Fun Things To Do With a Math Or Science Degree? 564
bxwatso writes "My niece just took the ACT and got a perfect score on the math section. 25 years ago, when I took the test, the kids who aced the math section were pretty special. Her score, combined with straight A's so far in high school, suggest to me that she might be able to go to a top university (MIT?) based on her math aptitude. The rub is that she doesn't like math or science, even though she finds them easy. She doesn't want to be an engineer or scientist. I thought the folks here would be a great group to ask: What are some creative, not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science?"
Be a teacher (Score:3, Interesting)
My first girlfriend have like a perfect score (not just math, but 36 composite score) and are ranked in the top 5 in our class across 500+ students. She got a B.A. in elementary education last year. Probably an influence from her pastor.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Insightful)
what does "elementary education" have to do with math or science degrees?
in any case, if the ACTs are anything like the SATs then they're more of an indicator of general academic aptitude (including test-taking skills) rather than a measure of math ability, writing ability, etc. that's not to say that getting a perfect SAT/ACT score isn't impressive, and there's certainly a correlation between good students and good SAT/ACT scores. but they're not an indicator of intelligence--though they might be an indicator of college-preparedness. for instance, i have several friends who scored lower than me on the SATs who i know for a fact are much smarter than i am.
also, in my experience maths and sciences don't become very challenging until you get to about college undergraduate level material. and i don't think the SATs/ACTs really test for scholastic aptitude beyond 9th or 10th grade high school course material. a better indicator of whether a student excels at math/science would be the AP exams, which do cover things like calculus and college-level physics.
it's quite easy to excel in high school algebra & geometry, but the learning curve really shoots up once you get to multi-variable calculus/linear algebra or discrete mathematics. so you really shouldn't push a student into a math/science field that they're not interested in just because they find the high school material very easy. because once you get to college level courses, it quickly becomes a completely different story. and at that point it's vital that the student be interested in what he/she is studying, otherwise they won't have the drive to push ahead and will quickly get burnt out.
that said, the reason a student might not be interest in math/science in high school could be due to their high school math & science curricula not being challenging enough to hold their interest. if she isn't in AP classes then perhaps she should try to take some math/science courses at a local community college. that will help to expose her to what college-level maths & sciences are really like, which she might find more interesting. also, i think it's a bad idea to treat college as a trade school or vocational training. students should be free to take classes that pique their interest and follow academic pursuits that they enjoy. once you've found your niche and finish college, you can then decide where best to apply your acquired skills. otherwise you might as well go to a technical school.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know exactly how it's in the USA, but in my country (Austria, EU ;) ) high school math is like learning how to drive a car and university level math is like learning how to build a car.
You should be able to drive a car when you build one, but beyond that don't expect it to be the same.
I am currently in med school and I am thinking about quitting and doing math instead. (Med school is 6 years here and not like the pro school concept in the USA. So I don't have a BS degree yet)
And I've seen quite a few people who were great at Highschool math but quit the university within a few weeks, months top. It were the kind of people who didn't know what to do with their life, at that point. They thought, well you can earn lots of money with math so go study it.
My point: Don't push her into anything just because of her Highschool grades.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Insightful)
I am trundling along. I appear to have the required intelligence in order to complete my degree (or so I hope!) but damn is that learning curve STEEP.
Other than that, it strikes me odd that you can't come up with some viable and interesting options yourself. Basically, unless your daughter wants to be an elementary school maths teacher, she's probably going to be surrounded by it 24/7 for the rest of her life (researcher, anyone?). If she's not going to enjoy it, please, don't make her do it - and that includes cajoling her into believing it's the only thing she's possibly good at.
Instead of asking what you have here, I suggest you ask your daughter what she'd
Good luck.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Informative)
Excellent point — I myself was pressed into (natural) 'science' because math was easy to me, which in the long run (decades) turned out to be a major desaster that I am still trying to recover from.
CC.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree - my sister was nearly pressured into an engineering route at college by schooling and sponsorship deals but stuck to her guns and has a postgraduate diploma in music performance on two instruments. She's very happy - she can do the music when the work is available for her instruments, and to fill in of the time can get "technical" positions in sales/marketing for engineering companies.
