real.
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Playing gods again, are we?
We kind of have been ever since we mastered fire. Humans have never gone with the natural flow. Where have you been for the last million years?
Have you seen a movie called "Terminator?" Better stop using your computer.
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What do you mean playing? I AM a God.
;)
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Well, considering that my current bout of flu is already making me feel like a mindless zombie...
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If you had actually read the article, you might have noticed that the antibodies discovered are in fact naturally produced in the human body and not the result of "playing God". Unfortunately the body doesn't seem to produce enough of these antibodies to result in immunity; probably because the influenza virus has distracting structures that are rapidly mutating. The researchers are proposing stimulating the immune system to produce more antibodies for the non-mutating parts of the virus by making a vaccine
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Playing god? When someone resuscitates you from cardiac arrest, they are playing god...should we stop?
Get a bypass surgery? you are playing god.
Now to you see why that's a nonsense statement?
Re:is flight impossible too? (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't screw with bears... at least not this one!
http://community.atom.com/Post/An-Ode-to-Voytek-The-Most-Badass-Soldier-in-WWII/03EFBFFFF0182C7B8000800A747EC [atom.com]
Polish 2nd Ammendment...the right to arm bears!!! (Score:2)
First, let me say: Many thanks for that link!!! :-)
Second, let me say: OMGZ!1!11! and a resounding WTF??!?!?
Third: I for one, welcome our beer drinking, cigar smoking, mortar-round toting Army Bear overlords!!
That may be the most amazing thing I have read in quite a while.
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Is dying of the flu beneficial though and? (Score:2)
But there is considerable selection pressure to stop us dying of flu. Less so the development of flight
First off, we have to assume that a mutation leading to a certain flu free human is even possible. I'm not a bio guy by any stretch of the imagination but I would be willing to bet that there are some transformations from one gene to another that are essentially impossible.
Secondly, is there really considerable selection pressure to keep us from dying of the flu? That's really the question. It might actu
Maybe we were selected to die from the flu. (Score:2)
First off, we have to assume that a mutation leading to a certain flu free human is even possible. I'm not a bio guy by any stretch of the imagination but I would be willing to bet that there are some transformations from one gene to another that are essentially impossible.
Secondly, is there really considerable selection pressure to keep us from dying of the flu? That's really the question. It might actually be that dying from the flu could have been a positive force for humanity in some weird way. Like,
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The selection pressure is satisfied when our bodies come up with an antibody for a specific strain of the flu. In the overwhelming number of cases, the flu isn't fatal, leaving the human without general immunity to go on and reproduce.
Our immune system doesn't know that the flu is a family of viruses, it just fighting the virus that's currently infecting the body. As soon as it can contain that one viru
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Paranoid conspiracy theories require some verifiable proof, especially when they directly contradict peer-reviewed and verified science so conspicuously.
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I'm going to simply respond to your rambling, seemingly paranoid post with a single [Citation Needed].
I for one believe the GP of this when they say that they cannot afford the housing they live in. No citation needed.
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Explain Smallpox, Polio, Hepatitis B, HPV, Chicken Pox, Measles, Mumps, and Rubella. It is not futile. You do it, or you risk dying from easily communicable diseases.
You're an idiot parroting "Vaccines are poison!" crap, who told you this, Jenny McCarthy?
Predjudice? No, that requires knowing nothing about you and making a rash judgment. You've plainly proved you're ignorant and little better than a wishful-thinking conspiracy theorist and deserve every flame fired
Re:Give me a break there, will ya? (Score:5, Informative)
I was fortunate enough to be working with general practitioners during the bird flu scare, and between high school biology and the catch-up courses being run for the doctors about bird flu at the time I have a decent working knowledge of the subject.
In brief: please provide links for your paranoid delusions, I'd enjoy the read.
The flu variant believed to be responsible for the 1918 pandemic killed by causing a cytokine storm (wiki it yourself) - the host immune system overreacts and kills the host. Of course this is most effective against otherwise healthy people with a strong immune system that can really kick some ass... against their own body.
Yes it is. It's widely studied. All flu viruses are of avian origin and most of them can't even infect pigs and humans, the secondary carriers. The ones that can can be very deadly against humans because while human-specific diseases can't be deadly enough to kill their hosts often or the virus won't have anywhere to live, avian flu can persist as a minor annoyance in bird populations then leap out to massacre some humans from time to time.
You suggest that the pharmaceutical industry has duped the entire medical profession into believing in a disease that doesn't even exist, and will inject the entire population with a potentially lethal disease causing agent, causing massive global economic collapse simply because they can get paid for every unit they produce? No comment.
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You and your facts...
well done.
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The funny thing is that you don't even need both stages. Once you vaccinate the 95% of the population than can accept the vaccine without health risks the other 5% benefit from herd immunity.
That's why I'm in favor of fixing up the smallpox vaccine and doing mass vaccinations if the risk of a terrorist attack is considered serious. That vaccine has all kinds of safety problems - it could cause major harm if you just roll it out universally.
Instead you just vaccinate the 90% of the population that can tole
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You are a moron, and should be quarantined on an island with all the other people who, in the face of decades of research findings to the contrary, know goddamned well that vaccines work and have led to a healthier populace overall.
You'd probably thrive for generations, mistaking this for a vindication of your dunderheaded beliefs--until someone from civilized society visited, sneezed on you, and watched you all succumb in a year.
Finally... a profitable busines??? Since when??? Vaccines have a tremendo
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Basing your paranoia around something that's factually false is probably not a good idea.
The bird flu is a variant of the influenza virus.
BSE is a piron, a virus-like protein that has no nucleic material.
Now, both of these things spread more easily due to high-density farming techniques, but they're still a virus and a piron, respectively.
You are a liar. (Score:2)
"Vaccinating against intoxication is pointless. Actually, vaccination in general is futile. The people originally developing vaccination admitted this themselves in their late days but nobody listened to them once it became a profitable business. Ever wondered why you had such a hellish week after one or the other vaccination? How about where your allergy came from? Ever read the ingredients of a vaccine? Thought so. Never mind."
300 children out of every 1000 died from diseases. In the US it is not uncommon
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So why the fsck are you telling us? It says to contact the server administrator. Do you think they are reading every thread to see your complaint?