Mars Rovers Facing Budget Cuts [Updated] 327
BUL2294 notes a CNN article reporting that the Mars Rovers program at NASA is facing budget cuts of $4 million for this year and $8 million for fiscal 2009. This will mean job cuts; and in all likelihood Spirit will be put in "hibernation mode," to be reactivated when or if future funding becomes available."
Update: 03/29 20:02 GMT by KD : NASA has rescinded the memo to the JPL threatening budget cuts, and is now saying that no rovers will be shut down.
Update: 03/29 20:02 GMT by KD : NASA has rescinded the memo to the JPL threatening budget cuts, and is now saying that no rovers will be shut down.
Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Priorities? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe Next Year? (Score:2, Insightful)
How much does Spirit cost? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Offshoots from the space program improve the lives of billions of people.
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides, I like the Utah landscape, and I'm not even Mormon.
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides, people tend to believe that more money is spent on space science then actually is, so it's a nice visible way to pretend to be cutting back on government spending.
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
That won't even keep pace with inflation. Real inflation (not the CPI bs that the government hands out every year, which excludes stuff like fuel) is running between 10% and 12%. Or are you planning on doing space missions without any energy costs, and getting all your supplies from suppliers that don't have to contend with energy increases?
To quote The West Wing (Score:5, Insightful)
Understatement of the year... (Score:3, Insightful)
All they've done is start a new age of McCarthyism, suspend habeas corpus, agree to formally demolish our borders with Mexico and Canada, extend the powers of the executive branch beyond the oversight of congress, lied under oath or refused to even testify about the terrorist attacks under oath, wiretapped American citizens who are 'guilty' of receiving 'suspicious' phone calls, run the economy into the ground... caused two to three trillion dollars of damage to our economy for a war that was both illegal and unnecessary, which also caused the price of oil to quintuple, and probably caused the sharpest devaluation of the American dollar since the depression...
You say the word "war" like it doesn't mean much.
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, did you really expect to find anyone agreeing with you here? I mean come on.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:5, Insightful)
The Bush administration is basically robbing this country blind to fund their war and even high-profile programs are falling victim.
And the really sad part of all this is that the draining of money out of everything is only just beginning. We have tens of thousands of veterans who will need expensive, long-term care and more joining those ranks every day. We have interest building on the money that has been borrowed so far, while we continue to borrow to fund the war. It's total madness.
Only a madman can stand at a podium, look America in the eye, and tell us that we are strong, our economy is strong, and we are winning some imaginary war on "terra".
In Space Nobody Can Hear A Brain Fart (Score:5, Insightful)
In any case, I'd think it more productive to hibernate the two rovers alternately, 20% of the time each. Or even 25% each, to make up for the additional shut-down and start-up costs. Both regions get 75%+ of the exploration and science done with only about half the ground personnel at the consoles and performing analyses. Hopefully some one or more group like The Planetary Society or the Mars Society will collect donations to make up for the cut.
We hatessss adminimonstersssss, don't we my precioussss roverssss?
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever hear of Velcro or Microwave Ovens? What about Tang? Ever owned a cell phone? Used the Internet lately?
NASA played a significant role in the popularization/development of all of those technologies. It's a fair assessment to say that none of those technologies would be anywhere near as ubiquitous as they are today if it wasn't for the role NASA played. It's not a question of whether you'll ever go to Mars yourself. It's a question of what new technologies are being developped, or commercialized, as a result of the space program.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Applied research is easier to predict. We sink money into figuring out how to do things that improve the human condition better, faster, and cheaper, and it's going to pay off in the shorter term. But is the problem with the state of the human condition really one of not having the know-how to make it better, or is it simply not having the will? And what do we do when we run out of ways of doing things better, faster, and cheaper, and we have to figure out whole new ways of doing things? If we've ignored basic research, we're screwed.
The thing is, as much as the overspecialized would have you believe otherwise, science is a vast web, a framework of inter-connected ideas and techniques. Research in one area can pay unexpected dividends in another. Do you honestly think that by studying Martian geochemistry, we aren't learning things that apply to Earth as well? You don't think we've learned things about materials science by sending these probes to Mars? Solar cells that work in low Martian sunlight, there's something that'll never come in handy here on Earth... Those are just two examples anyone could think of off the top of their heads.
I think the most important point is that there is no way for us to truly understand the way our own planet works until we put that understanding into a larger framework of how planets work in general. Whether you believe in anthropogenic climate change or not, I'm sure that you can agree that really understanding how our planet works could improve the lives of billions of people.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sad day (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:5, Insightful)
There was a chance to clean up the future. Now the only way is to collapse the economy and rebuild. preferably with a new government first.
anyone want to start a revolution with me?