I'm going to get flamed and/or marked as a troll here, but from my observations the American way doesn't cater well for that kind of thinking. Everything appears to be about excelling and celebration of success, even if that means the child has to do something they don't really like doing - as long as they are very good then the praise and peer respect makes up for it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
With respect to the job: It's typically not the outside approval, it's the pay. A lower-paying job which you enjoy more is often not feasible; either you're not qualified (or "overqualified") for the lower-paying jobs, or they're same badness, less pay, or the drop in pay you'd h
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no math section on the ACT. It is a computation section that they call math. On the GRE it is called quantitative. University mathematics programs end up with many students who think they are good at math until they hit algebra and analysis and wonder what the hell happened. They tend to go on to become math teachers.
When I was in grad school the best predictor of success in mathematics PhD programs was verbal GRE score, but nobody advises students who score perfect on the English portion of the ACT to think about being a mathematician. I wonder why that is.
She doesn't want to be an engineer or scientist. I thought the folks here would be a great group to ask
You are better off asking her what she wants to do. What is she interested in? If she has no idea then going to a large university where she'll be exposed to a number of different fields and opportunities is not a bad idea.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Interesting)
As someone who is starting a math grad program next year and got an 800 on the GRE verbal, I can't tell you how happy I am to hear you say that :-) Boasting aside, I have always felt that people miss out on the distinction between mathematics and computation. Performing mathematical operations sequentially to arrive at an answer, a la a computer, is what you do on the SAT (and I assume the ACT as well.) This is a very different feat from sitting down with a math book and trying to wrap your ahead around a theoretical concept. To me, writing a proof has always felt like far more of a right-brained activity
than a left-brained one. When I'm thinking deeply about something mathematical, the feeling I get is akin to what I experience when playing music or drawing--completely different from performing addition and subtraction. I theorize that this is why a lot of math professors are crummy arithmeticians.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Be a teacher (Score:4, Interesting)
Just because the immigrant students don't have perfect English skills doesn't mean they don't have excellent verbal skills. How they would do on a test in their native language would be more relevant.
Re:Would have to work for the MRS degree... (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder what they go for on ebay?
Item #xxxxxxxxxx
Matching set of trolls.
Look exactly the same except for hair. (Hair colors: Over Antagonizing Red, and Very Melancholy Blue)
(Bridge not included)
In need of a good home, and a lot of lightening up.
Buy it now?
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, marketing is put forward as a serious alterative to scientific pursuits, and is +4 informative. I never thought I'd see the day slashdot. News for Nerds, Stuff that matters.
Re:Be a teacher (Score:5, Funny)
With that...she really doesn't need a career...just marry a rich successful guy. Easy street the rest of her life. Higher math skills would just be an added perk.
Hell....wish I didn't have to work, and my main job was shopping. I need to find a sugar momma.
funs things to do with the degree (Score:5, Funny)
Well you could ball it up and try and shoot it into a waste basket from a distance.
Make it into a paper aeroplane.
Burn it
Origami perhaps..
Yeah, that's all the fun things I can think of doing with a degree...
Re:funs things to do with the degree (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I Agree With You Completely [urbandictionary.com].
Re:funs things to do with the degree (Score:4, Interesting)
There's a link my brother sent me awhile back with a guy with an interesting theory about why there are more men than women in advanced sciences:
Because a PhD in science is a really poor career choice, and women are usually smart enough to avoid it, while men are much more likely to be sucked into it.
The fact is that if you have the brains and discipline to get a PhD in science and become a prof at MIT or Harvard, you could probably make a *ton* more money, and quicker, and have much more job security, going into medicine, law, or business. Or you could be slave-labour grad student for 7 years, then serfdom post-doc for 6 years, slave as an untenured professor for 6 years and then be fired... er sorry, "denied tenure" and be looking for a brand new job or an entirely new career at the age of 35.
But back to the question: one really good career path is to study engineering for undergrad because of the analytics and problem-solving skills it gives you, and then go into business or law. A lot of engineers make awesome businessmen because of the way they've been trained to think by their engineering education.
Re:funs things to do with the degree (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know where you've been working, but I think middle management is full of engineers who were attracted into management by the "career promotion" but ended up sucking because management is all about the "softer" people skills, not analytical ability. Not that analytical ability doesn't hurt, but you need to be interactive, outgoing, etc..
Basically you could drop out of university half way through without taking any particular program, and still be successful in business if you just find the right combination of resources, need, and luck and put it all together at the right time.
Re:funs things to do with the degree (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, management, entrepreneurship, business development, business strategy... all of these are completely different activities requiring different skill sets. What I was talking about wasn't engineers going into management, so much as engineers using their analytical thinking to optimize business practices, finding the best place / the best way to make money in a particular competitive landscape, making strategic alliances for growth, &c.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There's a link my brother sent me awhile back with a guy with an interesting theory about why there are more men than women in advanced sciences.
http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science [greenspun.com]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The fact is that if you have the brains and discipline to get a PhD in science and become a prof at MIT or Harvard, you could probably make a *ton* more money, and quicker, and have much more job security, going into medicine, law, or business.
Yeah. Too bad that for anyone thinking about getting a PhD in science or mathematics, getting a degree in medicine or working as a lawyer is about as interesting as watching paint dry. Perhaps even less so, since at least with paint you actually have time to do something interesting.
A very good friend of mine, who worked as a very well-paid IT consultant for a huge multinational, once told me something I found interesting, that my experience has shown to be true: "there's always good jobs for those who exce
Simple (Score:5, Funny)
With her mathematical/scientific aptitude and overall intellectual capability, there's one very simple and satisfying career choice! [wikipedia.org]
Re:Simple (Score:5, Insightful)
All kidding aside, being proficient in math and science often means that you have a leg up on almost any profession. Certainly there are some fields where it won't help, but the ability to reason and figure out what the numbers are really saying can help anyone from lawyers to doctors to politicians. For the latter, it's sometimes depressing how few understand math and science.
Now I don't know the reasons why the niece doesn't want to pursue a science/math career, but it's likely because the traditionally male dominated careers are from very early on discouraged to females. It's not an overt pressure, just the insinuations from teachers and peers. Girls get oven sets. Boys get chemistry sets.
the pressure goes the other way (Score:3, Interesting)
Lots of women are being pushed HARD into science
and engineering. They seem to resist this.
Is it so hard to believe that different hormones
might result in different behavior? Why must we
judge this as a bad thing? Why must we judge the
value, even the economic value, of a person in
dollars or euros or whatever?
Maybe she'd like to stay home. Why can't she?
There won't be too many bright people in the
next generation if today's bright people focus
on for-pay careers. That's how evolution works;
it'd be good IMHO to r
For starters... (Score:2, Informative)
You could calculate how much it costs to fly to China or India, which is where you'll be going if you want a job outside of teaching.
So many things... (Score:2)
I thought the folks here would be a great group to ask: What are some creative, not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science?
Wall Street? We are talking 4 years from now so there is time for it to recover.
A math and science background is good even if she doesn't directly use it. An MBA on top of an engineering degree can take her far in this world.
Learning is fundamental (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Learning is fundamental (Score:5, Interesting)
I have no idea what current philosophy academics are interested in, so I can't accuse them of not keeping up. But if they aren't keeping up with AI, the Simulation Argument [simulation-argument.com], Bayesian theory and other such statistical things, QM's implications for the many-worlds hypothesis, and computer science research into semantics, just to pull a few things off the top of my head, they are wasting their time in several fields traditionally included under the rubric of "philosophy" (epistemology, ethics, etc.).
We still have no rock-solid answers to speak of to the old questions, but for the first time in millennia, we actually have some data for some of them... and we're only going to be collecting more. And even what little data we have has opened up more questions; "what does it mean to be human?" will begin to take on new overtones when we start asking just exactly how augmented does an ape have to be before it is "human", just how smart does an AI have to be, and, of course, is a binary definition of "human" even feasible, and if not, what is? And so on.
(I know for a fact there are philosophers interested in this. I simply don't know if they are in or out of the mainstream. Certainly they will eventually be in the mainstream.)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, but I bet you're still teaching Liebniz's Law (the identity of indiscernibles) as if it was true, whereas it is known to be false since the 1920's. Quantum statistics tells us that with as much certainty as we know anything.
I know of a couple of people who are working on formal logics that violate Liebniz's Law, but they are in the tiny minority. What the others think they are doing is not clear, because they are certainly not working on logics that have anything to do with the universe we actually
quantative finance (Score:2)
While not everyone's idea of fun, math skills can be put to good use in quantitative finance and it can be extremely lucrative. The sector has melted down for the moment but it will recover.