Re:Sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep, those Democratic bastards John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson nearly killed our space program by underfunding Gemini and Apollo, but the Republican Richard Nixon did a swell job of building on the success of Apollo with ambitious, well funded follow-on programs, which is why we have a thriving lunar colony and burgeoning orbital industries today.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:5, Insightful)
The main problem with revolution is finding enough people you can trust after the conflict. If you win then there is all this power to be distributed... and if you lose then there is a wicked manhunt.
In my entire life I have met two people I would trust enough to rise up with and take the consequences (win or lose) afterwards.
Back on-topic: Space exploration joins progress in art and literature on my list of indicators that a civilization is truly prospering. Space exploration, much like astronomy, lacks the utilitarian nature of many other branches of science, and I have always considered it to be one of the brightest signs of our progress as thinking beings. Our continuing withdrawal from funding space related endeavors strikes me as a sad indicator of where we are headed.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:2, Insightful)
"The president carries the biggest burden, obviously..." - Dick Cheney
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:4, Insightful)
Here is what I have been seeing said a few times that makes some sense to me:
One thing that IS causing a problem is the decrease in the value of the dollar. It is cheaper to sell American products like Wheat and Corn overseas than keep it in the USA, which means Americans have to pony up extra-cash for stuff so that it makes sense for farmers to keep their products in the USA. But the value of the dollar is based on how much other countries trust keeping their money in USD, and with all the economic indicators the way they are, and the banks being in trouble the most, overseas banks are thinking that keeping their assets in a currency that is NOT the USD is a better idea. How much that has to do with the war I don't know.
As long as we don't go back to the gold standard I'm good. Because the moment someone figures out how to make gold out of a less expensive material we are all screwed. If I can make something with 79 electrons, 79 protons and 79 neutrons out of my basement we will have a real crisis on our hands.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:2, Insightful)
Dude, if we could convince "The Man" that a revolution would start during the commercial break, he'd be so scared there wouldn't be any more commercials!
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:4, Insightful)
Was it due to diminishing returns on the rovers? Is the money genuinely better spent on what the article says they'll be spending it on... next year's new rover?
I'd imagine that $8 mil is a tiny bit of their annual budget and you'd think you'd want to put it towards something you already have parked on another planet and you know works. But then, I'm about the least qualified guy in the world to guess about those things.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:3, Insightful)
And then, of course, there's all of the direct spin-offs that come from research done in the space program, and I'm not just talking tempurpedic!
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Understatement of the year... (Score:3, Insightful)
It is true that the new McCarthyism is less visible, but I believe that's only because it's very difficult to call someone a conspirator and get away with it. If they don't like you, they'll just forget to validate your press pass and cause you to lose your job, or perhaps expose your wife's secret identity through surrogates in the media...
No one knows how many US citizens are being held, because they are secret proceedings done by the military with no oversight, where the accused has no access to view the evidence against them, since it is also secret. This is the kind of thing that caused the Revolutionary War. According to the military, 150 detainees have died while in custody since 2001.
Right.
Your comments on the middle east echo that of liberals, in the true sense of the word, who have no memory of the past. Saddam Hussein was an American pawn who overstepped his bounds in Kuwait, and we didn't assassinate him because the first Bush Administration at least recognized that there is no exit strategy in Iraq, much like other oppressive Islamist regimes we have supported on and off since the 1960s. (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Egypt...) Our purpose is not to spread freedom, else we wouldn't be selling arms to the Shah of Iran in the 70s, or to Saddam and Iran (in secret) in the 80s, and to Saudi Arabia (40 billion since 1990!). Our purpose is to maintain power in a region which holds vast natural resources.
You've fallen into the idea that there exists an entity known as "them" and another known as "us." The only way for fundamental human rights to continue existing is through law which is equally and universally applied, no matter how grotesque you think their actions or politics may be. The correct, legal way to approach the terrorist attacks of September 11th was to find evidence for the crime (remember, acts of war can only be committed by states or breakaway territories), trying the suspects, and then sentencing them. This is why we have the UN and the World Court.
Of course, if you have more faith in military might than the law, you're more than welcome to join the ranks of Stalin, Mussolini, Chairman Mao, and other glorious historical figures.
Re:Canada also hates its Space Program (Score:4, Insightful)
First, for political reasons there are a lot of reasons to say no. Canada WILL be seeing a Federal election in the next six months or so. Selling off the company undermines a lot of the current government's platform. It looks bad on a national security front. It looks bad on an arctic sovereignty front. It looks bad on a selling out Canadian interests to the Americans front (which never goes over well with the voters). It looks bad on a public money front seeing as the Canadian government just finished bankrolling a lot of the research and tech that is making the company an attractive purchase.