How about medicine? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Medicine is great if you are prepared for the huge amount of student loan debt that comes with it.
Re:How about medicine? (Score:5, Informative)
Medicine is great if you are prepared for the huge amount of student loan debt that comes with it.
There are a variety of ways to deal with that.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Well, the salary you'll get is more than enough to cover the debt. But, along the way, you'll get brainwashed about how "doctors don't make what they used to" by people who will then get in their Mercedes and drive home, never realizing that they make 6x the median income and many people can't even afford their services.
Re: (Score:2)
Also, Case Western is (according to Wikipedia) ranked in the 40s by US News and report. Now, I'm not saying if that means anything, if the education there is any less or more valuable in terms of quality, etc etc etc, but the competitiveness factor is not at all the same as a top 10/top 20, which would be a big factor in cost and scholarship.
Don't get too excited. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Don't get too excited. (Score:5, Interesting)
Absolutely, and so many people lose perspective on that. My philosophy is to aim for the top, minus one or two "points". In other words people who push themselves to the max seem to end up miserable.
Don't sell yourself short, by any means... Aim high high HIGH -- but be realistic.
Whatever that means!
Re:Don't get too excited. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't get too excited. (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
For what it's worth my philosophy isn't to push yourself to the max, but just generally upward and see where it takes you. It landed me at MIT building robots and I'm about as far from miserable as I can get. Taking your chances and shooting high doesn't mean pushing yourself to the max all the time, just sometimes. And if you didn't do it sometimes how could you ever know what you're capable of?
Re:Don't get too excited. (Score:5, Interesting)
This, this, this. Though most of the time if she doesn't really want to go there, they'll catch it in the admissions process - but occasionally someone slips through b/c they did a good job of faking it for their parents' sake. I saw one of those people have an honest-to-god breakdown in her advisor's office.
Re:Don't get too excited. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, no, no. I went to MIT, and had a blast. So did my roommate who majored in Music: the alternative and classical music expertise among a group of such intense people gets weird, but can be an amazing wealth of knowledge, and with Harvard and BU and the other Boston colleges, the music scene is a blast for students.
All the Ivy League schools have great opportunities to meet wonderful, brilliant people and learn from them, or teach them. Writing, art, history, nd even archaeogy can use good math skills. The question shouldn't be 'how do we get her to study science', but 'what does she want to do'.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
MIT is the sort of unpleasant experience that should be reserved for those who genuinely want it.
I did the MIT undergrad thing followed by basic science career path (PhD, post-doc - computational biology). I haven't yet made it to the tenured faculty position so maybe my views will eventually change - but I've been shocked by how hard it is to make a living off a career in basic science.
From what I've seen, trying to make a basic science career work is like trying to make an acting career work. There's the superstars that everyone hears about who are doing extremely well for themselves and there are th
It won't always be as easy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Mastering the advanced concepts in Math and science is a lot more involved then High School. So if there is no interest, brilliance now could translate into mediocrity.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
On the other hand.. the lack of interest could also be a partial result of the High School level math being dull and uninteresting.
A student may be lead to believe that all math is just as dull, simple, and tedious, as their immediate experience. And thus prejudice their view of the field as a whole...
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Mastering the advanced concepts in Math and science is a lot more involved then High School. So if there is no interest, brilliance now could translate into mediocrity.
THIS.
It's about your reference frame. High school math and science are piss-poor indicators of both difficulty and coolness. The tragedy is never that an originally interested student loses interest or gets bored due to college math/science. It is that the stuff gets exponentially more interesting (as you start doing REAL math that can serve as a REAL tool to understand the universe around you) while at the same time getting progressively more involved.
I won't say that it gets more difficult (it do
Sports statistician? (Score:3, Funny)
Baseball statistician popped into my mind immediately, if she likes sports.
There's also a lot of number crunching in politics, too, and there's the potential of doing quite a bit of good for society. Or evil. You know, whatever she's into.
So... (Score:5, Insightful)
You could explain to her that neither math nor science in general is a `nerdy' profession, that she will outgrow her adolescence and that she will very soon hardly remember the names of her high school classmates. That there are peers out there to be had that are considerably more valuable than those who might have instilled in her that fear of nerdiness. That, in fact, she should do whatever it is she may want to do.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty good advice. Although I'd had a strong interest in computers from at least the age of 10 (and math since 5), reading those career counseling guides with pictures of nerdy-looking programmers in horn-rimmed glasses made me fear what my life would be like if I followed that path. So, instead, I wandered around in the wilderness for a few years, trying this and that and discovering what I wasn't good at. Finally, I returned to computers and it was quite a revelation.
I've no idea what'd be good in your case. Maybe just encourage her to keep an open mind and explore the possibilities.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Get a Facebook account. You won't be able to remember who they are, but you will have a list of the names and what they're doing every five minutes.
Science isn't always that nerdy... (Score:4, Insightful)
not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science
There are some areas of scientific research that really aren't all that terribly nerdy. What are her hobbies? If there is something that she does for fun, she may be able to find a scientist that works on making it better...
Not all components of scientific research happen in traditional lab environments.
Ask her what she likes to do. (Score:5, Insightful)
You mentioned what she's good at. Try to find out what she likes and see if there's a match there. Sure, she's got the potential, but if she's not happy doing it - even if she follows it through, she's doing it for the wrong reasons. She'll probably not be happy doing it.
...if she has any clue (Score:5, Insightful)
The tough thing for high schoolers trying to choose a college, major, FUTURE, etc. is that they usually have no *clue* what they'd like to do in the real world, because they haven't had much contact with it.
The vast majority of science and math education for a high schooler is learning how to jump through mental hoops and regurgitate information to pass exams. There's a big gap between studying a subject in school and *using* the skills related to a subject in a job somewhere.
A lot of job satisfaction lies in working with people you respect, who respect you for playing an important role in fulfilling whatever goal the company has. The tasks you perform should also ideally fall into a comfort zone where you're using your talents without being in way over your head.
I tend to think most kids will do best with a broad education with as many internships, etc. as possible, so they can try out different kinds of work environments.
The highschooler in question might end up using math in her job -- if she's good at it, that part will go easily -- and may well be extremely interested if she's interested in the goal she's actually accomplishing. Why would she need to be interested in jumping through hoops?
Women is science and games industry (Score:5, Insightful)
As do most women in programming and the games industry which is why I find it ridiculous to pander to all this women in the games industry bullshit.
Let her do what she wants.
Re:Women is science and games industry (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed. If she wants to not use her math skills, that is entirely up to her. Why do you want to push her? One of my best friends took part in math olympiads and won - these days, she does fashion designing, and is quite happy doing that.
That's entirely her choice, and why not?
Re:Women is science and games industry (Score:5, Interesting)
That is always good advice, but remember, at that age it is difficult to see the value of science. It is difficult to understand, even for college seniors in technical majors (math, natural sciences, comp.sci..etc), the immense benefit of being someone who understands how the world works. It usually takes a little sit-back and thinking to come to grips with the fact that you are proving things about the very nature of logic itself, or modelling the universe at levels the human mind did not really evolve to deal with. Anybody capable of doing science(esp at a high level), and enjoying this incredible meaningfulness and understanding (read:enlightenment) that comes as a result.. those people should be at least encouraged to pursue it. No harm could come from an honest suggestion. She may owe him so much for it later.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But she quite obviously doesn't want to do that. Don't get me wrong, anything we can do to encourage more people, women or men to enjoy science, programming, physics, etc is great.
However I don't see any value in forcing people into the field if they quite obviously don't want to do it. I'd r
NASA would be a nice destination (Score:2)
Seriously? (Score:2)
"She doesn't want to be an engineer..."
"...not too nerdy professions"
... and 'engineer' or 'technical manager at NASA' is what you come up with? Really???? :O
Whooooosh! [xkcd.com]
For a more serious answer: (Score:3, Interesting)
psychology (Score:5, Insightful)
Digital Signal Processing? (Score:4, Interesting)
I was pretty gifted in mathematics when I was young, to the point I would easily win school-wide maths competitions despite not working and having skipped a grade. I never worked much on it anymore until my natural aptitudes weren't enough to keep up during high school (I must point out that I'm French and not American), and I got to college (CS) without even knowing what a complex number was or what the sigma sign represented. Then I dropped out of high school for numerous reasons, one being that I performed too poorly due to my lack of interest and investment, particularly in mathematics.