The second reason the sale might not go through is that it might be illegal. The united states is basically the only first world country in the world that has not signed the Ottawa Convention on Landmines. Big-ass international treaty, famously brokered by Canada, that bans the production and use of anti-personnel landmines among other things. Now, seeing as the company trying to buy MDA is one of the largest landmine manufacturers in the world. Under the terms of the treaty, it may actually be illegal for Canada to approve any sale or business involving them.
In addition, many of the engineers and big brains that work for MDA are threatening to quit if the sale goes through. Plenty of them could be pulling in larger paycheques in the States already except that they don't want to build weapons or support companies that do.
So, very little advantage in Canada for the government to approve the sale. And the only real downside to not approving it is pissing off a few of Bush's friends. On the other hand, he is down to a few months now and it is looking like bending over for his administration now won't score many brownie points with whoever replaces him.
ag prices (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, all legals here, we are doing the jobs that...what was your point again?
It's very similar in most of farming, between local governments upping property taxes, that you can't avoid, cost of production, that you can't avoid-diesel, propane, electricity, bought in water, machinery, yada yada, salt to taste depending on type of farming, there's not much left to cut that you have any control over except labor. It's like they are doing all they can to destroy domestic agriculture on the family sized model, and the bulk of those subsidies you hear about go to those huge corporate conglomerates.
You can compete by being very small and in niche markets, or by being hugemongous and being part of a corporate enterprise, anything in between-the traditional professional family farm- is getting wonky.
NAFTA screwed over Mexican campesino farmers big time, put *millions* out of their own little farm jobs, drove them north in desperation, then here, caused a severe lowering of wages for existing workers. Remember way back a long time ago, Cesar Chavez, head of the farm workers union? HE called the illegals the ultimate wage lowering scab labor. It's like it was designed on purpose to turn family farms in both nations into FarmAgco International, Inc corporate farms. Gee, what a coincidence how that worked out, same as like what happened to them screwing over domestic manufacturing and now white collar IT, it's all designed to make the top 1% wealthier, that's it, that's the sum total of US economic policy in any direction you want to look at, just like now it is going to bail out the billionaire investment bankers.
Re:Look again (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:2, Insightful)
This is all well off the topic of NASA's rovers, but this should be corrected.
While the person in the office of the President makes a good scapegoat, the President does not create the budget or single-handedly start a war. Please, note that making this distinction does not make any judgment of the budget, wars, or anything else. It only seeks to provide you with the correct target for your displeasure.
Both parties, and whoever is elected the next President, seek only to get more powerful from our greed. We have this problem with our budget deficit, and yet no one complains loudly about the silliness that is the "rebate" to stimulate the economy. All I hear is a collective "When's it gonna be deposited?".
We are collectively a stupid, lazy, greedy people, and elect those who evidence those qualities the best. And they do a good job furthering stupidity, laziness, and greed.
If you want someone to blame for the Iraq War, the budget deficit, the financial crisis of this decade that has yet to peak, look only in the mirror or your parents mirror or your neighbor's mirror. That is where the blame lies for our problems.
Back to the rovers. They are cool, but maybe it is time to get something newer built and deployed.
Re:Simple solutions for NASA (Score:5, Insightful)
About the casualties(drifting slightly off-topic) I think the most alarming are the psychological effects. [nytimes.com]
There may be 4000 soldiers dead, but those returning home after an utterly meaningless time spent in a country thousands of miles away, are the ones tearing my heart apart. It is one thing to lose a limb or an eye. That is terrible, but at least you can try to move on with your life. But to have your body whole and yet be wandering like a madman (or literally as a madman) with a gun at night, in the streets of your home town, because some ABSOLUTE MORON decided to send you to war with a secular country that had nothing whatsoever to do with us.. I think that is the saddest thing in the world. My heart goes out to all the people we killed, and all the soldiers we lost, and all the money that could have saved millions and done miracles in supporting science and human welfare. War is such a bitch.
Re:Look again (Score:3, Insightful)
But if you think about it, paying someone under the table is almost like paying them 2 or 3 dollars less an hour even if they are making the same wages as the regular employees. Social security tax doesn't get paid, unemployment and workers comp doesn't get paid. The employer's matching in the SS tax, and so one done get paid. Some states fund portions of their schools with payroll tax that doesn't get paid. It adds up to quite a bit. Granted, not all of what I listed is paid by the employer so what the employer would save will be different but still significant.