However at that time I had an idea which sounded pretty damn exciting, namely a spectrograph and spectrogram synthesiser, so I started this project [sf.net] and picked up C and digital signal processing, which progressively involved more and more mathematics until I would know everything about complex numbers, Fourier transforms and negative frequencies and would start scratching maddeningly long equations on sheets of paper.
Before I picked that up I thought maths were some sort of pointless intellectual masturbation that only really served mad scientists who write papers about crap like string theory, but when I found out how it relates to all that is multimedia, and even to our senses of sight and audition, it all became very alive and interesting, and the point is, with that sort of stuff you can do anything you want. You can make your own synthesiser and make music out of it, you can create your own visual effects, or you can work for a space agency's contractor and work on systems that will be sent in space, probably a handful of other stuff that could be "creative and not too nerdy". Not too sure what "not too nerdy" involves..
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Duhhh!!! (Score:2)
I got a perfect score on my SAT's and ACT's. Graduated in the top 5 of graduate class at Cornell (1987) with a double Masters in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering.
I've been a highly paid male prostitute ever since. No kidding. Just ask my pim..err boss. I earn (well over) six figures a year and all I have to do is take it up the ass 5 days a week (occasionally 6)....
Tell your niece to become an entertainer or learn how to play a sport well (if she's black). She'll make more and have a hell of a lo
some ideas (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I would also suggest architecture. Its sort of like structural engineering, only more artsy. The difference is that between the Greeks (great architects) and the Romans (great engineers).
I'm not sure what isn't considered nerdy about the rest of those options.
Is that the right question? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the question to ask is what would bring her the most joy, which might be the thing that challenges her. She should try a little of everything, and find the thing that engages her, makes her feel alive and driven.
I'd suggest looking into Howard Gardeners Multiple Intelligences writing to get an idea of the scope of the situation.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Now that's just unrealistic nonsense.
People need to find a appropriate mix of a career that they can both enjoy, AND one that will also allow them to support themselves, pay back their student loans, and build a future for themselves. It's part of being an adult.
Simply put: You gotta eat. How many people do you think find their maximum joy as tax accountants?
I like to snowboard. It's a lot of fun. That doesn't mean I expect to make
Whatever she wants as long as it pays the bills (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously. It's her life. As long as it's legal, ethical, and either it pays the bills, it doesn't matter if she's a garbage collector or a business tycoon. Yes, it may be better for society if she were to somehow use her talents, but if her interests lie elsewhere support her in her chosen path.
Give her your love, your emotional support, and to the extent you can and she needs it, practical/cash support.
Now, if you'd said she's trying to make up her mind between a math/engineering profession and one that doesn't require those skills, then I would strongly recommend steering her in the direction that her talents lie. But from your submission, it sounds like she's made up her mind.
she can do knitting (Score:2)
you know, fractal scarves and tesseract mittens with quasicrystal fabric patterns
Exhibit A (Score:2)
Let her decide (Score:2)
Visual Effects (Score:2)
People knowledgeable/with degrees in math and science find themselves in high demand in a field where you spend an entire year trying to figure out how to properly generate and render the materials composing of Iron Man's suit.
Whatever she wants (Score:2)
It's more than grades; what are her interests? (Score:2)
You don't get into a good school like MIT with just straight-A's and perfect test scores. You need to establish that you're a leader with real character and motivation. Your extra-curricular activities and your choice of electives speak highly here.
As to what to do, that's for her to decide. She merely needs to be exposed to the options. Encourage her to follow whatever path she likes, but to consider schools with good engineering/math/science options for her to be exposed to later.
To more directly answ
Just about anything - here's why. (Score:2)
If she has aptitude for math, science and engineering, she probably has, in broader terms, aptitude for logic, reasoning and (maybe) critical thinking.
Those general things are going to give her an edge in just about any job that requires any kind of thinking. So she can choose just about any path, as far as I can see - her intellect will be useful even outside of math, science or engineering.
(I'm saying this as a frustratingly rational "quick learner" who scored well, though not perfectly, on the SAT, then
let her decide (Score:2)
Well I can sympathize with your niece, as probably many here can. In high school and college, I did extremely well in writing and English classes. More than one teacher suggested that I take up journalism or some other form of writing as a career. But the truth is that I hate writing. I mean, I have no problem with the occasional Slashdot post, email, or blog entry. But to sit down and plan out a structured approach to a written piece or spend a few hours bashing out a draft... yuck. I can do it, it comes n
I'm good at math, but don't like it. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty good at math, but don't particularly like it. Also, science is cool and I like reading about it, but it has always looked like a pretty dreary profession.
Basically, though, math skills are indicative of structured, logical thought. That is useful everywhere.
Don't push her into something just because she's good at it. Let her do whatever she wants. If she's smart, she'll probably be fine.
Question for you first (Score:2)
Getting to *your* question though, if she got a perfect score in math, but hates math, she's probably a good candidate for theater or music. When I was a film major, I knew a lot of weirdos like your niece.
quantitative subjects (Score:2)
Some of the fairly lucrative occupations for quantitative people are:
actuarial science
anything involving statistical inference
quantitative finance
Whose choice is this? (Score:2, Insightful)
You are implicitly assuming here that your niece WANTS to make use of these things in her profession, which is a pretty bad thing to assume. Why don't you ask her what she wants?
I've experienced this constantly in my life. Relatives of all sorts tell me "You should become a doctor" or "You should become a radiologist" or whatever else. I turn around and say back to them, "Hmm, soun
Subect areas (Score:2)
This may be off-topic, but what about those who do well in other areas, which aren't their necessary majors? Should they switch, or go with what they "want" to do?
Mythbuster. (Score:2)
Not necessarily working for the show, but doign the various things they do. Design, destruction, whatever.
Why? (Score:2)
So she's good at math. There's nothing that forces her to go into something math-related.
Tell her to follow her dreams. If her dreams happen to intersect with her skills, which also happen to intersect with profitability, she's be rich, successful, and happy. If they don't, you might have to cut out the "rich" or "successful" part.
Why do you want her to go into math or science if she has no interest? What makes you think she'll put the effort into something she finds deathly dull?
Sounds like me (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a woman who aced the math ACT but didn't feel like studying math or science. I was into foreign languages. So now I have a bachelor's in Spanish and a master's in French literature, and I'm a web developer. Go figure.
What might have convinced me to study one of the hard sciences is seeing people actually at work using them. If I had met any pharmaceutical researchers or civil engineers or software developers and seen what they do at work every day, I might have found it more interesting. As it was, I had no frame of reference for working with math or science, and therefore no interest.
um, anything? (Score:3, Insightful)
Testing well, not wanting to work as an engineer or scientist (good luck landing a good research position if that rumor starts getting around)... if you're lucky you have a future medical doctor on your hands.
My sister was the same way: intuitively good at science, but socially programmed to not like it (is this more common in women?). It looks like she's going to study medicine. After having multiple family members, then friends, then professors tell her that she was good at scientific thinking she gradually veered towards a field she could both enjoy and excel in. I think forcing her to study a hard science would have been a big mistake.
Just tell her that everyone changes their major (more or less true) and to take her time deciding what to do with her life.
How does she know? (Score:4, Insightful)
Her school experience with math is probably limited to figuring (arithmetic, algebra, calculus), which is nothing like what real mathematicians do (geometrical proofs are closer-- if geometry was her favorite math class then she is fonder of "real mathematics" than figuring, a good sign). Similarly, a career in the sciences is hard to extrapolate from a typical high school science course. In both cases, she has probably yet to see the creative side of science and math, which is where all the fun is. I'm a bit too tired to think of concrete demonstrations for her, but I might say to her, "Look, you have a talent, and life is smoother if you're working in a field in which you have talent. Of course, if you don't actually like the field then talent won't help, but try it and keep an open mind." You might try arranging a meeting with a research scientist, mathematician, or engineer. (There are also high school level competitions which could be fun, although they do look geeky.)
Of course, if she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it-- but I hear a lot about the subtle pressures which keep the male-female ratios in physics and engineering high, and so I wonder if her reluctance is due to personal taste or peer pressure (or maybe even some teacher one time told her she was bad at math, and it stuck with her regardless of current successes).
Art (Score:3, Interesting)
Okay, now that everyone here is done laughing, let me explain the logic.
I'm working my way through a CS degree. The math classes are interesting, but the CS stuff is all 'we'll pretend this is how theory works out in the real world, while pretending to teach you how the theory works in the labs.' Interesting, but not particularly useful except when teaching. Somehow, without any art background other then some highschool photography, I got into a Cyberart cross discipline class. I expected to be the hired coder, there, just working on someone else's idea. Turned out to be the best class I've ever taken.A year later, I'm working for the Art Department, writing code for 3 different grants and two class projects.
And no, CS wasn't a pre-requisite for any of these projects.
stewarts "letters to a mathematician" (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Econ (Score:5, Insightful)
Graduate level economics is almost indistinguishable from graduate level math (or physics)
This is not true (and fortunately, thank god, functional analysis while applicable in theory, has little to say about relevant real world economics). People who say econ is no different from math, obviously haven't taken a serious pure math course. Graduate economics is somewhat technical and quantitative but is not rigorous or formal enough to be confused with a branch of mathematics (unless you take an advanced theory course, which is not representative of the field as a whole). At the same time, there is not enough dynamical systems in it to be confused with physics (I took a bunch of econ courses, and didn't have to solve one differential equation). But yes, econ a very quantitative, and so math,stat, or physics majors could feel at very comfortable in an econ program.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
(I took a bunch of econ courses, and didn't have to solve one differential equation)
It is very easy to get an undergraduate degree in econ without knowing anything more than algebra and some statistics... BUT that doesn't mean differential equations aren't involved, it just means your profs didn't go the extra step and show you the calculus happening behind all those wonderful graphs. And honestly, it means you didn't get your money's worth.
If you took graduate level econ courses without touching differential equations... I really don't know what to say. For any degree in economics, one wo
Economics is little more than numerology (Score:3, Insightful)
Hang on. When did they put away the tea leaves and numerology and start putting together working models of very complex systems like portions of an economy? You'll be telling me there are economists that consider non-linear relationships between things next.
Anecdote: The leading Australian economist's answer to a low wool price was to kill a lot of sheep to make wool scarce. That actually happened. A lot
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
ECON 481 Introduction to Mathematical Statistics (5) NW
Probability, generating functions; the d-method, Jacobians, Bayes theorem; maximum likelihoods, Neyman-Pearson, efficiency, decision theory, regression, correlation, bivariate normal. Prerequisite: STAT/ECON 311; either MATH 136 or MATH 126 with either MATH 308 or MATH 309. Recommended: MATH 324. Offered: jointly with CS&SS/STAT 481; A.
Look at those pre-reqs:
Math 126/136 - 3rd quarter of calculus or honors 3rd quarter of calculus - Introduction to Taylor polynomials and Taylor series, vector geometry in three dimensions,introduction to multivariable differential calculus, double integrals in Cartesian and polar coordinates.
Math 308 - MATH 308 Matrix Algebra with Applications (3) NW
Systems of linear equations, vector spaces, matrices, subspaces, orthogonality, least squares, eigenvalues, eigenvectors, applications. For students in engineering, mathematics, and the sciences.
MATH 309 Linear Analysis (3) NW
First order systems of linear differential equations, Fourier series and partial differential equations, and the phase plane.
MATH 324 Advanced Multivariable Calculus I (3) NW
Topics include double and triple integrals, the chain rule, vector fields, line and surface integrals. Culminates in the theorems of Green and Stokes, along with the Divergence Theorem.
I really don't mean to sound like a snob, but that stuff doesn't strike me as particularly esoteric. I was led to believe that in the US system, the first digit of the unit code typically represents the year it is taken at. Taylors series and multivariable calculus is high school maths. Seriously, the chain rule is introduced at third year? Fourier series is something you should have a handle on in high school physics (fundamental wave behaviour) and have codified in first year. Third year mathematics
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Most economist get their money by teaching and writing books, or put up a lot of speaking engagements. In that case you will need to go all the way to a PhD in Economics. A master's degree is not enough.
Re:MIT (Score:4, Funny)
(Bernake and many federal reserve bank chiefs hail from MIT)
Wait, I thought you said you had a stellar economics program...
Re: (Score:2)
it has to look good, make the client happy, and stand up.
Same could be said of a prostitute, although the standing is optional.